• How to write for your reader's English

    From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 21 06:36:46 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    How to Write for Your Reader’s English

    Your English, my English. Where you were born, raised, educated, and
    live will dictate which of the Englishes you write and speak. What if
    you’re writing for a reader who uses one of the other Englishes? How
    do you write for your reader’s English?

    When you get to the robot, you turn left. You’ll see the restaurant on
    your right. Watch out for the taxis! I’ll come just now, then we’ll
    have a cooldrink.

    As a South African living in a community of expats from all over, I
    quickly learned that people didn’t always understand what I was
    talking about. South African English looks like English, sounds like
    English, is English … but sometimes it seems like it’s from another
    planet. Incidentally, a “robot” is a traffic light; “taxis” normally refer to minibuses used as a form of public transport and their
    drivers are notoriously reckless; “just now” indicates some vague
    point in the future; and a “cooldrink” is a soft drink, a soda or pop.
    The Wonder and Challenge of English

    This is the wonderful thing about English: wherever it’s spoken, it
    develops its own unique form. It’s not only about “harbour” versus “harbor,” but about the words and phrases you won’t find anywhere
    else.

    This is also the difficulty of English. I constantly have to
    “translate” from my English to the English of the person I’m speaking
    to so that they understand me. When you’re writing your book, you’ll
    want to be sure to write for your reader’s English, or at least write
    so that they understand what you’re saying.
    The Englishes

    I like to use the term “the Englishes”: US English, UK English,
    Canadian English, Australian English, and so on. In fiction, writers
    often use words and phrases unique to the area the story is set in. It
    adds local flavour. To avoid confusion, they may explain the word or
    phrase in a footnote or in a glossary at the end of the book. But is
    this a good idea for nonfiction?

    The simple answer is, it depends. If you’re writing for a local
    market, the Englishes are really a non-issue. You simply need to write
    in the form of English spoken in that market. For example, if you’re
    writing a book for the Canadian market, you’ll use Canadian English.
    Straight forward.

    But what if you’re writing for an international market? What if you
    want to release your book in various countries, each with their own
    variety of English? Then how you write for your reader’s English is a
    little more problematic.

    How do you write in such a way that everyone will understand you? How
    do you avoid misunderstandings, such as the fact that a 'thong' in
    most countries is a style of underwear but in Australia, the US, and
    parts of Canada it’s a care-free summer sandal often called a
    flip-flop? Both fit in the technical definition, as does a narrow
    strip of leather, but the common usage differs depending on where you
    are.
    Adding Color/Colour and Meaning

    In narrative nonfiction, you might want to add some colour by letting
    your characters speak their unique forms of English. Some writers
    simply explain the meanings of words by using brackets.

    For example:

    In the town of Humpty Doo I met a man who taught me Australia’s most
    famous song. He sang, “Once a jolly swagman (a transient labourer
    travelling from farm to farm looking for work) camped by a billabong
    (oxbow lake) under the shade of a coolibah tree (a type of eucalyptus
    tree).”

    ?Clearly, this isn’t the best way to do it, since using brackets
    breaks the flow of the sentence.

    Instead, as with fiction, you can use footnotes or a glossary to
    explain the terms if their meaning isn’t clear from the context.
    Better yet, you can explain the terms in the non-dialogue parts of
    your writing.

    In the town of Humpty Doo I met a man who taught me Australia’s most
    famous song. He sang, “Once a jolly swagman camped by a billabong
    under the shade of a coolibah tree.” I learned that a swagman used to
    be a transient labourer travelling from farm to farm looking for work,
    that a billabong was an oxbow lake and that a coolibah tree was a type
    of eucalyptus tree.

    ?The reader immediately gets an explanation of what the song lyrics
    mean, without having to take a break in their reading to first refer
    to a footnote or glossary.

    Writing for an international market? It takes care to write for your
    reader’s English #theenglishes #writeforyourreader #amwriting #iartg
    Click to Tweet
    Choosing to Go Neutral

    If you’re not using much dialogue in your writing, though, you might
    want to choose a more neutral form of English. Avoid slang and
    regional expressions. Instead, opt for more generally-known terms.

    Instead of using the Australian “barbie” or the South African “braai”, use the more well-known “barbecue,” for example. Instead of saying
    I'll “knock you up," which while innocuous in the UK means to
    impregnate in Canada and the US, opt for the more generic "wake you
    up." ?

    Luckily, in our increasingly interconnected world, some regional terms
    are universally understood. Most people know that what the British
    call aubergines, for instance, are what is known elsewhere as
    eggplants. Except in India and South Africa, where they’re called
    brinjals!
    Be Aware of Differing Sensitivities

    If you want to write for your reader’s English it will also help you immensely if you become more familiar with the different Englishes. Be
    aware that not everyone attaches the same meaning to a certain word.
    If you’re mindful of this, you can avoid misunderstandings or even
    causing offence.

    If I’m writing about South Africa’s ethnic groups, for instance, I’ll always explain right from the start that the term “Coloured” refers to someone who is either of mixed racial ancestry, a descendant of the
    Khoisan people or a descendant of slaves brought from the East Indies
    some three centuries ago. I do this because I know that in the United
    States, the word is considered offensive when describing a person.
    Spelling, Punctuation, Grammar

    Another aspect of the Englishes that you might be aware of is that
    there are subtle differences in spelling, punctuation and grammar.
    This is the issue of “colour” or “color,” whether to put the comma before or after the quotation marks, whether to say “my family are” or “my family is,” and so on. When you’re writing, you only need to pay attention to these differences if you’re writing for a specific local
    market.
    Write For Your Reader’s English

    If you’re writing for an international market, and you’re unsure how
    to best write for your reader’s English, simply write in the style you
    feel most comfortable with. The differences are so subtle that most
    people won’t even notice.
    About the Author Linell van Hoepen

    Linell van Hoepen has been working with words for most of her
    professional life. Editing, proofreading, ghostwriting, translating:
    she’s done it all. Having worked as a publicist and later as a
    freelancer in the publishing industry in her native South Africa,
    she’s written everything from press releases to textbooks. These days
    she lives with two dogs and a cat, between a volcano and a lake in
    Guatemala. Naturally, she still works with words.

    https://ingeniumbooks.com/how-to-write-for-your-readers-english/


    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 21 12:39:12 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    Long time, no Steve:

    Most people know that what the British call
    aubergines, for instance, are what is known else-
    where as eggplants.

    what *are* known as eggplants, maybe?

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  • From Colonel Edmund J. Burke@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 21 07:29:33 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    LOL

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  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to Anton Shepelev on Fri Mar 22 14:42:10 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 12:39:12 +0300, Anton Shepelev wrote:

    Long time, no Steve:

    Long time poor signal-noise ratio.

    Most people know that what the British call aubergines, for >>instance, are what is known else-
    where as eggplants.

    what *are* known as eggplants, maybe?

    Maybe, but its referring to an expression. So you might thing that the expression are eggplants.

    BTW: I've left my typo above intact, because there have been occasional discussions about how "another think coming" became "another thing
    coming".






    --
    Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com

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  • From Kerr-Mudd,John@21:1/5 to mail.com on Fri Mar 22 16:42:22 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 09:39:12 GMT, Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}
    mail.com> wrote:

    Long time, no Steve:

    Most people know that what the British call
    aubergines, for instance, are what is known else-
    where as eggplants.

    what *are* known as eggplants, maybe?

    Aubergeens. What are small Youth Hostels in France called?


    --
    Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

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  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 22 23:24:59 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    Kerr-Mudd,John:

    what *are* known as eggplants, maybe?

    Aubergeens. What are small Youth Hostels in France
    called?

    I am sorry, messrs. Kerr-Mudd and John, but I never
    had the wit nor cultural background to play this
    game.

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  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 22 23:34:31 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    Steve Hayes to Anton Shepelev:

    Most people know that what the British call
    aubergines, for instance, are what is known
    elsewhere as eggplants.

    what *are* known as eggplants, maybe?

    Maybe, but its referring to an expression. So you
    might thing that the expression are eggplants.

    How is it possible? If one will parse the quoted
    sentence according to the English syntax, one is
    bound to conclude that the instances of "what" can
    stand for nothing else than the vegetables called
    aubergines and eggplants.

    BTW: I've left my typo above intact, because there
    have been occasional discussions about how "anoth-
    er think coming" became "another thing coming".

    "think" is so weird as a verb that I prefer the mod-
    ern distortion. But "thing" is even more weid as a
    verb.

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  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 23 00:08:36 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    Steve Hayes to Anton Shepelev:

    As a South African living in a community of expats
    from all over,

    From all over what? Are such dangling prepositions
    another feature of South-African English?

    I quickly learned that people didn't always under-
    stand what I was talking about. South African En-
    glish looks like English, sounds like English, is
    English... but sometimes it seems like it's from
    another planet. Incidentally, a "robot" is a
    traffic light; "taxis" normally refer to minibuses
    used as a form of public transport and their
    drivers are notoriously reckless;

    These used to be rampant in Russia too, on their
    raggedy "Gazelle" minivans:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAZelle

    until the municipal transport networks ordered and
    organised the business. Now they supplement the
    large busses rather than compete with them. The
    Russian term for them may be rendered in English as
    route-bound taxi, but in my opinion mini-bus is much
    better.

    "just now" indicates some vague point in the fu-
    ture;

    Now this one is totally illogical. Dialectically,
    the wide spread of English has turned out its bane,
    because foreign cultures cruelly force it into the
    Procrustian beds of their native tongues.

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  • From Quinn C@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 22 17:23:51 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    * Anton Shepelev:

    Steve Hayes to Anton Shepelev:

    As a South African living in a community of expats
    from all over,

    From all over what? Are such dangling prepositions
    another feature of South-African English?

    No, the adverb "all over" is used ... pretty much all over.

    <https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/all_over>
    | 2 /informal/ Everywhere

    --
    But I have nver chosen my human environment. I have always
    borrowed it from someone like you or Monk or Doris.
    -- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.152

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  • From Peter Duncanson [BrE]@21:1/5 to lispamateur@crommatograph.info on Fri Mar 22 23:00:21 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 17:23:51 -0400, Quinn C
    <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

    * Anton Shepelev:

    Steve Hayes to Anton Shepelev:

    As a South African living in a community of expats
    from all over,

    From all over what? Are such dangling prepositions
    another feature of South-African English?

    No, the adverb "all over" is used ... pretty much all over.

    <https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/all_over>
    | 2 /informal/ Everywhere

    The OED definition with the earliest two quotations. Note the spelling
    "alouer" for "all over":

    2.a. Over the whole extent of something; in every part; everywhere.
    Also: over one's whole body; in every limb.

    c1440 (??a1400) Morte Arthure l. 2027 (MED) This ryche
    mane..Dresses vp dredfully the dragone of golde, With egles
    alouer.
    c1440 Prose Life Alexander (Thornton) (1913) 81 (MED) Faire
    feldes, alouer floresched wit flores.


    --
    Peter Duncanson, UK
    (in alt.english.usage)

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  • From RH Draney@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 23 00:57:14 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On 3/22/2019 4:00 PM, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 17:23:51 -0400, Quinn C
    <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

    * Anton Shepelev:

    Steve Hayes to Anton Shepelev:

    As a South African living in a community of expats
    from all over,

    From all over what? Are such dangling prepositions
    another feature of South-African English?

    No, the adverb "all over" is used ... pretty much all over.

    <https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/all_over>
    | 2 /informal/ Everywhere

    The OED definition with the earliest two quotations. Note the spelling "alouer" for "all over":

    2.a. Over the whole extent of something; in every part; everywhere.
    Also: over one's whole body; in every limb.

    c1440 (??a1400) Morte Arthure l. 2027 (MED) This ryche
    mane..Dresses vp dredfully the dragone of golde, With egles
    alouer.
    c1440 Prose Life Alexander (Thornton) (1913) 81 (MED) Faire
    feldes, alouer floresched wit flores.

    Scarecrow: "They took my arm and they threw it over there! And then
    they took my legs and threw them over there!"

    Tin Man: "That's you all over."

    ....r

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  • From CDB@21:1/5 to John on Sat Mar 23 08:02:55 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On 3/22/2019 12:42 PM, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
    Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:

    Long time, no Steve:

    Most people know that what the British call
    aubergines, for instance, are what is known else-
    where as eggplants.

    what *are* known as eggplants, maybe?

    Aubergeens. What are small Youth Hostels in France called?

    At the sign of the Incapable Cranberry. D’où viens-tu, bergère?

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  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 24 16:48:49 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    Quinn C to Anton Shepelev:

    Steve Hayes:

    As a South African living in a community of
    expats from all over,

    From all over what? Are such dangling preposi-
    tions another feature of South-African English?

    No, the adverb "all over" is used ... pretty much
    all over.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/all_over
    | 2 /informal/ Everywhere

    It is my unjustified, uneducated, but experienced
    and strong opinion that the adverb "all over" must
    be traceable, in one way or another, to a noun oc-
    curing previously in the same sentece. The connec-
    tion may go through a verb for which that noun is
    the subject or through an adjective modifying that
    noun:

    1. The [room] is dirty all over.

    2. That's [him] all over.

    3. This ryche mane..Dresses vp dredfully the
    [dragone] of golde, With egles alouer.

    4. Faire [feldes], alouer floresched wit flores.

    It cannot play the role of a noun, which it seems to
    in Steve's phrase "a community of expats from all
    over." I think that is a new and informal usage,
    whereas my rule describes one that is old and liter-
    ary.

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  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 24 19:16:02 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    [duplicate post to restore the groups Madrigal
    dropped in his reply throught GG]

    Jerry Friedman:

    "From all over" was originally American, according
    to the OED, which cites examples back to

    1860 'E. Wetherell' & 'A. Lothrop' /Say & Seal/ II. xxxvii. 422
    They came from all over; the country was gleaned.

    (Despite the apparent meter, that's prose.)

    That was my first thought after Madrigal's correc-
    tion: a typical American abuse of "over":

    There were sunbeams in plenty of the literal kind
    abroad; it was a perfect day; and everybody was
    glad of that, though some people remarked it
    would have made no difference if it had rained
    cannon-balls. Never did Pattaquasset see such a
    coming to church! never in the remembrance of Mr.
    Somers. They came from all over; the country was
    gleaned; and many a fire was raked up on the
    hearthstone that day which most Sundays got leave
    to burn and somebody to watch it.

    (http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/28545/pg28545-images.html)

    Ambrose Bierce wrote about it:

    Over for About, In, or Concerning. "Don't cry
    over spilt milk." "He rejoiced over his acquit-
    tal."

    Over for More than. "A sum of over ten thousand
    dollars." "Upward of ten thousand dollars" is
    equally objectionable.

    Over for On. "The policeman struck him over the
    head." If the blow was over the head it did not
    hit him.

    I feel no dislike for "from all around". Is it also
    correct in the context of "Say & Seal"?

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  • From CDB@21:1/5 to Anton Shepelev on Sun Mar 24 12:45:11 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On 3/24/2019 9:48 AM, Anton Shepelev wrote:
    Quinn C to Anton Shepelev:
    Steve Hayes:

    As a South African living in a community of expats from all
    over,

    From all over what? Are such dangling preposi- tions another
    feature of South-African English?

    No, the adverb "all over" is used ... pretty much all over.
    https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/all_over | 2
    /informal/ Everywhere

    It is my unjustified, uneducated, but experienced and strong
    opinion that the adverb "all over" must be traceable, in one way or
    another, to a noun oc- curing previously in the same sentece.
    The connec- tion may go through a verb for which that noun is the
    subject or through an adjective modifying that noun:

    1. The [room] is dirty all over.

    2. That's [him] all over.

    3. This ryche mane..Dresses vp dredfully the [dragone] of
    golde, With egles alouer.

    4. Faire [feldes], alouer floresched wit flores.

    That is an interesting approach. I will keep my eyes open for other occurrences of the expression, and test them against it.

    It cannot play the role of a noun, which it seems to in Steve's
    phrase "a community of expats from all over." I think that is
    a new and informal usage, whereas my rule describes one that is old
    and liter- ary.

    Perhaps the unexpressed noun here is "the world", faintly suggested by
    the notion of countries introduced by "expats".

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  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 24 22:21:33 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    CDB to Anton Shepelev:

    It is my unjustified, uneducated, but experi-
    enced and strong opinion that the adverb "all
    over" must be traceable, in one way or another,
    to a noun occuring previously in the same sen-
    tece. The connection may go through a verb for
    which that noun is the subject or through an ad-
    jective modifying that noun:

    That is an interesting approach. I will keep my
    eyes open for other occurrences of the expression,
    and test them against it.

    Consider it an adverb werewolfed from a preposition
    but retaining its craving for a noun. The differ-
    ence from "all around", which I mentioned elsewere
    in the thread, is obvious: in "all around" 'all'
    means everything, whereas in "all over" it is an in-
    ternal adverb modifying (and emphasizing) 'over'.

    Perhaps the unexpressed noun here is "the world",
    faintly suggested by the notion of countries in-
    troduced by "expats".

    which turns "all over" back into a preposition.

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  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 24 22:39:46 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    [Cross-post reinstated after Peter's post through GG]

    Peter T. Daniels to Anton Shepelev:

    It is my unjustified, uneducated, but experi-
    enced and strong opinion that the adverb "all
    over" must be traceable, in one way or another,
    to a noun occuring previously in the same sen-
    tece. The connection may go through a verb for
    which that noun is the subject or through an ad-
    jective modifying that noun:

    1. The [room] is dirty all over.

    2. That's [him] all over.

    3. This ryche mane..Dresses vp dredfully the
    [dragone] of golde, With egles alouer.

    4. Faire [feldes], alouer floresched wit flo-
    res.

    It cannot play the role of a noun, which it
    seems to in Steve's phrase "a community of ex-
    pats from all over." I think that is a new and
    informal usage, whereas my rule describes one
    that is old and literary.

    You are, as so often, wrong. If it turned out that
    Ambrose Bierce used the phrase in the ordinary
    way, would you believe that it's normal Standard
    English?

    No, because everybody may err or blunder. What,
    pray tell, is the ordinary usage of "all over" if
    not the one quoted?

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  • From CDB@21:1/5 to Quinn C on Mon Mar 25 13:55:33 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On 3/25/2019 1:42 PM, Quinn C wrote:
    * Anton Shepelev:
    CDB to Anton Shepelev:

    It is my unjustified, uneducated, but experi- enced and
    strong opinion that the adverb "all over" must be
    traceable, in one way or another, to a noun occuring previously
    in the same sen- tece. The connection may go through a verb
    for which that noun is the subject or through an ad- jective
    modifying that noun:

    That is an interesting approach. I will keep my eyes open for
    other occurrences of the expression, and test them against it.

    Consider it an adverb werewolfed from a preposition but retaining
    its craving for a noun. The differ- ence from "all around",
    which I mentioned elsewere in the thread, is obvious: in "all
    around" 'all' means everything, whereas in "all over" it is an
    in- ternal adverb modifying (and emphasizing) 'over'.

    Perhaps the unexpressed noun here is "the world", faintly
    suggested by the notion of countries in- troduced by "expats".

    which turns "all over" back into a preposition.

    Depending on the context, it could be all over town, all over the
    country, all over the world, all over the place ...

    Yes, the unexpressed noun leaves some leeway, but the point for Anton's purposes is that there should be some sort of potential object of
    "over". "World" was just an example, although I think the right one for
    the sample sentence.

    "All around" I would understand as limited to a certain distance. In
    the case of expats, neighboring countries - maybe not only direct
    neighbors, but also the countries one over (another abuse?). But not
    from all around the world.

    As I read the phrase "a community of ex-pats from all over", it can
    include people from anywhere in the world. I wonder if you're
    interpreting it as "people from everywhere in the world", which does
    seem less likely.

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  • From Quinn C@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 25 13:42:04 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    * Anton Shepelev:

    CDB to Anton Shepelev:

    It is my unjustified, uneducated, but experi-
    enced and strong opinion that the adverb "all
    over" must be traceable, in one way or another,
    to a noun occuring previously in the same sen-
    tece. The connection may go through a verb for
    which that noun is the subject or through an ad-
    jective modifying that noun:

    That is an interesting approach. I will keep my
    eyes open for other occurrences of the expression,
    and test them against it.

    Consider it an adverb werewolfed from a preposition
    but retaining its craving for a noun. The differ-
    ence from "all around", which I mentioned elsewere
    in the thread, is obvious: in "all around" 'all'
    means everything, whereas in "all over" it is an in-
    ternal adverb modifying (and emphasizing) 'over'.

    Perhaps the unexpressed noun here is "the world",
    faintly suggested by the notion of countries in-
    troduced by "expats".

    which turns "all over" back into a preposition.

    Depending on the context, it could be all over town, all over the
    country, all over the world, all over the place ...

    "All around" I would understand as limited to a certain distance. In
    the case of expats, neighboring countries - maybe not only direct
    neighbors, but also the countries one over (another abuse?). But not
    from all around the world.

    --
    for (Bell bell : bells) { bell.ring() }
    // one rule to ring them all

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  • From occam@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Mon Mar 25 20:12:42 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english

    On 21/03/2019 05:36, Steve Hayes wrote:

    If you want to write for your reader’s English it will also help you immensely if you become more familiar with the different Englishes.

    Not only. If the English document you are writing is intended for
    EurEnglish speakers (English as spoken by Continental Europeans), then
    you do well to be familiar with the native language of the target's
    native language.

    Why is this important? Imagine you are writing a proposal for funding,
    being evaluated by a panel of judges for whom English is a second language.

    You do well to exclude English idioms, avoid words which are peculiar to English and use instead words which have equivalents in (French,
    Spanish, Italian...), not just other Englishes.

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  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to CDB on Tue Mar 26 07:12:32 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 13:55:33 -0400, CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 3/25/2019 1:42 PM, Quinn C wrote:
    "All around" I would understand as limited to a certain distance. In
    the case of expats, neighboring countries - maybe not only direct
    neighbors, but also the countries one over (another abuse?). But not
    from all around the world.

    As I read the phrase "a community of ex-pats from all over", it can >include people from anywhere in the world. I wonder if you're
    interpreting it as "people from everywhere in the world", which does
    seem less likely.

    "All over" sounds quite OK to me.

    What I would question about that is the use of the word "community" in
    that context.

    Though it has become increasingly common to refer to people who share
    a common characteristic as a "community", I think it devalues the word "community" unless those people also interact with each other.

    Ex-pats from all over have nothing in common other than the fact that
    they happen, for the moment, to be in a country other than their own.

    I'm not sure if that usage of "community" is peculiarly South African.
    I think I have seen it elsewhere as well.


    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to anton.txt@gmail.com on Tue Mar 26 07:03:25 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 23:34:31 +0300, Anton Shepelev
    <anton.txt@gmail.com> wrote:

    Steve Hayes to Anton Shepelev:

    BTW: I've left my typo above intact, because there
    have been occasional discussions about how "anoth-
    er think coming" became "another thing coming".

    "think" is so weird as a verb that I prefer the mod-
    ern distortion. But "thing" is even more weid as a
    verb.

    You mean a noun, Shirley?


    --
    Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
    Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
    Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
    E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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  • From Quinn C@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 26 08:50:25 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    * Steve Hayes:

    On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 13:55:33 -0400, CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:

    On 3/25/2019 1:42 PM, Quinn C wrote:
    "All around" I would understand as limited to a certain distance. In
    the case of expats, neighboring countries - maybe not only direct
    neighbors, but also the countries one over (another abuse?). But not
    from all around the world.

    As I read the phrase "a community of ex-pats from all over", it can >>include people from anywhere in the world. I wonder if you're
    interpreting it as "people from everywhere in the world", which does
    seem less likely.

    "All over" sounds quite OK to me.

    What I would question about that is the use of the word "community" in
    that context.

    Though it has become increasingly common to refer to people who share
    a common characteristic as a "community", I think it devalues the word "community" unless those people also interact with each other.

    Ex-pats from all over have nothing in common other than the fact that
    they happen, for the moment, to be in a country other than their own.

    I'm not sure if that usage of "community" is peculiarly South African.
    I think I have seen it elsewhere as well.

    Seems common to me. It's often meant to imply that they have certain
    common interests, socially or politically - in the case of expats, for
    example, regarding immigration or the status and rights of foreigners.
    Often, that is the case, although not every single member of such a
    loose group will subscribe to the same solution of the issue they
    share.

    In your quote, I assumed the author meant people he is in contact with,
    though.

    --
    A computer will do what you tell it to do, but that may be much
    different from what you had in mind. - Joseph Weizenbaum

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  • From CDB@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Tue Mar 26 08:39:42 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On 3/26/2019 1:12 AM, Steve Hayes wrote:
    CDB <bellemarecd@gmail.com> wrote:
    Quinn C wrote:

    "All around" I would understand as limited to a certain distance.
    In the case of expats, neighboring countries - maybe not only
    direct neighbors, but also the countries one over (another
    abuse?). But not from all around the world.

    As I read the phrase "a community of ex-pats from all over", it
    can include people from anywhere in the world. I wonder if you're
    interpreting it as "people from everywhere in the world", which
    does seem less likely.

    "All over" sounds quite OK to me.

    Yes; it's an idiom. The interesting question I think Anton was
    addressing is the origin of the idiom, the plain, descriptive use of
    those words that later came slightly unstuck from reality.

    What I would question about that is the use of the word "community"
    in that context.

    Though it has become increasingly common to refer to people who
    share a common characteristic as a "community", I think it devalues
    the word "community" unless those people also interact with each
    other.

    Ex-pats from all over have nothing in common other than the fact
    that they happen, for the moment, to be in a country other than their
    own.

    I'm not sure if that usage of "community" is peculiarly South
    African. I think I have seen it elsewhere as well.

    I think the idea was that they had become a community.

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  • From Peter Moylan@21:1/5 to Steve Hayes on Tue Mar 26 23:55:37 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On 26/03/19 16:03, Steve Hayes wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Mar 2019 23:34:31 +0300, Anton Shepelev
    <anton.txt@gmail.com> wrote:

    Steve Hayes to Anton Shepelev:

    BTW: I've left my typo above intact, because there
    have been occasional discussions about how "anoth-
    er think coming" became "another thing coming".

    "think" is so weird as a verb that I prefer the mod-
    ern distortion. But "thing" is even more weid as a
    verb.

    You mean a noun, Shirley?

    I'll have to have a think about that.

    --
    Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
    Newcastle, NSW, Australia

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  • From Anton Shepelev@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 00:10:20 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    Steve Hayes to Anton Sheplev:

    "think" is so weird as a verb [Ant: noun] that I
    prefer the modern distortion. But "thing" is
    even more weid as a verb.

    You mean a noun, Shirley?

    Yes, Shirley & Lee, and Michelson & Morley.

    --
    () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
    /\ http://preview.tinyurl.com/qcy6mjc [archived]

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  • From Steve Hayes@21:1/5 to lispamateur@crommatograph.info on Wed Mar 27 06:38:40 2019
    XPost: alt.usage.english, alt.english.usage

    On Tue, 26 Mar 2019 08:50:25 -0400, Quinn C
    <lispamateur@crommatograph.info> wrote:

    * Steve Hayes:
    Though it has become increasingly common to refer to people who share
    a common characteristic as a "community", I think it devalues the word
    "community" unless those people also interact with each other.

    Ex-pats from all over have nothing in common other than the fact that
    they happen, for the moment, to be in a country other than their own.

    I'm not sure if that usage of "community" is peculiarly South African.
    I think I have seen it elsewhere as well.

    Seems common to me. It's often meant to imply that they have certain
    common interests, socially or politically - in the case of expats, for >example, regarding immigration or the status and rights of foreigners.
    Often, that is the case, although not every single member of such a
    loose group will subscribe to the same solution of the issue they
    share.

    In your quote, I assumed the author meant people he is in contact with, >though.

    Yes, I think so, in that instance. I was digressing somewhat.

    Inb the article I posted, the authoer was referring to people from
    different countries who met and formed a community of foreigners.

    But it just reminded me of the other usage, where, for example,
    instead of saying "deaf people", people will speak of "the deaf
    community".





    --
    Ignore the following - it's spammers for spambot fodder.

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