And this brought the answer to my question.
Shirttail relative
"Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
person who is close but not actually related by blood.
A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
cousin, as well as your form."
I remember the mythicalism of location being discussed with some heat,
but evidently I didn't catch the original question. I'd have been
happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I >certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its
proper usage or range of appearance.
So blogging is better. May the joy of Christmas extend past the 25th
of December.
About 40 years ago an American relative used a term, "shirt-tail
cousin", that was unfamiliar to me. I did not know her well, and was
too shy to ask what she meant by it in case she took offence. Last
year I asked about it on an English usage forum, and mentioned that
she came from El Paso, Illinois, and later lived in New Orleans, to
give a clue to her dialect area, in case anyone knew about such
things. This request was treated with a great deal of rudeness by a supercilious American, who accused me of inventing a place with a
Spanish name in Illinois, but had no reliable information on the
meaning of the term.
So yesterday I blogged about it. Since it was Christmas day, it also
seemed a suitable opportunity to post a picture of the cousin I
referred to, taken on Christmas day in 1981, and the blog post is
here.
https://t.co/pwAnayyTnF
And this brought the answer to my question. The English usage forum
just produced a great deal of acrimonious discussion with no useful information. The blog post prompted a cousin to find the answer to my question here:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm
Shirttail relative
"Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
person who is close but not actually related by blood.
A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
cousin, as well as your form."
I have a Facebook friend whom I describe as my "step fourth
cousin-in-law once removed" (her stepfather was my wife's fourth
cousin once removed). I think I can now refer to her as a "shirttail
cousin" for short.
Maybe my mistake was Googling for "shirt-tail cousin" with a hyphen
instead of "shirttail relative", but at any rate, the blog post
produced the information I was looking for, whereas a query in the appropriate newsgroup didn't, so I conclude that blogging's better.
Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the term >"shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks didn't
bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no one referred to >their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or not, by that term. They >were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was nothing derogatory in it; it
was light-hearted and for convenience in any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father or who >went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's shirttails'.
It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's footsteps".
About 40 years ago an American relative used a term, "shirt-tail
cousin", that was unfamiliar to me. I did not know her well, and was
too shy to ask what she meant by it in case she took offence. Last
year I asked about it on an English usage forum, and mentioned that
she came from El Paso, Illinois, and later lived in New Orleans, to
give a clue to her dialect area, in case anyone knew about such
things. This request was treated with a great deal of rudeness by a supercilious American, who accused me of inventing a place with a
Spanish name in Illinois, but had no reliable information on the
meaning of the term.
So yesterday I blogged about it. Since it was Christmas day, it also
seemed a suitable opportunity to post a picture of the cousin I
referred to, taken on Christmas day in 1981, and the blog post is
here.
https://t.co/pwAnayyTnF
And this brought the answer to my question. The English usage forum
just produced a great deal of acrimonious discussion with no useful information. The blog post prompted a cousin to find the answer to my question here:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm
Shirttail relative
"Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
person who is close but not actually related by blood.
A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
cousin, as well as your form."
I have a Facebook friend whom I describe as my "step fourth
cousin-in-law once removed" (her stepfather was my wife's fourth
cousin once removed). I think I can now refer to her as a "shirttail
cousin" for short.
Maybe my mistake was Googling for "shirt-tail cousin" with a hyphen
instead of "shirttail relative", but at any rate, the blog post
produced the information I was looking for, whereas a query in the appropriate newsgroup didn't, so I conclude that blogging's better.
In message <7n6s7bd728s05sdgrpt3ehchju5f4lijtj@4ax.com>
Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
And this brought the answer to my question.
As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.
On 12/25/2015 9:07 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-shi5.htm
Shirttail relative
"Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
person who is close but not actually related by blood.
A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually
said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
I'm originally from North Dakota and "shirttail cousin" or "shirttail >relative" are commonly used terms. At least they were in my family. I'D >always wondered about "shirttail", versus back pocket or belt or
whatever, but supposed it came from "grab my shirttail and follow me" or
some other similar usage for a shirttail". Or as one of your blog replys >"tag-a-long". Don't remember specifically anyone who was referred to as >"shirttail" so not sure how close an association there was.
On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 before midnite, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
Orleans axis -- [...]
In the light of that, I'd be interested in knowing how close to that
axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago.
On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 22:36:10 -0800, Snidely <snidely.too@gmail.com>
wrote:
Shirttail relative
"Q From Charles F Weishar: I attempted to find the source of shirttail
relative and similar expressions in Hendrickson’s encyclopedia and
your site but have found nothing. I hear the phrase used to describe a
person who is close but not actually related by blood.
A That’s roughly the meaning given in the dictionaries. It’s usually >> said to refer to somebody who is a relative by marriage or is only
distantly related, such as a fourth cousin, or is a family friend with
honorary status as a relative. It’s fairly common in the USA and has
been since the 1950s or thereabouts.
Getting to the bottom of it, so to speak, may be a task beyond my
abilities from this side of the Atlantic Ocean. One dictionary of
American slang suggests it was originally southern and mid-western US
dialect. The Dictionary of American Regional English (DARE) has
examples from 1927 onwards, such as shirt-tail kin and shirt tail
cousin, as well as your form."
I remember the mythicalism of location being discussed with some heat,
but evidently I didn't catch the original question. I'd have been
happy to give my usage (which overlaps what you reported today), but I >certainly would not have been able to give much documentation on its
proper usage or range of appearance.
The description of "southern and mid-western US regional dialect"
given in the quoted source seems to me to fit with the El Paso--New
Orleans axis -- interesting that none of the self-proclaimed AmE
experts on aue were able to detect it, but chose to spread
disinformation instead, which just goes to show how the signal/noise
ratio on aue has deteriorated over the years.
In the light of that, I'd be interested in knowing how close to that
axis you live or grew up, if the usage is familiar to you. It's a pity
you missed the original question in the midst of all the noise, since
you might have been able to answer it 15 months ago.
In message <7n6s7bd728s05sdgrpt3ehchju5f4lijtj@4ax.com>
Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
And this brought the answer to my question.
As I recall, the question was answered in the original thread.
Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's footsteps".
Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
cousin of mine.
On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:
Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
footsteps".
I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of >"coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her >association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a >distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
behaviour by that close connection.
Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
And a couple of questions more, if you will:
Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any >similar expression?
Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail cousins" and >"kissing cousins"?
On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:
Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
footsteps".
I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of "coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
behaviour by that close connection.
Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
And a couple of questions more, if you will:
Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any similar expression?
Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail cousins" and "kissing cousins"?
Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
cousin of mine.
One of yours? Didn't see anything that called for embarrassment. Anyway,
we have some of our own.
"CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
Joe Roberts wrote:
Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for
the term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example,
no one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether
'removed' or not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail'
cousins. There was nothing derogatory in it; it was
light-hearted and for convenience in any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his
father or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on
his daddy's shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in
his father's footsteps".
I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
"coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or
her association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's
case, a distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a
relative because of being related to another, closer connection.
In your second use, the male child would be drawn into his father's
appearance or behaviour by that close connection.
Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
Yes, indeed.
And a couple of questions more, if you will:
Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using
any similar expression?
A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her
mother's "apron strings".
... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
socially incorrect.
Is there an accepted division of relatives into "shirt-tail
cousins" and "kissing cousins"?
Get a bunch of cousins together, and I'll bet there'll be some
differing opinions on that between the ones talking and the ones
being talked about.
Also I'd like to apologize for the rudeness of that supercilious
American. It was uncalled for. Hopefully he's not a shirt-tail
cousin of mine.
One of yours? Didn't see anything that called for embarrassment.
Anyway, we have some of our own.
Oh, no, no, never ... We have only the nicest apples on our family
tree, of course.
... What, never? No, never! What, never? Well ..... hardly ever.
Joe Roberts wrote:
We have only the nicest apples on our family
tree, of course.
I don't doubt it, even without the disclaimer. By "yours" I meant only "posting from one of the genealogy groups listed above", where I presume
you hang out too.
"CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:n5or69$4ss$1@speranza.aioe.org...
On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:
Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
footsteps".
I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
"coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
behaviour by that close connection.
Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
Yes, indeed.
And a couple of questions more, if you will:
Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
similar expression?
A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's >"apron strings".
... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
socially incorrect.
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:54:13 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
<shoreheritage@att.net> wrote:
"CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:n5or69$4ss$1@speranza.aioe.org...
On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:
Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
footsteps".
I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
"coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a
distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second
use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
behaviour by that close connection.
Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
Yes, indeed.
And a couple of questions more, if you will:
Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
similar expression?
A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's >"apron strings".
... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming >socially incorrect.
I've usually heard that applied to males -- "He's tied to his mother's
apron strings".
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 12:40:37 -0000, Janet <nobody@home.org> wrote:
+1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
let her son grow up and be independent.
Long ago, in a book by a social anthropologist, I was struck
by the observation that one of the biggest differences
between societies was how much they expected sons to
remain attached to the apron strings, all their lives.
It occurs to me today that I do not recollect there being
evidence in that book about that. And I don't think of
other evidence grabbing my attention in all the years since then.
Does anybody admire apron strings?
+1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
let her son grow up and be independent.
One of my favourite films was "Morgan, a suitable case for treatment".
It was made in the 1960s, and is about a bloke from a working-class
London family who tries to win back his rich estranged wife. He lives
with his mother in a small flat, all over nostalgic socialist posters.
She is sad and somewhat resigned to the difficulties of life.
One evening in Florence, being at a loose end, I went to see it again.
It had been dubbed into Italian, which changed that characters
completely. The mother had turned into a strident termagant, with the
son tied to her apron strings. At least that's what it sounded like to
me, simply from the change in the tone of the voices.
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:54:13 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
<shoreheritage@att.net> wrote:
"CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:n5or69$4ss$1@speranza.aioe.org...
Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
similar expression?
A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's
"apron strings".
... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
socially incorrect.
I've usually heard that applied to males -- "He's tied to his mother's
apron strings".
In article <0i318b96vh150icbv5vl9gndiqkpbsclov@4ax.com>, >hayesstw@telkomsa.net says...
On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 10:54:13 -0500, "Joe Roberts"
<shoreheritage@att.net> wrote:
"CDB" <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:n5or69$4ss$1@speranza.aioe.org...
On 26/12/2015 12:02 PM, Joe Roberts wrote:
Raised in southwestern Texas, I recall hearing two usages for the
term "shirt-tail" (there might have been more).
The first usage simply referred to distant relatives whom folks
didn't bother to label in the genealogical sense. For example, no
one referred to their third or fourth cousins, whether 'removed' or
not, by that term. They were simply 'shirt-tail' cousins. There was
nothing derogatory in it; it was light-hearted and for convenience in
any conversation.
The second referred to a male child who looked similar to his father
or who went into same profession, as in: "he grew up on his daddy's
shirttails'. It was similar to saying "he followed in his father's
footsteps".
I've been wondering about its similarity to the political use of
"coat-tails", where a candidate wins election because of his or her
association with another, very popular, candidate. In the OP's case, a >> >> distant connection or a connection by marriage would be a relative
because of being related to another, closer connection. In your second >> >> use, the male child would be drawn into his father's appearance or
behaviour by that close connection.
Does that fit with your intuition as a user of the expression?
Yes, indeed.
And a couple of questions more, if you will:
Are female children ever said to follow after their mothers, using any
similar expression?
A similar one is for a daughter who comes along into life on her mother's >> >"apron strings".
... Er, there's a bit of sexism in that ... now it might be becoming
socially incorrect.
I've usually heard that applied to males -- "He's tied to his mother's
apron strings".
+1. Or "she needs to cut the apron strings " meaning, Mother needs to
let her son grow up and be independent.
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