• =?UTF-8?Q?Bombing_Kyiv_Into_Submission=3F_History_Says_It_Won=E2=80=99?

    From David P.@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 11 23:27:43 2022
    Bombing Kyiv Into Submission? History Says It Won’t Work.
    By Max Fisher, Oct. 11, 2022, NY Times

    President Putin of Russia, in ordering missile strikes on Kyiv and other Ukrainian cities, follows a long line of wartime leaders who have sought to cow their adversaries by bombing enemy capitals.

    Ever since Nazi Germany’s bombardment of London in WWII, enabled by the first long-range missiles and warplanes, nearly every major war has featured similar attacks.

    The goal is almost always the same: to coerce the targeted country’s leaders into scaling back their war effort or suing for peace.

    It typically aims to achieve this by forcing those leaders to ask whether the capital’s cultural landmarks and economic functioning are worth putting on the line — and also, especially, by terrorizing the country’s population into moderating their
    support for the war.

    But for as long as leaders have pursued this tactic, they have watched it repeatedly fail.

    More than that, such strikes tend to backfire, deepening the political and public resolve for war that they are meant to erode — even galvanizing the attacked country into stepping up its war aims.

    The victorious allies in WWII did emphasize a strategy of heavily bombing cities, which is part of why countries have come to repeat this so many times since. Cities including Dresden and Tokyo were devastated, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians
    and forcing millions into homelessness.

    Still, historians generally now argue that, even if that did play some role in exhausting those countries, it was largely because of damage to German and Japanese industrial output rather than the terror it caused. Axis countries were also aggressive in
    bombing enemy cities, casting further doubt on notions that the strategy could be a decisive factor on its own.

    And any WWII lessons may be of limited utility in understanding the wars that came after, as countries quickly learned from that conflict to move military production away from city centers. Tellingly, such bombing has seldom worked since.

    American war planners discovered this in the Korean War, when bombing Pyongyang only hardened the North’s commitment. A decade later, they tried it again in Vietnam. But an internal Pentagon report concluded that striking Hanoi, the North Vietnamese
    capital, had been “in retrospect, a colossal misjudgment.”

    Iran and Iraq struck each other’s capitals during their 80s conflict to try to force one side to back down. Instead, both nations were rallied by watching foreign bombs fall on civilian neighborhoods, helping to stretch the war to nearly a decade.

    Insurgent groups have likewise adapted this tactic, to little more success.

    Northern Irish groups struck repeatedly in London, hoping to dispel British commitment to the territory. Instead, the bombings led to more severe measures by British authorities in Northern Ireland. Palestinian groups that ignited bus and cafe bombs in
    Israeli cities during a period of conflict in the 2000s found much the same result.

    Al Qaeda’s justification for the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks has shifted, but the group has said that one aim was to compel American withdrawal from the Middle East. But Americans, rather than rising up against their country’s overseas deployments
    as Al Qaeda leaders had hoped, rallied in support of invading Afghanistan and then Iraq.

    Though each conflict is different, this pattern is not a coincidence, but is explained by the politics as well as the psychology of warfare. And both appear to apply in Russia’s war in Ukraine.

    Capital strikes intended to push a government toward conciliation or retreat instead do much to close off those options.

    In practice, such attacks tell targeted leaders that they, and perhaps the very existence of their government, will not be secure until they eliminate the threat through outright victory. They will tend to escalate in response, rather than back down as
    their attackers hope.

    And a negotiated peace, like the one Mr. Putin has urged, becomes harder for those leaders to enter because it means accepting that the threat to the capital will remain.

    The public will often reach the same calculus, coming to see their attacker as an implacable threat that can only be neutralized through defeat.

    The stiffening resolve inspired by such strikes can be equal parts strategic and emotional.

    German rocket and air attacks on British cities during WWII, known as the Blitz, aimed to degrade British production as well as public support for the war, so that Britain would agree to withdraw from the conflict.

    And German leaders had hoped that turning whole blocks of London into rubble would inspire Britons to turn against the leaders who insisted on staying in the war. But British approval of their government rose to near 90 percent.

    The United States has stumbled on this effect several times, but perhaps most powerfully in the Korean and Vietnam Wars, when it sought to force back its Communist adversaries by bombing their towns and cities. Instead, the campaigns convinced those
    governments, as well as their populations, that they could only be safe by defeating the Americans for good, whatever the cost.

    Washington was seeking to reproduce its victories in WWII, which came after laying waste to German and Japanese cities from the air. Though the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were once widely thought to have terrified Japan into surrender,
    some historians have since cast doubt on that view.

    In Vietnam, American forces began bombing northern cities in 1966 with the explicit goals of “deterioration of popular morale” and to “put pressure on the Hanoi leadership to terminate the war,” according to a 1972 Congressional review of
    Pentagon documents.

    Instead, the strikes helped lock Northern Vietnamese leaders into a strategy of expelling the Americans who were dropping bombs on their cities, Pentagon officials concluded privately.

    The attacks also so angered North Vietnam’s allies in Moscow and Beijing that those countries increased their military aid beyond what the bombers had destroyed, Pentagon analysts said.

    And the more damage that the strikes caused, whether economic or human in toll, the deeper became the Northern Vietnamese public’s commitment — to both the war and the Communist government.

    A C.I.A. report 3 years into the bombing campaign found “substantial evidence” that the North Vietnamese public “found the hardships of the war more tolerable when it faced daily dangers from the bombing than when this threat was removed.”

    This may seem counterintuitive. But seeing a foreign enemy crater one’s hometown or neighborhood with airborne explosives can produce a rally-around-the-flag effect so profound as to offset even the exhaustion of living in daily peril.

    Such attacks might even be said to radicalize the very populations they are meant to terrorize.

    This played out during the Second Intifada, a conflict between the Israeli military and Palestinian groups in the 2000s. Terrorist bombings in Israeli cities were intended to pressure Israelis to ease or end their country’s occupation of Palestinian
    territories.

    But research conducted during the conflict found that each bombing instead increased votes for right-wing parties, which ran on militarily escalating the conflict, by 1.35 percentage points.

    Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli cities — perhaps a closer parallel to Putin’s strikes on Ukraine — were, in subsequent years, found to boost hard-line political candidates by as much as six percentage points.

    The effect likely runs deeper than policy preferences. Psychological studies found that rocket and bomb attacks on Israeli cities made Jewish Israelis feel a greater sense of solidarity with one another — rallying not just around their flag, but their
    identity.

    The strikes also made Jewish Israelis in those areas more willing to support harsher policies toward the Palestinians, preferring outright victory to accommodation or compromise.

    There is another way that strikes like Putin’s this week can heighten a country’s military commitment and lessen its willingness to compromise.

    When fighting is restricted to the front lines, a war might be experienced very differently by the general population than by soldiers and leaders.

    This may be the case in Russia itself. Even as backlash to the war and fear of conscription visibly rise there, for much of the country it is an abstraction experienced through sunny and selective state media reports. It might make a war easier to bear,
    but also to consider an unwelcome burden, particularly as economic tolls and other costs rise.

    But attacks on residential districts erase distinctions between soldiers and civilians. Londoners in the Blitz described feeling deep solidarity with British soldiers overseas, leading many to organize in the war’s support rather than asking their
    leaders to back down.

    This sense of society-wide solidarity can also deepen peoples’ willingness to bear a long and costly struggle for victory, along with their belief that there may be no surer path to safety.

    Ukrainian families afflicted by Russian bombs, which have brought the front lines to their very homes, have described feeling much the same.

    Strikes like Putin’s have backfired so consistently in modern warfare that some analysts have wondered whether his aims might be focused, at least in part, more at home: appeasing frustrated Russian hard-liners. But, if history is any guide, those
    critics’ may find that their dissatisfaction with the war’s progress is only deepened by Monday’s attacks.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/11/world/europe/russia-ukraine-kyiv-bombing.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From stoney@21:1/5 to David P. on Wed Oct 12 02:20:55 2022
    On Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 2:27:45 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:
    Bombing Kyiv Into Submission? History Says It Won’t Work.
    By Max Fisher, Oct. 11, 2022, NY Times

    President Putin of Russia, in ordering missile strikes on Kyiv and other Ukrainian cities, follows a long line of wartime leaders who have sought to cow their adversaries by bombing enemy capitals.

    Ever since Nazi Germany’s bombardment of London in WWII, enabled by the first long-range missiles and warplanes, nearly every major war has featured similar attacks.

    The goal is almost always the same: to coerce the targeted country’s leaders into scaling back their war effort or suing for peace.

    It typically aims to achieve this by forcing those leaders to ask whether the capital’s cultural landmarks and economic functioning are worth putting on the line — and also, especially, by terrorizing the country’s population into moderating
    their support for the war.

    But for as long as leaders have pursued this tactic, they have watched it repeatedly fail.

    More than that, such strikes tend to backfire, deepening the political and public resolve for war that they are meant to erode — even galvanizing the attacked country into stepping up its war aims.

    The victorious allies in WWII did emphasize a strategy of heavily bombing cities, which is part of why countries have come to repeat this so many times since. Cities including Dresden and Tokyo were devastated, killing hundreds of thousands of
    civilians and forcing millions into homelessness.

    Still, historians generally now argue that, even if that did play some role in exhausting those countries, it was largely because of damage to German and Japanese industrial output rather than the terror it caused. Axis countries were also aggressive
    in bombing enemy cities, casting further doubt on notions that the strategy could be a decisive factor on its own.

    And any WWII lessons may be of limited utility in understanding the wars that came after, as countries quickly learned from that conflict to move military production away from city centers. Tellingly, such bombing has seldom worked since.

    American war planners discovered this in the Korean War, when bombing Pyongyang only hardened the North’s commitment. A decade later, they tried it again in Vietnam. But an internal Pentagon report concluded that striking Hanoi, the North Vietnamese
    capital, had been “in retrospect, a colossal misjudgment.”

    Iran and Iraq struck each other’s capitals during their 80s conflict to try to force one side to back down. Instead, both nations were rallied by watching foreign bombs fall on civilian neighborhoods, helping to stretch the war to nearly a decade.

    Insurgent groups have likewise adapted this tactic, to little more success.

    Northern Irish groups struck repeatedly in London, hoping to dispel British commitment to the territory. Instead, the bombings led to more severe measures by British authorities in Northern Ireland. Palestinian groups that ignited bus and cafe bombs in
    Israeli cities during a period of conflict in the 2000s found much the same result.

    Al Qaeda’s justification for the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks has shifted, but the group has said that one aim was to compel American withdrawal from the Middle East. But Americans, rather than rising up against their country’s overseas
    deployments as Al Qaeda leaders had hoped, rallied in support of invading Afghanistan and then Iraq.

    Though each conflict is different, this pattern is not a coincidence, but is explained by the politics as well as the psychology of warfare. And both appear to apply in Russia’s war in Ukraine.

    Capital strikes intended to push a government toward conciliation or retreat instead do much to close off those options.

    In practice, such attacks tell targeted leaders that they, and perhaps the very existence of their government, will not be secure until they eliminate the threat through outright victory. They will tend to escalate in response, rather than back down as
    their attackers hope.

    And a negotiated peace, like the one Mr. Putin has urged, becomes harder for those leaders to enter because it means accepting that the threat to the capital will remain.

    The public will often reach the same calculus, coming to see their attacker as an implacable threat that can only be neutralized through defeat.

    The stiffening resolve inspired by such strikes can be equal parts strategic and emotional.

    German rocket and air attacks on British cities during WWII, known as the Blitz, aimed to degrade British production as well as public support for the war, so that Britain would agree to withdraw from the conflict.

    And German leaders had hoped that turning whole blocks of London into rubble would inspire Britons to turn against the leaders who insisted on staying in the war. But British approval of their government rose to near 90 percent.

    The United States has stumbled on this effect several times, but perhaps most powerfully in the Korean and Vietnam Wars, when it sought to force back its Communist adversaries by bombing their towns and cities. Instead, the campaigns convinced those
    governments, as well as their populations, that they could only be safe by defeating the Americans for good, whatever the cost.

    Washington was seeking to reproduce its victories in WWII, which came after laying waste to German and Japanese cities from the air. Though the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were once widely thought to have terrified Japan into surrender,
    some historians have since cast doubt on that view.

    In Vietnam, American forces began bombing northern cities in 1966 with the explicit goals of “deterioration of popular morale” and to “put pressure on the Hanoi leadership to terminate the war,” according to a 1972 Congressional review of
    Pentagon documents.

    Instead, the strikes helped lock Northern Vietnamese leaders into a strategy of expelling the Americans who were dropping bombs on their cities, Pentagon officials concluded privately.

    The attacks also so angered North Vietnam’s allies in Moscow and Beijing that those countries increased their military aid beyond what the bombers had destroyed, Pentagon analysts said.

    And the more damage that the strikes caused, whether economic or human in toll, the deeper became the Northern Vietnamese public’s commitment — to both the war and the Communist government.

    A C.I.A. report 3 years into the bombing campaign found “substantial evidence” that the North Vietnamese public “found the hardships of the war more tolerable when it faced daily dangers from the bombing than when this threat was removed.”

    This may seem counterintuitive. But seeing a foreign enemy crater one’s hometown or neighborhood with airborne explosives can produce a rally-around-the-flag effect so profound as to offset even the exhaustion of living in daily peril.

    Such attacks might even be said to radicalize the very populations they are meant to terrorize.

    This played out during the Second Intifada, a conflict between the Israeli military and Palestinian groups in the 2000s. Terrorist bombings in Israeli cities were intended to pressure Israelis to ease or end their country’s occupation of Palestinian
    territories.

    But research conducted during the conflict found that each bombing instead increased votes for right-wing parties, which ran on militarily escalating the conflict, by 1.35 percentage points.

    Palestinian rocket attacks on Israeli cities — perhaps a closer parallel to Putin’s strikes on Ukraine — were, in subsequent years, found to boost hard-line political candidates by as much as six percentage points.

    The effect likely runs deeper than policy preferences. Psychological studies found that rocket and bomb attacks on Israeli cities made Jewish Israelis feel a greater sense of solidarity with one another — rallying not just around their flag, but
    their identity.

    The strikes also made Jewish Israelis in those areas more willing to support harsher policies toward the Palestinians, preferring outright victory to accommodation or compromise.

    There is another way that strikes like Putin’s this week can heighten a country’s military commitment and lessen its willingness to compromise.

    When fighting is restricted to the front lines, a war might be experienced very differently by the general population than by soldiers and leaders.

    This may be the case in Russia itself. Even as backlash to the war and fear of conscription visibly rise there, for much of the country it is an abstraction experienced through sunny and selective state media reports. It might make a war easier to bear,
    but also to consider an unwelcome burden, particularly as economic tolls and other costs rise.

    But attacks on residential districts erase distinctions between soldiers and civilians. Londoners in the Blitz described feeling deep solidarity with British soldiers overseas, leading many to organize in the war’s support rather than asking their
    leaders to back down.

    This sense of society-wide solidarity can also deepen peoples’ willingness to bear a long and costly struggle for victory, along with their belief that there may be no surer path to safety.

    Ukrainian families afflicted by Russian bombs, which have brought the front lines to their very homes, have described feeling much the same.

    Strikes like Putin’s have backfired so consistently in modern warfare that some analysts have wondered whether his aims might be focused, at least in part, more at home: appeasing frustrated Russian hard-liners. But, if history is any guide, those
    critics’ may find that their dissatisfaction with the war’s progress is only deepened by Monday’s attacks.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/11/world/europe/russia-ukraine-kyiv-bombing.html

    When in war, there is work or not work. It can go on until there is a stop by either side. Old weapons and new weapons don't matter as long as they can deliver to destroy targets. Most important is the tenanciousity of achieving its goals.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oleg Smirnov@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 18 18:16:47 2022
    Bombing Kyiv Into Submission? History Says It Won't Work.
    By Max Fisher, Oct. 11, 2022, NY Times

    President Putin of Russia, in ordering missile strikes on Kyiv and other Ukrainian cities, follows a long line of wartime leaders who have sought to cow their adversaries by bombing enemy capitals.

    The victorious allies in WWII did emphasize a strategy of heavily bombing cities, which is part of why countries have come to repeat this so many
    times since. Cities including Dresden and Tokyo were devastated, killing hundreds of thousands of civilians and forcing millions into homelessness.

    Still, historians generally now argue that, even if that did play some role in exhausting those countries, it was largely because of damage to German
    and Japanese industrial output rather than the terror it caused.

    Distortion of history is quite a typical Western occupation since
    at least the Age of Enlightenment, so now here's a sly effort to
    whitewash the bombing of Dresden and nuking of Japan during the
    WW2 combined with an effort to contrast it to the recently changed
    tactics of the Russia's military in the Ukraine-related campaign.

    One should be less prone to the bogus narratives promoted by the
    fake news media (including the NYT) and more attentive to the dry
    facts. The NYT article is dated Oct. 11, and by the time it was
    known that since Oct. 10 morning, the Russia's military had sent
    about 100 or more cruise missiles and dozens of drones intended to
    damage various infrastructure facilities related to the regime's
    military and industrial output (in response to the sabotage attack
    on the Crimean bridge, that besides the damage to the very bridge
    also killed four random civilians there).

    October 11, midday, Kiev reported that, because of these strikes,
    about 120 facilities have been damaged and about two dozen people
    killed (without specifying whether they are military or civilians) <https://archive.is/R4NGd>. Of course, there's nothing positive
    in destruction and death, but - on the other hand - how could one
    compare it with "killing hundreds of thousands of civilians"?
    If the Russian military deliberately targeted civilians than just
    a single missile hitting an apartment building properly would be
    enough to kill dozens.

    One who follows the news might notice the Russian military make
    major missile strikes at early morning. And one of the reasons for
    that is that it's the time when there's a minimal probability for
    random people to be inside or near the targeted facilities. But
    even the high precision missiles and drones can produce collateral
    damage among civilians. When air defenses try to intercept them,
    it's not a binary result (has intercepted or has not intercepted).
    An unsuccessful interception attempt can still cause a missile to
    deviate and hit something what was not intended. A successful
    interception can produce dangerous debris which then fall and hit
    something what was not intended. These options aren't the only.

    Dozen is comparable to the number of deaths that happened due to
    traffic accidents daily throughout the whole Ukraine in 2021. Also,
    one American outlet, in August, managed to discover that "the rate
    of civilian deaths caused by the war in Ukraine lags behind murder
    rates in most major American cities" <https://archive.is/G2LSh>.
    Once again, there's nothing positive in any deaths / destructions,
    whatever the scale, but on the other hand, the narrative pushed by
    the Kiev's and Atlanticist propaganda that the Russian military
    seeks to kill civilians (out of desperation and just due to their
    genocidal zeal) is clearly bogus and absolutely doesn't hold water
    against the known figures and numbers.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From A. Filip@21:1/5 to David P. on Tue Oct 18 18:01:26 2022
    "David P." <imbibe@mindspring.com> wrote:
    Bombing Kyiv Into Submission? History Says It Won’t Work.
    By Max Fisher, Oct. 11, 2022, NY Times

    President Putin of Russia, in ordering missile strikes on Kyiv and
    other Ukrainian cities, follows a long line of wartime leaders who
    have sought to cow their adversaries by bombing enemy capitals.

    Ever since Nazi Germany’s bombardment of London in WWII, enabled by
    the first long-range missiles and warplanes, nearly every major war
    has featured similar attacks.
    […]
    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/11/world/europe/russia-ukraine-kyiv-bombing.html

    Do not forget The Tokyo Fire Storm by USAF. [A]
    Isn't it the historic record proudly held by USA?

    [A] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
    The Bombing of Tokyo was a series of firebombing air raids by the
    United States Army Air Force during the Pacific campaigns of World War
    II. Operation Meetinghouse, which was conducted on the night of 9–10
    March 1945, is the single most destructive bombing raid in human
    history.[1] 16 square miles (41 km2; 10,000 acres) of central Tokyo
    were destroyed, leaving an estimated 100,000 civilians dead and over
    one million homeless.[1]

    --
    A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
    | Mausoleum: The final and funniest folly of the rich.
    | (Ambrose Bierce)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From A. Filip@21:1/5 to Oleg Smirnov on Tue Oct 18 18:15:23 2022
    "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu> wrote:
    Bombing Kyiv Into Submission? History Says It Won't Work.
    By Max Fisher, Oct. 11, 2022, NY Times

    President Putin of Russia, in ordering missile strikes on Kyiv and other
    Ukrainian cities, follows a long line of wartime leaders who have sought to >> cow their adversaries by bombing enemy capitals.

    The victorious allies in WWII did emphasize a strategy of heavily bombing
    cities, which is part of why countries have come to repeat this so many
    times since. Cities including Dresden and Tokyo were devastated, killing
    hundreds of thousands of civilians and forcing millions into homelessness. >>
    Still, historians generally now argue that, even if that did play some role >> in exhausting those countries, it was largely because of damage to German
    and Japanese industrial output rather than the terror it caused.
    […]

    Distortion of history is quite a typical Western occupation since at
    least the Age of Enlightenment, so now here's a sly effort to
    whitewash the bombing of Dresden and nuking of Japan during the
    WW2 combined with an effort to contrast it to the recently changed
    tactics of the Russia's military in the Ukraine-related campaign.

    One should be less prone to the bogus narratives promoted by the
    fake news media (including the NYT) and more attentive to the dry
    facts. The NYT article is dated Oct. 11, and by the time it was
    known that since Oct. 10 morning, the Russia's military had sent
    about 100 or more cruise missiles and dozens of drones intended to
    damage various infrastructure facilities related to the regime's
    military and industrial output (in response to the sabotage attack
    on the Crimean bridge, that besides the damage to the very bridge also
    killed four random civilians there).

    October 11, midday, Kiev reported that, because of these strikes,
    about 120 facilities have been damaged and about two dozen people
    killed (without specifying whether they are military or civilians) <https://archive.is/R4NGd>. Of course, there's nothing positive
    in destruction and death, but - on the other hand - how could one
    compare it with "killing hundreds of thousands of civilians"? If the
    Russian military deliberately targeted civilians than just
    a single missile hitting an apartment building properly would be
    enough to kill dozens.

    One who follows the news might notice the Russian military make
    major missile strikes at early morning. And one of the reasons for
    that is that it's the time when there's a minimal probability for
    random people to be inside or near the targeted facilities. But
    even the high precision missiles and drones can produce collateral
    damage among civilians. When air defenses try to intercept them, it's
    not a binary result (has intercepted or has not intercepted). An
    unsuccessful interception attempt can still cause a missile to deviate
    and hit something what was not intended. A successful interception can produce dangerous debris which then fall and hit
    something what was not intended. These options aren't the only.

    Dozen is comparable to the number of deaths that happened due to
    traffic accidents daily throughout the whole Ukraine in 2021. Also,
    one American outlet, in August, managed to discover that "the rate of civilian deaths caused by the war in Ukraine lags behind murder rates
    in most major American cities" <https://archive.is/G2LSh>. Once again, there's nothing positive in any deaths / destructions, whatever the
    scale, but on the other hand, the narrative pushed by the Kiev's and Atlanticist propaganda that the Russian military
    seeks to kill civilians (out of desperation and just due to their
    genocidal zeal) is clearly bogus and absolutely doesn't hold water
    against the known figures and numbers.

    Mistakes in target identification happen too *sometimes* .
    See PRC embassy in 1999 [A] and "a few" weddings in Afghanistan.
    Do your expect Russia to be better than super high US standards?
    Shame on you.

    [A] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade

    --
    A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
    | "There's only one way to have a happy marriage and as soon as I
    | learn what it is I'll get married again." (Clint Eastwood)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)