• Rich People Are the Big Barrier to Stabilizing the Climate

    From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 7 06:19:04 2023
    "Forget, for a moment, your national identity. Consider inequality from an astronaut’s perspective. Imagine the earth and all the suffering on it. Think globally, as if there were no countries or borders, but only one great planetary pool of humans,
    which can be partitioned into nations, or races, or genders, or ethnic and religious communities. Or into classes—like “the global one percent”—defined by wealth, income, and emissions.
    ...
    In this global inequality approach, one doesn’t compare the wealth of an average American to that of an average Chinese, or the emissions of an average Colombian to those of an average Russian. One ignores countries, at least initially, to reveal the
    bigger picture.
    ...
    Because income and emissions are highly correlated, this approach allows us to better answer the question of why humanity’s cumulative emissions have doubled since the early years of the U.N. climate treaty. The Stockholm Environment Institute’s
    Carbon Inequality Era paper shows that, in the period since 1990, as emissions almost doubled, the rising consumption of the world’s top 10 percent was responsible for almost half of that increase—almost as much as the entire remaining 90 percent of
    the world’s population. The emissions of the richest 5 percent (37 percent of all post-1990 emissions) were particularly notable, and the emissions of the top 1 percent (who contributed 21 percent of all post-1990 emissions) were far greater still.

    Many of us will live to see the consequences of this emissions growth, as the temperature begins a true overshoot (and not just a transient spike) above 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 degrees Fahrenheit). To have a 50/50 chance of holding the 1.5-degree line,
    we have to limit emissions from the beginning of 2023 onward to about 250 metric gigatons of carbon dioxide. At current global emissions levels, that budget will be exhausted in 2029. But the world’s richest 10 percent would exhaust it on their own by
    about 2035, even if the rest of us were to cease emitting anything at all.

    The problem isn’t just that wealthy people generate more carbon emissions than poor people. It’s that the sheer overwhelming extent to which they do so belies the endlessly repeated claim that rising fossil fuel consumption and even the
    destabilization of the climate system are justified by the need to lift the world’s poor from poverty.

    The truth is that the poorer, energy-deprived half of the human population has barely contributed to, and barely benefited from, these past three decades’ rise in emissions, during which the earth’s temperature has risen perilously. Rather, they
    continue to struggle, even as they’re pummeled by the devastations of an ever more inhospitable climate system. "

    https://newrepublic.com/article/176558/emissions-rich-people-problem

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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 12 14:39:48 2023
    On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 2:19:06 PM UTC, ltlee1 wrote:
    "Forget, for a moment, your national identity. Consider inequality from an astronaut’s perspective. Imagine the earth and all the suffering on it. Think globally, as if there were no countries or borders, but only one great planetary pool of humans,
    which can be partitioned into nations, or races, or genders, or ethnic and religious communities. Or into classes—like “the global one percent”—defined by wealth, income, and emissions.
    ...
    In this global inequality approach, one doesn’t compare the wealth of an average American to that of an average Chinese, or the emissions of an average Colombian to those of an average Russian. One ignores countries, at least initially, to reveal the
    bigger picture.
    ...
    Because income and emissions are highly correlated, this approach allows us to better answer the question of why humanity’s cumulative emissions have doubled since the early years of the U.N. climate treaty. The Stockholm Environment Institute’s
    Carbon Inequality Era paper shows that, in the period since 1990, as emissions almost doubled, the rising consumption of the world’s top 10 percent was responsible for almost half of that increase—almost as much as the entire remaining 90 percent of
    the world’s population. The emissions of the richest 5 percent (37 percent of all post-1990 emissions) were particularly notable, and the emissions of the top 1 percent (who contributed 21 percent of all post-1990 emissions) were far greater still.

    Many of us will live to see the consequences of this emissions growth, as the temperature begins a true overshoot (and not just a transient spike) above 1.5 degrees Celsius (2.7 degrees Fahrenheit). To have a 50/50 chance of holding the 1.5-degree line,
    we have to limit emissions from the beginning of 2023 onward to about 250 metric gigatons of carbon dioxide. At current global emissions levels, that budget will be exhausted in 2029. But the world’s richest 10 percent would exhaust it on their own by
    about 2035, even if the rest of us were to cease emitting anything at all.

    The problem isn’t just that wealthy people generate more carbon emissions than poor people. It’s that the sheer overwhelming extent to which they do so belies the endlessly repeated claim that rising fossil fuel consumption and even the
    destabilization of the climate system are justified by the need to lift the world’s poor from poverty.

    The truth is that the poorer, energy-deprived half of the human population has barely contributed to, and barely benefited from, these past three decades’ rise in emissions, during which the earth’s temperature has risen perilously. Rather, they
    continue to struggle, even as they’re pummeled by the devastations of an ever more inhospitable climate system. "

    https://newrepublic.com/article/176558/emissions-rich-people-problem


    " THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN INCOME AND EMISSIONS
    To allocate emissions across national populations, we used the following procedure.

    First, we assume that emissions per capita would not fall below a minimal level, regardless of
    income. We assumed that even if income were zero, there would still be consumption and thus
    emissions. For the minimal emissions level, which varied by country, we chose emissions at an
    income equal to 30% of median income. This level corresponds to one-half the level defined for
    the European Union’s risk-of-poverty threshold, which is 60% of median income after taxes and
    transfers.5 This can be contrasted with the approach taken by Oxfam (2015), who assumed a
    threshold income of one-half the mean. While acknowledging that the median has better
    properties than the mean for highly skewed distributions,6 and that the factor of one-half is
    arbitrary, they note that their estimates are consistent with the emissions figures for the US
    estimated by Ummel (2014). Ummel’s study is indeed careful and interesting. However, his
    estimated emissions inequality is much farther below income inequality than is typically found.7
    Our approach also includes an arbitrary factor of one-half. We reason this way: our threshold is
    related to the median, rather than the mean; if 0.6 of the median indicates a risk of poverty in a
    high-income region, then it is a plausible relative benchmark; actual minimal emissions should
    be well below that of a household at risk of poverty. Until better (or at least less ambiguous)
    data become available, we assume a factor of one-half of that threshold, or 0.3 of the median.

    Second, we assume that above a certain level, emissions do not continue to rise with income.
    Rather we make the extremely conservative assumption that emissions are limited at a hard
    upper bound, regardless of income, as opposed to continuing to rise with income at a perhaps
    diminished rate. We set that ceiling at a conservative value of 300 tCO2/cap, notwithstanding
    clear empirical evidence that this is below the emissions associated with high-income, high
    consumption lifestyles. For example, Gössling (2019) estimated the emissions associated with
    air travel in 2017 for a set of ten public personalities who regularly broadcast their travels on
    social media. Of the ten, six had emissions exceeding 300 tCO2, including three with emissions
    exceeding 1,000 tCO2. The analysis by Chancel and Piketty (2015) estimated average
    emissions of the richest 1% of particularly wealthy countries, such as the US, Luxembourg,
    Singapore and Saudi Arabia, to be in the 200–300 tCO2e/capita range. They demonstrated the
    plausibility of an emissions rate of 300 tCO2e/capita by outlining a plausible lifestyle with
    elements that would generate this level of emissions: travel by commercial airline and private
    vehicle, heating and cooling of a large home, upstream production of food and other
    consumables, etc. Ummel (2014) also provides evidence that 100 tCO2/capita is not
    unreasonable, by deriving an emissions level of 55 tCO2e/capita for the top 2% United States
    income group based on expenditure data. This seems consistent with our threshold of 300
    tCO2/capita, which in our analysis lies at the threshold to the much wealthier top 0.1% United
    States income group.8 Consistency with national inventories is maintained with a proportional
    upward scaling of emissions at lower incomes.

    Third, we assume that between the upper and lower bounds discussed above, emissions rise
    monotonically with income, and that the relationship can be expessed as an elasticity of
    emissions with respect to income. Depending on income-dependent consumption behaviour in
    a given country, emissions may grow faster than income (elasticity >1), in proportion to income
    (e=1), or more slowly than income (elasticity <1). The same approach was taken by by Baer et
    al. (2008), Chakravarty et al. (2009), Chancel and Piketty (2015) and Gore (2015).
    This assumption is grounded in the findings of numerous studies relating income, consumption,
    energy use and/or emissions, which draw upon a variety of methodologies (see for example
    Wiedenhofer et al. 2013; Ummel 2014; Hubacek et al. 2017; Wiedenhofer et al. 2017; Dorband
    et al. 2019; Song et al. 2019; Li et al. 2020; Oswald et al. 2020; Ivanova and Wood 2020).

    Some studies are based on consumption surveys of a set of households that span a range of
    incomes, coupled with national input-output matrices and emissions coefficients, or sometimes
    coupled with estimates from lifecycle analysis. Others are done through either partial or whole
    economy general equilibrium modelling, and some assessing carbon tax incidence also purport
    to calculate indirect market-mediated effects, which is extraneous to an analysis of current
    consumption-based carbon emissions. Some additionally account for any of various
    mechanisms for revenue recycling (e.g., per capita dividend), which can also be neglected for
    our purposes."

    https://www.sei.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/research-report-carbon-inequality-era.pdf

    Very complicated issue. As people are becoming wealthier they are also emitting more carbon
    certainly makes sense in general. However, the lower, upper bound, as well as assumed
    linearity appear to be arbitrary. In particular, However, the lower bound of 30% of median income
    seems high. This would skew increase carbon emission over time toward higher income groups
    including groups getting wealthy more recently.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From David P.@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 12 15:03:27 2023
    ltlee1 wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote: [ . . . ]
    Very complicated issue. As people are becoming wealthier they are also emitting more carbon
    certainly makes sense in general. However, the lower, upper bound, as well as assumed
    linearity appear to be arbitrary. In particular, However, the lower bound of 30% of median income
    seems high. This would skew increase carbon emission over time toward higher income groups
    including groups getting wealthy more recently.
    -----------------------------
    Overpopulation is the problem. We were overpopulated 50 YEARS AGO,
    when the scientists called for Zero Population Growth!!
    --
    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to David P. on Mon Nov 13 08:33:04 2023
    On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 11:03:29 PM UTC, David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote: [ . . . ]
    Very complicated issue. As people are becoming wealthier they are also emitting more carbon
    certainly makes sense in general. However, the lower, upper bound, as well as assumed
    linearity appear to be arbitrary. In particular, However, the lower bound of 30% of median income
    seems high. This would skew increase carbon emission over time toward higher income groups
    including groups getting wealthy more recently.
    -----------------------------
    Overpopulation is the problem. We were overpopulated 50 YEARS AGO,
    when the scientists called for Zero Population Growth!!
    --
    --

    Many learned people the sun moved around the earth not that long ago.
    As far as I can tell, Zero Population Growth had never gain mainstream.
    Since you had repeated the claim of overpopulation multiple time, would
    you please also tell how many out of how many scientists called for Zero Population Growth.

    Anyway, the The Stockholm Environment Institute’s Carbon Inequality paper seems to blame people getting better lives in great number as the barrier of stabilizing the climate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David P.@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 14 15:31:02 2023
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote: [ . . . ]
    Very complicated issue. As people are becoming wealthier they are also emitting more carbon
    certainly makes sense in general. However, the lower, upper bound, as well as assumed
    linearity appear to be arbitrary. In particular, However, the lower bound of 30% of median income
    seems high. This would skew increase carbon emission over time toward higher income groups
    including groups getting wealthy more recently.
    -----------------------------
    Overpopulation is the problem. We were overpopulated 50 YEARS AGO,
    when the scientists called for Zero Population Growth!!
    --
    --
    Many learned people the sun moved around the earth not that long ago.
    As far as I can tell, Zero Population Growth had never gain mainstream.
    Since you had repeated the claim of overpopulation multiple time, would
    you please also tell how many out of how many scientists called for Zero Population Growth.
    -------------------
    The scientists looking at our eco-footprint & projecting into the future called for
    Zero Population Growth 50 years ago. The other scientists were not qualified to
    speak on that subject. The people replied with: "Numbers don't matter!" and "There's no limits", and the people were wrong! Every species has natural enemies
    that keep its numbers in check. The Laws of Nature supersede and overrule human laws!
    --
    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to David P. on Wed Nov 15 10:16:39 2023
    On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 11:31:05 PM UTC, David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote: [ . . . ]
    Very complicated issue. As people are becoming wealthier they are also emitting more carbon
    certainly makes sense in general. However, the lower, upper bound, as well as assumed
    linearity appear to be arbitrary. In particular, However, the lower bound of 30% of median income
    seems high. This would skew increase carbon emission over time toward higher income groups
    including groups getting wealthy more recently.
    -----------------------------
    Overpopulation is the problem. We were overpopulated 50 YEARS AGO,
    when the scientists called for Zero Population Growth!!
    --
    --
    Many learned people the sun moved around the earth not that long ago.
    As far as I can tell, Zero Population Growth had never gain mainstream. Since you had repeated the claim of overpopulation multiple time, would you please also tell how many out of how many scientists called for Zero Population Growth.
    -------------------
    The scientists looking at our eco-footprint & projecting into the future called for
    Zero Population Growth 50 years ago. The other scientists were not qualified to
    speak on that subject. The people replied with: "Numbers don't matter!" and "There's no limits", and the people were wrong! Every species has natural enemies
    that keep its numbers in check. The Laws of Nature supersede and overrule human laws!
    --
    --
    Have you ever heard Julian Simon and his bet with Paul Ehrlich?
    The following from Wikepedia:

    "In 1968, Ehrlich published The Population Bomb, which argued that mankind was facing a demographic catastrophe with
    the rate of population growth quickly outstripping growth in the supply of food and resources. Simon was highly skeptical
    of such claims, so proposed a wager, telling Ehrlich to select any raw material he wanted and select "any date more than a
    year away," and Simon would bet that the commodity's price on that date would be lower than what it was at the time of the
    wager.

    Ehrlich and his colleagues picked five metals that they thought would undergo big price increases: chromium, copper, nickel,
    tin, and tungsten. Then, on paper, they bought $200 worth of each, for a total bet of $1,000, using the prices on September 29,
    1980, as an index. They designated September 29, 1990, 10 years hence, as the payoff date. If the inflation-adjusted prices of
    the various metals rose in the interim, Simon would pay Ehrlich the combined difference. If the prices fell, Ehrlich et al. would
    pay Simon.

    Between 1980 and 1990, the world's population grew by more than 800 million, the largest increase in one decade in all of history.
    But by September 1990, the price of each of Ehrlich's selected metals had fallen. Chromium, which had sold for $3.90 a pound in
    1980, was down to $3.70 in 1990. Tin, which was $8.72 a pound in 1980, was down to $3.88 a decade later.[2]

    As a result, in October 1990, Paul Ehrlich mailed Julian Simon a check for $576.07 to settle the wager in Simon's favor. "

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David P.@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 16 00:12:19 2023
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote: [ . . . ]
    Very complicated issue. As people are becoming wealthier they are also emitting more carbon
    certainly makes sense in general. However, the lower, upper bound, as well as assumed
    linearity appear to be arbitrary. In particular, However, the lower bound of 30% of median income
    seems high. This would skew increase carbon emission over time toward higher income groups
    including groups getting wealthy more recently.
    -----------------------------
    Overpopulation is the problem. We were overpopulated 50 YEARS AGO,
    when the scientists called for Zero Population Growth!!
    --
    --
    Many learned people the sun moved around the earth not that long ago.
    As far as I can tell, Zero Population Growth had never gain mainstream. Since you had repeated the claim of overpopulation multiple time, would you please also tell how many out of how many scientists called for Zero Population Growth.
    -------------------
    The scientists looking at our eco-footprint & projecting into the future called for
    Zero Population Growth 50 years ago. The other scientists were not qualified to
    speak on that subject. The people replied with: "Numbers don't matter!" and "There's no limits", and the people were wrong! Every species has natural enemies
    that keep its numbers in check. The Laws of Nature supersede and overrule human laws!
    --
    --
    Have you ever heard Julian Simon and his bet with Paul Ehrlich?
    The following from Wikepedia: [ . . . ]
    Ehrlich and his colleagues picked five metals ....
    -----------------
    Can you make a list of all the things we need besides those five metals?
    --
    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to David P. on Thu Nov 16 01:55:50 2023
    On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 8:12:21 AM UTC, David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote: [ . . . ]
    Very complicated issue. As people are becoming wealthier they are also emitting more carbon
    certainly makes sense in general. However, the lower, upper bound, as well as assumed
    linearity appear to be arbitrary. In particular, However, the lower bound of 30% of median income
    seems high. This would skew increase carbon emission over time toward higher income groups
    including groups getting wealthy more recently.
    -----------------------------
    Overpopulation is the problem. We were overpopulated 50 YEARS AGO, when the scientists called for Zero Population Growth!!
    --
    --
    Many learned people the sun moved around the earth not that long ago. As far as I can tell, Zero Population Growth had never gain mainstream.
    Since you had repeated the claim of overpopulation multiple time, would
    you please also tell how many out of how many scientists called for Zero
    Population Growth.
    -------------------
    The scientists looking at our eco-footprint & projecting into the future called for
    Zero Population Growth 50 years ago. The other scientists were not qualified to
    speak on that subject. The people replied with: "Numbers don't matter!" and
    "There's no limits", and the people were wrong! Every species has natural enemies
    that keep its numbers in check. The Laws of Nature supersede and overrule human laws!
    --
    --
    Have you ever heard Julian Simon and his bet with Paul Ehrlich?
    The following from Wikepedia: [ . . . ]
    Ehrlich and his colleagues picked five metals ....
    -----------------
    Can you make a list of all the things we need besides those five metals?
    --
    --

    Paul Ehrlich was offered to pick any raw material he wanted per his "population
    explosion" theory. Yet he lost. The first question one has to consider is whether
    Ehrlich was qualified to speak on the subject.

    Anyway, IF you really believe "The Laws of Nature supersede and overrule human
    laws", we human could have little chance acting proactively regarding Nature.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David P.@21:1/5 to All on Thu Nov 16 09:31:21 2023
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote: [ . . . ]
    Very complicated issue. As people are becoming wealthier they are also emitting more carbon
    certainly makes sense in general. However, the lower, upper bound, as well as assumed
    linearity appear to be arbitrary. In particular, However, the lower bound of 30% of median income
    seems high. This would skew increase carbon emission over time toward higher income groups
    including groups getting wealthy more recently.
    -----------------------------
    Overpopulation is the problem. We were overpopulated 50 YEARS AGO, when the scientists called for Zero Population Growth!!
    --
    --
    Many learned people the sun moved around the earth not that long ago. As far as I can tell, Zero Population Growth had never gain mainstream.
    Since you had repeated the claim of overpopulation multiple time, would
    you please also tell how many out of how many scientists called for Zero
    Population Growth.
    -------------------
    The scientists looking at our eco-footprint & projecting into the future called for
    Zero Population Growth 50 years ago. The other scientists were not qualified to
    speak on that subject. The people replied with: "Numbers don't matter!" and
    "There's no limits", and the people were wrong! Every species has natural enemies
    that keep its numbers in check. The Laws of Nature supersede and overrule human laws!
    --
    --
    Have you ever heard Julian Simon and his bet with Paul Ehrlich?
    The following from Wikepedia: [ . . . ]
    Ehrlich and his colleagues picked five metals ....
    -----------------
    Can you make a list of all the things we need besides those five metals?
    --
    --
    Paul Ehrlich was offered to pick any raw material he wanted per his "population
    explosion" theory. Yet he lost. The first question one has to consider is whether
    Ehrlich was qualified to speak on the subject.

    Anyway, IF you really believe "The Laws of Nature supersede and overrule human
    laws", we human could have little chance acting proactively regarding Nature.
    ------------------
    We're doing pretty well with agriculture, as long as we don't overdo it!
    We just need to become more humble regarding the population numbers.
    --
    --

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ltlee1@21:1/5 to David P. on Fri Nov 17 06:06:10 2023
    On Thursday, November 16, 2023 at 5:31:24 PM UTC, David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    David P. wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote:
    ltlee1 wrote: [ . . . ]
    Very complicated issue. As people are becoming wealthier they are also emitting more carbon
    certainly makes sense in general. However, the lower, upper bound, as well as assumed
    linearity appear to be arbitrary. In particular, However, the lower bound of 30% of median income
    seems high. This would skew increase carbon emission over time toward higher income groups
    including groups getting wealthy more recently.
    -----------------------------
    Overpopulation is the problem. We were overpopulated 50 YEARS AGO,
    when the scientists called for Zero Population Growth!!
    --
    --
    Many learned people the sun moved around the earth not that long ago.
    As far as I can tell, Zero Population Growth had never gain mainstream.
    Since you had repeated the claim of overpopulation multiple time, would
    you please also tell how many out of how many scientists called for Zero
    Population Growth.
    -------------------
    The scientists looking at our eco-footprint & projecting into the future called for
    Zero Population Growth 50 years ago. The other scientists were not qualified to
    speak on that subject. The people replied with: "Numbers don't matter!" and
    "There's no limits", and the people were wrong! Every species has natural enemies
    that keep its numbers in check. The Laws of Nature supersede and overrule human laws!
    --
    --
    Have you ever heard Julian Simon and his bet with Paul Ehrlich?
    The following from Wikepedia: [ . . . ]
    Ehrlich and his colleagues picked five metals ....
    -----------------
    Can you make a list of all the things we need besides those five metals? --
    --
    Paul Ehrlich was offered to pick any raw material he wanted per his "population
    explosion" theory. Yet he lost. The first question one has to consider is whether
    Ehrlich was qualified to speak on the subject.

    Anyway, IF you really believe "The Laws of Nature supersede and overrule human
    laws", we human could have little chance acting proactively regarding Nature.
    ------------------
    We're doing pretty well with agriculture, as long as we don't overdo it!
    We just need to become more humble regarding the population numbers.
    --
    --
    Whatever the laws of nature are, human mind/brains are the only thing which could
    make sense of them. Humans are solutions to all problems.

    The issue is not population size per se but what percentage of the population are
    devoted to do what. Political, social polarization as well as inequality among races
    contribute to create problems rather than solving them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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