• Shirttail cousins -- blogging's bertter

    From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 26 07:07:35 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    About 40 years ago an American relative used a term, "shirt-tail
    cousin", that was unfamiliar to me. I did not know her well, and was
    too shy to ask what she meant by it in case she took offence. Last
    year I asked about it on an English usage forum, and mentioned that
    she came from El Paso, Illinois, and later lived in New Orleans, to
    give a clue to her dialect area, in case anyone knew about such
    things. This request was treated with a great deal of rudeness by a supercilious American, who accused me of inventing a place with a
    Spanish name in Illinois, but had no reliable information on the
    meaning of the term.

    So yesterday I blogged about it. Since it was Christmas day, it also
    seemed a suitable opportunity to post a picture of the cousin I
    referred to, taken on Christmas day in 1981, and the blog post is
    here.

    https://t.co/pwAnayyTnF

    And this brought the answer to my question. The English usage forum
    just produced a great deal of acrimonious discussion with no useful information. The blog post prompted a cousin to find the answer to my
    question here:

    http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm

    Shirttail relative

    "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
    relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
    your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
    person who is close but not actually related by blood.

    A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
    said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
    distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
    honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
    been since the 1950s or thereabouts.

    Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
    abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
    American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
    dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
    examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
    cousin, as well as your form."

    I have a Facebook friend whom I describe as my "step fourth
    cousin-in-law once removed" (her stepfather was my wife's fourth
    cousin once removed). I think I can now refer to her as a "shirttail
    cousin" for short.

    Maybe my mistake was Googling for "shirt-tail cousin" with a hyphen
    instead of "shirttail relative", but at any rate, the blog post
    produced the information I was looking for, whereas a query in the
    appropriate newsgroup didn't, so I conclude that blogging's better.


    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lewis@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Sat Dec 26 12:06:08 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    In message <7n6s7bd728s05sdgrpt3ehchju5f4lijtj@4ax.com>
    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
    And this brought the answer to my question.

    As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.

    --
    I never wanted to do this in the first place.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 26 11:53:01 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:36:10 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    Shirttail relative

    "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
    relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
    your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
    person who is close but not actually related by blood.

    A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
    said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
    distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
    honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
    been since the 1950s or thereabouts.

    Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
    abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
    American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
    dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
    examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
    cousin, as well as your form."

    I remember the mythicalism of location being discussed with some heat,
    but evidently I didn't catch the original question. I'd have been
    happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I >certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its
    proper usage or range of appearance.

    The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
    given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
    Orleans axis -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
    experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
    disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
    ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.

    In the light of that, I'd be interested in knowing how close to that
    axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
    you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
    you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago.

    So blogging is better. May the joy of Christmas extend past the 25th
    of December.

    Thank you, and for you too.






    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Snidely@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Fri Dec 25 22:36:10 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Friday or thereabouts, Steve Hayes asked ...
    About 40 years ago an American relative used a term, "shirt-tail
    cousin", that was unfamiliar to me. I did not know her well, and was
    too shy to ask what she meant by it in case she took offence. Last
    year I asked about it on an English usage forum, and mentioned that
    she came from El Paso, Illinois, and later lived in New Orleans, to
    give a clue to her dialect area, in case anyone knew about such
    things. This request was treated with a great deal of rudeness by a supercilious American, who accused me of inventing a place with a
    Spanish name in Illinois, but had no reliable information on the
    meaning of the term.

    So yesterday I blogged about it. Since it was Christmas day, it also
    seemed a suitable opportunity to post a picture of the cousin I
    referred to, taken on Christmas day in 1981, and the blog post is
    here.

    https://t.co/pwAnayyTnF

    And this brought the answer to my question. The English usage forum
    just produced a great deal of acrimonious discussion with no useful information. The blog post prompted a cousin to find the answer to my question here:

    http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm

    Shirttail relative

    "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
    your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
    person who is close but not actually related by blood.

    A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
    said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
    distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
    been since the 1950s or thereabouts.

    Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
    abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
    American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
    examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
    cousin, as well as your form."

    I have a Facebook friend whom I describe as my "step fourth
    cousin-in-law once removed" (her stepfather was my wife's fourth
    cousin once removed). I think I can now refer to her as a "shirttail
    cousin" for short.

    Maybe my mistake was Googling for "shirt-tail cousin" with a hyphen
    instead of "shirttail relative", but at any rate, the blog post
    produced the information I was looking for, whereas a query in the appropriate newsgroup didn't, so I conclude that blogging's better.

    I remember the mythicalism of location being discussed with some heat,
    but evidently I didn't catch the original question. I'd have been
    happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its
    proper usage or range of appearance.

    So blogging is better. May the joy of Christmas extend past the 25th
    of December.

    /dps

    --
    "That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

    " Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
    -njm

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Roberts@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 26 12:02:43 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).

    The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks didn't
    bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was nothing derogatory in it; it
    was light-hearted and for convenience in any conversation.

    The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's shirttails'.
    It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's footsteps".

    Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious American.
    It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail cousin of mine.

    Cheers,

    Joe

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  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to shoreheritage@att.net on Sat Dec 26 19:27:58 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 12:02:43 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
    <shoreheritage@att.net> wrote:

    Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the term >"shirt-tail" (there might have been more).

    The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks didn't
    bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no one referred to >their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or not, by that term. They >were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was nothing derogatory in it; it
    was light-hearted and for convenience in any conversation.

    Thanks very much for the comments. It seems then that the usage is
    fairly consistent, and is a convenient way of referring to someone
    whom you know is related, but don't know exactly how.

    The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father or who >went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's shirttails'.
    It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's footsteps".

    Ok, but I think my (shirttail) cousin was using it in the first sense.



    --
    Steve Hayes
    Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
    http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Doug Chadduck@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Sat Dec 26 08:03:53 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On 12/25/2015 9:07 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
    About 40 years ago an American relative used a term, "shirt-tail
    cousin", that was unfamiliar to me. I did not know her well, and was
    too shy to ask what she meant by it in case she took offence. Last
    year I asked about it on an English usage forum, and mentioned that
    she came from El Paso, Illinois, and later lived in New Orleans, to
    give a clue to her dialect area, in case anyone knew about such
    things. This request was treated with a great deal of rudeness by a supercilious American, who accused me of inventing a place with a
    Spanish name in Illinois, but had no reliable information on the
    meaning of the term.

    So yesterday I blogged about it. Since it was Christmas day, it also
    seemed a suitable opportunity to post a picture of the cousin I
    referred to, taken on Christmas day in 1981, and the blog post is
    here.

    https://t.co/pwAnayyTnF

    And this brought the answer to my question. The English usage forum
    just produced a great deal of acrimonious discussion with no useful information. The blog post prompted a cousin to find the answer to my question here:

    http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm

    Shirttail relative

    "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
    your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
    person who is close but not actually related by blood.

    A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
    said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
    distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
    been since the 1950s or thereabouts.

    Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
    abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
    American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
    examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
    cousin, as well as your form."

    I have a Facebook friend whom I describe as my "step fourth
    cousin-in-law once removed" (her stepfather was my wife's fourth
    cousin once removed). I think I can now refer to her as a "shirttail
    cousin" for short.

    Maybe my mistake was Googling for "shirt-tail cousin" with a hyphen
    instead of "shirttail relative", but at any rate, the blog post
    produced the information I was looking for, whereas a query in the appropriate newsgroup didn't, so I conclude that blogging's better.


    I'm originally from North Dakota and "shirttail cousin" or "shirttail
    relative" are commonly used terms. At least they were in my family. I'D
    always wondered about "shirttail", versus back pocket or belt or
    whatever, but supposed it came from "grab my shirttail and follow me" or
    some other similar usage for a shirttail". Or as one of your blog replys "tag-a-long". Don't remember specifically anyone who was referred to as "shirttail" so not sure how close an association there was.

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  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies on Sat Dec 26 20:05:36 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 12:06:08 -0000 (UTC), Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

    In message <7n6s7bd728s05sdgrpt3ehchju5f4lijtj@4ax.com>
    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
    And this brought the answer to my question.

    As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.

    I suppose it is possible, but if so, I don't recall it with any
    clarity; probably because it was obscured by the smokeskreen of
    disinformation.


    --
    Steve Hayes
    Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
    http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to dchadduck@comcast.net on Sat Dec 26 20:09:03 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 08:03:53 -0800, Doug Chadduck
    <dchadduck@comcast.net> wrote:

    On 12/25/2015 9:07 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:

    http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm

    Shirttail relative

    "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
    relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
    your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
    person who is close but not actually related by blood.

    A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
    said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
    distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
    honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
    been since the 1950s or thereabouts.

    I'm originally from North Dakota and "shirttail cousin" or "shirttail >relative" are commonly used terms. At least they were in my family. I'D >always wondered about "shirttail", versus back pocket or belt or
    whatever, but supposed it came from "grab my shirttail and follow me" or
    some other similar usage for a shirttail". Or as one of your blog replys >"tag-a-long". Don't remember specifically anyone who was referred to as >"shirttail" so not sure how close an association there was.

    Thanks; your understanding also seems consistent with that definition,
    so it's definitely a lot clearer now.


    --
    Steve Hayes
    Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
    http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Snidely@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 26 11:38:45 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    Saturday, Steve Hayes quipped:
    On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 before midnite, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>

    (grouplist trimmed)

    The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
    given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
    Orleans axis -- [...]
    In the light of that, I'd be interested in knowing how close to that
    axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
    you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
    you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago.


    Not very close at all. My dad started in Toledo, Ohio, but moved to
    Oregon as a youngster. As a young adult, he eventually made his way to
    NYC, where my mother was raised (German Lutheran Brooklyner). I was
    born back on the West Coast.

    And in fact, my first encounter with "shirttail relative" wasn't
    through lots of people using it around me. It was from a passing
    comment on the radio was introducing a recording of a piece by William
    Bolcom, and admitted to being a shirttail relative of Bolcom's. That
    puzzled me, but I asked someone (possibly one my my parental units) and
    got an explanation. That explanation has been adequate for
    understanding the term on few additional encounters, and I never looked
    for a formal definition.

    (Bolcom was born in Seattle, west of the "axis", but I don't know where
    the announcer was born; the announcer was working in Portland OR back
    when there was a commercial station carrying classical music (in the
    evenings only, IIRC). So a long time ago.)

    /dps

    --
    "What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
    Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
    springs."
    (Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)

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  • From John Dawkins@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Sat Dec 26 12:45:33 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    In article <47os7b9gp645lh3t4rl50j325qcm274puo@4ax.com>,
    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

    On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:36:10 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    Shirttail relative

    "Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
    relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
    your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
    person who is close but not actually related by blood.

    A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually >> said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
    distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
    honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
    been since the 1950s or thereabouts.

    Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
    abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
    American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
    dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
    examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
    cousin, as well as your form."

    I remember the mythicalism of location being discussed with some heat,
    but evidently I didn't catch the original question. I'd have been
    happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I >certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its
    proper usage or range of appearance.

    The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
    given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
    Orleans axis -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
    experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
    disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
    ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.

    In the light of that, I'd be interested in knowing how close to that
    axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
    you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
    you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago.

    I grew up about 60 miles to the east of that axis, in a town once known
    as "The Home of Chuckles" (a sort of jellied candy, not a clown).
    Although I had plenty of cousins, of the shirt-tail variety and
    otherwise, I don't recall the term as being in common use.

    --
    J.

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  • From Peter Duncanson [BrE]@21:1/5 to g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies on Sat Dec 26 21:22:06 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Sat, 26 Dec 2015 12:06:08 -0000 (UTC), Lewis <g.kreme@gmail.com.dontsendmecopies> wrote:

    In message <7n6s7bd728s05sdgrpt3ehchju5f4lijtj@4ax.com>
    Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
    And this brought the answer to my question.

    As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.

    I recall responsing to the matter of the existence of El Paso, Illinois,
    but I don't recall any discussion of "shirt-tail cousin".

    The OED has in the entry for "shirt, n.":

    shirt-tail n.
    (a) the tail of a shirt;
    (b) U.S. used attrib. or as adj. to designate something small and
    insignificant, or a remote relationship; freq. as shirt-tail boy n.
    a very young boy.

    1845 J. J. Hooper Some Adventures Simon Suggs 13 From the time
    he was a ‘shirt-tail boy’, [his wits] were always too sharp for
    his father's.
    1846 W. D. Stewart & J. W. Webb Altowan I. vi. 174 He..leaped
    into the river,..and made a shirt-tail across the prairie on the
    other side.
    1873 C. G. Leland Egyptian Sketch-bk. 47 Rushing madly about,
    their blue-and-white shirt-tails waving in the wind.
    1878 J. C. Guild Old Times in Tennessee 411, I traversed these
    granite hills and beautiful vales as a shirt-tail boy.
    1929 W. Faulkner Sound & Fury 256 My people owned slaves here
    when you all were running little shirt tail country stores.
    1938 M. K. Rawlings Yearling xxxiii. 421 Nobody but your
    folks'll bother with a little ol' shirt-tail boy like you.
    1941 Amer. Speech 16 24/2 Shirt-tail kin, a remote relationship.
    1975 Publishers Weekly 8 Sept. 57/2 A shirttail relation of the
    hotel-owning branch of the family.

    {This entry has not yet been fully updated (first published 1914).}

    --
    Peter Duncanson, UK
    (in alt.usage.english)

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  • From CDB@21:1/5 to Joe Roberts on Sun Dec 27 09:04:52 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:

    Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
    term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).

    The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
    didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
    one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
    not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
    nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
    any conversation.

    The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
    or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's footsteps".

    I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
    "coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
    association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
    distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
    because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
    use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
    behaviour by that close connection.

    Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?

    And a couple of questions more, if you will:

    Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
    similar expression?

    Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail cousins" and "kissing cousins"?

    Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
    American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
    cousin of mine.

    One of yours? Didn't see anything that called for embarrassment.
    Anyway, we have some of our own.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to CDB on Sun Dec 27 16:56:28 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 09:04:52 -0500, CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:

    Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
    term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).

    The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
    didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
    one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
    not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
    nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
    any conversation.

    The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
    or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
    shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
    footsteps".

    I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of >"coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her >association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a >distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
    because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
    use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
    behaviour by that close connection.


    The coat-tails usage has been familiar to me for a long time, and I've understood it with that meaning.

    Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?

    And a couple of questions more, if you will:

    Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any >similar expression?

    Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail cousins" and >"kissing cousins"?

    I'd also head of "kissing cousins" long before I'd heard of shirt-tail
    cousins, but I've never been sure of the meaning.

    It seems to me it could mean:

    1. Close cousins that you know and have grown up with , and greet with
    a kiss, like uncles and aunts, as opposed to more distant cousins who
    need a formal introduction because you don't know them at all.

    or

    2. Cousins sufficiently distant that you are able to marry them
    without offending the mores and customs and possibly laws of your
    society.

    I think that too was discussed on alt.usage.english at one point,
    though I don't recaqll any firm conclusion.


    --
    Steve Hayes
    Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
    http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

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  • From Joe Roberts@21:1/5 to CDB on Sun Dec 27 10:54:13 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    "CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote in message news:n5or69$4ss$1@speranza.aioe.org...
    On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:

    Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
    term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).

    The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
    didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
    one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
    not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
    nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
    any conversation.

    The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
    or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
    shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
    footsteps".

    I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of "coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
    because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
    use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
    behaviour by that close connection.

    Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?

    Yes, indeed.


    And a couple of questions more, if you will:

    Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any similar expression?

    A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's "apron strings".

    ... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
    socially incorrect.


    Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail cousins" and "kissing cousins"?

    Get a bunch of cousins together, and I'll bet there'll be some differing opinions on that between the ones talking and the ones being talked about.


    Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
    American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
    cousin of mine.

    One of yours? Didn't see anything that called for embarrassment. Anyway,
    we have some of our own.

    Oh, no, no, never ... We have only the nicest apples on our family tree, of course.

    ... What, never? No, never! What, never? Well ..... hardly ever.

    Cheers,

    Joe

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  • From CDB@21:1/5 to Joe Roberts on Sun Dec 27 12:32:39 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On 27/12/2015 10:54 AM, Joe Roberts wrote:
    "CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
    Joe Roberts wrote:

    Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for
    the term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).

    The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
    didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example,
    no one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether
    'removed' or not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail'
    cousins. There was nothing derogatory in it; it was
    light-hearted and for convenience in any conversation.

    The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his
    father or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on
    his daddy's shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in
    his father's footsteps".

    I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
    "coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or
    her association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's
    case, a distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a
    relative because of being related to another, closer connection.
    In your second use, the male child would be drawn into his father's
    appearance or behaviour by that close connection.

    Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?

    Yes, indeed.

    And a couple of questions more, if you will:

    Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using
    any similar expression?

    A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her
    mother's "apron strings".

    ... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
    socially incorrect.

    Thanks. I thought of apron-strings, but I didn't want to prompt a response.

    Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail
    cousins" and "kissing cousins"?

    Get a bunch of cousins together, and I'll bet there'll be some
    differing opinions on that between the ones talking and the ones
    being talked about.

    Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
    American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
    cousin of mine.

    One of yours? Didn't see anything that called for embarrassment.
    Anyway, we have some of our own.

    Oh, no, no, never ... We have only the nicest apples on our family
    tree, of course.

    ... What, never? No, never! What, never? Well ..... hardly ever.

    I don't doubt it, even without the disclaimer. By "yours" I meant only
    "posting from one of the genealogy groups listed above", where I presume
    you hang out too.

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  • From Joe Roberts@21:1/5 to CDB on Sun Dec 27 16:16:35 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    "CDB" wrote:

    Joe Roberts wrote:

    We have only the nicest apples on our family
    tree, of course.


    I don't doubt it, even without the disclaimer. By "yours" I meant only "posting from one of the genealogy groups listed above", where I presume
    you hang out too.

    Well, we do have a couple of apples who might be politely excluded from
    baking in the family pie. But then, in family discussions, we could
    disburden ourselves by using the term "shirt-tail" cousins, thereby
    maintaining a discreet distance.

    Cheers,

    Joe

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  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to shoreheritage@att.net on Mon Dec 28 03:22:17 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:54:13 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
    <shoreheritage@att.net> wrote:


    "CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:n5or69$4ss$1@speranza.aioe.org...
    On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:

    Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
    term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).

    The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
    didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
    one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
    not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
    nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
    any conversation.

    The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
    or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
    shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
    footsteps".

    I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
    "coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
    association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
    distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
    because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
    use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
    behaviour by that close connection.

    Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?

    Yes, indeed.


    And a couple of questions more, if you will:

    Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
    similar expression?

    A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's >"apron strings".

    ... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
    socially incorrect.

    I've usually heard that applied to males -- "He's tied to his mother's
    apron strings".


    --
    Steve Hayes
    Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
    http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Janet@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 28 12:40:37 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    In article <0i318b96vh150icbv5vl9gndiqkpbsclov@4ax.com>,
    hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...

    On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:54:13 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
    <shoreheritage@att.net> wrote:


    "CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:n5or69$4ss$1@speranza.aioe.org...
    On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:

    Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
    term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).

    The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
    didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
    one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
    not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
    nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
    any conversation.

    The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
    or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
    shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
    footsteps".

    I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
    "coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
    association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
    distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
    because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
    use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
    behaviour by that close connection.

    Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?

    Yes, indeed.


    And a couple of questions more, if you will:

    Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
    similar expression?

    A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's >"apron strings".

    ... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming >socially incorrect.

    I've usually heard that applied to males -- "He's tied to his mother's
    apron strings".

    +1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
    let her son grow up and be independent.

    Janet.

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  • From Cheryl@21:1/5 to Rich Ulrich on Mon Dec 28 15:49:54 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On 2015-12-28 2:34 PM, Rich Ulrich wrote:
    On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:40:37 -0000, Janet <nobody@home.org> wrote:


    +1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
    let her son grow up and be independent.

    Long ago, in a book by a social anthropologist, I was struck
    by the observation that one of the biggest differences
    between societies was how much they expected sons to
    remain attached to the apron strings, all their lives.

    It occurs to me today that I do not recollect there being
    evidence in that book about that. And I don't think of
    other evidence grabbing my attention in all the years since then.

    Does anybody admire apron strings?

    Calling them "apron strings" implies that they're undesirable. If the
    level of care and attention a son pays to his mother is considered
    appropriate, he's a good son. If they're considered excessive, he's tied
    to her apron strings. I expect exactly the same behaviour would be
    considered either proper love and attention from a son or signs of apron strings in different cultures, or even different families. There's also
    the way in which closeness is expressed - in some cultures, the son is
    expected to defer to the matriarch, who rules everything inside the
    home. In others, the son is expected to care for the mother more as a
    dependent child - even when she isn't in need of that type of care, for example, due to illness.

    And some mothers favour sons over daughters, and are much inclined to
    keep them close and, their daughters would say, spoiled, while expecting
    actual help from the daughters.

    What's the old saying - something about a son is your son until he takes
    him a wife; a daughter is a daughter all your life? That comes from
    people among whom the son is supposed to break the apron strings - and
    maybe attach himself to his wife's.

    --
    Cheryl

    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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  • From Rich Ulrich@21:1/5 to Janet on Mon Dec 28 13:04:43 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:40:37 -0000, Janet <nobody@home.org> wrote:


    +1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
    let her son grow up and be independent.

    Long ago, in a book by a social anthropologist, I was struck
    by the observation that one of the biggest differences
    between societies was how much they expected sons to
    remain attached to the apron strings, all their lives.

    It occurs to me today that I do not recollect there being
    evidence in that book about that. And I don't think of
    other evidence grabbing my attention in all the years since then.

    Does anybody admire apron strings?

    --
    Rich Ulrich

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  • From RH Draney@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Mon Dec 28 22:51:50 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On 12/28/2015 9:09 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:

    One of my favourite films was "Morgan, a suitable case for treatment".
    It was made in the 1960s, and is about a bloke from a working-class
    London family who tries to win back his rich estranged wife. He lives
    with his mother in a small flat, all over nostalgic socialist posters.
    She is sad and somewhat resigned to the difficulties of life.

    One evening in Florence, being at a loose end, I went to see it again.
    It had been dubbed into Italian, which changed that characters
    completely. The mother had turned into a strident termagant, with the
    son tied to her apron strings. At least that's what it sounded like to
    me, simply from the change in the tone of the voices.

    I had a similar experience with "Crouching Tiger, Hidden
    Dragon"...having first seen it in Mandarin with English subtitles, I was shocked when I heard the voice they used to dub Michelle Yeoh's character...instead of the slightly world-weary tone I had heard in the theater, she came off as a nagging fishwife....r

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  • From Peter Moylan@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Tue Dec 29 15:14:05 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On 2015-Dec-28 12:22, Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:54:13 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
    <shoreheritage@att.net> wrote:


    "CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:n5or69$4ss$1@speranza.aioe.org...

    Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
    similar expression?

    A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's
    "apron strings".

    ... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
    socially incorrect.

    I've usually heard that applied to males -- "He's tied to his mother's
    apron strings".

    That's nothing to do with similarity of appearance or character, though.
    The mother probably uses a different apron for that.

    Did the TV series "Mother and Son" ever make it out of this country? If
    you can find it, watch it, because it's both funny and sad. The
    principal male character can never hang on to a girlfriend because of interference by his demanding and slightly demented mother.

    --
    Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW, Australia

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  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to Janet on Tue Dec 29 06:09:54 2015
    XPost: alt.genealogy, alt.usage.english

    On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:40:37 -0000, Janet <nobody@home.org> wrote:

    In article <0i318b96vh150icbv5vl9gndiqkpbsclov@4ax.com>, >hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...

    On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:54:13 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
    <shoreheritage@att.net> wrote:


    "CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:n5or69$4ss$1@speranza.aioe.org...
    On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:

    Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
    term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).

    The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
    didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
    one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
    not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
    nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
    any conversation.

    The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
    or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
    shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
    footsteps".

    I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
    "coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
    association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a >> >> distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
    because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second >> >> use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
    behaviour by that close connection.

    Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?

    Yes, indeed.


    And a couple of questions more, if you will:

    Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
    similar expression?

    A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's >> >"apron strings".

    ... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
    socially incorrect.

    I've usually heard that applied to males -- "He's tied to his mother's
    apron strings".

    +1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
    let her son grow up and be independent.

    I think it applies to some cultures more than others. Parts of Italy
    come to mind.

    One of my favourite films was "Morgan, a suitable case for treatment".
    It was made in the 1960s, and is about a bloke from a working-class
    London family who tries to win back his rich estranged wife. He lives
    with his mother in a small flat, all over nostalgic socialist posters.
    She is sad and somewhat resigned to the difficulties of life.

    One evening in Florence, being at a loose end, I went to see it again.
    It had been dubbed into Italian, which changed that characters
    completely. The mother had turned into a strident termagant, with the
    son tied to her apron strings. At least that's what it sounded like to
    me, simply from the change in the tone of the voices.


    --
    Steve Hayes
    Web: http://hayesgreene.wordpress.com/
    http://hayesgreene.blogspot.com
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/afgen/

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