• Polish-Ukrainian

    From Oleg Smirnov@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 26 19:58:27 2022
    XPost: alt.history, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.ukrainian

    I have recently come across a notable "leftist" article "Slavery vs.
    Serfdom, or Was Poland a Colonial Empire?" <https://is.gd/Cc5INv>.
    Title of the original article in Polish poses not a question, but a
    statement <https://is.gd/2uiAle> "Colonialism Polish Style, a Long
    Shadow of Serfdom". There's much about the Ukraine. Since the Ukraine
    is currently a hot topic, some may be interested to better know the Ukraine-related history. And some critical remarks below.



    | Starting in the 15th century, [serfdom] gradually and consistently
    | disappeared from the West .. At around the same time Eastern and
    | Central Europe witnessed the exact opposite trend ..

    The most primary reason for serfdom was a state need / desire of ruling
    class to control / constraint migrations of low classes. It may be well illustrated by the fact that the serfdom policies ceased earliest - or
    did not even appear - in such areas where were natural (geographical)
    barriers for mass migrations. Britain and Japan both illustrate it, -
    if you are a poor low class then you hardly can easily migrate out from
    the island, you have no choice other than staying within the area.

    In Western Europe, regional developments by the 15th century made mass migrations of low class people difficult ("all lands are already taken
    by someone"), that underminded the background for serfdom policies.

    For Poland, situation was so that the post-Golden Horde ("post-Mongol") formations in the western part of the Eurasian Steppe became relatively
    weaker, and there was the (proto)Cossack presence maturing in the
    steppeside, which opened for agricultural activities new untapped areas
    that were seen too vulnerable to nomadic raids before.

    For Russia, situation became much more drastic since the 16th century.
    The incorporation of the middle and south Volga area, then the Cossack expansion up to the Urals and furher into Siberia, enabled vast new
    areas for agricultural use, which in turn stimulated the desire of the landlords to constraint migrations out from "the center". This is why,
    within Russia, the serfdom policies happened only in "central Russia"
    region (including the Ukraine).

    In the 1920s, the Russian serfdom was heavily demonized by the early
    Soviet propaganda, which saw its goal in denigrating "old regime" as
    much as possible in order to contrast it to the post-revolution regime.
    It inter alia had a long-term international impact so that many started
    to believe that the serfdom system in the Tsarist Russia was something extremely special (which in fact was not so). I once posted here about
    it <https://is.gd/vu02Az>.



    | .. landowners in 19th century Ukraine were extremely cruel and their
    | cruelty was never appropriately punished .. But *szlachta* had also
    | more sophisticated modes of subjugating peasants ..

    Here the Polish writer cites a French researcher who inaccurately
    shifted the mid-late-18th century realities and mores to "19th century Ukraine". The French writer then complained <https://is.gd/eVbBJJ> that
    in Poland his historical research is meeting with some hostility, since
    the ideologues of the post-communist regime promote narrative of
    "civilization mission of Poles" towards the Ukrainians, and they
    naturally dislike the facts that can disnoble the narrative.

    Some irony is that the Polish colonisation of the Ukraine was continued
    even *within* Russia in the 19th century. In the 16th century, since
    the incorporation of Duchy of Lithuania, Poland made a purposeful
    effort to economically and cuturally "polonize" the upper class of the
    ethnic Russian area (i.e. the Ukraine) within Poland. Polish 'magnates' acquired lands there, and the native landlords got more favor if they
    sought to mimic Poles, converted to Catholicism etc. It created such a situation when almost all the landlords in the Poland's Russian area
    were Polish, while their serfs were Russian (Ukrainian). In later time,
    when more post-Poland lands, then a half of Poland itself, fell under
    control of Russia, the imperial government cared pretty little about
    "ethnic" etc topics. They realized some issues only since the mid-19th
    century, when turbulent pre-revolutionary developments already started.

    Along with that, the historical Polish impact is a secondary, minor
    factor regarding the current hostile situation between Russia and the
    post-coup Kiev regime (despite the insanely anti-Russia stance of the
    modern Poland's government). The primary factor is the Banderist
    ideology <https://bit.ly/3q5yHav>, which is historically linked to
    Galicia, - a peculiar west-Ukrainian region that got especial impact
    from Austrian empire. Their pro-Hitlerian nostalgism isn't "Polish".



    | .. on the other, the local Ruthenian nobility ..

    "Ruthenian" means "Russian". It's just an alternative form for Russian
    in Western Latin / Romance languages. "Ruth-" instead of "Rus-", and
    nothing more. "Ruthenian" is rather common in Western use in order to
    designate various "western" fragments of what originally was
    "pre-Mongol" Russia. Many Western writers aren't enthusiastic to remind
    a reader that some originally Russian people(s) turned out outside of
    Russia, so let's call them "Ruthenian" instead.



    | .. colonial discourse in the Polish presence in Ukraine, like the
    | myth of terra nullius (where the steppes of Ukraine, allegedly devoid
    | of human presence, can be compared to the vast of American West ..

    Hey, it's not a myth. The steppes of the present day Ukraine, until the
    18th century, were not allegedly, but very literally "devoid of human presence". More accurately, the steppes were controlled by the nomads,
    or it was a kind of "gray zone". But the nomads need huge chunks of
    land to run their mobile pastoralism properly. This is why such lands
    naturally look "devoid of human presence" (like in Mongolia, where few
    Mongols occupy a huge land that seems devoid of human presence).

    In contrast to waterless Mongolia, agricultural use of those western
    steppes would be much more productive against the environment-friendly
    mobile pastoralism. But if an enterprising man started farming there,
    then one day a group of equestrian guys would come to him for bringing
    him to the popular slave market in Crimea. End of farming.

    In the 15-17th centuries, those Ottoman-backed equestrian guys were a non-illusory pain in the ass for their neighbours (not only for Poland (Ukraine) and Russia, but also for the Chircassian Islamic brothers),
    because they abused their equestrian skills to raid and capture people,
    and then sell them to slavery.



    | .. the Polish colonization of Ukraine .. required some kind of
    | rationalization, which was provided by the Sarmatian ideology ..
    | constructing ideologies, which would justify social and racial
    | boundaries .. Around 16th century the nobility started to identify
    | themselves with the descendants of the ancient Sarmatian tribe ..,
    | which .. had once conquered the lands of Slavs and subjugated
    | its rural population. This genetic myth helped to establish a
    | symbolical division between members of the nobility (that is the top
    | ten percent of the population) and the rural local population ..

    It's boldly misleading to declare the Ukraine as a primary reason for
    emergence of "the Sarmatian ideology". The "symbolical division"
    between "Ruthenians" and Poles existed since the Christrian Schism, and
    the Poland's Catholics cultivated an idea of superiority over the
    Orthodox Church. It didn't demand invention of additional concepts.

    The primary reason for the Sarmatism ideology was a wish to rationalize
    a symbolical division between the low class ethnic Poles and the noble
    enthic Poles ("Szlachta"), and the Ukraine topic is aside of that.

    From this Polish article, it's visible that while describing the ugly
    features of the Polish serfdom, the writer persistently seeks to shift
    focus on the Ukraine, moreover, the very title manifests an intention to
    link "serfdom" with "colonization" (of the Ukraine). It's not a honest
    bundle. With regard to the Poland's history, including the Ukraine, it
    would be more honest to describe serfdom as serfdom and colonization as colonization, separately.

    The serfdom(-like) regulations in Poland were introduced since the 12th century, and such laws gradually became more stringent long before the
    Ukraine fell under Poland's governance.

    An invariable companion of the serfdom practice is the issue of flight
    of peasants from the residences - assigned to certain landlords - where
    they must mandatory be. In Poland, it became a painful issue already in
    the 15th century <https://is.gd/Mau9Tc>. Among popular destinations for
    runaway Polish serfs were Dachy of Lithuania and outskirts of Moscow
    state, where orders were milder at the time (also many joined incipient
    Cossack communities in the southern near-steppe areas).

    So the Polish serfdom was primarily applied to the Polish own peasants,
    but then the modern Polish nationalism made an effort to symbolically
    uplift, in a retrospect, the Polish peasants somewhat closer to the
    Szlachta image, and the insistent shift of focus to the Ukraine serves
    the trick "to contrast" Poles vs Ukrainians. If you ask a modern Pole
    about his or her ancestors then the most popular answer today would be
    they were from a minor Szlachta and the like. It's somewhat like every
    second Arab in Middle East or North Africa would tell you that his or
    her descency is directly from Prophet Muhammad.

    Within the modern Polish nationalist sentiment, the Ukrainians serve as
    a legit image of inferiority <https://archive.is/JEQWP>, which explains
    the effort to shift the "Polish serfdom" towards the Ukraine.

    In turn, in an effort to extrapolate the Szlachta image to all the
    Poles, the "Sarmatism" article in the Wikipedia <https://is.gd/e0IMGt>, rhetorically operates, for the most part, in terms of simply "Poles".

    Such a "sarmatian" pattern is somewhat common. In various communities
    it's possible to notice people who tend to accentuate their 'special'
    origin against "the average", which sometimes may be true but often
    seems a wishful fantasy. Within Europe, such a search for a special
    origin became especially popular at the time the Europeans call the Age
    of Renaissance and Enlightenment. It particular, it produced the basis
    for the European "scientific racism".

    In the 9th century - six centuries before the European "Renaissance" -
    the chieftains of the most early Russia implemented the same pattern by inventing a special "Varyagnian" origin for themselves (also by use of
    the Nordic names like Igor and Oleg). For the Russian warlords, it
    served both the internal purpose (alienation from the low populace) and
    their "foreign policy". From the latter perspective, at the time, the
    pagan Norsemen were already well-known as a formidable barbaric power throughout the Christian Europe, so the Russian princes - when making
    their looting raids into the Eastern Roman Empire (a.k.a. Byzantium) -
    resorted to cunningly misrepresent themselves under a vague image close
    to this brandname.

    The Szlachta's especially contemptuous racist-like attitude towards
    their local populace contributed to the fact that most of the European
    Jewish community began concentrating within Poland since about the 14th century, so that in the 16th century, about 80% of all the Jews in the
    world were residing in Poland (which eventually formed the Jewish major Ashkenazim branch). Way of life of the Jewish diaspora in the medieval
    Europe was so that they maintained quite an egalitarian community among themselves and sought to sell their skills and services to regional aristocracy. The Jews put a great effort into education, so they indeed
    had something to sell. But the Jewish religion demanded to keep and
    manifest a distance between Jews and non-Jews. Local populace became
    annoyed of the fact that their noblemen maintain "special relationship"
    with the 'alien' Jews, and sometimes it led to situations when local aristocracy had to choose between the irritated populace and the Jews.
    In Poland, the Jewish community could be less afraid of an anti-Jewish
    action "on polular demand" from the Poland's authorities, which made it
    a comfortable place for the Jews at the time.



    | The common American derogatory term based on the Latin word for
    | black, 'niger', finds a surprising semantic correlation in the
    | Polish word 'czern' [adj. czarny - 'black'] ..

    Niger means simply 'black' in Latin, while czern is not an exclusively
    Polish word, it's a common Slavic word, that also means simply 'black'.
    In languages related to agricultural societies, long before the modern
    racist 'color' obsession, it was quite a common case to figuratively
    associate low class peasants with 'blackness', because these people are
    digging in the soil, and the soil is black, the dirt on their hands,
    faces, clothes is 'black'. The American N-word, in turn, is primarily
    linked with the skin color, so the "surprising semantic correlation" is far-fetched here.

    In east-European languages, and in Russian language as well, one may
    encounter various white and black this and that, and not only white and
    black but also various other colors figuratively applied to various
    entities. One'd keep in mind the fact that most of such figurative use
    of colors evolved in language many centuries ago, long before people
    started to know and think anything about 'races'. Attempts to interpret
    a someone's old color symbolism on the basis of the modern Western
    racial 'color' concepts might naturally lead to wrong conclusions, and
    it's better to avoid too acute semantic insights.



    | A shocking proof of how terribly effective this Sarmatian ideology
    | was, can be found in a personal letter of Zygmunt Krasinski, one of
    | the three greatest Polish Romantic poets in the 19th century (and a
    | descendant of an aristocratic family). In the mid-19th century
    | Krasinski wrote to his English friend Henry Reeve:
    |
    | "Believe me and rest assured that apart from aristocracy there's
    | nothing in Poland: no talent, no bright minds, nor sense of
    | sacrifice. Our third state [bourgeoisie] is nonsense; our peasants
    | are machines. Only we [nobles] are Poland."

    Contemptuous attitude from nobles (especially, non-prominent or petty
    nobles) towards both the poor "baser" peasantry and the rich people
    (merchants, "bourgeoisie") of non-noble descent is more or less common
    for a feudal environment, it's not specifically Polish. Compare it with
    this French poem <https://archive.is/UwbU1> "It pleases me immensely"
    and so on. The same accents. The only notable fact is that the French
    verse is from the 12th century while the Polish excerpt is more recent.



    | .. the disdainful approach of Polish lords toward Ukrainian peasants
    | as a key cause of brutal, bloody uprisings in Ukraine, from the
    | Khmelnitsky Uprising in 1648 ..

    When there's a strong correlation between social status and ethnicity,
    it always implies certain social tensions and may even promise a great
    turmoil. So was the Poland in the 17th century, and moreover, there was
    also religious issue. It was "Ukrainian" uprising (the term "Ukraine"
    at the time was still not well established) but not an uprising of the
    whole Polish peasantry, because in addition to "disdainful approach" of
    the landlords, the proto-Ukrainains also suffered from religious and
    ethnic discrimination within Poland. Three in one. The Khmelnitsky 1648 Uprising was not the very first, it was rather the first succesful.

    One of the side effects of the uprising was emergence of the Jewish
    Chassidism, by the way. The rebels targeted not only the Polish
    landlords but also the Jews as "Polish collaborators", given that the
    landlords widely employed the Jews as their assistants / middlemen to
    supervise over the peasants, or leased to Jews their villages, so the
    peasants often might experience that "disdainful approach" by means of
    the Jews. The uprising turned out a big shock for the Poland's Jews, it undermined their confidence that they might feel safe while relying on
    the Poland's aristocracy only, and stumulated their spiritual quest.



    | In recent years the historical issue of serfdom was subject to a
    | lively and at times heated debate .. The real nature of serfdom was
    | addressed by historians .. but without much consensus ..

    It seems clear that the basic attribute that primarily defines "the
    real nature of serfdom" is a restriction on freedom of movement and
    choice of residence. Such restrictions may vary in their strictness. In
    the modern world, most of countries have laws somehow restricting
    freedom of movement of their citizens in some cases. Misc. "residence
    permits" and "registrations" may be seen akin to serfdom. Unpaid debts
    may be a reason for forbidding a person to move freely. Etc etc ..

    From the "capitalist economic" perspective, the serfdom(-like) practice
    is sort of unfair competition. Hired workers can compete by choosing an employer, landless peasants can compete through choosing a landlord (or
    through domestication of some untapped lands). Disabling them from
    freedom of movement and choice means they can no longer economically
    compete this way. From the market perspective, a 'fair' competition,
    including through migrations, is a driver for economy. But the state
    still can find some non-capitalist, non-market reasons to conclude that uncontrolled migrations may cause some unwanted effects. Understanding
    of when and why the state resorted to such a logic, and implemented it,
    would likely answer about the real nature of serfdom.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to Oleg Smirnov on Tue Apr 26 10:41:28 2022
    On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 1:00:49 PM UTC-4, Oleg Smirnov wrote:
    I have recently come across a notable "leftist" article "Slavery vs.
    Serfdom, or Was Poland a Colonial Empire?" <https://is.gd/Cc5INv>.
    Title of the original article in Polish poses not a question, but a
    statement <https://is.gd/2uiAle> "Colonialism Polish Style, a Long
    Shadow of Serfdom". There's much about the Ukraine. Since the Ukraine
    is currently a hot topic, some may be interested to better know the Ukraine-related history. And some critical remarks below.

    At present, Russia is in war with Ukraine, and a lot of Western nations consider
    Russia on the wrong, not Poland. Polish fighters in Ukraine are fighting on Ukraine's behalf although paid by whom is not yet clear.

    IF Polish history has somehow contributed to the Ukrainian grievance against pro-Russia presence in Ukraine, please show the causation.


    | Starting in the 15th century, [serfdom] gradually and consistently
    | disappeared from the West .. At around the same time Eastern and
    | Central Europe witnessed the exact opposite trend ..

    The most primary reason for serfdom was a state need / desire of ruling
    class to control / constraint migrations of low classes. It may be well illustrated by the fact that the serfdom policies ceased earliest - or
    did not even appear - in such areas where were natural (geographical) barriers for mass migrations. Britain and Japan both illustrate it, -
    if you are a poor low class then you hardly can easily migrate out from
    the island, you have no choice other than staying within the area.

    In Western Europe, regional developments by the 15th century made mass migrations of low class people difficult ("all lands are already taken
    by someone"), that underminded the background for serfdom policies.

    For Poland, situation was so that the post-Golden Horde ("post-Mongol") formations in the western part of the Eurasian Steppe became relatively weaker, and there was the (proto)Cossack presence maturing in the
    steppeside, which opened for agricultural activities new untapped areas
    that were seen too vulnerable to nomadic raids before.

    For Russia, situation became much more drastic since the 16th century.
    The incorporation of the middle and south Volga area, then the Cossack expansion up to the Urals and furher into Siberia, enabled vast new
    areas for agricultural use, which in turn stimulated the desire of the landlords to constraint migrations out from "the center". This is why,
    within Russia, the serfdom policies happened only in "central Russia"
    region (including the Ukraine).

    In the 1920s, the Russian serfdom was heavily demonized by the early
    Soviet propaganda, which saw its goal in denigrating "old regime" as
    much as possible in order to contrast it to the post-revolution regime.
    It inter alia had a long-term international impact so that many started
    to believe that the serfdom system in the Tsarist Russia was something extremely special (which in fact was not so). I once posted here about
    it <https://is.gd/vu02Az>.



    | .. landowners in 19th century Ukraine were extremely cruel and their
    | cruelty was never appropriately punished .. But *szlachta* had also
    | more sophisticated modes of subjugating peasants ..

    Here the Polish writer cites a French researcher who inaccurately
    shifted the mid-late-18th century realities and mores to "19th century Ukraine". The French writer then complained <https://is.gd/eVbBJJ> that
    in Poland his historical research is meeting with some hostility, since
    the ideologues of the post-communist regime promote narrative of "civilization mission of Poles" towards the Ukrainians, and they
    naturally dislike the facts that can disnoble the narrative.

    Some irony is that the Polish colonisation of the Ukraine was continued
    even *within* Russia in the 19th century. In the 16th century, since
    the incorporation of Duchy of Lithuania, Poland made a purposeful
    effort to economically and cuturally "polonize" the upper class of the
    ethnic Russian area (i.e. the Ukraine) within Poland. Polish 'magnates' acquired lands there, and the native landlords got more favor if they
    sought to mimic Poles, converted to Catholicism etc. It created such a situation when almost all the landlords in the Poland's Russian area
    were Polish, while their serfs were Russian (Ukrainian). In later time,
    when more post-Poland lands, then a half of Poland itself, fell under
    control of Russia, the imperial government cared pretty little about
    "ethnic" etc topics. They realized some issues only since the mid-19th century, when turbulent pre-revolutionary developments already started.

    Along with that, the historical Polish impact is a secondary, minor
    factor regarding the current hostile situation between Russia and the post-coup Kiev regime (despite the insanely anti-Russia stance of the
    modern Poland's government). The primary factor is the Banderist
    ideology <https://bit.ly/3q5yHav>, which is historically linked to
    Galicia, - a peculiar west-Ukrainian region that got especial impact
    from Austrian empire. Their pro-Hitlerian nostalgism isn't "Polish".



    | .. on the other, the local Ruthenian nobility ..

    "Ruthenian" means "Russian". It's just an alternative form for Russian
    in Western Latin / Romance languages. "Ruth-" instead of "Rus-", and
    nothing more. "Ruthenian" is rather common in Western use in order to designate various "western" fragments of what originally was
    "pre-Mongol" Russia. Many Western writers aren't enthusiastic to remind
    a reader that some originally Russian people(s) turned out outside of
    Russia, so let's call them "Ruthenian" instead.



    | .. colonial discourse in the Polish presence in Ukraine, like the
    | myth of terra nullius (where the steppes of Ukraine, allegedly devoid
    | of human presence, can be compared to the vast of American West ..

    Hey, it's not a myth. The steppes of the present day Ukraine, until the
    18th century, were not allegedly, but very literally "devoid of human presence". More accurately, the steppes were controlled by the nomads,
    or it was a kind of "gray zone". But the nomads need huge chunks of
    land to run their mobile pastoralism properly. This is why such lands naturally look "devoid of human presence" (like in Mongolia, where few Mongols occupy a huge land that seems devoid of human presence).

    In contrast to waterless Mongolia, agricultural use of those western
    steppes would be much more productive against the environment-friendly
    mobile pastoralism. But if an enterprising man started farming there,
    then one day a group of equestrian guys would come to him for bringing
    him to the popular slave market in Crimea. End of farming.

    In the 15-17th centuries, those Ottoman-backed equestrian guys were a non-illusory pain in the ass for their neighbours (not only for Poland (Ukraine) and Russia, but also for the Chircassian Islamic brothers),
    because they abused their equestrian skills to raid and capture people,
    and then sell them to slavery.



    | .. the Polish colonization of Ukraine .. required some kind of
    | rationalization, which was provided by the Sarmatian ideology ..
    | constructing ideologies, which would justify social and racial
    | boundaries .. Around 16th century the nobility started to identify
    | themselves with the descendants of the ancient Sarmatian tribe ..,
    | which .. had once conquered the lands of Slavs and subjugated
    | its rural population. This genetic myth helped to establish a
    | symbolical division between members of the nobility (that is the top
    | ten percent of the population) and the rural local population ..

    It's boldly misleading to declare the Ukraine as a primary reason for emergence of "the Sarmatian ideology". The "symbolical division"
    between "Ruthenians" and Poles existed since the Christrian Schism, and
    the Poland's Catholics cultivated an idea of superiority over the
    Orthodox Church. It didn't demand invention of additional concepts.

    The primary reason for the Sarmatism ideology was a wish to rationalize
    a symbolical division between the low class ethnic Poles and the noble
    enthic Poles ("Szlachta"), and the Ukraine topic is aside of that.

    From this Polish article, it's visible that while describing the ugly features of the Polish serfdom, the writer persistently seeks to shift
    focus on the Ukraine, moreover, the very title manifests an intention to
    link "serfdom" with "colonization" (of the Ukraine). It's not a honest bundle. With regard to the Poland's history, including the Ukraine, it
    would be more honest to describe serfdom as serfdom and colonization as colonization, separately.

    The serfdom(-like) regulations in Poland were introduced since the 12th century, and such laws gradually became more stringent long before the Ukraine fell under Poland's governance.

    An invariable companion of the serfdom practice is the issue of flight
    of peasants from the residences - assigned to certain landlords - where
    they must mandatory be. In Poland, it became a painful issue already in
    the 15th century <https://is.gd/Mau9Tc>. Among popular destinations for runaway Polish serfs were Dachy of Lithuania and outskirts of Moscow
    state, where orders were milder at the time (also many joined incipient Cossack communities in the southern near-steppe areas).

    So the Polish serfdom was primarily applied to the Polish own peasants,
    but then the modern Polish nationalism made an effort to symbolically
    uplift, in a retrospect, the Polish peasants somewhat closer to the
    Szlachta image, and the insistent shift of focus to the Ukraine serves
    the trick "to contrast" Poles vs Ukrainians. If you ask a modern Pole
    about his or her ancestors then the most popular answer today would be
    they were from a minor Szlachta and the like. It's somewhat like every
    second Arab in Middle East or North Africa would tell you that his or
    her descency is directly from Prophet Muhammad.

    Within the modern Polish nationalist sentiment, the Ukrainians serve as
    a legit image of inferiority <https://archive.is/JEQWP>, which explains
    the effort to shift the "Polish serfdom" towards the Ukraine.

    In turn, in an effort to extrapolate the Szlachta image to all the
    Poles, the "Sarmatism" article in the Wikipedia <https://is.gd/e0IMGt>, rhetorically operates, for the most part, in terms of simply "Poles".

    Such a "sarmatian" pattern is somewhat common. In various communities
    it's possible to notice people who tend to accentuate their 'special'
    origin against "the average", which sometimes may be true but often
    seems a wishful fantasy. Within Europe, such a search for a special
    origin became especially popular at the time the Europeans call the Age
    of Renaissance and Enlightenment. It particular, it produced the basis
    for the European "scientific racism".

    In the 9th century - six centuries before the European "Renaissance" -
    the chieftains of the most early Russia implemented the same pattern by inventing a special "Varyagnian" origin for themselves (also by use of
    the Nordic names like Igor and Oleg). For the Russian warlords, it
    served both the internal purpose (alienation from the low populace) and
    their "foreign policy". From the latter perspective, at the time, the
    pagan Norsemen were already well-known as a formidable barbaric power throughout the Christian Europe, so the Russian princes - when making
    their looting raids into the Eastern Roman Empire (a.k.a. Byzantium) - resorted to cunningly misrepresent themselves under a vague image close
    to this brandname.

    The Szlachta's especially contemptuous racist-like attitude towards
    their local populace contributed to the fact that most of the European
    Jewish community began concentrating within Poland since about the 14th century, so that in the 16th century, about 80% of all the Jews in the
    world were residing in Poland (which eventually formed the Jewish major Ashkenazim branch). Way of life of the Jewish diaspora in the medieval
    Europe was so that they maintained quite an egalitarian community among themselves and sought to sell their skills and services to regional aristocracy. The Jews put a great effort into education, so they indeed
    had something to sell. But the Jewish religion demanded to keep and
    manifest a distance between Jews and non-Jews. Local populace became
    annoyed of the fact that their noblemen maintain "special relationship"
    with the 'alien' Jews, and sometimes it led to situations when local aristocracy had to choose between the irritated populace and the Jews.
    In Poland, the Jewish community could be less afraid of an anti-Jewish
    action "on polular demand" from the Poland's authorities, which made it
    a comfortable place for the Jews at the time.



    | The common American derogatory term based on the Latin word for
    | black, 'niger', finds a surprising semantic correlation in the
    | Polish word 'czern' [adj. czarny - 'black'] ..

    Niger means simply 'black' in Latin, while czern is not an exclusively
    Polish word, it's a common Slavic word, that also means simply 'black'.
    In languages related to agricultural societies, long before the modern
    racist 'color' obsession, it was quite a common case to figuratively associate low class peasants with 'blackness', because these people are digging in the soil, and the soil is black, the dirt on their hands,
    faces, clothes is 'black'. The American N-word, in turn, is primarily
    linked with the skin color, so the "surprising semantic correlation" is far-fetched here.

    In east-European languages, and in Russian language as well, one may encounter various white and black this and that, and not only white and
    black but also various other colors figuratively applied to various
    entities. One'd keep in mind the fact that most of such figurative use
    of colors evolved in language many centuries ago, long before people
    started to know and think anything about 'races'. Attempts to interpret
    a someone's old color symbolism on the basis of the modern Western
    racial 'color' concepts might naturally lead to wrong conclusions, and
    it's better to avoid too acute semantic insights.



    | A shocking proof of how terribly effective this Sarmatian ideology
    | was, can be found in a personal letter of Zygmunt Krasinski, one of
    | the three greatest Polish Romantic poets in the 19th century (and a
    | descendant of an aristocratic family). In the mid-19th century
    | Krasinski wrote to his English friend Henry Reeve:
    |
    | "Believe me and rest assured that apart from aristocracy there's
    | nothing in Poland: no talent, no bright minds, nor sense of
    | sacrifice. Our third state [bourgeoisie] is nonsense; our peasants
    | are machines. Only we [nobles] are Poland."

    Contemptuous attitude from nobles (especially, non-prominent or petty
    nobles) towards both the poor "baser" peasantry and the rich people (merchants, "bourgeoisie") of non-noble descent is more or less common
    for a feudal environment, it's not specifically Polish. Compare it with
    this French poem <https://archive.is/UwbU1> "It pleases me immensely"
    and so on. The same accents. The only notable fact is that the French
    verse is from the 12th century while the Polish excerpt is more recent.



    | .. the disdainful approach of Polish lords toward Ukrainian peasants
    | as a key cause of brutal, bloody uprisings in Ukraine, from the
    | Khmelnitsky Uprising in 1648 ..

    When there's a strong correlation between social status and ethnicity,
    it always implies certain social tensions and may even promise a great turmoil. So was the Poland in the 17th century, and moreover, there was
    also religious issue. It was "Ukrainian" uprising (the term "Ukraine"
    at the time was still not well established) but not an uprising of the
    whole Polish peasantry, because in addition to "disdainful approach" of
    the landlords, the proto-Ukrainains also suffered from religious and
    ethnic discrimination within Poland. Three in one. The Khmelnitsky 1648 Uprising was not the very first, it was rather the first succesful.

    One of the side effects of the uprising was emergence of the Jewish Chassidism, by the way. The rebels targeted not only the Polish
    landlords but also the Jews as "Polish collaborators", given that the landlords widely employed the Jews as their assistants / middlemen to supervise over the peasants, or leased to Jews their villages, so the peasants often might experience that "disdainful approach" by means of
    the Jews. The uprising turned out a big shock for the Poland's Jews, it undermined their confidence that they might feel safe while relying on
    the Poland's aristocracy only, and stumulated their spiritual quest.



    | In recent years the historical issue of serfdom was subject to a
    | lively and at times heated debate .. The real nature of serfdom was
    | addressed by historians .. but without much consensus ..

    It seems clear that the basic attribute that primarily defines "the
    real nature of serfdom" is a restriction on freedom of movement and
    choice of residence. Such restrictions may vary in their strictness. In
    the modern world, most of countries have laws somehow restricting
    freedom of movement of their citizens in some cases. Misc. "residence permits" and "registrations" may be seen akin to serfdom. Unpaid debts
    may be a reason for forbidding a person to move freely. Etc etc ..

    From the "capitalist economic" perspective, the serfdom(-like) practice
    is sort of unfair competition. Hired workers can compete by choosing an employer, landless peasants can compete through choosing a landlord (or through domestication of some untapped lands). Disabling them from
    freedom of movement and choice means they can no longer economically
    compete this way. From the market perspective, a 'fair' competition, including through migrations, is a driver for economy. But the state
    still can find some non-capitalist, non-market reasons to conclude that uncontrolled migrations may cause some unwanted effects. Understanding
    of when and why the state resorted to such a logic, and implemented it,
    would likely answer about the real nature of serfdom.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 25 06:06:58 2022
    XPost: alt.history, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.ukrainian
    XPost: soc.history

    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 19:58:27 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>
    wrote:

    I have recently come across a notable "leftist" article "Slavery vs.
    Serfdom, or Was Poland a Colonial Empire?" <https://is.gd/Cc5INv>.
    Title of the original article in Polish poses not a question, but a
    statement <https://is.gd/2uiAle> "Colonialism Polish Style, a Long
    Shadow of Serfdom". There's much about the Ukraine. Since the Ukraine
    is currently a hot topic, some may be interested to better know the >Ukraine-related history. And some critical remarks below.



    | Starting in the 15th century, [serfdom] gradually and consistently
    | disappeared from the West .. At around the same time Eastern and
    | Central Europe witnessed the exact opposite trend ..

    The most primary reason for serfdom was a state need / desire of ruling
    class to control / constraint migrations of low classes. It may be well >illustrated by the fact that the serfdom policies ceased earliest - or
    did not even appear - in such areas where were natural (geographical) >barriers for mass migrations. Britain and Japan both illustrate it, -
    if you are a poor low class then you hardly can easily migrate out from
    the island, you have no choice other than staying within the area.

    In Western Europe, regional developments by the 15th century made mass >migrations of low class people difficult ("all lands are already taken
    by someone"), that underminded the background for serfdom policies.

    For Poland, situation was so that the post-Golden Horde ("post-Mongol") >formations in the western part of the Eurasian Steppe became relatively >weaker, and there was the (proto)Cossack presence maturing in the
    steppeside, which opened for agricultural activities new untapped areas
    that were seen too vulnerable to nomadic raids before.

    For Russia, situation became much more drastic since the 16th century.
    The incorporation of the middle and south Volga area, then the Cossack >expansion up to the Urals and furher into Siberia, enabled vast new
    areas for agricultural use, which in turn stimulated the desire of the >landlords to constraint migrations out from "the center". This is why,
    within Russia, the serfdom policies happened only in "central Russia"
    region (including the Ukraine).

    In the 1920s, the Russian serfdom was heavily demonized by the early
    Soviet propaganda, which saw its goal in denigrating "old regime" as
    much as possible in order to contrast it to the post-revolution regime.
    It inter alia had a long-term international impact so that many started
    to believe that the serfdom system in the Tsarist Russia was something >extremely special (which in fact was not so). I once posted here about
    it <https://is.gd/vu02Az>.



    | .. landowners in 19th century Ukraine were extremely cruel and their
    | cruelty was never appropriately punished .. But *szlachta* had also
    | more sophisticated modes of subjugating peasants ..

    Here the Polish writer cites a French researcher who inaccurately
    shifted the mid-late-18th century realities and mores to "19th century >Ukraine". The French writer then complained <https://is.gd/eVbBJJ> that
    in Poland his historical research is meeting with some hostility, since
    the ideologues of the post-communist regime promote narrative of >"civilization mission of Poles" towards the Ukrainians, and they
    naturally dislike the facts that can disnoble the narrative.

    Some irony is that the Polish colonisation of the Ukraine was continued
    even *within* Russia in the 19th century. In the 16th century, since
    the incorporation of Duchy of Lithuania, Poland made a purposeful
    effort to economically and cuturally "polonize" the upper class of the
    ethnic Russian area (i.e. the Ukraine) within Poland. Polish 'magnates' >acquired lands there, and the native landlords got more favor if they
    sought to mimic Poles, converted to Catholicism etc. It created such a >situation when almost all the landlords in the Poland's Russian area
    were Polish, while their serfs were Russian (Ukrainian). In later time,
    when more post-Poland lands, then a half of Poland itself, fell under
    control of Russia, the imperial government cared pretty little about
    "ethnic" etc topics. They realized some issues only since the mid-19th >century, when turbulent pre-revolutionary developments already started.

    Along with that, the historical Polish impact is a secondary, minor
    factor regarding the current hostile situation between Russia and the >post-coup Kiev regime (despite the insanely anti-Russia stance of the
    modern Poland's government). The primary factor is the Banderist
    ideology <https://bit.ly/3q5yHav>, which is historically linked to
    Galicia, - a peculiar west-Ukrainian region that got especial impact
    from Austrian empire. Their pro-Hitlerian nostalgism isn't "Polish".



    | .. on the other, the local Ruthenian nobility ..

    "Ruthenian" means "Russian". It's just an alternative form for Russian
    in Western Latin / Romance languages. "Ruth-" instead of "Rus-", and
    nothing more. "Ruthenian" is rather common in Western use in order to >designate various "western" fragments of what originally was
    "pre-Mongol" Russia. Many Western writers aren't enthusiastic to remind
    a reader that some originally Russian people(s) turned out outside of
    Russia, so let's call them "Ruthenian" instead.



    | .. colonial discourse in the Polish presence in Ukraine, like the
    | myth of terra nullius (where the steppes of Ukraine, allegedly devoid
    | of human presence, can be compared to the vast of American West ..

    Hey, it's not a myth. The steppes of the present day Ukraine, until the
    18th century, were not allegedly, but very literally "devoid of human >presence". More accurately, the steppes were controlled by the nomads,
    or it was a kind of "gray zone". But the nomads need huge chunks of
    land to run their mobile pastoralism properly. This is why such lands >naturally look "devoid of human presence" (like in Mongolia, where few >Mongols occupy a huge land that seems devoid of human presence).

    In contrast to waterless Mongolia, agricultural use of those western
    steppes would be much more productive against the environment-friendly
    mobile pastoralism. But if an enterprising man started farming there,
    then one day a group of equestrian guys would come to him for bringing
    him to the popular slave market in Crimea. End of farming.

    In the 15-17th centuries, those Ottoman-backed equestrian guys were a >non-illusory pain in the ass for their neighbours (not only for Poland >(Ukraine) and Russia, but also for the Chircassian Islamic brothers),
    because they abused their equestrian skills to raid and capture people,
    and then sell them to slavery.



    | .. the Polish colonization of Ukraine .. required some kind of
    | rationalization, which was provided by the Sarmatian ideology ..
    | constructing ideologies, which would justify social and racial
    | boundaries .. Around 16th century the nobility started to identify
    | themselves with the descendants of the ancient Sarmatian tribe ..,
    | which .. had once conquered the lands of Slavs and subjugated
    | its rural population. This genetic myth helped to establish a
    | symbolical division between members of the nobility (that is the top
    | ten percent of the population) and the rural local population ..

    It's boldly misleading to declare the Ukraine as a primary reason for >emergence of "the Sarmatian ideology". The "symbolical division"
    between "Ruthenians" and Poles existed since the Christrian Schism, and
    the Poland's Catholics cultivated an idea of superiority over the
    Orthodox Church. It didn't demand invention of additional concepts.

    The primary reason for the Sarmatism ideology was a wish to rationalize
    a symbolical division between the low class ethnic Poles and the noble
    enthic Poles ("Szlachta"), and the Ukraine topic is aside of that.

    From this Polish article, it's visible that while describing the ugly >features of the Polish serfdom, the writer persistently seeks to shift
    focus on the Ukraine, moreover, the very title manifests an intention to
    link "serfdom" with "colonization" (of the Ukraine). It's not a honest >bundle. With regard to the Poland's history, including the Ukraine, it
    would be more honest to describe serfdom as serfdom and colonization as >colonization, separately.

    The serfdom(-like) regulations in Poland were introduced since the 12th >century, and such laws gradually became more stringent long before the >Ukraine fell under Poland's governance.

    An invariable companion of the serfdom practice is the issue of flight
    of peasants from the residences - assigned to certain landlords - where
    they must mandatory be. In Poland, it became a painful issue already in
    the 15th century <https://is.gd/Mau9Tc>. Among popular destinations for >runaway Polish serfs were Dachy of Lithuania and outskirts of Moscow
    state, where orders were milder at the time (also many joined incipient >Cossack communities in the southern near-steppe areas).

    So the Polish serfdom was primarily applied to the Polish own peasants,
    but then the modern Polish nationalism made an effort to symbolically
    uplift, in a retrospect, the Polish peasants somewhat closer to the
    Szlachta image, and the insistent shift of focus to the Ukraine serves
    the trick "to contrast" Poles vs Ukrainians. If you ask a modern Pole
    about his or her ancestors then the most popular answer today would be
    they were from a minor Szlachta and the like. It's somewhat like every
    second Arab in Middle East or North Africa would tell you that his or
    her descency is directly from Prophet Muhammad.

    Within the modern Polish nationalist sentiment, the Ukrainians serve as
    a legit image of inferiority <https://archive.is/JEQWP>, which explains
    the effort to shift the "Polish serfdom" towards the Ukraine.

    In turn, in an effort to extrapolate the Szlachta image to all the
    Poles, the "Sarmatism" article in the Wikipedia <https://is.gd/e0IMGt>, >rhetorically operates, for the most part, in terms of simply "Poles".

    Such a "sarmatian" pattern is somewhat common. In various communities
    it's possible to notice people who tend to accentuate their 'special'
    origin against "the average", which sometimes may be true but often
    seems a wishful fantasy. Within Europe, such a search for a special
    origin became especially popular at the time the Europeans call the Age
    of Renaissance and Enlightenment. It particular, it produced the basis
    for the European "scientific racism".

    In the 9th century - six centuries before the European "Renaissance" -
    the chieftains of the most early Russia implemented the same pattern by >inventing a special "Varyagnian" origin for themselves (also by use of
    the Nordic names like Igor and Oleg). For the Russian warlords, it
    served both the internal purpose (alienation from the low populace) and
    their "foreign policy". From the latter perspective, at the time, the
    pagan Norsemen were already well-known as a formidable barbaric power >throughout the Christian Europe, so the Russian princes - when making
    their looting raids into the Eastern Roman Empire (a.k.a. Byzantium) - >resorted to cunningly misrepresent themselves under a vague image close
    to this brandname.

    The Szlachta's especially contemptuous racist-like attitude towards
    their local populace contributed to the fact that most of the European
    Jewish community began concentrating within Poland since about the 14th >century, so that in the 16th century, about 80% of all the Jews in the
    world were residing in Poland (which eventually formed the Jewish major >Ashkenazim branch). Way of life of the Jewish diaspora in the medieval
    Europe was so that they maintained quite an egalitarian community among >themselves and sought to sell their skills and services to regional >aristocracy. The Jews put a great effort into education, so they indeed
    had something to sell. But the Jewish religion demanded to keep and
    manifest a distance between Jews and non-Jews. Local populace became
    annoyed of the fact that their noblemen maintain "special relationship"
    with the 'alien' Jews, and sometimes it led to situations when local >aristocracy had to choose between the irritated populace and the Jews.
    In Poland, the Jewish community could be less afraid of an anti-Jewish
    action "on polular demand" from the Poland's authorities, which made it
    a comfortable place for the Jews at the time.



    | The common American derogatory term based on the Latin word for
    | black, 'niger', finds a surprising semantic correlation in the
    | Polish word 'czern' [adj. czarny - 'black'] ..

    Niger means simply 'black' in Latin, while czern is not an exclusively
    Polish word, it's a common Slavic word, that also means simply 'black'.
    In languages related to agricultural societies, long before the modern
    racist 'color' obsession, it was quite a common case to figuratively >associate low class peasants with 'blackness', because these people are >digging in the soil, and the soil is black, the dirt on their hands,
    faces, clothes is 'black'. The American N-word, in turn, is primarily
    linked with the skin color, so the "surprising semantic correlation" is >far-fetched here.

    In east-European languages, and in Russian language as well, one may >encounter various white and black this and that, and not only white and
    black but also various other colors figuratively applied to various
    entities. One'd keep in mind the fact that most of such figurative use
    of colors evolved in language many centuries ago, long before people
    started to know and think anything about 'races'. Attempts to interpret
    a someone's old color symbolism on the basis of the modern Western
    racial 'color' concepts might naturally lead to wrong conclusions, and
    it's better to avoid too acute semantic insights.



    | A shocking proof of how terribly effective this Sarmatian ideology
    | was, can be found in a personal letter of Zygmunt Krasinski, one of
    | the three greatest Polish Romantic poets in the 19th century (and a
    | descendant of an aristocratic family). In the mid-19th century
    | Krasinski wrote to his English friend Henry Reeve:
    |
    | "Believe me and rest assured that apart from aristocracy there's
    | nothing in Poland: no talent, no bright minds, nor sense of
    | sacrifice. Our third state [bourgeoisie] is nonsense; our peasants
    | are machines. Only we [nobles] are Poland."

    Contemptuous attitude from nobles (especially, non-prominent or petty
    nobles) towards both the poor "baser" peasantry and the rich people >(merchants, "bourgeoisie") of non-noble descent is more or less common
    for a feudal environment, it's not specifically Polish. Compare it with
    this French poem <https://archive.is/UwbU1> "It pleases me immensely"
    and so on. The same accents. The only notable fact is that the French
    verse is from the 12th century while the Polish excerpt is more recent.



    | .. the disdainful approach of Polish lords toward Ukrainian peasants
    | as a key cause of brutal, bloody uprisings in Ukraine, from the
    | Khmelnitsky Uprising in 1648 ..

    When there's a strong correlation between social status and ethnicity,
    it always implies certain social tensions and may even promise a great >turmoil. So was the Poland in the 17th century, and moreover, there was
    also religious issue. It was "Ukrainian" uprising (the term "Ukraine"
    at the time was still not well established) but not an uprising of the
    whole Polish peasantry, because in addition to "disdainful approach" of
    the landlords, the proto-Ukrainains also suffered from religious and
    ethnic discrimination within Poland. Three in one. The Khmelnitsky 1648 >Uprising was not the very first, it was rather the first succesful.

    One of the side effects of the uprising was emergence of the Jewish >Chassidism, by the way. The rebels targeted not only the Polish
    landlords but also the Jews as "Polish collaborators", given that the >landlords widely employed the Jews as their assistants / middlemen to >supervise over the peasants, or leased to Jews their villages, so the >peasants often might experience that "disdainful approach" by means of
    the Jews. The uprising turned out a big shock for the Poland's Jews, it >undermined their confidence that they might feel safe while relying on
    the Poland's aristocracy only, and stumulated their spiritual quest.



    | In recent years the historical issue of serfdom was subject to a
    | lively and at times heated debate .. The real nature of serfdom was
    | addressed by historians .. but without much consensus ..

    It seems clear that the basic attribute that primarily defines "the
    real nature of serfdom" is a restriction on freedom of movement and
    choice of residence. Such restrictions may vary in their strictness. In
    the modern world, most of countries have laws somehow restricting
    freedom of movement of their citizens in some cases. Misc. "residence >permits" and "registrations" may be seen akin to serfdom. Unpaid debts
    may be a reason for forbidding a person to move freely. Etc etc ..

    From the "capitalist economic" perspective, the serfdom(-like) practice
    is sort of unfair competition. Hired workers can compete by choosing an >employer, landless peasants can compete through choosing a landlord (or >through domestication of some untapped lands). Disabling them from
    freedom of movement and choice means they can no longer economically
    compete this way. From the market perspective, a 'fair' competition, >including through migrations, is a driver for economy. But the state
    still can find some non-capitalist, non-market reasons to conclude that >uncontrolled migrations may cause some unwanted effects. Understanding
    of when and why the state resorted to such a logic, and implemented it,
    would likely answer about the real nature of serfdom.

    Thanks very much for that, very interesting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oleg Smirnov@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 25 10:40:21 2022
    XPost: alt.history, soc.culture.russian, soc.culture.ukrainian
    XPost: soc.history

    Steve Hayes, <news:doar8h11is8sflq3gn020n3dlg5oefa5re@4ax.com>
    On Tue, 26 Apr 2022 19:58:27 +0300, "Oleg Smirnov" <os333@netc.eu>

    Thanks very much for that, very interesting.

    Thanks for attention.

    ...

    The Poland-related history may also be of interest regarding the
    general topic of "classic democracy" in historical perspective, and particularly regarding the importance of classes of disenfranchised
    for keeping such democracy functional <https://tinyurl.com/28quywys>
    At the time when western and central Europe strengthened their
    Absolutism, the Polish noblemen maintained "democratic spirit" among themselves, even elected their king through vote, so that today some
    depict then Poland as "Europe's [forgotten] democratic ancestor" <https://tinyurl.com/y4tedy7q>. However, this "democracy for nobles"
    was harmoniously combined with toughly oppressive policies towards
    domestic low classes (backed with appropriate ideological settings).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)