‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times

Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed
surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
Colonel Krasny said.

Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
was created to scare the population.”

He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
“to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.

Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is
consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick
Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
Services Institute, a military research organization in London.
“Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does
business.”

The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
----------------------
Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops,
paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior
military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”

Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
“I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
before the 64th Brigade arrived.

The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed
here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed
behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.

What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only
occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda
Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew.
“They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”

Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared.
Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39,
lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone
in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said.
Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy,
65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by
telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,”
Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a
bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded
to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
Ms. Naumova said.

She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her
parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces —
her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of
the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually,
French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed
that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos
and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had
had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators
told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said. “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to
cover their tracks.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:

‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times

Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed
surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
Colonel Krasny said.

Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
was created to scare the population.”

He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
“to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.

Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is
consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick
Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
Services Institute, a military research organization in London.
“Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does business.”

The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
----------------------
Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops,
paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior
military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”

Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
“I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
before the 64th Brigade arrived.

The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed
here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed
behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.

What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only
occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda
Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew.
“They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”

Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared.
Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39,
lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone
in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said. Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy,
65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,” Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a
bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded
to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
Ms. Naumova said.

She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her
parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces —
her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of
the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually,
French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed
that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos
and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had
had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators
told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said. “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to
cover their tracks.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html

US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether it is a
mistake made in the decision to kill or not.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:

‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times

Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed
surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
Colonel Krasny said.

Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
was created to scare the population.”

He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
“to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.

Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is
consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick
Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
Services Institute, a military research organization in London. “Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does business.”

The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
----------------------
Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops, paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior
military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”

Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
“I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
before the 64th Brigade arrived.

The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed
here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed
behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.

What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda
Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew.
“They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”

Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared. Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39,
lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone
in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said. Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy,
65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,” Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded
to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
Ms. Naumova said.

She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her
parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces —
her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of
the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually,
French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed
that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos
and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had
had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said. “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to
cover their tracks.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html

US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether it is

a mistake made in the decision to kill or not.

Um, "the Punisher" is a comic book character. You can do better than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:45:07 PM UTC+8, bmoore wrote:

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:

‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times

Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed
surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
Colonel Krasny said.

Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
was created to scare the population.”

He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
“to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.

Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is
consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick
Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
Services Institute, a military research organization in London. “Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does business.”

The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
----------------------
Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops, paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”

Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
“I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
before the 64th Brigade arrived.

The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed
behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.

What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda
Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew. “They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”

Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared. Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39, lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone
in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said.
Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy, 65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,”
Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded
to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
Ms. Naumova said.

She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces —
her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of
the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually, French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos
and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had
had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said. “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to cover their tracks.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html

US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether it

is a mistake made in the decision to kill or not.

Um, "the Punisher" is a comic book character. You can do better than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher

You know nuts.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:45:07 PM UTC+8, bmoore wrote:

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:

‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times

Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
Colonel Krasny said.

Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel
Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences
of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having
no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
was created to scare the population.”

He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds,
and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
“to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who
suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around
talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having
committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.

Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
Services Institute, a military research organization in London. “Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does business.”

The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
----------------------
Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops, paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”

Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor-
hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such
bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
“I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
before the 64th Brigade arrived.

The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana
Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on
March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.

What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of
them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been
injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew. “They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”

Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared. Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39, lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said.
Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy, 65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,”
Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a
bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at
the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
Ms. Naumova said.

She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son
Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces — her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and
a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where
bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually, French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the
head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said. “They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to cover their tracks.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html

US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether it

is a mistake made in the decision to kill or not.

Um, "the Punisher" is a comic book character. You can do better than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher

You know nuts.

LOL. You can do better. Try the truth for once.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022 at 9:13:01 AM UTC+8, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:43:08 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:

On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 10:45:07 PM UTC+8, bmoore wrote:

On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 9:53:35 AM UTC-7, stoney wrote:

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:

‘Such Bad Guys Will Come’: How One Russian Brigade Terrorized Bucha
By Carlotta Gall, May 22, 2022, NY Times

Based in Russia’s far east, near the border with China, the
64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
military intelligence. In radio conversations that were
intercepted by Ukrainian forces, some of the Russians expressed surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
paved with asphalt, he said. “We see it as a deliberate policy
to draft soldiers from depressed regions of Russia,”
Colonel Krasny said.

Not a lot is known about the brigade, but Colonel Krasny
claimed that it was notable for its lack of morality, for
beatings of soldiers and for thieving. Drawn from a regiment
that had served in Chechnya, the brigade was established on
Jan. 1, 2009, shortly after Russia’s war in Georgia, Colonel Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
fearsome army unit that could instill control. “The consequences of these politics was what happened in Bucha,” he said. “Having no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
was created to scare the population.”

He claimed that the Russian soldiers’ disadvantaged backgrounds, and the fact that they could act with impunity, prompted them
“to do unspeakable things.” It was not only the enemy who suffered their brutality. The Russian Army has long had a
reputation for hazing its own soldiers, and on a cellphone
left behind in Bucha by a member of the 64th, investigators
found recent evidence of the practice: a video in which an
officer is talking to a subordinate and then suddenly punches
him in the side of the head while other soldiers stand around talking. The Russian government did not respond to a request
for comment on the accusations against the 64th Brigade but
has repeatedly claimed that allegations of its forces having committed atrocities in Bucha and elsewhere are false.

Western analysts who have studied the Russian Army said that
the behavior of troops in Bucha was not a surprise. “It is consistent with the way they consider responding,” said Nick Reynolds, a researcher of land warfare at the Royal United
Services Institute, a military research organization in London. “Reprisals are part and parcel of how the Russian military does business.”

The ‘Bad Guys’ Will Come
----------------------
Killings occurred in Bucha from the first days that Russian
troops appeared. The first units were airborne assault troops, paratroopers and special forces who fired on cars and civilians
in the streets and detained men suspected of being in the
Ukrainian Army or territorial defense. The extent of the
killings, and the seeming lack of hesitation among Russian
soldiers to carry them out, has led Ukrainian officials to
surmise that they were acting under orders. “They couldn’t
not know,” Bucha’s prosecutor, Mr. Kravchenko, said of senior military commanders. “I think the terror was planned.”

Many of the documented killings occurred on Yablunska Street,
where bodies lay for weeks, visible on satellite images. But
not far away, on a corner of Ivana Franka Street, a particular
form of hell played out after March 12. Residents had already
been warned that things would get worse. A pensioner, Mykola,
67, said that the Russian troops who first came to the neighbor- hood had advised him to leave while he could. “‘After us, such bad guys will come,’” the commander told him, he recalled.
“I think they had radio contact and they knew who was coming,
and they had their own opinion of them.” Mykola left Bucha
before the 64th Brigade arrived.

The spring flowers are pushing up everywhere in Bucha, fruit
trees are in blossom, and city workers have swept the streets
and filled in some of the bomb craters. But at the end of Ivana Franka Street, amid smashed cars and destroyed homes, there is
an eerie desolation. “From this house to the end, no one is
left alive,” said Ms. Havryliuk, 65. “Eleven people were killed here. Only we stayed alive.” Her son and son-in-law had stayed behind to look after the house and the dogs, and were killed on March 12 or 13, when the 64th Brigade first arrived, she said.
The death certificates said that they had been shot in the head.

What happened over the next two weeks is hard to fathom. The
few residents who stayed were confined to their homes and only occasionally dared to go out to fetch water from a well. Some of them saw people being detained by the Russians. Nadezhda Cherednychenko, 50, pleaded with the soldiers to let her son go.
He was being held in the yard of a house and his arm had been injured when she last saw him. She found him dead in the cellar
of the same house three weeks later, after the Russians withdrew. “They should be punished,” she said of his captors. “They brought
so much pain to people. Mothers without children, fathers,
children without parents. It’s something you cannot forgive.”

Neighbors who lived next door to the Havryliuks just disappeared. Volodymyr and Tetiana Shypilo, a teacher, and their son Andriy, 39, lived in one part of the house, and Oleh Yarmolenko, 47, lived alone in the other side. “They were all our relatives,” Ms. Havryliuk said.
Down a side alley lived Lidiya Sydorenko, 62, and her husband Serhiy,
65. Their daughter, Tetiana Naumova, said that she spoke to them by telephone midmorning on March 22. “Mother was crying the whole time,”
Ms. Naumova said. “She was usually an optimist, but I think she had a
bad feeling.” Minutes later, Russian soldiers came in and demanded to search their garage. They told a neighbor to leave, shooting at the ground by her feet. “By lunchtime they had killed them,”
Ms. Naumova said.

She returned to the house with her husband, Vitaliy, and her son Anton last month after the Russian troops withdrew from Kyiv. Her parents were nowhere to be found, but they found ominous traces — her father’s hat with bullet holes in it, three pools of blood and a piece of her mother’s scalp and hair. There was also no sign of the Shypilos or of Mr. Yarmolenko, except trails of blood where bodies had been dragged along the floor of their house. Eventually, French forensic investigators solved the mystery. They examined
six charred bodies found in an empty lot up the street and confirmed that they were the missing civilians: the Sydorenkos, the 3 Shypilos and Mr. Yarmolenko. Several bore bullet wounds but three of them had had limbs severed, including Ms. Naumova’s mother, the investigators
told the families. Her father had multiple gunshot wounds to the head and chest, her mother had had an arm and a leg cut off, she said.
“They tortured them,” Ms. Havryliuk said, “and burned them to cover their tracks.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/22/world/europe/ukraine-bucha-war-crimes-russia.html

US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless in the kill. This is regardless of whether

it is a mistake made in the decision to kill or not.

Um, "the Punisher" is a comic book character. You can do better than that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punisher

You know nuts.

LOL. You can do better. Try the truth for once.

Yo yo. are you not americana

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Based in Russia's far east, near the border with China, the
64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long
seen as the part of the Russian Army with the lowest levels
of training and equipment. The brigade has ethnic Russian
commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to
Col. Mykola Krasny, the head of public affairs of Ukrainian
military intelligence.

The current Russia's top commander, the Minister of Defence
himself is not quite ethnic Russian <https://is.gd/voIWg4> but
came right from those areas near the border with China.

In radio conversations that were
intercepted by Ukrainian forces,

Most of such "intercepted radio conversations" is a fabrication.
It's quite a long established (since 2014) genre of the pro-Kiev
psyop activism. In Russia, few take these "intercepted calls"
seriously, because the voices clearly betray the typal Ukrainian
pronunciation and/or their silly content looks clearly made-up.

some of the Russians expressed
surprise that village roads in outlying areas of Kyiv were
paved with asphalt,

Here's the key. One can easily find, from open sources, where
exactly this 64th Brigade in the Russia's far east resides, and
what its home residence - about 30 km to the east of Khabarovsk
- looked like 11 years ago <https://tinyurl.com/2j7ddv92>. One
can easily imagine there's no roads paved with asphalt there.

One needs to know the most notorious talking points of the Kiev
regime's domestic propaganda. They indoctrinate the populace in
the Kiev-controlled territory so that about 1/3 of the Russians
never saw modern toilet bowls in their life since they're living
in such rural shitholes where they also never saw roads paved
with asphalt. And according to the imagination of the creative
propagandists in Kiev, the far east, near the border with China,
must be an appropriate place where locals must likely be living
without the toilet bowls and roads.

| <https://youtu.be/_Nxs-uZtgwc?t=380>
| <https://youtu.be/ipzXnLDbhb4>
| <https://youtu.be/uE6obOTEejc>

| <https://youtu.be/GXtUlXV0n5A>
| <https://youtu.be/0Cngr1sIJns>
| <https://youtu.be/1vlDykL7icw>
| <https://youtu.be/1kv1rThDdME>
| <https://youtu.be/SPkm8RV1QQI>

Some typal example of the propaganda: "They were shocked to see
that we have baths and toilet bowls in our houses. Some of them
didn't even know how to use toilet bowls. Some put a pot within
a toilet bowl and so did a crap. Asphalt and electricity in the
village was such a great cultural shock for them!" <https://tinyurl.com/2nfg87ru> Read this highly creative stuff
through a machine translation.

If they invent and promote such grossly unrealistic stuff, then
nothing can stop them from inventing and spreading any fictions
about horrible Russian atrocities as much horrible as possible.

By GDP per capita, living standards, the Ukraine is about thrice
poorer against Russia <https://tinyurl.com/2z8xexac>, but for the
Kiev regime's propaganda, reality means little. Its narratives
rely mainly on *cultist* settings. Since the Ukraine "is Europe"
(is declared so) while Russia "is asiatic", the Ukraine must be
superior simply by definition (we're european!) while Russia must
be "savage asiatic horde" also by definition. Then, the Russian
troops can't not be atrocious indiscriminate killers, rapist and
looters simply because it's what the asiatic hordes used to do.

Also, this is why the Kiev regime's propaganda is so focused on
the Russian "minority ethnic groups", and predominantly on the
people from the Asian part of Russia (and, in this respect, the
ethnic Buryats have become the N1 topic and omnipresent meme of
the Kiev's xenophoby).

It's rooted in the known 13th century events, when the Mongol-led
nomadic invaders made the catastrophic destructions (read also <http://tinyurl.com/yhcm5a9n>) that instilled the well-persistent
archetypal "asiatic hordes" image in the European consciousness,
particluarly linked with the Mongols, and then the image was also
forwarded onto Russia, given its once occurred vassalage to the
Golden Horde <https://archive.is/Rwem5#selection-955.105-955.152>

In order to better understand the accents of the (west-)Ukrainian (neo-)nationalism, one needs to know that it seeks to mimic the
German Nazi concepts / attitudes <https://bit.ly/3q5yHav>, and in
addition to that one also needs to know the German Nazi concepts
particularly with regard to the Slavic people.

In the German Nazi vision, based on the "scientific racism" that
was developed in Europe since the Age of Enlightenment, the north-
European Germanic / Nordic ethnic types were seen as "the highest
race". About the Slavic 'race' their concept was so that the Slavs
initially were close to this "nordic race", but their movement to
the east and mixing with the Finnic, Turkic and other "mongoloid"
people(s) spoiled the Slavs racially, so today they must be seen
not only as lower race but also as a spoiled race. Such concepts
were combined with earlier ideas about the Slavs, about which I
once told here <https://archive.is/vdxRb#selection-851.0-879.63>.
At the time before and during the WW2, when the German Nazism came
to its peak, the Galician (west-Ukrainian) nationalists (what is
now known as Banderism <https://bit.ly/3q5yHav>) had, in their
aspiration to imitate the Nazis, creatively rethought the German
Nazi ideas so that the west-Ukrainians should be implied as
"original" "non-spoiled" Slavs, whereas "the Muscovites" should be
considered sort of "Finnic-Mongolic garbage" against that.

In the post-Soviet time, the post-Banderists expanded this vision
so that the whole Ukraine should be seen as "true Russia" (i.e.
which has inherited the true Russian characteristics since the old
time) and what is called Russia today is sort of impostor based on
that "Finnic-Mongolic garbage". This claims are pretty attractive
from the nazi-cultist perspective, but it's non-scientific, given
that "the true Russia" (which initially formed in the upper Volga
(Novgorod) area, and later shifted to Kiev) was linguistically and
culturally Slavic, but Slavic-Finnic mix genetically, about which
I once posted here <https://tinyurl.com/y8tkbghy>.

It's a bit squeamish for me to describe such a garbage within the
mind of the neo-Ukrainian village idiots, but it is needed to show
what drives their motivation and propaganda in basics.

One might simply ignore it if it was merely an intra-Ukraine stuff,
but it was not so. Many people within the Ukraine dislike the
Banderist narratives, at least it was so before the 2014 coup. The
people of the sort are in all regions of the country, although the
highest persentage of them is in the east and south regions. When
the 2014 coup had happened, they started feeling uncomfortable, so
that in some Ukraine's regions it caused separatist sentiment, and
the Kremlin had to support their separatist aspirations, given the
popular sentiment in Russia. And since the Atlanticism has made a
bet on the Banderism - as a way to appropriate the Ukraine - these
people could not expect help from anyone but Russia.

Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
fearsome army unit that could instill control. "The consequences
of these politics was what happened in Bucha," he said. "Having
no discipline, and these aggressive habits, it looks like it
was created to scare the population."

Currently, the freaks in Kiev gradually begin to realize the fact
that the orgiastic enthusiasm with which their propaganda attributes grotesquely horrific allegations to the Russian military and to the
Russians in general, increasingly backfires on the regime itself.
Eg., yesterday, regime outlets reported <https://archive.is/TbJAh>, <https://archive.ph/WAGdC>, that the regime has gotten rid of their
"official commissioner for human rights", Liudmila Denisova. They
fired her mainly for the fact that she unbridledly told the stories,
both horrific and excitative, and very detailed, about the Russian
soldiers raping - in various perverted manners - Ukrainian children,
women and men. Her stories were so appealing and catchy that many
reporters began wanting to know more details, meet the victims on
their spot and write journalistic articles about them. It's turned
out impossible to find credible enough victims in real life, and so
some began to ask inappropriate questions.

But so far many 'reputable' outlets, including the Atlanticist MSM,
willingly published and promoted the stories told by Denisova. Now
they will unlikely publish an admission that it's all a fabrication.
In essence, such stories were a veiled porn, and mass public loves
porn <https://is.gd/ZAiKFG>, <https://tinyurl.com/26o7ovke>.

The regime fired her not because the regime doesn't support such a disinformation (in fact, exactly the opposite), but because she
turned out incapable to produce it in sufficiently plausible way.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In March 29 there was a general announcement, after the negotiation
in Istanbul, - the Russian representatives said that the military
command decided to significantly reduce activities in the near-Kiev
region. The Russian troops were not driven out from Bucha by a Kiev
offencive in the area, in March 30 they simply left Bucha without
specific announcements. In order not to incite Kiev to attack the
retreating units in the back, the Russian military didn't announce
withdrawal from specific localities (which was later used by the
pro-Kiev propaganda to claim the troops remained there until April).

March 31 was sort of day of uncertainty in Bucha, until the locals
had finally realized that the Russian troops had actually left. The
first amateur videos from the abandoned town appeared in the social
networks on the evening of April 1 (8PM GMT and later, - this two <https://is.gd/fJHyJC> <https://is.gd/LSzwuo> seemed to be the very
first, the both show the same video, - the spot where one of the
hottest local fights occurred). One can see dead bodies and damaged
cars at the streets, which should not surprise anyone, given that,
at some point, some streets of the town were the scene of intense
fightings and/or there were shellings causing collateral casualties
among non-combatants. That's the ugly reality of war, which still
doesn't mean a targeted massacre of civilians. On the part of Kiev,
there was also the so called territorial defense
<https://is.gd/1Vpuxs> <https://is.gd/aWd01c> which members are not
supposed to necessarily wear a military style uniforms (so their
corpses in civilian clothes could be confused with non-combatants).
One pro-regime outlet <https://is.gd/ZIa8V3> itself described it so
that while the Russian troops were attacked from the air by UAVs,
the territorial defence fought them on the ground.

In April 1, the Kiev units, accompanied with some accredited press
reporters, seemingly began cautiously entering the town, but there
were no news reports and claims about loads of corpses of civilians
at the streets. Some local Kiev officials, in their statements in
April 1, casually mentioned the fact of dead bodies (implicitly left
after the battles and still unburied) but didn't accentuate it. Some
of the Atlanticist MSM outlets later claimed <https://is.gd/xrraf7>
that their reporters were at the place already in April 1, but such
claims appeared only in their reports published since April 3, and
there's no credible explanation why they had delayed publication of
such shocking news by a day.

In April 2, the regime began a large-scale operation to completely
"clean up" Bucha using police and other forces, and by evening they
had published an official video report about their action. And this
report is strikingly contrary to the narratives promoted later. The
police drove around various streets of the town and talked to locals
and there were no loads of corpses seen in the video and the locals
said nothing about how the Russians sought to kill them en masse.
The report is here <https://youtu.be/Z7yIyNBMpQY> (I'm not sure they
haven't altered the content recently, and here is its copy without
age restriction <https://youtu.be/lvLlrUMl5zA>). A notable fact is
that in description of their clean-up action, the "national police"
had placed particular emphasis on clearing Bucha "from saboteurs and accomplices of Russia" with a special forces unit with a frivolously
telling name "Safari" <https://archive.is/6PwGM> (which reveals the
attitude towards those "accomplices of Russia"). This fixation on
"saboteurs and accomplices" has led some to reason that this Safari
unit itself might kill those "accomplices", and it might later be misrepresented as a result of Russian murderous action. Yet one more
notable fact related to April 2 was that a strict curfew had been
introduced in the town from 9 PM on April 2 to 6 AM on April 5, the
locals were forbidden to leave their homes, and one can only guess
what was happening on the streets of the town during that time (in
the absence of random witnesses).

The very first allegations about atrocities appeared April 2 midday,
the narratives about mass graves and dead civilians had been shot in
the back of their head, and dead civilians with their hands tied
behind their back and the like first appeared (still without images
and videos) in April 2, - there were no such narratives before.

Then, in April 3, a massive and coordinated media campaign started
with more bold and certain narratives, where the loads of corpses at
the streets were shown and the eyewitnesses were telling reporters
their very horrific stories. It was inconsistent with the earlier
reports. Moreover, even during the Russian occupation of Bucha there
were some local bloggers who were not Russia sympathisers but still
managed to post their videos from the occupied town and spoke out
some critical speeches, and what they told at the time in no way is
consistent with the atrocious allegations promoted later.

April 3, the Russian military issued an official rebuttal, and
shortly after it, in turn, the Atlanticist MSM published satellite
images intended to prove that the loads of corpses at the streets
and mass graves were there since mid-March, and other signs of the
Russian war crimes can be seen in the images long before the
withdrawal in late March. Some skeptics claimed that some elements
in the images indicate that the actual date, when those images were
taken, differs from the declared date. I am not competent to judge
such claims, but some more general consideration seems relevant.

It's natural, and the Americans themselves bragged so, the US gives
"real-time intelligence" to the Kiev regime "to help them attack
Russian forces" <https://is.gd/RnRJHJ>, <http://archive.is/bHuev>, <https://archive.is/1Skgh>. And it must be that not only the US but
also other Western powers use their intelligence capabilities to
provide support to the regime. I think it's reasonable to believe
that in the areas occupied by the Russian troops, the US might keep
its informant agents who provide information about what is really
going on within these areas and what are the real Russian policies
there. And with regard to satellite imagery, the US must be
carefully analysing the satellite images of all the Ukraine's areas
where military activities go on. If the clear signs of the Russian
atrocities / war crimes were visible via satellites, and from other intelligence, many days before, then why didn't the Atlanticist
powers make this information public before April?

The noted inconsistencies make one suspect that there may be not a
real reality but an attempt to fabricate in hindsight some virtual
reality in accordance to the agenda.

Basically, it's hardly possible to surely deny that some Russian
troops might commit some atrocities. War is a rough, dirty business,
and among soldiers of any army there always may be such persons who
might tend to sadistically abuse their power against non-combatants
or kill non-combatants simply through neglection. Such cases may
happen in any army. However, the Bucha-related story the way it's
presented by the pro-regime propaganda doesn't seem well-consistent.

Such cases require thorough investigation, but one can hardly hope
for a due investigation, given the unhealthy passion with which the
Atlanticism protects the regime and blames Russia for everything.

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stoney, <news:587cae29-d1dd-45e0-b187-371c6773aa3dn@googlegroups.com>

On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 1:50:38 PM UTC+8, David P. wrote:

Based in Russia's far east, near the border with China, the
64th Brigade belongs to the Eastern Military District, long

commanders but consists largely of soldiers drawn from minority
ethnic groups and disadvantaged communities, according to

Krasny said. The goal was clear, he added: to build up a
fearsome army unit that could instill control. "The consequences
of these politics was what happened in Bucha," he said. "Having

US has had a army group called as "the punisher" to violently kill
people when invading or in the occupied country. No difference from
this, when war is concerned. To win the war, one has to be ruthless
in the kill. This is regardless of whether it is a mistake made in
the decision to kill or not.

Ruthlessness might be good against a military adversary, but
against non-combatants it's certainly not good. And what's going
on in the Ukraine is not a tribal war where one tribe would seek
to subdue another tribe though ruthless killing and terrorizing
of all their men. The Russian objective is to undermine the Kiev
regime as an institution that feeds its populace with hateful
stupidification and nurtures Nazi(-like) factions under its cover.
It's not only for humanitarian reasons (the hateful regime is
bad) but also because such a regime, if it's well-militarized and
integrated within the NATO structures, would exacerbate strategic
security threats to Russia. One might dispute on how the military
way, chosen by the Kremlin, is adequate to this objective, but
anyway it doesn't suppose ruthless intimidation of the populace.

The Kiev's agenda is asymmetric, and their propaganda seeks "to
mobilize" the populace against "the Russians" in a tribalist way,
- so they promote the idea that the Russian intentional approach
is to apply a "fearsome army that could instill control" through
ruthless indiscriminate genocidal terror, like primitive savages
would do, so the Russian troops are supposed to be such primitive
savages, especially those "minority ethnic groups" which are
supposed to be taken from the "Russia's far east, near the border
with China" (as it's especially accentuated in the article).

In other words, what they actually seek to say is, they've become
subjected to invasion of "asiatic horde" akin to those Mongols or
Huns from the past.

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