I ask this conceptually, not whether it makes sense or not for SpaceX.
How difficult would it be to convert Falcon9 from kerosene/Merlin to Methane/Raptor engines?
is this a question of rebuilding first stage from scratch and only keep
the grid fins, landing gear and software?
I ask this conceptually, not whether it makes sense or not for SpaceX.
How difficult would it be to convert Falcon9 from kerosene/Merlin to Methane/Raptor engines?
is this a question of rebuilding first stage from scratch and only keep
the grid fins, landing gear and software?
Or just change engine mounts, and use the LOX tank design onto the
methane fuel tank ?
Since the Raptor engines are already designed/tested, they already have
the tooling to make engines, and the fuselage for Falcon9, the software,
grid fins, landing gear, and interafce to stage2, just curious whether
it would represent an order of magnitute similar to building new rocket
or whether it would be relatively minor % of developping from scratch.
And more generically from a market point of view: Will starship
obliterate the demand for smaller launchers such as Falcon9, or will customers still want "their own" smaller launcher to get to their
desired obrit on their own timing without requiriong cooprdination with
many other customers who also want same orbit and are ready with their payloads at same time?
In article <es7zI.46245$k_.7859@fx43.iad>, jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca says...
I ask this conceptually, not whether it makes sense or not for SpaceX.
How difficult would it be to convert Falcon9 from kerosene/Merlin to
Methane/Raptor engines?
Difficult. Changing the fuel changes pretty much everything.
is this a question of rebuilding first stage from scratch and only keep
the grid fins, landing gear and software?
Rebuild from scratch. The lower density of liquid methane (430 kg/cubic meters) compared to kerosene (775-840 kg/cubic meters) would mean you'd
need to increase the diameter since Falcon is already pushing the
fineness ratio close to the limits. So, you wouldn't be able to reuse
any of the tooling and couldn't transport the stages with semi-trucks.
Or just change engine mounts, and use the LOX tank design onto the
methane fuel tank ?
See above.
Since the Raptor engines are already designed/tested, they already have
the tooling to make engines, and the fuselage for Falcon9, the software,
grid fins, landing gear, and interafce to stage2, just curious whether
it would represent an order of magnitute similar to building new rocket
or whether it would be relatively minor % of developping from scratch.
Pretty much redesign from scratch.
And more generically from a market point of view: Will starship
obliterate the demand for smaller launchers such as Falcon9, or will
customers still want "their own" smaller launcher to get to their
desired obrit on their own timing without requiriong cooprdination with
many other customers who also want same orbit and are ready with their
payloads at same time?
Time will tell.
instead, and see how that works out.-- Katy Jennison
-- you need 3.5 Raptors to match the thrust of 9 Merlins (depending on
which source you use for Raptor and Merlin thrust; WP for me)
-- my rough sketch suggests you can fit 5 Raptors in the skirt of an
F9, one of them in the center
-- for a density 438.9 g/l (which may be the super-chilled density at
-173 C), the existing RP-1 tankage could supply 5 Raptors for 91
seconds or 4 Raptors for 114 seconds.
-- F9 first stage time is typically 162 seconds.
On 2021-06-20 21:31, Snidely wrote:
-- you need 3.5 Raptors to match the thrust of 9 Merlins (depending on
which source you use for Raptor and Merlin thrust; WP for me)
-- my rough sketch suggests you can fit 5 Raptors in the skirt of an
F9, one of them in the center
-- for a density 438.9 g/l (which may be the super-chilled density at
-173 C), the existing RP-1 tankage could supply 5 Raptors for 91
seconds or 4 Raptors for 114 seconds.
-- F9 first stage time is typically 162 seconds.
But would they be able to keep fuselage width of Falcon to get enough
delta V to match kerosene fuelse Falcon9 ? Just crusoiu on whether this
is close, or not even in the same ballpark.
Can they stretch Falcon 1 like they do commercial aircraft to lenghten
the methane tank that replaces the kerosene one? (I realise that
changes centre of gravity so software needs adjustments).
Jeff already answered this: No. The Falcon 9 is as tall as its width supports (see fineness).
On 2021-06-21 03:24, Snidely wrote:
Jeff already answered this: No. The Falcon 9 is as tall as its width
supports (see fineness).
I hadn't understood the part about inability to stretch it. So if it
can't be stretched and current tanks sizes not enough, then I guess it
can't happen.
Different question: is methane competitive for commerial launch business
or does kerosene have a big advantage (simpler, smaller rockets) ?
aka: if it weren't for a desire to refuel on Mars, would SpaceX have
selected Methane for a large commercial launcher?
In article <es7zI.46245$k_.7859@fx43.iad>, jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca says...
I ask this conceptually, not whether it makes sense or not for SpaceX.
How difficult would it be to convert Falcon9 from kerosene/Merlin to
Methane/Raptor engines?
Difficult. Changing the fuel changes pretty much everything.
is this a question of rebuilding first stage from scratch and only keep
the grid fins, landing gear and software?
Rebuild from scratch. The lower density of liquid methane (430 kg/cubic meters) compared to kerosene (775-840 kg/cubic meters) would mean you'd
need to increase the diameter since Falcon is already pushing the
fineness ratio close to the limits. So, you wouldn't be able to reuse
any of the tooling and couldn't transport the stages with semi-trucks.
After serious thinking Jeff Findley wrote :
In article <es7zI.46245$k_.7859@fx43.iad>, jfmezei.spamnot@vaxination.ca says...
I ask this conceptually, not whether it makes sense or not for SpaceX.
How difficult would it be to convert Falcon9 from kerosene/Merlin to
Methane/Raptor engines?
Difficult. Changing the fuel changes pretty much everything.
is this a question of rebuilding first stage from scratch and only keep
the grid fins, landing gear and software?
Rebuild from scratch. The lower density of liquid methane (430 kg/cubic meters) compared to kerosene (775-840 kg/cubic meters) would mean you'd need to increase the diameter since Falcon is already pushing the
fineness ratio close to the limits. So, you wouldn't be able to reuse
any of the tooling and couldn't transport the stages with semi-trucks.
Hence Starship and SuperHeavy.
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