Noam Chomsky Discusses Azeri Aggression on Artsakh

October 10, 2020 at 8:07 pm David Barsamian Community, Interviews 20

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Noam Chomsky, by any measure, has led a most extraordinary life. In
one index he is ranked as the eighth most cited person in history,
right up there with Aristotle, Shakespeare, Marx, Plato and Freud. The legendary MIT professor practically invented modern linguistics. In
addition to his pioneering work in that field, he has been a leading
voice for peace and social justice for many decades. Chris Hedges says
he is “America’s greatest intellectual” who “makes the powerful, as well as their liberal apologists, deeply uncomfortable.” He is
Institute Professor Emeritus in the Department of Linguistics and
Philosophy at MIT and Laureate Professor of Linguistics and Haury
Chair in the Program in Environment and Social Justice at the
University of Arizona. At 91, he is still active, writing and giving
interviews to the media all over the world. He is the author of scores
of books, including Propaganda & the Public Mind, How the World Works,
Power Systems and Global Discontents with David Barsamian of
Alternative Radio.

On October 9, 2020, Barsamian spoke with Noam Chomsky about the war on
Artsakh, its imperial roots and the role of “malevolent actors” like Turkey’s Erdogan. The Armenian Weekly thanks Barsamian for permission
to publish the transcript of the interview below.

David Barsamian—The fighting in the Southern Caucasus might be an
example of what Edward Said called “unresolved geographies.” A legacy
of imperial cartographers. Stalin as commissar of minorities in 1920,
to placate Turkey, gave Nagorno Karabakh, which Armenians call
Artsakh, and Nakhichevan, both Armenian majority areas, to Azerbaijan.
Then with the collapse of the Soviet Union in the 1990s, fighting
breaks out, resulting in Armenian forces taking Nagorno Karabakh.
There have been skirmishes, so-called incidents, on and off since
then, but the attack by Azerbaijan that began on Sept. 27th, no doubt
in coordination with Turkey, represents a major escalation. The
reporting here [in the U.S.], the little that there is, is without
historical background or context. Fighting “erupts,” there are ancient enemies, etc.

What are the roots of this conflict?

Noam Chomsky—You’re right that Stalin drew the borders, but remember,
he was not the only one to draw borders. The entire Middle East was
carved up by French, British imperialists, drawing lines where they
wanted, which were to their benefit, taking no account of the needs
and interests of the populations. That’s a large part of the cause for
the bitter, violent conflicts raging through the region.

Take, say, Iraq. The British drew the borders around Iraq so that
Britain, not Turkey, the former Ottoman Empire, would have control
over rich oil resources in the north. That brought together Kurds and
Arabs who had nothing to do with each other. The British furthermore
wanted to make sure that the new creation they were imposing would not
be independent, would not have free easy access to the Gulf, so they
carved up the principality of Kuwait, which the British would control,
to prevent Iraq from having easy access to the Gulf. Syria, Lebanon,
Palestine, same thing. Lines drawn by French, British imperialism for
their interests. All over Africa, you see straight lines. Why? The
imperial powers were destroying Africa for their interests. Hideous
atrocities. We don’t have to go through it. Still showing up with the
people dying in the Mediterranean, fleeing from the horrors that were
created. So it’s not just Stalin; all the imperial powers.

Well in the case of Armenia and Azerbaijan, there’s a long history.
Can’t go through it, but the immediate crisis came when Azerbaijan,
surely with Turkish backing, Israeli arms pouring in. Ben Gurion
airport in Israel, Ilyushin planes coming in and out, while no other
planes are flying [into Baku], sending Israeli arms to Azerbaijan so
they can kill people, Armenians in Nagorno Karabakh. So yes, this is
an escalation. International. Russia is on both sides, Iran is
supporting Armenia, very strange relations. It’s horrible for the
people there. It’s a very dangerous situation. It’s time for
international diplomacy, for negotiations to take place to try to
dampen in down.

The actors are not the nicest people in the world, to put it mildly.
Erdogan in Turkey is basically trying to create something like the
Ottoman Caliphate, with him as caliph, supreme leader, throwing his
weight around all over the place, and destroying the remnants of
democracy in Turkey at the same time.

Israel is interested only in selling arms. They’ll sell them to
everybody no matter who they’re killing. That’s the mainstay of their economy: security and arms. Even right here where I live, the border
not far from where I live is being fortified with the crucial
assistance of Israeli so-called security forces and corporations.
That’s their job. Elbit [Systems], in this case.

There’s plenty of malevolent forces involved, and we can only hope
that there will be some kind of international effort to dampen down
the atrocities and the aggression before it really explodes into
massive massacres on the scene and, possibly, international war,
because many powerful international forces are involved.

D.B.: Turkey is also shuttling ISIS jihadi fighters from Syria, and
paying their salaries to go fight with the Azerbaijanis against the
Armenians.

N.C.: That’s apparently true. Turkey’s probably doing the same in
Libya, one of the other places where Erdogan is trying to show his
power. Yes, that’s reported in Azerbaijan.

D.B.: Armenia in 2018 had a peaceful democratic revolution led by
Nikol Pashinyan overthrowing the ruling oligarchy. This is one of the
few instances where there was a peaceful revolution replacing an
autocratic regime in the post-Soviet states. It wasn’t well-reported
on here in the U.S.

N.C.: As far as I know, there was essentially no interest in the
United States. If there was, I failed to detect it. Yes it was, for
once, apparently a real democratic revolution. What has happened
beyond that, I don’t really know the details.

D.B.: You know my background is Armenian and I’ve been to the Republic
of Armenia. It’s a relatively poor country, landlocked, has a small population of three million. I went to some villages, and I noticed
that there were no young or middle-aged men in the village, so I asked
around: where is everybody? And they said all the menfolk had gone to
Russia because there is no work here. So Armenia is in a kind of
desperate situation.

N.C.: All the more reason why there should be some major international
effort to terminate the current aggression, and to try to find some
way to resolve the convoluted problem of Nagorno Karabakh, where
there’s an Armenian population inside an Azerbaijani controlled area.
It’s not an easy one to resolve, but through reasonable negotiations
that could be an outcome that is possible.

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