An etymology and translation question.
Would someone with access to the OED (Jerry Friedman?) or similar etymological dictionary let me know when "projector" first was used
for a person who initiated business projects and ventures?
I think it has now been superseded by words like "entrepreneur", but
it was in use like that in the 18th century -- I just want to know
when it began, and if it was in use in that sense in the second half
of the 17th cenury.
Also, could anyone with knowledge of Russian let me know if it could conceivably be used as a translation for the Russion "promyshlenik" in
the 17th century.
For what it's worth, I'm writing a children's novel, and though it is fiction, I don't want to mislead kids with grossly anachronistic word
usage -- minor anachronisms are probably unavoidable.
An etymology and translation question.
Would someone with access to the OED (Jerry Friedman?) or similar etymological dictionary let me know when "projector" first was used
for a person who initiated business projects and ventures?
I think it has now been superseded by words like "entrepreneur", but
it was in use like that in the 18th century -- I just want to know
when it began, and if it was in use in that sense in the second half
of the 17th cenury.
On 02/12/2021 10:56, Steve Hayes wrote:
An etymology and translation question.
Would someone with access to the OED (Jerry Friedman?) or similar
etymological dictionary let me know when "projector" first was used
for a person who initiated business projects and ventures?
I think it has now been superseded by words like "entrepreneur", but
it was in use like that in the 18th century -- I just want to know
when it began, and if it was in use in that sense in the second half
of the 17th cenury.
Yes, projector was the word used by the French before they stumbled
across 'entrepreneur', following the remark made by George W.
(Don't believe everything Snopes.com tells you. It cites the
pathological liar Alastair Campbell, who would deny his own grandmother
if it served his political purposes.)
On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:08:18 +0100, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 02/12/2021 10:56, Steve Hayes wrote:
An etymology and translation question.
Would someone with access to the OED (Jerry Friedman?) or similar
etymological dictionary let me know when "projector" first was used
for a person who initiated business projects and ventures?
I think it has now been superseded by words like "entrepreneur", but
it was in use like that in the 18th century -- I just want to know
when it began, and if it was in use in that sense in the second half
of the 17th cenury.
Yes, projector was the word used by the French before they stumbled
across 'entrepreneur', following the remark made by George W.
(Don't believe everything Snopes.com tells you. It cites the
pathological liar Alastair Campbell, who would deny his own grandmother
if it served his political purposes.)
Did snopes.com say that George W. lived in the 17th century?
On 13-Dec-21 4:30, Steve Hayes wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 11:08:18 +0100, occam <nobody@nowhere.nix> wrote:
On 02/12/2021 10:56, Steve Hayes wrote:
An etymology and translation question.
Would someone with access to the OED (Jerry Friedman?) or similar
etymological dictionary let me know when "projector" first was used
for a person who initiated business projects and ventures?
I think it has now been superseded by words like "entrepreneur", but
it was in use like that in the 18th century -- I just want to know
when it began, and if it was in use in that sense in the second half
of the 17th cenury.
Yes, projector was the word used by the French before they stumbled
across 'entrepreneur', following the remark made by George W.
(Don't believe everything Snopes.com tells you. It cites the
pathological liar Alastair Campbell, who would deny his own grandmother
if it served his political purposes.)
Did snopes.com say that George W. lived in the 17th century?
No, but here Jacob Rees Mogg is known as the "Honourable Member for the
18th century".
My modern Russian dictionary says "promyshlenik"
means "industrialist", but I'm sure it didn't mean that in
17th -century Siberia. So I'll stick with "projector".
Steve Hayes:
My modern Russian dictionary says "promyshlenik"
With a double `n' -- promyshlennik.
means "industrialist", but I'm sure it didn't mean that in
17th -century Siberia. So I'll stick with "projector".
Those are good translators. I believe the Demidovs were a
family of inducstrialist
On 14/12/2021 08:27, Anton Shepelev wrote:
Steve Hayes:
My modern Russian dictionary says "promyshlenik"
With a double `n' -- promyshlennik.
means "industrialist", but I'm sure it didn't mean that in
17th -century Siberia. So I'll stick with "projector".
Those are good translators. I believe the Demidovs were a
family of inducstrialist
You might be right. After all, if it looks like an inducstrialist, swims
like an inducstrialist, and quacks like an inducstrialist, it's probably
an inducstrialist.
Anton Shepelev:
Those are good translators. I believe the Demidovs
were a family of inducstrialist
You might be right. After all, if it looks like an in-
ducstrialist, swims like an inducstrialist, and quacks
like an inducstrialist, it's probably an inducstrialist.
That's harsh. Funny, but harsh.
Would someone with access to the OED (Jerry Friedman?) or
similar etymological dictionary let me know when "projec-
tor" first was used for a person who initiated business
projects and ventures?
[...]
Also, could anyone with knowledge of Russian let me know
if it could conceivably be used as a translation for the
Russion "promyshlenik" in the 17th century.
Steve Hayes:
Would someone with access to the OED (Jerry Friedman?) or
similar etymological dictionary let me know when "projec-
tor" first was used for a person who initiated business
projects and ventures?
[...]
Also, could anyone with knowledge of Russian let me know
if it could conceivably be used as a translation for the
Russion "promyshlenik" in the 17th century.
To clarify my previous answer, I will remark that
`promyslennik' is not a person that creates start-ups and
sells them to another and more permament owner in order then
to initiate more start-ups.
Nor did `industry' originally
denote mechanised large-scale production with high separa-
tion of labor. `industry' is a "persevering determination to
perform a task", "habitual diligence in any employment or
pursuit, either bodily or mental," and "any department or
branch of art, occupation, or business; especially, one
which employs much labor and capital and is a distinct
branch of trade."
That certainly isn't how I picture 17th-century promysh-
lenniki in Sibera. Werent many of them fur trappers and
traders?
Steve Hayes:
That certainly isn't how I picture 17th-century promysh-
lenniki in Sibera. Werent many of them fur trappers and
traders?
Yes, but not all. Some of them were pioneering industrial-
ists in the modern sense, e.g. the aforementioned Demidovs,
the Stroganovs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroganov_family
and the Dutch merchant Vinius:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Vinius
The problem is that the hunter and capitalist senses began
to converge in exactly the 17th century.
On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 19:20:04 +0300, Anton Shepelev <anton.txt@g{oogle}mail.com> wrote:
Steve Hayes:
That certainly isn't how I picture 17th-century promysh-
lenniki in Sibera. Werent many of them fur trappers and
traders?
Yes, but not all. Some of them were pioneering industrial-
ists in the modern sense, e.g. the aforementioned Demidovs,
the Stroganovs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroganov_family
and the Dutch merchant Vinius:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Vinius
The problem is that the hunter and capitalist senses began
to converge in exactly the 17th century.
Thank you, that is very helpful.
Perhaps I'll give the projector/promyhlennik character in my story the
name "Stroganov" - scion of an obscure branch of the family, of
course.
Perhaps I'll give the projector/promyhlennik character in
my story the name "Stroganov" -- scion of an obscure
branch of the family, of course.
Why not the inventive cook?
Steve Hayes:
Perhaps I'll give the projector/promyhlennik character in
my story the name "Stroganov" -- scion of an obscure
branch of the family, of course.
Quite possible. Such dynasties as the Stroganovs may be
called *pioneer* industrialists. Yermak and his six hundred
men began the affiliation of Syberia to the Russian tsardom
when Stroganov employed his services as a guard against Tar-
tar raids from across the border.
I have heard of other fictional characters of Russian inspi-
ration, such as Rasputin, Baba Yaga, and Medwed (the orignal
name of Beorn in Tolkien's early drafts).
You confuse me. Having a Russian daughter-in-law, I'm very
familiar with the fictional "Baba Yaga". She used to joke
with my grandsons about Baba Yaga coming after them if
they were bad. Her Halloween costume was Baba Yaga one
year.
I've also read about Grigori Rasputin. He may have been a
mystic and a religious charlatan, but he was a real person
until he was assassinated in 1916.
Yet, you have described both as "fictional characters".
Tony Cooper:
You confuse me. Having a Russian daughter-in-law, I'm very
familiar with the fictional "Baba Yaga". She used to joke
with my grandsons about Baba Yaga coming after them if
they were bad. Her Halloween costume was Baba Yaga one
year.
I've also read about Grigori Rasputin. He may have been a
mystic and a religious charlatan, but he was a real person
until he was assassinated in 1916.
Right, yet he exercised some kind of influence over tsare-
vich Alexey that let him relieve his pains. Some say it is
through this influence that he became an intimate friend of
tsaritsa Alexandra, and through her imposed his (evil) will
upon the weak-willed Nicolas II. He said Russian Empire
would last until he lived, and it fell after he perished.
Since we at Russian Culture, Agony (1981) is a notable movie
featuring Rasputin:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081991/
Yet, you have described both as "fictional characters".
I wrote "finctional characters of Russian origin", meaning
characters in non-Russian fiction that were inspired by or
derived from Russian characters, whether fictional (Baba Ya-
ga) or real (Rasputin).
Baba Yaga and Rasputin in Hellboy movies (if you haven't
watched them, don't bother!) are both purely fictional char-
acters, right?
I did look up the "Hellboy" movies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00fMhETHQME
I did not add it to my "must watch" list.
J. J. Lodder:
Why not the inventive cook?
Andre Dupont? According to my personal intuitive etymology,
the name of the meal derives from the meaning of the surname
`Stroganov', in the root of which is the Russian verb `stro-
gat'' (????????) -- with a colloquial sense of cutting into
small pieces.
Anton Shepelev:
J. J. Lodder:
Steve Hayes:
Perhaps I'll give the projector/promyhlennik charac-
ter in my story the name "Stroganov" - scion of an
obscure branch of the family, of course.
Why not the inventive cook?
Andre Dupont? According to my personal intuitive etymol-
ogy, the name of the meal derives from the meaning of
the surname `Stroganov', in the root of which is the
Russian verb `strogat'' () -- with a colloquial
sense of cutting into small pieces.
You snipped too much again. Is it really so hard for you
to get it right?
Steve Hayes:
Perhaps I'll give the projector/promyhlennik character in
my story the name "Stroganov" -- scion of an obscure
branch of the family, of course.
Quite possible. Such dynasties as the Stroganovs may be
called *pioneer* industrialists. Yermak and his six hundred
men began the affiliation of Syberia to the Russian tsardom
when Stroganov employed his services as a guard against Tar-
tar raids from across the border.
I have heard of other fictional characters of Russian inspi-
ration, such as Rasputin, Baba Yaga,
I dislike this
phenomenon in two cases: when it follows the trend of abus-
ing Russian characters as antagonists and villains, and when
it pretends some historical basis while cruelly misinforming
the audience, as in our recent movie "The Admiral" about ad-
miral Kolchak.
Didn't the promyshlenniki expand the border?
Ah, I've already included Baba Yaga. Mainly to save the
characters a bit of time and effort to cross a mountain
range on the border -- have them carried overnight in a
house on chicken legs.
I dislike this phenomenon in two cases: when it follows
the trend of abusing Russian characters as antagonists
and villains, and when it pretends some historical basis
while cruelly misinforming the audience, as in our re-
cent movie "The Admiral" about admiral Kolchak.
I'll bear that in mind.
Steve Hayes:
Didn't the promyshlenniki expand the border?
Sometimes, but not necessarily. They were not conquerors,
nor even American pioneers.
Ah, I've already included Baba Yaga. Mainly to save the
characters a bit of time and effort to cross a mountain
range on the border -- have them carried overnight in a
house on chicken legs.
Well, Baba Yaga has a much faster means of transporta-
tion -- a large flying mortar, which she uses to abduct peo-
ple:
https://mysonnik.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/post_5cbdd3936b3ae.jpg
This is the right place to confess that I never liked
Tolkien's use of avitation (Eagles) to save his heroes in
apparently lost situations. Orks and goblins never have an-
ti-air weapons, where the Eagles themselves said they feared
the bows of men...
I dislike this phenomenon in two cases: when it follows
the trend of abusing Russian characters as antagonists
and villains, and when it pretends some historical basis
while cruelly misinforming the audience, as in our re-
cent movie "The Admiral" about admiral Kolchak.
I'll bear that in mind.
I think that good historical fiction interpolates its plot
between the fixed points of historical fact.
On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 00:27:19 +0300, Anton Shepelev
<anton.txt@gmail.com> wrote:
Steve Hayes:
Perhaps I'll give the projector/promyhlennik character in
my story the name "Stroganov" -- scion of an obscure
branch of the family, of course.
Quite possible. Such dynasties as the Stroganovs may be
called *pioneer* industrialists. Yermak and his six hundred
men began the affiliation of Syberia to the Russian tsardom
when Stroganov employed his services as a guard against Tar-
tar raids from across the border.
Didn't the promyshlenniki expand the border?
I have heard of other fictional characters of Russian inspi-
ration, such as Rasputin, Baba Yaga,
Ah, I've already included Baba Yaga. Mainly to save the characters a
bit of time and effort to cross a mountain range on the border --
have them carried overnight in a house on chicken legs.
and Medwed (the orignal >name of Beorn in Tolkien's early
drafts).
Hmm,, interesting possibilities.
I dislike this
phenomenon in two cases: when it follows the trend of abus-
ing Russian characters as antagonists and villains, and when
it pretends some historical basis while cruelly misinforming
the audience, as in our recent movie "The Admiral" about ad-
miral Kolchak.
I'll bear that in mind.
Steve Hayes:
Ah, I've already included Baba Yaga. Mainly to save the
characters a bit of time and effort to cross a mountain
range on the border -- have them carried overnight in a
house on chicken legs.
https://k8g7u9q7.stackpathcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/elp-pictures-at-exhibition-rehearsals2.jpg
[Posted to oc.culture.russian,soc.history inspite of Reply-To:]
Adam Funk:
Steve Hayes:
Ah, I've already included Baba Yaga. Mainly to save the
characters a bit of time and effort to cross a mountain
range on the border -- have them carried overnight in a
house on chicken legs.
https://k8g7u9q7.stackpathcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/elp-pictures-at-exhibition-rehearsals2.jpg
A surrealistic interpretation fit for a moderninstic living
room. Your picture is from the back of a CD that pretends
to be inspired by Russian and Nordic folklore. Does it sound
as advertised?
I never understood such inspirations whenever
they were claimed. "The Call of Cthulhu" by Metallica, for
example, abuses Lovecraftian heritage merely to attract at-
tention. Or do you think their "Creeping death" truly in-
spired by the book of Exodus? On the other hand, I should
like to hear a solo for the (retuned?) viol written under
the impression of "The Music of Erich Zann..."
Yaga's hut with offspring figures briefly towards the end of
internationally acclaimed Soviet plasticine stop-motion pic-
ture "There fell yesteryear's snow" --
https://youtu.be/r4Qemwz7y5o?t=960
I still remember the origin of Baba Yaga that I read as a
child in an antology of Russian 18-th Russian fantasy (for
those who think Karamzin and Pushkin the fathers of our lit-
erary language!). The Devil was boiling twelve evil wives
in a huge cauldron. He was so shocked at what he saw inside
that he took the cauldron and crashed it forcefully onto the
floor, breaking the creature's leg. He then reconsidered and
made her a leg of bone by way of a protesis.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 296 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 21:44:08 |
| Calls: | 6,646 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 12,191 |
| Messages: | 5,327,495 |
