Good day,

I believe I have come across some promising information in regards to the ancestry of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson, Gentilhomme servant chez la Reine, capitaine d’infanterie, who married Hélène de Belleau and was the father of French-
Canadian immigrants Marie-Charlotte de Poitiers du Buisson and Jean-Baptiste de Poitiers du Buisson.

The parentage of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson is something that has been a mystery, but it is likely that he descends from the noble Poitiers-Valentinois house in France.

Trois familles canadiennes, by R. La Roque de Roquebrune found in NOVA FRANCIA Organe de la SOCIÉTÉ D’HISTOIRE DU CANADA, Volume V, Number 6 (November/December 1930) states that Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson was descendant of Odard de
Poitiers, chevalier, seigneur de Mailly, Commissaire ordinaire des Guerres. This is found on page 325 via the link below.

http://collections.banq.qc.ca:81/jrn03/novafrancia/src/1930/11/441152_1930-11.pdf

Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson is also mentioned as a descendant of Odard de Poitiers by Etienne Pattou on his file dedicated to the Poitiers. He mentions on the title page that the Poitiers du Buisson branch was in consultation with Yves Drolet.
Odard de Poitiers connection to the family can be traced back from page 11 of the file (linked below), while the Poitiers du Buisson branch is found on page 16 with Odard at the top and a dotted line linking him to Pierre-Charles indicative of the
generation(s) between them being unknown.

http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Poitiers-Valentinois.pdf

Further information on Odard de Poitiers place with the Poitiers family can be found in the: Histoire Généalogique Et Chronologique De La Maison Royale De ..., Volume 2 (linked below).

https://books.google.ca/books?id=d9ZDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=%22odard+de+poitiers%22&source=bl&ots=v_ZPx8W5Nl&sig=-jysCI3-SrnJdgPFz18JInj5HYI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2nOyBk9XSAhXl54MKHah9CvsQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22odard%20de%20poitiers%22&f=false

While researching Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly I came across some interesting references to him, two of which make mention of minor children in the guardianship of his brother Jean de Poitiers Abbé d’Ivry, de Saint Symphorien de Beauvais et de
Notre-Dame du Change. One of those references (first link below) also mentions his wife Madeleine de Poitiers whom was not mentioned in either of the sources above, as well as the names of his three children: Diane, Claude and Anne. The passage also
mentions that in another of document, Diane de Poitiers, Duchess of Valentinois, appears in the marriage contract of Oudard de Poitiers and Madeleine de Poitiers as endowing the captaincy of Orey.

The passage reads:

“Mailly faite au comte de Vertus le 19 novembre 1578 par Messire Jean de Poitiers abbé d Eslan etc au nom et comme tuteur de Diane Claude et Anne de Poitiers enfants mineurs de noble seigneur Oudard de Poitiers vivant seigneur de Mailly et demoiselle
Madeleine de Poitiers, sa femme, et héritiers de feu Claude de Poitiers. Dans un autre de ces documents en voit comme on l a dit plus haut Diane de Poitiers duchesse de Valentinois figurer au contrat de mariage de cet Oudard de Poitiers écuyer seigneur
de Mailly avec demoiselle Madeleine de Poitiers comme dotant la future et donnant au futur la capitainerie d Orey.”

https://books.google.ca/books?id=gl44AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA396&lpg=PA396&dq=%22oudard+de+poitiers%22&source=bl&ots=lM9yC8JI-h&sig=gjgD-JpgKpluaPtp3ns-gvj-UnQ&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22oudard%20de%20poitiers%22&f=false


The second passage reads:

“Exploit de Dacolle sergent royal aux foires de Champagne et de Brie pour l exécution des lettres de terrier relatives à la seigneurie de Mailly données à Paris le 20 août 1580 obtenues par Jean de Poitiers abbé commendataire d c Eslan diocèse
de Reims et de Chaage lès Meaux Seine et Marne comme tuteur des enfants mineurs d Odard de Poitiers sieur de Mailly commissaire ordinaire des guerres et Nicolas de La Montagne écuyer d écurie du duc de Guise seigneur de Mailly Villette Le Martroy
commune de Villette Mont suzain le fief de La Couture et Copperet.”

https://books.google.ca/books?id=TpcNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=%22Odard+de+Poitiers%22&source=bl&ots=BX02oWigt4&sig=rl_gXrlv7mc6uTPJRu3VBQzTmlY&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Odard%20de%20Poitiers%22&f=false

Taking into account this new information, a speculative link between Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly, and Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson can be drawn. The first passage dated 19 Nov 1578 lists all three children as minors, and the second
passage dated 1581 also mentions Odard’s children as minors putting their births likely between 1563 and 1578. Also, knowing from the passage that in the marriage contract of Odard and Madeleine that Diane de Poitiers endowed the captaincy of Orey, the
marriage of Odard and Madeleine would have had to of taken place prior to Diane de Poitiers death on 25 April 1566. Taking this into account with the fact that the Odard’s children: Diane, Claude and Anne were born somewhere between 1563 and 1578, it
is most likely the children were much closer to the earlier end of that range.

Of the three children, the only male mentioned is Claude. Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson was married to Hélène de Belleau prior to 1641, with his birth speculated as being between 1610 and 1615 in Aimens, Somme, France. Taking these dates into
account to construct a rough timeline (using 25 years per generation as a guide), it would appear that it is likely that given the range for the birth of Claude and the speculated range for the birth of Pierre-Charles, a couple of possibilities emerge.

Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly --> Claude de Poitiers (likely born abt. 1563-1570) --> Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson (1610-1615)

or

Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly --> Claude de Poitiers (likely born abt. 1563-1570) --> ______ de Poitiers (1590?-1595?) --> Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson (1610-1615)

Some of the parish records, and other records for Aimens have been digitized (linked below), but unfortunately have not been indexed, and I haven’t had a chance to comb through them as of yet to seek confirmation for the speculative link between Odard,
Claude and Pierre-Charles.

http://recherche.archives.somme.fr/?id=recherche_guidee_etat_civil

If the line between Odard, Claude and Pierre-Charles is legitimate, I believe it would produce an easily traceable lines to royal ancestry with the closest link I can surmise being to Louis VII, King of France and Eleanor de Poitou, Duchesse d'Aquitaine
via Hippolyte (Polie) de Bourgogne, Dame de Saint-Vallier wife of Aymar IV de Poitiers, Comte de Valentinois.

Any thoughts, insight or assistance in the matter would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Jordan Vandenberg

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

According to the reference (copied and linked below) found for this quittance in the minutes of the notary Philippe Lamiral, the marriage contract for the marriage of Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly and Madeleine de Poitiers was signed at Villers-
Cotterêts, Aisne, France 12 Jul 1558. Odard is referred to as the nephew of Diane de Poitiers and gifted 3000 l.t.

https://www.siv.archives-nationales.culture.gouv.fr/siv/rechercheconsultation/consultation/ir/pdfIR.action?irId=FRAN_IR_041886

From Page 62 of: Minutes et répertoires du notaire Philippe LAMIRAL, 23 avril 1555 - 12 décembre 1577 (étude XXXIII)

MC/ET/XXXIII/173
fol. 47
Quittance d'un don de mariage de 3000 l.t. fait par Diane de POITIERS, duchesse de Valentinois, à son neveu, Oudard de POITIERS, seigneur de Mailly, commissaire ordinaire des guerres, en raison de son mariage avec Madeleine de POITIERS, dont le contrat
a été signé à Villers-Cotterêts.
12 juillet 1558

Origine de l'information :
Fichier dit 'général' XVIe siècle (env. 30.000 actes), par le personnel du Minutier, 1930-1999 (fichier papier entièrement dématérialisé ; voir contexte dans le Plan d’orientation général - Notaires de Paris, guides thématiques du Minutier).
Date de création de la notice : 2008

Termes d'indexation
quittance; Villers-Cotterêts (Aisne); Diane de Poitiers (1499-1566); Poitiers, Oudard de; Poitiers, Madeleine de; commissaire des guerres (Ancien Régime)


This would further suggest earlier dates for the births of Odard’s children: Diane, Claude and Anne closer to the first half of the 1560s.

Does anyone know, until what age one was deemed a minor in 16th century France? Was it 18 or 21, or some other age? I was looking at it as if the age was 18, but if it is 21 or another age it would change the range of possible birthdates for his children
by a couple of years.




On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 12:39:57 PM UTC-4, jordanva...@hotmail.com wrote:

Good day,

I believe I have come across some promising information in regards to the ancestry of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson, Gentilhomme servant chez la Reine, capitaine d’infanterie, who married Hélène de Belleau and was the father of

French-Canadian immigrants Marie-Charlotte de Poitiers du Buisson and Jean-Baptiste de Poitiers du Buisson.

The parentage of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson is something that has been a mystery, but it is likely that he descends from the noble Poitiers-Valentinois house in France.

Trois familles canadiennes, by R. La Roque de Roquebrune found in NOVA FRANCIA Organe de la SOCIÉTÉ D’HISTOIRE DU CANADA, Volume V, Number 6 (November/December 1930) states that Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson was descendant of Odard de

Poitiers, chevalier, seigneur de Mailly, Commissaire ordinaire des Guerres. This is found on page 325 via the link below.

http://collections.banq.qc.ca:81/jrn03/novafrancia/src/1930/11/441152_1930-11.pdf

Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson is also mentioned as a descendant of Odard de Poitiers by Etienne Pattou on his file dedicated to the Poitiers. He mentions on the title page that the Poitiers du Buisson branch was in consultation with Yves Drolet.

Odard de Poitiers connection to the family can be traced back from page 11 of the file (linked below), while the Poitiers du Buisson branch is found on page 16 with Odard at the top and a dotted line linking him to Pierre-Charles indicative of the
generation(s) between them being unknown.

http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Poitiers-Valentinois.pdf

Further information on Odard de Poitiers place with the Poitiers family can be found in the: Histoire Généalogique Et Chronologique De La Maison Royale De ..., Volume 2 (linked below).

https://books.google.ca/books?id=d9ZDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=%22odard+de+poitiers%22&source=bl&ots=v_ZPx8W5Nl&sig=-jysCI3-SrnJdgPFz18JInj5HYI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2nOyBk9XSAhXl54MKHah9CvsQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=%22odard%20de%20poitiers%22&f=false

While researching Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly I came across some interesting references to him, two of which make mention of minor children in the guardianship of his brother Jean de Poitiers Abbé d’Ivry, de Saint Symphorien de Beauvais et de

Notre-Dame du Change. One of those references (first link below) also mentions his wife Madeleine de Poitiers whom was not mentioned in either of the sources above, as well as the names of his three children: Diane, Claude and Anne. The passage also
mentions that in another of document, Diane de Poitiers, Duchess of Valentinois, appears in the marriage contract of Oudard de Poitiers and Madeleine de Poitiers as endowing the captaincy of Orey.

The passage reads:

“Mailly faite au comte de Vertus le 19 novembre 1578 par Messire Jean de Poitiers abbé d Eslan etc au nom et comme tuteur de Diane Claude et Anne de Poitiers enfants mineurs de noble seigneur Oudard de Poitiers vivant seigneur de Mailly et

demoiselle Madeleine de Poitiers, sa femme, et héritiers de feu Claude de Poitiers. Dans un autre de ces documents en voit comme on l a dit plus haut Diane de Poitiers duchesse de Valentinois figurer au contrat de mariage de cet Oudard de Poitiers é
cuyer seigneur de Mailly avec demoiselle Madeleine de Poitiers comme dotant la future et donnant au futur la capitainerie d Orey.”

https://books.google.ca/books?id=gl44AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA396&lpg=PA396&dq=%22oudard+de+poitiers%22&source=bl&ots=lM9yC8JI-h&sig=gjgD-JpgKpluaPtp3ns-gvj-UnQ&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22oudard%20de%20poitiers%22&f=false

The second passage reads:

“Exploit de Dacolle sergent royal aux foires de Champagne et de Brie pour l exécution des lettres de terrier relatives à la seigneurie de Mailly données à Paris le 20 août 1580 obtenues par Jean de Poitiers abbé commendataire d c Eslan diocèse

de Reims et de Chaage lès Meaux Seine et Marne comme tuteur des enfants mineurs d Odard de Poitiers sieur de Mailly commissaire ordinaire des guerres et Nicolas de La Montagne écuyer d écurie du duc de Guise seigneur de Mailly Villette Le Martroy
commune de Villette Mont suzain le fief de La Couture et Copperet.”

https://books.google.ca/books?id=TpcNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA167&lpg=PA167&dq=%22Odard+de+Poitiers%22&source=bl&ots=BX02oWigt4&sig=rl_gXrlv7mc6uTPJRu3VBQzTmlY&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=%22Odard%20de%20Poitiers%22&f=false

Taking into account this new information, a speculative link between Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly, and Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson can be drawn. The first passage dated 19 Nov 1578 lists all three children as minors, and the

second passage dated 1581 also mentions Odard’s children as minors putting their births likely between 1563 and 1578. Also, knowing from the passage that in the marriage contract of Odard and Madeleine that Diane de Poitiers endowed the captaincy of
Orey, the marriage of Odard and Madeleine would have had to of taken place prior to Diane de Poitiers death on 25 April 1566. Taking this into account with the fact that the Odard’s children: Diane, Claude and Anne were born somewhere between 1563 and
1578, it is most likely the children were much closer to the earlier end of that range.

Of the three children, the only male mentioned is Claude. Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson was married to Hélène de Belleau prior to 1641, with his birth speculated as being between 1610 and 1615 in Aimens, Somme, France. Taking these dates into

account to construct a rough timeline (using 25 years per generation as a guide), it would appear that it is likely that given the range for the birth of Claude and the speculated range for the birth of Pierre-Charles, a couple of possibilities emerge.

Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly --> Claude de Poitiers (likely born abt. 1563-1570) --> Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson (1610-1615)

or

Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly --> Claude de Poitiers (likely born abt. 1563-1570) --> ______ de Poitiers (1590?-1595?) --> Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson (1610-1615)

Some of the parish records, and other records for Aimens have been digitized (linked below), but unfortunately have not been indexed, and I haven’t had a chance to comb through them as of yet to seek confirmation for the speculative link between

Odard, Claude and Pierre-Charles.

http://recherche.archives.somme.fr/?id=recherche_guidee_etat_civil

If the line between Odard, Claude and Pierre-Charles is legitimate, I believe it would produce an easily traceable lines to royal ancestry with the closest link I can surmise being to Louis VII, King of France and Eleanor de Poitou, Duchesse d'

Aquitaine via Hippolyte (Polie) de Bourgogne, Dame de Saint-Vallier wife of Aymar IV de Poitiers, Comte de Valentinois.

Any thoughts, insight or assistance in the matter would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Jordan Vandenberg

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:39:56 -0700 (PDT), jordanvandenberg@hotmail.com
wrote in soc.genealogy.french:

Good day,

I believe I have come across some promising information in regards to the ancestry of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson, Gentilhomme servant chez la Reine, capitaine d’infanterie, who married Hélène de Belleau and was the father of French-

Canadian immigrants Marie-Charlotte de Poitiers du Buisson and Jean-Baptiste de Poitiers du Buisson.

The parentage of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson is something that has been a mystery, but it is likely that he descends from the noble Poitiers-Valentinois house in France.

Trois familles canadiennes, by R. La Roque de Roquebrune found in NOVA FRANCIA Organe de la SOCIÉTÉ D’HISTOIRE DU CANADA, Volume V, Number 6 (November/December 1930) states that Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson was descendant of Odard de

Poitiers, chevalier, seigneur de Mailly, Commissaire ordinaire des Guerres. This is found
on page 325 via the link below.

The problem is that this La Roque de Roquebrune is not reliable at
all.

The relevant article is this one :

RAPQ (1975) 128

and it has nothing before Pierre Charles married to Hélène de Belleau
even if published 45 years later.

So you must find a reliable source (i.e. not based on Roquebrune) for
more generations. Otherwise, as you wrote, it is merely a speculation.


Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/ French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur cédérom à 1785 - On CD-ROM to 1785

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Denis,

Thank you for the post and for your information regarding La Roque de Roquebrune as a source, as well as the suggestion to look into the source that you mentioned.

As I mentioned in the original posts, at this point a link to Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly is just speculation, but is definitely worth looking into more closely.

The identification of Odard's wife (Madeleine de Poitiers) and the names of his three children (Diane, Claude and Anne), as well as the date and place of the marriage contract I believe are good first steps in either confirming or ruling out a direct
connection between Odard de Poitiers and Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson. The matter definitely deserves more attention.

The other mention of Odard de Poitiers as a connection with missing generations in between was on Etienne Pattou's page on the Poitiers at:
http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Poitiers-Valentinois.pdf
On the title page he mentions corresponding with Yves Drolet on the Poitiers du Buisson page in the file, which at the top has the dotted line from Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson to Odard de Poitiers. I am not sure if the suggestion of the
connection is Pattou's or Drolet's, or a conclusion both came to together.

Another interesting side note is that I came across a scan of the baptismal record for Jean-Baptiste de Poitiers du Buisson (son of Pierre-Charles) while trying to find a marriage record for Pierre-Charles and Helene de Belleau. It can be viewed at the
top of the left page via the link below:

http://recherche.archives.somme.fr/ark:/58483/a011261413219A2QuaI/1/1

Thanks again Denis for your thoughts, and information, and I welcome any further suggestions, information or insight that you are willing to provide.

Cheers,
Jordan.



On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 9:27:36 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:39:56 -0700 (PDT), jordanvandenberg@hotmail.com
wrote in soc.genealogy.french:

Good day,

I believe I have come across some promising information in regards to the ancestry of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson, Gentilhomme servant chez la Reine, capitaine d’infanterie, who married Hélène de Belleau and was the father of

French-Canadian immigrants Marie-Charlotte de Poitiers du Buisson and Jean-Baptiste de

Poitiers du Buisson.

The parentage of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson is something that has been a mystery, but it is likely that he descends from the noble Poitiers-Valentinois house in France.

Trois familles canadiennes, by R. La Roque de Roquebrune found in NOVA FRANCIA Organe de la SOCIÉTÉ D’HISTOIRE DU CANADA, Volume V, Number 6 (November/December 1930) states that Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson was descendant of Odard de

Poitiers, chevalier, seigneur de Mailly, Commissaire ordinaire des Guerres. This is found

on page 325 via the link below.

The problem is that this La Roque de Roquebrune is not reliable at
all.

The relevant article is this one :

RAPQ (1975) 128

and it has nothing before Pierre Charles married to Hélène de Belleau
even if published 45 years later.

So you must find a reliable source (i.e. not based on Roquebrune) for
more generations. Otherwise, as you wrote, it is merely a speculation.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/ French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/ Sur cédérom à 1785 - On CD-ROM to 1785

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Sorry the link to the baptism of Jean-Baptiste just takes you to the first page of the baptismal records. It is at the top of the left page on image #120.



On Thursday, March 16, 2017 at 3:58:57 PM UTC-4, jordanva...@hotmail.com wrote:

Denis,

Thank you for the post and for your information regarding La Roque de Roquebrune as a source, as well as the suggestion to look into the source that you mentioned.

As I mentioned in the original posts, at this point a link to Odard de Poitiers, sieur de Mailly is just speculation, but is definitely worth looking into more closely.

The identification of Odard's wife (Madeleine de Poitiers) and the names of his three children (Diane, Claude and Anne), as well as the date and place of the marriage contract I believe are good first steps in either confirming or ruling out a direct

connection between Odard de Poitiers and Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson. The matter definitely deserves more attention.

The other mention of Odard de Poitiers as a connection with missing generations in between was on Etienne Pattou's page on the Poitiers at:
http://racineshistoire.free.fr/LGN/PDF/Poitiers-Valentinois.pdf
On the title page he mentions corresponding with Yves Drolet on the Poitiers du Buisson page in the file, which at the top has the dotted line from Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson to Odard de Poitiers. I am not sure if the suggestion of the

connection is Pattou's or Drolet's, or a conclusion both came to together.

Another interesting side note is that I came across a scan of the baptismal record for Jean-Baptiste de Poitiers du Buisson (son of Pierre-Charles) while trying to find a marriage record for Pierre-Charles and Helene de Belleau. It can be viewed at the

top of the left page via the link below:

http://recherche.archives.somme.fr/ark:/58483/a011261413219A2QuaI/1/1

Thanks again Denis for your thoughts, and information, and I welcome any further suggestions, information or insight that you are willing to provide.

Cheers,
Jordan.

On Tuesday, March 14, 2017 at 9:27:36 PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:

On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:39:56 -0700 (PDT), jordanvandenberg@hotmail.com wrote in soc.genealogy.french:

Good day,

I believe I have come across some promising information in regards to the ancestry of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers, sieur du Buisson, Gentilhomme servant chez la Reine, capitaine d’infanterie, who married Hélène de Belleau and was the father of

French-Canadian immigrants Marie-Charlotte de Poitiers du Buisson and Jean-Baptiste de

Poitiers du Buisson.

The parentage of Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson is something that has been a mystery, but it is likely that he descends from the noble Poitiers-Valentinois house in France.

Trois familles canadiennes, by R. La Roque de Roquebrune found in NOVA FRANCIA Organe de la SOCIÉTÉ D’HISTOIRE DU CANADA, Volume V, Number 6 (November/December 1930) states that Pierre-Charles de Poitiers du Buisson was descendant of Odard de

Poitiers, chevalier, seigneur de Mailly, Commissaire ordinaire des Guerres. This is found

on page 325 via the link below.

The problem is that this La Roque de Roquebrune is not reliable at
all.

The relevant article is this one :

RAPQ (1975) 128

and it has nothing before Pierre Charles married to Hélène de Belleau even if published 45 years later.

So you must find a reliable source (i.e. not based on Roquebrune) for
more generations. Otherwise, as you wrote, it is merely a speculation.

Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/ French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/ Sur cédérom à 1785 - On CD-ROM to 1785

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)