• Ukrainian Clergy Say Russian Occupiers Target Them With Threats, Violen

    From David P.@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 19 13:02:46 2022
    Ukrainian Clergy Say Russian Occupiers Target Them With Threats, Violence
    By Ian Lovett, Aug. 13, 2022, WSJ

    KROPYVNYTSKIY, Ukraine—The Russian soldiers who showed up at Rev. Sergey Chudinovich’s church put a bag over his head, took him to the police station, then made him an offer.

    Let us distribute aid at your church, they said, which is located in Russian-occupied Kherson in the south of Ukraine. Or make a video telling residents to accept Russian aid.

    Fr. Chudinovich refused. The Russians tied him up, tossed him in the basement and tortured him for the next two days, he said.

    In Russian-occupied parts of Ukraine, clergy members are targets.

    Dozens of priests from the Orthodox Church of Ukraine, the country’s largest denomination, have been kidnapped or killed since the invasion began, according to church officials. Still more pastors from other denominations have been chased from their
    pulpits and imprisoned. Some have had their church property seized. One priest trying to leave occupied territory was asked whether he knew several other clergy members in the region.

    The Russians have accused detained clergy of organizing protests, working as U.S. agents or aiding the Ukrainian military. But as Moscow worked to consolidate its hold on occupied territory, priests say it was their influence within the local population
    that made them targets for Russians to try to turn to their side—or eliminate.

    “They’ve tried to find those who have power and authority among the local people—who are able to be leaders of resistance,” said Archbishop Evstratiy of Chernihiv, a spokesman for the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. “Clergy of the Ukrainian church,
    unfortunately, are in the first row.”

    Russia has made religion a central pillar of its war effort. Patriarch Kirill, leader of the Russian Orthodox Church, has called the war a metaphysical conflict between the faithful of God and a decadent West. Both he and Russian President Vladimir Putin
    have assailed the establishment of the autonomous Orthodox Church of Ukraine in 2019 as a devious Western scheme to divide the two countries. The new church quickly overtook the local arm of the Russian Orthodox Church as the most popular.

    Archbishop Evstratiy said the hunt for Ukrainian Orthodox priests began in the first days of the war.

    In the Kyiv suburb of Bucha, he said, neighbors of one priest said Russians showed up at his house asking for him the same day they arrived in town. The priest had already fled, Archbishop Evstratiy said, but another priest in the town was killed at a
    checkpoint.

    In Ivankiv, north of Kyiv, a priest wearing his cassock was pulled out of his car and shot at a checkpoint where his body lay for several days, Ukrainian Orthodox officials said.

    In Bohdanivka, a village east of the capital, Russian troops put bullet holes through a cross along the main road, and broke another cross inside Rev. Antoniy Pyasetskiy’s Orthodox church. Fr. Pyasetskiy, who fought in the Soviet army in Afghanistan,
    said he and another priest were detained while checking on a local resident. The soldiers told them to strip and searched them for tattoos in the street, beat them and forced them to walk two hours to a Russian base.

    When allowed to leave later that day, Fr. Pyasetskiy said he had several teeth missing. The other priest, who had been beaten so severely that Fr. Pyasetskiy said his face was unrecognizable, had to walk home naked.

    “They kept saying, ‘Where is your God? Why isn’t he helping you,’” Fr. Pyasetskiy said of the soldiers. “It was just a show of disrespect to damage the cross.”

    Ukrainian clergy from other denominations have also run afoul of Russian forces—particularly in the south, which has now been occupied for five months. Many of their encounters with the Russians began with an alleged transgression and ended with
    demands to collaborate.

    Viktor Sergeev, the pastor of a Pentecostal Baptist church in Melitopol, said dozens of soldiers woke him around 5 a.m. one day in early March and pulled him, his adult sons and some neighbors from their homes.

    The soldiers battered their way into the church where they interrogated them and smashed the windows. They asked whether the men had helped organize anti-Russian protests and where they got money for the church—a large building with a recording studio
    and a gymnasium—and insisted they must be getting funding from foreigners.

    “The Russians said, ‘You’re an American sect. You train partisans here. Sects like yours are illegal in Russia,’” Mr. Sergeev said.

    Mr. Sergeev told them he had only held prayer vigils for peace at his church, but they had more demands. They asked him to make a video in front of the church chanting “Russia, Russia,” plus another video criticizing the Ukrainian government. They
    also asked for a list of businessmen who came to the church. Mr. Sergeev said he would.

    “The Russians realize we can influence people—that we’re opinion leaders in the city,” said Mr. Sergeev, whose church had 1,500 members before the war. “They were looking for us to collaborate.”

    Two days later, the mayor of Melitopol, a southern port city in the Zaporizhzhia region, was detained by Russians. The Sergeev family fled to Ukrainian-held territory the next day, without recording a video.

    In late July, a group of Russians showed up at the church and told the people there that it was illegal and that the building was being seized, Mr. Sergeev said.

    In the first month of the war, Fr. Chudinovich turned his Kherson church into a local aid center, where he and his members offered haircuts, medicine and food. A sign on the wall advertised two-tiered coffee prices: 1,000 hryvnia, equivalent to about $27,
    if you ordered in Russian, no charge if you spoke Ukrainian. A photo of the sign wound up on social media in late March. The Russians showed up at the church the next morning.

    After Fr. Chudinovich declined to let them distribute aid at his church, he said, they found some numbers of Ukrainian soldiers and policemen in his phone. They blindfolded him, he said, and took him to the basement.

    Over the next two days, Fr. Chudinovich said, the Russians grilled him about his acquaintances. They left him in the cold without shoes, beat him in the knees and chest with a police baton, choked him until he passed out, and taunted him, saying: “Your
    God doesn’t exist.” At one point, he said, they tried to rape him with a stick.

    On March 30, they released him after forcing him to make two videos, in which he said he was treated well by the Russians, and he pledged to make another one once home and post it on social media.

    He did so, then fled to Ukrainian territory, where his family had been since the start of the war. A few weeks later, he posted another video to Facebook, detailing what had really happened to him in Russian captivity.

    Fr. Chudinovich said he has tried to continue his work sending humanitarian aid to Kherson. But the videos have shaken associates’ trust in him—a common reaction after locals in the south are picked up by Russians. He now struggles to raise money for
    his church and his family.

    “I have no job. I had partners in Mykolaiv who I used to work with to get medicine. After the interrogation, 80% of them stopped working with me,” he said. “I understand. Once someone is picked up, who knows what they will say.”

    Marta Sydoryak and Nikita Nikolaienko contributed to this article.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukrainian-clergy-say-russian-occupiers-target-them-with-threats-violence-11660377935

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  • From Oleg Smirnov@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 20 00:40:03 2022
    Ukrainian Clergy Say Russian Occupiers Target Them With Threats,
    Violence
    By Ian Lovett, Aug. 13, 2022, WSJ

    KROPYVNYTSKIY, Ukraine-The Russian soldiers who showed up at Rev.
    Sergey Chudinovich's church put a bag over his head, took him to
    the police station, then made him an offer.

    Let us distribute aid at your church, they said, which is located
    in Russian-occupied Kherson in the south of Ukraine. Or make a
    video telling residents to accept Russian aid.

    The Westerners are accustomed to associate "charity" with "church".
    But in the present Ukraine-related events church means little. The
    Russia's humanitarian aid in the areas like Kherson is distributed
    without any links to any religion. It would be silly to believe a
    priest in "a video telling residents to accept Russian aid" might
    be so important. The one more WSJ article is just one more nonsense
    intended for ignorant readers who have no idea about real life.

    ...

    <https://youtu.be/uALWy67oXTI> bonus link

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to Oleg Smirnov on Sat Aug 20 06:05:35 2022
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 2:41:51 PM UTC-7, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
    Ukrainian Clergy Say Russian Occupiers Target Them With Threats,
    Violence
    By Ian Lovett, Aug. 13, 2022, WSJ

    KROPYVNYTSKIY, Ukraine-The Russian soldiers who showed up at Rev.
    Sergey Chudinovich's church put a bag over his head, took him to
    the police station, then made him an offer.

    Let us distribute aid at your church, they said, which is located
    in Russian-occupied Kherson in the south of Ukraine. Or make a
    video telling residents to accept Russian aid.
    The Westerners are accustomed to associate "charity" with "church".
    But in the present Ukraine-related events church means little. The
    Russia's humanitarian aid in the areas like Kherson is distributed
    without any links to any religion. It would be silly to believe a
    priest in "a video telling residents to accept Russian aid" might
    be so important. The one more WSJ article is just one more nonsense
    intended for ignorant readers who have no idea about real life.

    No, troll.

    The key point you snipped:
    “They’ve tried to find those who have power and authority among the local people—who are able to be leaders of resistance,” said Archbishop Evstratiy of Chernihiv, a spokesman for the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. “Clergy of the Ukrainian church,
    unfortunately, are in the first row.”

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Oleg Smirnov@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 20 16:53:45 2022
    bmoore, <news:dc4212f8-acd8-403b-9c15-b141bc83001an@googlegroups.com>
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 2:41:51 PM UTC-7, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
    Ukrainian Clergy Say Russian Occupiers Target Them With Threats,
    Violence
    By Ian Lovett, Aug. 13, 2022, WSJ

    KROPYVNYTSKIY, Ukraine-The Russian soldiers who showed up at Rev.
    Sergey Chudinovich's church put a bag over his head, took him to
    the police station, then made him an offer.

    Let us distribute aid at your church, they said, which is located
    in Russian-occupied Kherson in the south of Ukraine. Or make a
    video telling residents to accept Russian aid.

    The Westerners are accustomed to associate "charity" with "church".
    But in the present Ukraine-related events church means little.
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    The
    Russia's humanitarian aid in the areas like Kherson is distributed
    without any links to any religion. It would be silly to believe a
    priest in "a video telling residents to accept Russian aid" might
    be so important. The one more WSJ article is just one more nonsense
    intended for ignorant readers who have no idea about real life.

    No, troll.

    The key point you snipped:
    ?oThey?Tve tried to find those who have power and authority among the
    local people?"who are able to be leaders of resistance,? said Archbishop Evstratiy of Chernihiv, a spokesman for the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. ?oClergy of the Ukrainian church, unfortunately, are in the first row.?

    The emphasized above.

    This is China-related newsgroup, and with your
    unhealthy obsession with Russia you dumb American
    morons are jamming ontopic talks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From A. Filip@21:1/5 to David P. on Sat Aug 20 17:20:36 2022
    "David P." <imbibe@mindspring.com> wrote:
    Ukrainian Clergy Say Russian Occupiers Target Them With Threats, Violence
    By Ian Lovett, Aug. 13, 2022, WSJ

    KROPYVNYTSKIY, Ukraine—The Russian soldiers who showed up at
    Rev. Sergey Chudinovich’s church put a bag over his head, took him to
    the police station, then made him an offer.
    […]
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/ukrainian-clergy-say-russian-occupiers-target-them-with-threats-violence-11660377935

    Do you post it here to make PRC look better in comparison?

    Faith can be easily seen as a bold political declaration at the
    occupied territories with Moscow Patriarchate and Kiev Patriarchate to
    choose. Anyway it is not good enough as *sole* excuse for violence.
    "Omitting" (misrepresenting) political aspect is plain stupid on long
    run IMHO.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Ukraine
    The church was united at the unification council in Kyiv on 15 December
    2018 as a condition for recognition of it by the Ecumenical Patriarchate
    of Constantinople and was granted the tomos of autocephaly (decree of ecclesial independence) by the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople
    in Istanbul on 5 January 2019.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Orthodox_Church_%E2%80%93_Kyiv_Patriarchate
    It merged into the Orthodox Church of Ukraine in 2018. In 2019, […]
    After its unilateral declaration of autocephaly in 1992, the
    patriarchate was not recognised by the other Eastern Orthodox
    churches, and was considered a "schismatic group" by the Moscow Patriarchate.[2][3]

    --
    A. Filip : Big (Tech) Brother is watching you.
    | Do not do unto others as you would they should do unto you. Their
    | tastes may not be the same. (George Bernard Shaw)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From bmoore@21:1/5 to Oleg Smirnov on Sat Aug 20 08:58:37 2022
    On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:54:51 AM UTC-7, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
    bmoore, <news:dc4212f8-acd8-403b...@googlegroups.com>
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 2:41:51 PM UTC-7, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
    Ukrainian Clergy Say Russian Occupiers Target Them With Threats,
    Violence
    By Ian Lovett, Aug. 13, 2022, WSJ

    KROPYVNYTSKIY, Ukraine-The Russian soldiers who showed up at Rev.
    Sergey Chudinovich's church put a bag over his head, took him to
    the police station, then made him an offer.

    Let us distribute aid at your church, they said, which is located
    in Russian-occupied Kherson in the south of Ukraine. Or make a
    video telling residents to accept Russian aid.

    The Westerners are accustomed to associate "charity" with "church".
    But in the present Ukraine-related events church means little.
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    The
    Russia's humanitarian aid in the areas like Kherson is distributed
    without any links to any religion. It would be silly to believe a
    priest in "a video telling residents to accept Russian aid" might
    be so important. The one more WSJ article is just one more nonsense
    intended for ignorant readers who have no idea about real life.

    No, troll.

    The key point you snipped:
    â?oTheyâ?Tve tried to find those who have power and authority among the local peopleâ?"who are able to be leaders of resistance,â?ť said Archbishop
    Evstratiy of Chernihiv, a spokesman for the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. â?oClergy of the Ukrainian church, unfortunately, are in the first row.â?ť

    The emphasized above.

    This is China-related newsgroup, and with your
    unhealthy obsession with Russia you dumb American
    morons are jamming ontopic talks.

    Nothing about China in any of the words you used above, just Russia, Ukraine,.

    Don't lie.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oleg Smirnov@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 20 19:52:11 2022
    bmoore, <news:8af85478-b9df-45fb-8680-5d013c6ca010n@googlegroups.com>
    On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 6:54:51 AM UTC-7, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
    bmoore, <news:dc4212f8-acd8-403b...@googlegroups.com>
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 2:41:51 PM UTC-7, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

    Ukrainian Clergy Say Russian Occupiers Target Them With Threats,
    Violence
    By Ian Lovett, Aug. 13, 2022, WSJ

    KROPYVNYTSKIY, Ukraine-The Russian soldiers who showed up at Rev.
    Sergey Chudinovich's church put a bag over his head, took him to
    the police station, then made him an offer.

    Let us distribute aid at your church, they said, which is located
    in Russian-occupied Kherson in the south of Ukraine. Or make a
    video telling residents to accept Russian aid.

    The Westerners are accustomed to associate "charity" with "church".
    But in the present Ukraine-related events church means little.
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    The
    Russia's humanitarian aid in the areas like Kherson is distributed
    without any links to any religion. It would be silly to believe a
    priest in "a video telling residents to accept Russian aid" might
    be so important. The one more WSJ article is just one more nonsense
    intended for ignorant readers who have no idea about real life.

    No, troll.

    The key point you snipped:
    ?oThey?Tve tried to find those who have power and authority among the
    local people?"who are able to be leaders of resistance,?t said
    Archbishop
    Evstratiy of Chernihiv, a spokesman for the Orthodox Church of Ukraine.
    ?oClergy of the Ukrainian church, unfortunately, are in the first row.?t >>
    The emphasized above.

    This is China-related newsgroup, and with your
    unhealthy obsession with Russia you dumb American
    morons are jamming ontopic talks.

    Nothing about China in any of the words you used above, just Russia, Ukraine,.

    Don't lie.

    The best you can do is to kill your worthless self.

    It would improve environment and help solve the food shortage problem.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to Oleg Smirnov on Sat Aug 20 11:10:36 2022
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 5:41:51 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
    Ukrainian Clergy Say Russian Occupiers Target Them With Threats,
    Violence
    By Ian Lovett, Aug. 13, 2022, WSJ

    KROPYVNYTSKIY, Ukraine-The Russian soldiers who showed up at Rev.
    Sergey Chudinovich's church put a bag over his head, took him to
    the police station, then made him an offer.

    Let us distribute aid at your church, they said, which is located
    in Russian-occupied Kherson in the south of Ukraine. Or make a
    video telling residents to accept Russian aid.
    The Westerners are accustomed to associate "charity" with "church".
    But in the present Ukraine-related events church means little. The
    Russia's humanitarian aid in the areas like Kherson is distributed
    without any links to any religion. It would be silly to believe a
    priest in "a video telling residents to accept Russian aid" might
    be so important. The one more WSJ article is just one more nonsense
    intended for ignorant readers who have no idea about real life.


    <https://youtu.be/uALWy67oXTI> bonus link

    Ukrainian government is under fire with the recent Amnesty International report.

    "Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

    Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm’s way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty
    International said today.

    Such tactics violate international humanitarian law and endanger civilians, as they turn civilian objects into military targets. The ensuing Russian strikes in populated areas have killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure.

    “We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General.

    “Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law.”"
    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Oleg Smirnov@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 25 11:30:33 2022
    ltlee1, <news:bd546cb5-b36f-4366-b9a0-0a26b83b4b44n@googlegroups.com>
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 5:41:51 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

    Ukrainian government is under fire with the recent Amnesty International report.

    "Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

    Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm's way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty International said today.

    Such tactics violate international humanitarian law and endanger civilians, as they turn civilian objects into military targets. The ensuing Russian strikes in populated areas have killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure.

    "We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas," said Agns Callamard, Amnesty International's Secretary General.

    "Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law."" https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

    After this report, the Amnesty was heavily pressured, and after few
    days of such pressure it said it has submitted it to some "independent
    experts" for review. The AI is basically a pro-Western organization,
    although they seek to look universal and above everything, but they
    aren't really so. They still make things less primitive, nevertheless.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to Oleg Smirnov on Thu Aug 25 04:05:27 2022
    On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 4:31:57 AM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
    ltlee1, <news:bd546cb5-b36f-4366...@googlegroups.com>
    On Friday, August 19, 2022 at 5:41:51 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:

    Ukrainian government is under fire with the recent Amnesty International report.

    "Ukraine: Ukrainian fighting tactics endanger civilians

    Ukrainian forces have put civilians in harm's way by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals, as they repelled the Russian invasion that began in February, Amnesty International said today.

    Such tactics violate international humanitarian law and endanger civilians,
    as they turn civilian objects into military targets. The ensuing Russian strikes in populated areas have killed civilians and destroyed civilian infrastructure.

    "We have documented a pattern of Ukrainian forces putting civilians at risk
    and violating the laws of war when they operate in populated areas," said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International's Secretary General.

    "Being in a defensive position does not exempt the Ukrainian military from respecting international humanitarian law."" https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/08/ukraine-ukrainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/
    After this report, the Amnesty was heavily pressured, and after few
    days of such pressure it said it has submitted it to some "independent experts" for review. The AI is basically a pro-Western organization, although they seek to look universal and above everything, but they
    aren't really so. They still make things less primitive, nevertheless.

    AI is basically a "some people had said ..." but influential reporting Western organization.
    In the case of Ukraine, the report is a "some people who AI trusted had said..."
    Implication: Some, presumably influential people were not pleased by the Zelenskyy
    government's action.

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