Prof. Eugene Volokh reports:
----------------------------
This morning, the Supreme Court declined to hear Ben-Levi v. Brown,
but Justice Samuel Alito dissented, arguing that North Carolina
prisons had discriminated against the Jewish plaintiff prison inmate,
in violation of the Free Exercise Clause.
Ben-Levi is serving a life sentence for a 1980 rape; at some point, he >changed his name to Israel Ben-Levi, and either converted to Judaism
or rediscovered Judaism; he now wants to engage in group Torah study
with two other inmates. North Carolina prisons generally allow group >religious study; but for Jews they require either the presence of a
rabbi or a minyan — 10 adult Jews. The minyan requirement stems from
the prison system’s understanding of Jewish law.
This, Justice Alito argues, is impermissible religious discrimination
against Jews, which violates the Free Exercise Clause: [...]
Full article at >https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/02/29/justice-alito-on-discrimination-against-jewish-prison-inmates/
he now wants to engage in group Torah study
with two other inmates. North Carolina prisons generally allow group religious study; but for Jews they require either the presence of a
rabbi or a minyan — 10 adult Jews.
And for the non-Jews reading, it's best for a Jewish man to pray with
a minyan, but it's not required. Prayer without a minyan means that
Kaddish, Borchu (two lines, the first two lines, not the whole section
that follows), and the repetition of the Amidah should be omitted.
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:58:26 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov ><ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
Prof. Eugene Volokh reports:
----------------------------
This morning, the Supreme Court declined to hear Ben-Levi v. Brown,
but Justice Samuel Alito dissented, arguing that North Carolina
prisons had discriminated against the Jewish plaintiff prison inmate,
in violation of the Free Exercise Clause.
Ben-Levi is serving a life sentence for a 1980 rape; at some point, he >>changed his name to Israel Ben-Levi, and either converted to Judaism
or rediscovered Judaism; he now wants to engage in group Torah study
with two other inmates. North Carolina prisons generally allow group >>religious study; but for Jews they require either the presence of a
rabbi or a minyan — 10 adult Jews. The minyan requirement stems from
the prison system’s understanding of Jewish law.
This, Justice Alito argues, is impermissible religious discrimination >>against Jews, which violates the Free Exercise Clause: [...]
Alito's right.
And it takes a lot of nerve for the warden to think he understands
Judaism better than the Jew do.
And of course study is not prayer, so none of this applies at all.
**Remember when I said that Xians think Judaism is just like Xianity--
except for Jesus. This is another example of that.
Full article at >>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/02/29/justice-alito-on-discrimination-against-jewish-prison-inmates/
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:07:19 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2005@bigfoot.com> said:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:58:26 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov >><ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
Prof. Eugene Volokh reports:
----------------------------
This morning, the Supreme Court declined to hear Ben-Levi v. Brown,
but Justice Samuel Alito dissented, arguing that North Carolina
prisons had discriminated against the Jewish plaintiff prison inmate,
in violation of the Free Exercise Clause.
Ben-Levi is serving a life sentence for a 1980 rape; at some point, he >>>changed his name to Israel Ben-Levi, and either converted to Judaism
or rediscovered Judaism; he now wants to engage in group Torah study
with two other inmates. North Carolina prisons generally allow group >>>religious study; but for Jews they require either the presence of a
rabbi or a minyan — 10 adult Jews. The minyan requirement stems from
the prison system’s understanding of Jewish law.
This, Justice Alito argues, is impermissible religious discrimination >>>against Jews, which violates the Free Exercise Clause: [...]
Alito's right.
And it takes a lot of nerve for the warden to think he understands
Judaism better than the Jew[s] do.
Alito's point is that such thoughts are irrelevant.
is that they have a Religious Practices Manual, which stated: "A
quorum (minyan) of ten (10) adult Jews is usually required to hold a
formal worship service, but this requirement may be waived in a prison >setting when led by a Rabbi."
[snip]
And of course study is not prayer, so none of this applies at all.
Precisely. That appears to have been the warden's mistake: conflating
study and worship.
But there's another way of looking at it. She corresponded with Rabbi
Gary Friedman of the Jewish Prisoner Services Int'l, and he told her
that a minyan is not required for Tora/Talmud study conducted by a
qualified teacher. The warden may have seized on the latter, believing
it to be a requirement, rather than the minyan one. As stated in
Pirkei Avot 2:3: "Be careful with the government."
The good news is that the prison policy has been amended and an
outside "faith volunteer" is no longer required.
**Remember when I said that Xians think Judaism is just like Xianity
except for Jesus. This is another example of that.
Full article at >>>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/02/29/justice-alito-on-discrimination-against-jewish-prison-inmates/
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 23:06:18 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov <ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:07:19 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2005@bigfoot.com> said:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:58:26 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov >><ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
Prof. Eugene Volokh reports:
----------------------------
This morning, the Supreme Court declined to hear Ben-Levi v. Brown,
but Justice Samuel Alito dissented, arguing that North Carolina
prisons had discriminated against the Jewish plaintiff prison inmate, >>>in violation of the Free Exercise Clause.
Ben-Levi is serving a life sentence for a 1980 rape; at some point, he >>>changed his name to Israel Ben-Levi, and either converted to Judaism
or rediscovered Judaism; he now wants to engage in group Torah study >>>with two other inmates. North Carolina prisons generally allow group >>>religious study; but for Jews they require either the presence of a >>>rabbi or a minyan -- 10 adult Jews. The minyan requirement stems from >>>the prison system's understanding of Jewish law.
This, Justice Alito argues, is impermissible religious discrimination >>>against Jews, which violates the Free Exercise Clause: [...]
Alito's right.
And it takes a lot of nerve for the warden to think he understands >>Judaism better than the Jew[s] do.
Alito's point is that such thoughts are irrelevant.
I know. He's right.
The warden's point
is that they have a Religious Practices Manual, which stated: "A
quorum (minyan) of ten (10) adult Jews is usually required to hold a
formal worship service, but this requirement may be waived in a prison >setting when led by a Rabbi."
[snip]
And of course study is not prayer, so none of this applies at all.
Precisely. That appears to have been the warden's mistake: conflating
study and worship.
But there's another way of looking at it. She corresponded with Rabbi
Gary Friedman of the Jewish Prisoner Services Int'l, and he told her
that a minyan is not required for Tora/Talmud study conducted by a >qualified teacher. The warden may have seized on the latter, believing
it to be a requirement, rather than the minyan one. As stated in
Pirkei Avot 2:3: "Be careful with the government."
The good news is that the prison policy has been amended and an
outside "faith volunteer" is no longer required.
Good.
**Remember when I said that Xians think Judaism is just like Xianity >>except for Jesus. This is another example of that.
Full article at >>>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/02/29/justice-alito-on-discrimination-against-jewish-prison-inmates/
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 23:06:18 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov ><ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:07:19 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2005@bigfoot.com> said:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:58:26 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov >>><ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
Prof. Eugene Volokh reports:
----------------------------
This morning, the Supreme Court declined to hear Ben-Levi v. Brown,
but Justice Samuel Alito dissented, arguing that North Carolina
prisons had discriminated against the Jewish plaintiff prison inmate, >>>>in violation of the Free Exercise Clause.
Ben-Levi is serving a life sentence for a 1980 rape; at some point, he >>>>changed his name to Israel Ben-Levi, and either converted to Judaism
or rediscovered Judaism; he now wants to engage in group Torah study >>>>with two other inmates. North Carolina prisons generally allow group >>>>religious study; but for Jews they require either the presence of a >>>>rabbi or a minyan — 10 adult Jews. The minyan requirement stems from >>>>the prison system’s understanding of Jewish law.
This, Justice Alito argues, is impermissible religious discrimination >>>>against Jews, which violates the Free Exercise Clause: [...]
Alito's right.
And it takes a lot of nerve for the warden to think he understands >>>Judaism better than the Jew[s] do.
Alito's point is that such thoughts are irrelevant.
I know. He's right.
The warden's point
is that they have a Religious Practices Manual, which stated: "A
quorum (minyan) of ten (10) adult Jews is usually required to hold a
formal worship service, but this requirement may be waived in a prison >>setting when led by a Rabbi."
[snip]
And of course study is not prayer, so none of this applies at all.
Precisely. That appears to have been the warden's mistake: conflating
study and worship.
But there's another way of looking at it. She corresponded with Rabbi
Gary Friedman of the Jewish Prisoner Services Int'l, and he told her
that a minyan is not required for Tora/Talmud study conducted by a >>qualified teacher. The warden may have seized on the latter, believing
it to be a requirement, rather than the minyan one. As stated in
Pirkei Avot 2:3: "Be careful with the government."
The good news is that the prison policy has been amended and an
outside "faith volunteer" is no longer required.
Good.
**Remember when I said that Xians think Judaism is just like Xianity >>>except for Jesus. This is another example of that.
Full article at >>>>https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/02/29/justice-alito-on-discrimination-against-jewish-prison-inmates/
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:16:36 PM UTC-8, mm wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 23:06:18 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:07:19 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2005@bigfoot.com> said:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:58:26 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
Prof. Eugene Volokh reports:
----------------------------
This morning, the Supreme Court declined to hear Ben-Levi v. Brown,
but Justice Samuel Alito dissented, arguing that North Carolina
prisons had discriminated against the Jewish plaintiff prison inmate,
in violation of the Free Exercise Clause.
Ben-Levi is serving a life sentence for a 1980 rape; at some point, he
changed his name to Israel Ben-Levi, and either converted to Judaism
or rediscovered Judaism; he now wants to engage in group Torah study
with two other inmates. North Carolina prisons generally allow group
religious study; but for Jews they require either the presence of a
rabbi or a minyan -- 10 adult Jews. The minyan requirement stems from
the prison system's understanding of Jewish law.
This, Justice Alito argues, is impermissible religious discrimination
against Jews, which violates the Free Exercise Clause: [...]
Alito's right.
And it takes a lot of nerve for the warden to think he understands
Judaism better than the Jew[s] do.
It is plain anti semitism is sheep's clothing.
The prison's understanding of traditional Jewish law is wrong,
but there is another issue, Judaism is not limited to one
point of view.
What if Reformed Jews have different requirements? Does the prison
system get to decide who is a Jew and how a Jew must believe or practice?
On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 05:25:16 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowhertz@gmail.com> said:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:16:36 PM UTC-8, mm wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 23:06:18 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:07:19 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2005@bigfoot.com> said:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:58:26 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
Prof. Eugene Volokh reports:
----------------------------
This morning, the Supreme Court declined to hear Ben-Levi v. Brown,
but Justice Samuel Alito dissented, arguing that North Carolina
prisons had discriminated against the Jewish plaintiff prison inmate, >>> >>>in violation of the Free Exercise Clause.
Ben-Levi is serving a life sentence for a 1980 rape; at some point, he >>> >>>changed his name to Israel Ben-Levi, and either converted to Judaism
or rediscovered Judaism; he now wants to engage in group Torah study
with two other inmates. North Carolina prisons generally allow group
religious study; but for Jews they require either the presence of a
rabbi or a minyan -- 10 adult Jews. The minyan requirement stems from >>> >>>the prison system's understanding of Jewish law.
This, Justice Alito argues, is impermissible religious discrimination >>> >>>against Jews, which violates the Free Exercise Clause: [...]
Alito's right.
And it takes a lot of nerve for the warden to think he understands
Judaism better than the Jew[s] do.
[snip]
It is plain anti semitism is sheep's clothing.
I see no evidence for such a conclusion. The chaplain was trying to
serve and keep order as instructed by the Religious Practice Manual
(RPM). Before the Religious Practice Committee wrote the RPM's section >relating to Judaism, it "consulted with rabbis, experts, and
practitioners of Judaism." The chaplain consulted R' Friedman and he
told her that "In any case, someone who is not qualified would not be >permitted to lead Torah study in the community because it is so
complex." She had what to rely on, but J. Alito wrote that she had no >business making such a judgment in the first place.
The prison's understanding of traditional Jewish law is wrong,
And irrelevant.
but there is another issue, Judaism is not limited to one
point of view.
What if Reformed Jews have different requirements? Does the prison
system get to decide who is a Jew and how a Jew must believe or practice?
J. Alito's point was that it doesn't. He cited Holt v. Hobbs, in which
the Court rejected the argument that because not all Muslims believe
that growing a beard is a requirement, the particular inmate who did
so believe was not unduly burdened by the beard ban. IOW, he reminded
us of the long-standing jurisprudence that it's not the business of
the state to determine what any religion's requirements may be. That's >settled law.
I suspect that had the RPM not been changed to drop the minyan/rabbi >requirement, the Court would've taken the case.
On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 05:25:16 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowhertz@gmail.com> said:
On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 5:16:36 PM UTC-8, mm wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 23:06:18 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:07:19 +0000 (UTC), mm <mm2005@bigfoot.com> said:
On Tue, 1 Mar 2016 15:58:26 +0000 (UTC), Yisroel Markov
<ey.markov@MUNGiname.com> wrote:
Prof. Eugene Volokh reports:
----------------------------
This morning, the Supreme Court declined to hear Ben-Levi v. Brown,
but Justice Samuel Alito dissented, arguing that North Carolina
prisons had discriminated against the Jewish plaintiff prison inmate, >> >>>in violation of the Free Exercise Clause.
Ben-Levi is serving a life sentence for a 1980 rape; at some point, he >> >>>changed his name to Israel Ben-Levi, and either converted to Judaism
or rediscovered Judaism; he now wants to engage in group Torah study
with two other inmates. North Carolina prisons generally allow group
religious study; but for Jews they require either the presence of a
rabbi or a minyan -- 10 adult Jews. The minyan requirement stems from >> >>>the prison system's understanding of Jewish law.
This, Justice Alito argues, is impermissible religious discrimination >> >>>against Jews, which violates the Free Exercise Clause: [...]
Alito's right.
And it takes a lot of nerve for the warden to think he understands
Judaism better than the Jew[s] do.
[snip]
It is plain anti semitism is sheep's clothing.
I see no evidence for such a conclusion. The chaplain was trying to
serve and keep order as instructed by the Religious Practice Manual
(RPM). Before the Religious Practice Committee wrote the RPM's section relating to Judaism, it "consulted with rabbis, experts, and
practitioners of Judaism." The chaplain consulted R' Friedman and he
told her that "In any case, someone who is not qualified would not be permitted to lead Torah study in the community because it is so
complex." She had what to rely on, but J. Alito wrote that she had no business making such a judgment in the first place.
The prison's understanding of traditional Jewish law is wrong,
And irrelevant.
but there is another issue, Judaism is not limited to one
point of view.
What if Reformed Jews have different requirements? Does the prison
system get to decide who is a Jew and how a Jew must believe or practice?
J. Alito's point was that it doesn't. He cited Holt v. Hobbs, in which
the Court rejected the argument that because not all Muslims believe
that growing a beard is a requirement, the particular inmate who did
so believe was not unduly burdened by the beard ban. IOW, he reminded
us of the long-standing jurisprudence that it's not the business of
the state to determine what any religion's requirements may be. That's settled law.
I suspect that had the RPM not been changed to drop the minyan/rabbi requirement, the Court would've taken the case.
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC --------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 4:30:41 PM UTC-8, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote: >> On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
I completely disagree with everything you say. There are various branches
of Judaism and there are huge disagreements over who is a Jew. In Reform >Judaism there are a large group of Rabbis that believe in the concept of
"Jew by choice". Now, lot's of Orthodox will object strongly to it, but
prison officials have no right to decide who is a Jew.
"Jew by choice" is just what some consider a euphemism for "convert",
which word they have the strange notion is not a nice word. I don't
know where they got that idea, and they don't consider the possibility
that born-Jews wouldn't like the implication that the bulk of Jews are
Jews because we have no choice.
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 4:30:41 PM UTC-8, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
I completely disagree with everything you say. There are various branches
of Judaism and there are huge disagreements over who is a Jew. In Reform Judaism there are a large group of Rabbis that believe in the concept of
"Jew by choice". Now, lot's of Orthodox will object strongly to it, but prison officials have no right to decide who is a Jew.
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 04:49:59 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowhertz@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 4:30:41 PM UTC-8, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
I completely disagree with everything you say. There are various branches
Malcomn thinks he is an authority on many subjects he knows little
about. Especially, as you can see, he thinks he understands American
law, and he doesn't. I used to argue with him, to make sure others
didn't believe him, but there's no one here anymore who will believe
him, so I don't bother.
of Judaism and there are huge disagreements over who is a Jew. In Reform >Judaism there are a large group of Rabbis that believe in the concept of >"Jew by choice". Now, lot's of Orthodox will object strongly to it, but
Orthodox Jews in no way object to people choosing to be a Jew.
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 4:30:41 PM UTC-8, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote: >> On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
I completely disagree with everything you say. There are various branches
of Judaism and there are huge disagreements over who is a Jew. In Reform >Judaism there are a large group of Rabbis that believe in the concept of
"Jew by choice". Now, lot's of Orthodox will object strongly to it, but >prison officials have no right to decide who is a Jew.
On Sun, 6 Mar 2016 04:49:59 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowhertz@gmail.com> said:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 4:30:41 PM UTC-8, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
I completely disagree with everything you say. There are various branches >of Judaism and there are huge disagreements over who is a Jew. In Reform >Judaism there are a large group of Rabbis that believe in the concept of >"Jew by choice". Now, lot's of Orthodox will object strongly to it, but >prison officials have no right to decide who is a Jew.
Do you support Jewish self-determination, then? IOW, any inmate can
declare him/herself Jewish, demand accomodation in any way they think
is appropriate, and have the prison officials take them seriously? Or
do you support Shelly's approach of having the inmate "certified" by a representative of a "recognized branch" of Judaism, with all the
headaches *that* entails? Or some third way?
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC --------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
In the prison people can self declare,
A friend of my is chaplain at the 2
state prisons in Folsom. Anyone can come to him for counseling etc.. If they were able to get a minyan together only he would determine who would count for a minyan,.
malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
Any one can claim to be a Jew in the prison system Some may perfer the
TV dinners over the regular garbage.
Someone with a swastika tattoo can claim to be a Jew and meet with the
Jewish chaplain., (OF course the chaplain can request additional secuity,
Harry Weiss <hjweiss@panix.com> wrote on 08 Mar 2016 insnip
A friend of my is chaplain at the 2
state prisons in Folsom. Anyone can come to him for counseling etc.. If they were able to get a minyan together only he would determine who would count for a minyan,.
Who do you mean by "he"?
Whould this "he" also have a say in the required
minimum number of his minyan?
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 9:09:21 AM UTC-5, Evertjan. wrote:
Harry Weiss <hjweiss@panix.com> wrote on 08 Mar 2016 insnip
A friend of my is chaplain at the 2
state prisons in Folsom. Anyone can come to him for counseling etc..
If
they were able to get a minyan together only he would determine who
would count for a minyan,.
Who do you mean by "he"?
He means his friend the chaplain (referenced in the preceding sentence).
Would this "he" also have a say in the required
minimum number of his minyan?
He would have more than "a say." He would have the FINAL say.
In a free
society, nobody can be forced to participate in a prayer service against
his will. If Harry's friend doesn't believe that a kosher minyan is
present, he doesn't have any obligation to participate in that "minyan."
In fact, he would be halachically prohibited from participating in that "minyan." And not because he's the chaplain but because he's an Orthodox
So you mean a "Jewish chaplain"? Never heared that said this side of the big pond, is it US-military parlance? For me "chaplain" is christian. That was
my confusion.
On 3/5/2016 11:49 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 4:30:41 PM UTC-8, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
I completely disagree with everything you say. There are various branches of Judaism and there are huge disagreements over who is a Jew. In Reform Judaism there are a large group of Rabbis that believe in the concept of "Jew by choice". Now, lot's of Orthodox will object strongly to it, but prison officials have no right to decide who is a Jew.
Basically, I agree with you. It shouldn't be restricted to any one branch.
It reminds me of an episode of "Orange is the New Black". Several
inmates, mostly black, decided that they were to become Jewish. They did
this in order to get better meals because they didn't like the slop
served to them. The warden responded to this by bringing in a rabbi to
say whether or not they were for real. As it turned out one of them
really did wind up wanting to convert.
What I am saying is that all that need be done is for the warden to
bring in a rabbi from one of the recognized branches (which the prisoner could specify) to establish the sincerity of the claim. They could even stipulate that such a branch to be recognized by them needed, say, 500 members nationwide. That would rule out the crackpot stuff that Malcolm specified.
--
Shelly
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 9:09:21 AM UTC-5, Evertjan. wrote:to participate in that "minyan." In fact, he would be halachically prohibited from participating in that "minyan." And not because he's the chaplain but because he's an Orthodox Jew.
Harry Weiss <hjweiss@panix.com> wrote on 08 Mar 2016 insnip
A friend of my is chaplain at the 2
state prisons in Folsom. Anyone can come to him for counseling etc.. If they were able to get a minyan together only he would determine who would count for a minyan,.
Who do you mean by "he"?
He means his friend the chaplain (referenced in the preceding sentence).
Whould this "he" also have a say in the required
minimum number of his minyan?
He would have more than "a say." He would have the FINAL say. In a free society, nobody can be forced to participate in a prayer service against his will. If Harry's friend doesn't believe that a kosher minyan is present, he doesn't have any obligation
HTH.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.
Harry Weiss <hjweiss@panix.com> wrote on 08 Mar 2016 in soc.culture.jewish.moderated:
In the prison people can self declare,
Up to a point, [s]he cannot, if not true, declare "I am a Jew according to the orthodox/conservative movements and a paying member of this/that", I suppose, if that is not the case
A friend of my is chaplain at the 2
state prisons in Folsom. Anyone can come to him for counseling etc.. If they were able to get a minyan together only he would determine who would count for a minyan,.
Who do you mean by "he"? Whould this "he" also have a say in the required minimum number of his minyan?
Methinks the whole religion angle is overdone. Would that come from an religious believe in a constitution? Perhaps that is the curse of living in
a republic, I have no experience with that. ;-)
If the inmates want to have a regular meeting discussing "basketball under low gravity conditions" that should be made possible imho, unless it poses important security risks or/and is downright impractical. Wanting to have such weekly meetings "on a sunny mountain meadow" [or "in a space-ship"] would count as impractical.
btw: being in jail 46 years after a single criminal act is so extraordinary as seen from this side of the pond. The inmate must have a hell of a constitution himself and his personal religious delusions should be
forgiven.
--
Evertjan.
The Netherlands.
(Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:20:00 AM UTC-8, shel...@thevillages.net wrote:
On 3/5/2016 11:49 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 4:30:41 PM UTC-8, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah. >>>>>
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or >>>>> even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
I completely disagree with everything you say. There are various branches >>> of Judaism and there are huge disagreements over who is a Jew. In Reform >>> Judaism there are a large group of Rabbis that believe in the concept of >>> "Jew by choice". Now, lot's of Orthodox will object strongly to it, but >>> prison officials have no right to decide who is a Jew.
Basically, I agree with you. It shouldn't be restricted to any one branch. >>
It reminds me of an episode of "Orange is the New Black". Several
inmates, mostly black, decided that they were to become Jewish. They did
this in order to get better meals because they didn't like the slop
served to them. The warden responded to this by bringing in a rabbi to
say whether or not they were for real. As it turned out one of them
really did wind up wanting to convert.
What I am saying is that all that need be done is for the warden to
bring in a rabbi from one of the recognized branches (which the prisoner
could specify) to establish the sincerity of the claim. They could even
stipulate that such a branch to be recognized by them needed, say, 500
members nationwide. That would rule out the crackpot stuff that Malcolm
specified.
--
Shelly
Shelly,
I really enjoyed the episodes on Orange is the New Black.
As for the concept of Jews by Choice, it is somewhat different
than a conversion, and of course does not follow any orthodox law.
It is simply a person making a personal conviction that they have
decided to be a Jew. Of course they would not be recognized
as a valid conversion according to Orthodox law, but there
are many people that are members of reformed congregations or
affiliated with Jewish life that have not gone through a conversion
process or ceremony.
Of course, this means little accept for instances such as when a
warden decides who should be a Jew, and of course it effects
being accepted by law in Israel.
I do know Jews by choice, and in fact, they are enthusiastic,
involved but I know you wouldn't accept them as Jewish.
The real issue is that Judaism does not seek converts, with one
exception historically.
When the Macabees were fighting for Israel, they were demanding
inhabitants of Israel convert or leave. I was on a dig in Israel
of a non Jewish home from the period. Prior to leaving they destroyed everything they weren't taking as their home was 4 stories in the desert.
The top floor for living, the 2nd downstairs a pidgin coop, (the chicken
of the desert), another level below the ground for cool living, and finally
a bottom floor with an anchient yet still working olive press.
The third level was filled with debris as the family threw all their posession
into the level as a garbage dump, which of course was a great historical find.
It was fascinating to find there was ONE period where Jews sought converts.
On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:20:00 AM UTC-8, shel...@thevillages.net wrote: >> On 3/5/2016 11:49 PM, Beach Runner wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 4:30:41 PM UTC-8, malcolm...@btinternet.com wrote:
On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 12:46:30 AM UTC, Beach Runner wrote:
It has to be that way. Otherwise anyone can claim to be a Jew,
It's not up to a Prison manual to say who is qualified for a
Jew to decide who is qualified to teach them Torah.
Judaism has many branches and streams, and there are plenty of
Orthodox that would not allow a female ordained Rabbi to teach Torah.
I would be interested in learning points of view from anyone that
has spent years of study, regardless of their official positions, or
even if I agreed or disagreed completely with them.
and use the text on Rahav to make out that their branch of
Judaism mandates Torah study in the cell with a prostitute.
So the prison authorities are then obliged to arrange for this to
meet the prisoner's religious needs.
I completely disagree with everything you say. There are various branches >> > of Judaism and there are huge disagreements over who is a Jew. In Reform >> > Judaism there are a large group of Rabbis that believe in the concept of >> > "Jew by choice". Now, lot's of Orthodox will object strongly to it, but >> > prison officials have no right to decide who is a Jew.
Basically, I agree with you. It shouldn't be restricted to any one branch. >>
It reminds me of an episode of "Orange is the New Black". Several
inmates, mostly black, decided that they were to become Jewish. They did
this in order to get better meals because they didn't like the slop
served to them. The warden responded to this by bringing in a rabbi to
say whether or not they were for real. As it turned out one of them
really did wind up wanting to convert.
What I am saying is that all that need be done is for the warden to
bring in a rabbi from one of the recognized branches (which the prisoner
could specify) to establish the sincerity of the claim. They could even
stipulate that such a branch to be recognized by them needed, say, 500
members nationwide. That would rule out the crackpot stuff that Malcolm
specified.
--
Shelly
Shelly,
I really enjoyed the episodes on Orange is the New Black.
As for the concept of Jews by Choice, it is somewhat different
than a conversion, and of course does not follow any orthodox law.
It is simply a person making a personal conviction that they have
decided to be a Jew.
Of course they would not be recognized
as a valid conversion according to Orthodox law, but there
are many people that are members of reformed congregations or
affiliated with Jewish life that have not gone through a conversion
process or ceremony.
Of course, this means little accept for instances such as when a
warden decides who should be a Jew, and of course it effects
being accepted by law in Israel.
I do know Jews by choice, and in fact, they are enthusiastic,
involved but I know you wouldn't accept them as Jewish.
The real issue is that Judaism does not seek converts, with one
exception historically.
When the Macabees were fighting for Israel, they were demanding
inhabitants of Israel convert or leave. I was on a dig in Israel
of a non Jewish home from the period. Prior to leaving they destroyed >everything they weren't taking as their home was 4 stories in the desert.
The top floor for living, the 2nd downstairs a pidgin coop, (the chicken
of the desert), another level below the ground for cool living, and finally
a bottom floor with an anchient yet still working olive press.
The third level was filled with debris as the family threw all their posession >into the level as a garbage dump, which of course was a great historical find.
It was fascinating to find there was ONE period where Jews sought converts.
On 3/8/2016 5:38 PM, Evertjan. wrote:
So you mean a "Jewish chaplain"? Never heared that said this side of the big
pond, is it US-military parlance? For me "chaplain" is christian. That was my confusion.
Yes, it is. It has also become somewhat synonymous with clergyman which includes all religions (at least on this side of the pond).
cindys <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote on 08 Mar 2016 in
So you mean a "Jewish chaplain"? Never heared that said this side of the big pond, is it US-military parlance? For me "chaplain" is christian. That was
my confusion.
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 11:52:53 PM UTC, shel...@thevillages.net wrote: >> On 3/8/2016 5:38 PM, Evertjan. wrote:
In the UK too. There were certainly Jewish chaplains attached to British armed forces in WW2.So you mean a "Jewish chaplain"? Never heared that said this side of the big
pond, is it US-military parlance? For me "chaplain" is christian. That was >> > my confusion.
Yes, it is. It has also become somewhat synonymous with clergyman which
includes all religions (at least on this side of the pond).
Henry Goodman
It was fascinating to find there was ONE period where Jews sought converts.
In his Liber contra Judeos dedicated to King
Charles the Bald he let slip the revealing fact that Christians in
Lyons were attending synagogues instead of churches because the Jewish
rabbis 'preach better than our priests.'"
On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 01:34:42 +0000 (UTC), Beach Runner
<lowhertz@gmail.com> said:
[snip]
It was fascinating to find there was ONE period where Jews sought converts.
There was at least one more. There were Judaizing Romans. Then there
was this:
"Agobard, archbishop of Lyons from 816 to 840, wrote several pamphlets
which leave one in no doubt concerning his anxieties about Jewish proselytizing among Christians... He was worried about Jewish
proselytizing in southern Gaul, especially in the regions of Narbonne
and his own Lyons... As he pointed out in a letter to Archbishop
Nebridius of Narbonne, peasants were being seduced into Judaism as
well as townspeople... Agobard's successor at Lyons, Amolus, shared
these apprehensions. In his Liber contra Judeos dedicated to King
Charles the Bald he let slip the revealing fact that Christians in
Lyons were attending synagogues instead of churches because the Jewish
rabbis 'preach better than our priests.'"
(From The Barbarian Conversion by Richard Fletcher)
Also, one can track the laws enacted to prohibit conversion to Judaism
on the assumption that they were passed to deal with a noticeable
"problem." (I haven't.)
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC --------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 10:31:11 PM UTC, Evertjan. wrote:
cindys <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote on 08 Mar 2016 in
So you mean a "Jewish chaplain"? Never heared that said this side of the big
pond, is it US-military parlance? For me "chaplain" is christian. That was my confusion.
It's basically a Christian term.
The "church" is the main building in the parish, a chapel is a subsidiary building
where services are also held - often if the parish was large a "chapel of ease"
was built to reduce the amount of time the congregation had to travel, or a rich man might have his own private chapel attached to his house.
So if the chapel has a priest dedicated to it, that priest is not the parish priest,
but the "chaplain". He's got fewer rights and responsibilities than the parish priest
because he doesn't have a patch of territory which is his.
Often a chaplain would be attached to a hospital or a prison or a military unit,> and receive a stipend from the institution. The word then got extended to
Christian denominations that don't have a concept of parishes, and to non- Christian clergy employed in a similar capacity.
To respond to several notes, unfortunately I can not recall the dig
I was on. It was part of a 14 day "Bar Mitzvah Tour" which included
a collection bar and bat Mitzvahs being held in the oldest temple that
still exists, at Massadah. Of course, there were only walls left.
A lot of the people on the tour were not there for the Bar Mitzvah of >relatives, they just sent on the tour, which was wonderful. Highly >recommended and very educational. Masada is something every Jew should
see, truly living history. You can still see the ramp built by the Roman >over several years to capture the fort. There are the remains of many >buildings. The Roman's were so insane they
spent years trying to capture a small group of Jewish zealots.
The IDF used to have a graduation ceremony at Masada, such as my cousin >attended, climbing it by foot rather than cable cars, but they stopped
as they don't want the end of suicide by Jews honored in this way.
I was wrong about conversions had to be Orthodox, even outside of Israel.
Is this a law that has changed in he last few decades and I out of date
or just plain wrong?
I was also surprised about other cases of Jews proselytizing. Somehow
I think early Christians don't really count but recognize the argument,
the other story I was unaware of.
That dig was from 1997, a great time in Israel, we thought peace and a two >state solution was just around the corner. You could safely walk in Arab villages and all they wanted to do is sell you tee shirts of with Arabs, Jews,
Christians and others dancing together. The Palestinians sure never miss
an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
I'm sure new tours have new digs or you can find ongoing ones. There's no >shortage of them.
malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 10:31:11 PM UTC, Evertjan. wrote:
cindys <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote on 08 Mar 2016 inIt's basically a Christian term.
So you mean a "Jewish chaplain"? Never heared that said this side of the big
pond, is it US-military parlance? For me "chaplain" is christian. That was >> > my confusion.
The "church" is the main building in the parish, a chapel is a subsidiary building
where services are also held - often if the parish was large a "chapel of ease"
was built to reduce the amount of time the congregation had to travel, or a >> rich man might have his own private chapel attached to his house.
So if the chapel has a priest dedicated to it, that priest is not the parish priest,
but the "chaplain". He's got fewer rights and responsibilities than the parish priest
because he doesn't have a patch of territory which is his.
Many synagogoues has a small room attached. In O it is usally called a
Bet Midrsh
On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 02:03:44 +0000 (UTC), Harry Weiss
<hjweiss@panix.com> said:
malcolm.mclean5@btinternet.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 10:31:11 PM UTC, Evertjan. wrote:
cindys <cstein1@rochester.rr.com> wrote on 08 Mar 2016 inIt's basically a Christian term.
So you mean a "Jewish chaplain"? Never heared that said this side of the big
pond, is it US-military parlance? For me "chaplain" is christian. That was
my confusion.
The "church" is the main building in the parish, a chapel is a subsidiary building
where services are also held - often if the parish was large a "chapel of ease"
was built to reduce the amount of time the congregation had to travel, or a >>> rich man might have his own private chapel attached to his house.
So if the chapel has a priest dedicated to it, that priest is not the parish priest,
but the "chaplain". He's got fewer rights and responsibilities than the parish priest
because he doesn't have a patch of territory which is his.
Many synagogoues has a small room attached. In O it is usally called a
Bet Midrsh
Because it usually *is* a library and used for studying when not
praying. Usually, the only books in the main shul are siddurs and
humashim.
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