On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 15:32:15, Ian Goddard <ianng@austonley.org.uk> wrote:
On 15/08/2020 11:15, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
in Britain suffixes like Jr. are far less common than in the USA
It depends where you're looking. I've come across them, especially in
manorial records. What's not necessarily clear is whether you're
looking at a parental relationship, a wider family relationship such as
cousins, two people of more remote, if any, kinship who just happen to
have the same name or, in really pathological situations, siblings. I
started off assuming the first but now I'm more wary.
Yes, I've occasionally found it, but often in contexts where, as you
say, it's just that two people in the area have the same name (though
of course that often _is_ father and son); also, it's rarely clear
whether the person adding the suffix is even a member of the family, or
just someone adding it - possibly using it as the Latin comparative
("[the] older" or "[the] younger") only.
Though less common than it once was, I get the impression that the USA
custom _is_ normally family-applied - even to the extent that the son
is sometimes referred to (and addressed) as Junior rather than his
actual name. (Seems to be only sons - I've not come across it for
daughters, though I daresay it occurs.) I've not encountered it, except
in families with US connections, in Britain - though I guess it
probably does occur.
One well known example in the UK (well known if you know some organic chemistry, anyway) is that of William Henry Perkin senior and William
Henry Perkin junior -- father and son, both very distinguished. I think
the usual abbreviations are sen. and jun., not Sr. and Jr., but now that we're so much influenced by what the Americans do that's probably
changing (or changed).
On 18/08/2020 18:45, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
One well known example in the UK (well known if you know some organic >>chemistry, anyway) is that of William Henry Perkin senior and William
Henry Perkin junior -- father and son, both very distinguished. I
think the usual abbreviations are sen. and jun., not Sr. and Jr., but
now that we're so much influenced by what the Americans do that's
probably changing (or changed).
I know there are examples in the UK but it tends to be amongst the
"upper classes". It is far more common in the US and more "ordinary"
people.
Then there was the version used in (especially boarding) schools, major
and minor. I think this was used where two boys (don't know about
girls!) had the same surname, regardless of whether they were related or
not. (I don't know what happened when there were three: I have a vague >thought that they might have used minimus, but that might be my
imagination.)
It happened once while I was at a Scottish boarding school in the 60s.
Major, minor, and the youngest was "terts", short for "tertius", Latin
for "third".
On 22/08/2020 08:56, John Armstrong wrote:Odd, as maior and minor don't mean first and second, but bigger and
It happened once while I was at a Scottish boarding school in the 60s.
Major, minor, and the youngest was "terts", short for "tertius", Latin
for "third".
An uncle-by-marriage of my mother's had a brother whose forenames were
John Middleton Tertius and he was known generally as Tertius. Their
father's forenames were John Middleton as I presume their grandfather's
were also.
On Sat, 15 Aug 2020 at 15:32:15, Ian Goddard <ianng@austonley.org.uk>
wrote:
On 15/08/2020 11:15, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
in Britain suffixes like Jr. are far less common than in the USA
It depends where you're looking. I've come across them, especially in >>manorial records. What's not necessarily clear is whether you're
looking at a parental relationship, a wider family relationship such as >>cousins, two people of more remote, if any, kinship who just happen to
have the same name or, in really pathological situations, siblings. I >>started off assuming the first but now I'm more wary.
Yes, I've occasionally found it, but often in contexts where, as you
say, it's just that two people in the area have the same name (though of >course that often _is_ father and son); also, it's rarely clear whether
the person adding the suffix is even a member of the family, or just
someone adding it - possibly using it as the Latin comparative ("[the]
older" or "[the] younger") only.
[...]
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 10:57:25, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> >wrote:
On 22/08/2020 08:56, John Armstrong wrote:Odd, as maior and minor don't mean first and second, but bigger and
It happened once while I was at a Scottish boarding school in the 60s.
Major, minor, and the youngest was "terts", short for "tertius", Latin
for "third".
smaller (which usually mapped OK, as the older boy usually _was_
bigger), and why I had a vague feeling minimus (smallest) might have
been used when there was a third.
Was he the third after a father and grandfather, or the third to the
An uncle-by-marriage of my mother's had a brother whose forenames were
John Middleton Tertius and he was known generally as Tertius. Their >>father's forenames were John Middleton as I presume their grandfather's >>were also.
same parents? (I have one ancestor* called Thirzen, who was the
thirteenth [surviving - fourteenth altogether I think] child, and I like
to think the parents were just too tired to think of another name for
her.
*not direct ascendant, a sibling of one [so a child of one]; is that
still an ancestor?)
I have my great-uncle's father in law, Septimus Ryott. His elder
siblings all had "normal" names so it looks like they had run out of
choices by the time he arrived. He had a younger sister called Cenete.
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 10:57:25, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
On 22/08/2020 08:56, John Armstrong wrote:Odd, as maior and minor don't mean first and second, but bigger and
It happened once while I was at a Scottish boarding school in the 60s.
Major, minor, and the youngest was "terts", short for "tertius", Latin
for "third".
smaller (which usually mapped OK, as the older boy usually _was_
bigger), and why I had a vague feeling minimus (smallest) might have
been used when there was a third.
Was he the third after a father and grandfather, or the third to the
An uncle-by-marriage of my mother's had a brother whose forenames were
John Middleton Tertius and he was known generally as Tertius. Their
father's forenames were John Middleton as I presume their grandfather's
were also.
same parents? (I have one ancestor* called Thirzen, who was the
thirteenth [surviving - fourteenth altogether I think] child, and I
like to think the parents were just too tired to think of another name
for her.
*not direct ascendant, a sibling of one [so a child of one]; is that
still an ancestor?)
On 2020-08-22 15:24:54 +0000, J. P. Gilliver (John) said:
On Sat, 22 Aug 2020 at 10:57:25, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
On 22/08/2020 08:56, John Armstrong wrote:Odd, as maior and minor don't mean first and second, but bigger and
It happened once while I was at a Scottish boarding school in the 60s. >>>> Major, minor, and the youngest was "terts", short for "tertius", Latin >>>> for "third".
smaller (which usually mapped OK, as the older boy usually _was_
bigger), and why I had a vague feeling minimus (smallest) might have
been used when there was a third.
Was he the third after a father and grandfather, or the third to the
An uncle-by-marriage of my mother's had a brother whose forenames were
John Middleton Tertius and he was known generally as Tertius. Their
father's forenames were John Middleton as I presume their grandfather's
were also.
same parents? (I have one ancestor* called Thirzen, who was the
thirteenth [surviving - fourteenth altogether I think] child, and I
like to think the parents were just too tired to think of another name
for her.
*not direct ascendant, a sibling of one [so a child of one]; is that
still an ancestor?)
A pair of my great[5] grandparents had 17 children, of whom the
youngest son was called Henry Septimus and the youngest daughter was
called Louise Decima. I don't know how they knew that there wouldn't be
any more.
A pair of my great[5] grandparents had 17 children, of whom the
youngest son was called Henry Septimus and the youngest daughter was
called Louise Decima. I don't know how they knew that there wouldn't be
any more.
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