Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:<snip>
As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death >announcement:
https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young
If you read that and found "blatant racism", you're the problem.
In article <c26a9206-4a8c-4ec3-811b-191ec6039e42@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...<snip>
John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
From above:
This image is a photoshopped manipulation of File:John W. Young on
the Moon.jpg in which the flag of the United States of America has
been replaced with the Confederate flag. The astronaut in this photo
is John Young, commander of Apollo 16, and in the background is the
land feature which was named Stone Mountain in honor of the
Confederate States of America monument in Georgia, the site of the
founding of the second Ku Klux Klan in 1915, and featuring very large
carvings of three Confederate leaders of the US Civil War: President
Jefferson Davis, General Robert E. Lee and General 'Stonewall'
Jackson.
Ok, a photoshopped picture with an assertion that the lunar feature
"Stone Mountain" was named after Stone Mountain in Georgia (we'll get to that later). From Wikipedia:
Stone Mountain is a quartz monzonite dome monadnock and the site
of Stone Mountain Park near Stone Mountain, Georgia. At its
summit, the elevation is 1,686 feet (514 m) MSL and 825 feet
(251 m) above the surrounding area. Stone Mountain is well-known
for not only its geology, but also the enormous rock relief on
its north face, the largest bas-relief in the world.[1] The
carving depicts three Confederate figures during the Civil War:
Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson.
Young is no longer around to share his 2018 perspective on this
tribute he had
chosen for 1972. Perhaps Charlie Duke would like to give us his. Imagine if
today someone wanted to name the most prominent landmark on a Moon mission in a
way that honored prominent people who were willing to fight and die in order to
preserve the institution of slavery.
It would be interesting to get Ken Mattingly's take on this issue as well. All
3 members of the A16 crew had strong ties to the deep South.
It's your assertion that John Young must be either a racist or racist sympathizer because either he, or his crewmate, named Stone Mountain on
the moon after Stone Mountain in Georgia. Alrighty then.
Time for primary sources, since you're too lazy to substantiate your own assertions with such.
Apollo 16 Lunar Surface Journal - Post Landing https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16.postland.html
From above:
[Duke - ... And then Stone Mountain, we picked that
'cause it looked like Stone Mountain in Georgia. ...
So, right here is a quote from Duke that they picked the name because
that lunar feature "looked like Stone Mountain in Georgia".
Your assertion that the crew must be racist based on this one choice of
a name is very tenuous at best.
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:<snip>
John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
"This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
In other words, it's a LIE.
The question marks in the title were put there because those who do not know John Young personally could easily arrive at a conclusion that he is supporting racism with this particular, prominent choice.
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:<snip>
As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
announcement:
https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young
If you read that and found "blatant racism", you're the problem.
As with Madge's Palmolive, when you are soaking in something then it can be difficult to gain perspective on what you're surrounded by. Like the old adage that the last to discover what water is would be a fish.
In the case of Apollo 16, John Young spent formative years in the Atlanta area, and went to college there. If you live in a region that is steeped in hundreds of years of racist history, then it can be very difficult to see Stone Mountain for what somany people see it as. A tribute to pro-slavery attitudes, where *millions* were willing to kill in order to preserve slavery.
And now, because of John Young's decision, along with the decisions of NASA to go along with it ...and to continue going along with it, we have this pro-slavery monument up on the Moon as well as in Atlanta.
If an astronaut today tried to do a similar kind of dedication to an icon that has such strong ties to being pro-slavery, people would FREAK OUT. NASA themselves would freak out. It would be enough to get you kicked off the crew, and they'd send yourbackup and leave you on the ground to re-evaluate your value system ...as a newly minted non-astronaut.
Now I don't know what Jeanette Epps did to lose her ride, but I'm going to guess that it wasn't that she got busted for supporting the Confederacy.
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:<snip>
John Young's pro-slavery message is right there in the very first photo at the
top of the page. Here it is with all hint of subtlety removed:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
"This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
In other words, it's a LIE.
Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
All that the photoshopping does is call attention to these facts, for those who may not be aware of them. What you dismiss as a lie, an unbiased historian could clearly see as "artistic license" that is heavily supported and justified by these hardfacts.
It would be very interesting to learn if Apollo 16 carried any *actual* Confederate flags with them to the Moon. That would be another great question for Charlie Duke to answer.
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:<snip>
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
"This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
In other words, it's a LIE.
Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
You're fine up to here. Then you run clean off the mental rails.
Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
That's not a 'fact'. That's your racist delusions.
facts.All that the photoshopping does is call attention to these facts, for those who may not be aware of them. What you dismiss as a lie, an unbiased historian could clearly see as "artistic license" that is heavily supported and justified by these hard
No. It's a lie, pure and simple.
It would be very interesting to learn if Apollo 16 carried any *actual* Confederate flags with them to the Moon. That would be another great question for Charlie Duke to answer.
Perhaps one of the crew was a slave?
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:<snip>
As Madge used to say... "You're soaking in it."
In this case, John Young is soaking in blatant racism. The evidence was all
over the John Young tributes. Like right here, in the NASA.gov death
announcement:
https://www.nasa.gov/astronautprofiles/young
If you read that and found "blatant racism", you're the problem.
As with Madge's Palmolive, when you are soaking in something then it can be difficult to gain perspective on what you're surrounded by. Like the old adage that the last to discover what water is would be a fish.
Perhaps you need to stop soaking your head? So, according to the old
adage, humans are unlikely to discover air?
many people see it as. A tribute to pro-slavery attitudes, where *millions* were willing to kill in order to preserve slavery.In the case of Apollo 16, John Young spent formative years in the Atlanta area, and went to college there. If you live in a region that is steeped in hundreds of years of racist history, then it can be very difficult to see Stone Mountain for what so
It's a GEOGRAPHIC FEATURE.
And now, because of John Young's decision, along with the decisions of NASA to go along with it ...and to continue going along with it, we have this pro-slavery monument up on the Moon as well as in Atlanta.
The only racist here seems to be YOU.
your backup and leave you on the ground to re-evaluate your value system ...as a newly minted non-astronaut.If an astronaut today tried to do a similar kind of dedication to an icon that has such strong ties to being pro-slavery, people would FREAK OUT. NASA themselves would freak out. It would be enough to get you kicked off the crew, and they'd send
And your sort of thinking is presumably why we're not going back to
the Moon anytime soon. After all, didn't the Moon shine down on the Confederacy, too?
Now I don't know what Jeanette Epps did to lose her ride, but I'm going to guess that it wasn't that she got busted for supporting the Confederacy.
It's usually something medical.
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:<snip>
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
"This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
In other words, it's a LIE.
Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
You're fine up to here. Then you run clean off the mental rails.
Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
That's not a 'fact'. That's your racist delusions.
For whatever reason, you've dismissed the date of completion (with the launch date of Apollo 16) as a racist delusion. Clearly hard facts here.
And then you dismiss Stone Mountain being a racist hotspot as part of this "delusion", when it is perfectly clear to me, and perfectly clear to folks like MLK that this is well established information.
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:<snip>
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:John_Young_Apollo_16-Stone_Mountain_Confederate_Flag.jpg
"This image is a photoshopped manipulation..."
In other words, it's a LIE.
Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
You're fine up to here. Then you run clean off the mental rails.
Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
That's not a 'fact'. That's your racist delusions.
For whatever reason, you've dismissed the date of completion (with the launch date of Apollo 16) as a racist delusion. Clearly hard facts here.
Nope. I'm dismissing the idea that "Hey, that looks just like a
mountain where I grew up so let's call it that" is racist. Geography
is not racist.
You are now talking about the question of whether John Young was an actual racist.
I have never seen that in him myself. Nor have I ever heard any story about him that would cause me to think that might be the case. I would agree that it might be possible that he was racist, at some point in time during his life. And if I were to learn of any evidence that he was, it would not be all that surprising, considering the place (and time) where he was raised.
In article <la5k6dlsti5h8bleup85n5sst5r50hl6si@4ax.com>,<snip>
fjmccall@gmail.com says...
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
You're fine up to here. Then you run clean off the mental rails.
Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
That's not a 'fact'. That's your racist delusions.
For whatever reason, you've dismissed the date of completion (with the launch date of Apollo 16) as a racist delusion. Clearly hard facts here.
Nope. I'm dismissing the idea that "Hey, that looks just like a
mountain where I grew up so let's call it that" is racist. Geography
is not racist.
I agree with Fred. You're the one making these claims. If you had
sworn testimony from other NASA astronauts (John Young flew STS-1, so
he'd have been around astronaut class(es) which were far more diverse
than the ex-military pilot and test pilot dominated astronaut classes of Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. But you don't have that, do you? You have
a photoshopped picture and some "Beautiful Mind" style "connect the dots logic" instead.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You have failed to provide such evidence. Therefore you have not proven your claim.
I wrote:
<snip>
You are now talking about the question of whether John Young was an actual >> racist.
I have never seen that in him myself. Nor have I ever heard any story about >> him that would cause me to think that might be the case. I would agree that >> it might be possible that he was racist, at some point in time during his
life. And if I were to learn of any evidence that he was, it would not be >> all that surprising, considering the place (and time) where he was raised.
I should check myself on that statement.
Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
I should check myself on that statement.
Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
I should check myself on that statement.
Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk] https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
In article <f66c7c3f-2129-4890-bbaa-67c8f9635752@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
I should check myself on that statement.
Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk] https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
That's not how this works. If I search for "KKK" sure I'll find white
hoods. But, you're the one asserting "KKK", so why include it in the
search?
If I Google Image Search "Stone Mountain" there is one, and only one,
picture containing white hoods. But, there is also a picture of people
from Stone Mountain, Georgia Chapter of Jack and Jill, Inc. Judging by
that picture, I'm going to hazard a guess that not a single person in
that picture is a member of the "KKK"
Again, your assertion is baseless. Sometimes a mountain is just a
mountain.
From Jeff Findley:
In article <f66c7c3f-2129-4890-bbaa-67c8f9635752@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
I should check myself on that statement.
Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk] https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
That's not how this works. If I search for "KKK" sure I'll find white hoods. But, you're the one asserting "KKK", so why include it in the search?
Fred was the one asserting unicorns. So I decided to provide pics.
Pointy hoods leave open the mystery of what might be underneath.
Could be a unicorn. Might also be Clayton Bigsby.
If I Google Image Search "Stone Mountain" there is one, and only one, picture containing white hoods. But, there is also a picture of people from Stone Mountain, Georgia Chapter of Jack and Jill, Inc. Judging by that picture, I'm going to hazard a guess that not a single person in
that picture is a member of the "KKK"
Again, your assertion is baseless. Sometimes a mountain is just a mountain.
And sometimes a racist mountain is just a racist mountain.
KKK rallies have been held at Stone Mountain from 1915 through 2016.
That's a legacy that spans more than 100 years.
Here is a quote from "Negro actress" Nicole Beharie:
------------
Stone Mountain, Georgia, still had Ku Klux Klan marches, and I had a wild and courageous mother who'd put us in the car to watch them. She wanted us to know
those things existed.
------------
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/972878
Nicole was **BORN** in 1985. Her mother's lessons were quite fitting for the
In article <1e939bea-a6b3-4aa5-abda-2cfcfb0cd8d4@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
From Jeff Findley:
In article <f66c7c3f-2129-4890-bbaa-67c8f9635752@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
I should check myself on that statement.
Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk] https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
That's not how this works. If I search for "KKK" sure I'll find white hoods. But, you're the one asserting "KKK", so why include it in the search?
Fred was the one asserting unicorns. So I decided to provide pics.
Pointy hoods leave open the mystery of what might be underneath.
Could be a unicorn. Might also be Clayton Bigsby.
It's pretty much right there in your "Subject" line.
If I Google Image Search "Stone Mountain" there is one, and only one, picture containing white hoods. But, there is also a picture of people from Stone Mountain, Georgia Chapter of Jack and Jill, Inc. Judging by that picture, I'm going to hazard a guess that not a single person in that picture is a member of the "KKK"
Again, your assertion is baseless. Sometimes a mountain is just a mountain.
And sometimes a racist mountain is just a racist mountain.
Mountains aren't racist. People are.
KKK rallies have been held at Stone Mountain from 1915 through 2016.
That's a legacy that spans more than 100 years.
Here is a quote from "Negro actress" Nicole Beharie:
------------
Stone Mountain, Georgia, still had Ku Klux Klan marches, and I had a wild and
courageous mother who'd put us in the car to watch them. She wanted us to know
those things existed.
------------
http://www.azquotes.com/quote/972878
Nicole was **BORN** in 1985. Her mother's lessons were quite fitting for the
I'm not discounting any of the above. Again, it was your original
assertion in the subject line that John Young was a racist or racist sympathizer.
Today, in 2018, is it possible that a tribute like that could happen without a
HUGE backlash?
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
I should check myself on that statement.
Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk] >https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
From Jeff Findley:
In article <f66c7c3f-2129-4890-bbaa-67c8f9635752@googlegroups.com>,
tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
I should check myself on that statement.
Naming that most prominent feature at the Descartes Highlands *is* evidence that John Young might have been racist.
It's also equally strong evidence that he might have been a unicorn.
Here is a Google Image Search on ["stone Mountain" kkk]
https://www.google.com/search?biw=1536&bih=784&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=NBhuWvGLLsvcjwSkwKPYBw&q=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk&oq=%22stone+mountain%22+kkk
I am open to the possibility that some, if not all, of those pointy white hoods are unicorns in disguise.
That's not how this works. If I search for "KKK" sure I'll find white
hoods. But, you're the one asserting "KKK", so why include it in the
search?
Fred was the one asserting unicorns. So I decided to provide pics.
Pointy hoods leave open the mystery of what might be underneath.
Could be a unicorn. Might also be Clayton Bigsby.
If I Google Image Search "Stone Mountain" there is one, and only one,
picture containing white hoods. But, there is also a picture of people
from Stone Mountain, Georgia Chapter of Jack and Jill, Inc. Judging by
that picture, I'm going to hazard a guess that not a single person in
that picture is a member of the "KKK"
Again, your assertion is baseless. Sometimes a mountain is just a
mountain.
And sometimes a racist mountain is just a racist mountain.
KKK rallies have been held at Stone Mountain from 1915 through 2016.
That's a legacy that spans more than 100 years.
From Jeff Findley:
Mountains aren't racist. People are.
I agree.
In article <00a68b71-92e2-4cbd-b5ca-80994f4c0894@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
Today, in 2018, is it possible that a tribute like that could happen without a
HUGE backlash?
2018 isn't the late 60's to early 70's. I'm as old as the difference in time. It's coming up on half a damn century. I declare this thread as done. There is no more point to it due to the more than two generation
gap between then and now.
From Jeff Findley:particular from this past October. For anyone who might still be interested:
In article <00a68b71-92e2-4cbd-b5ca-80994f4c0894@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
Today, in 2018, is it possible that a tribute like that could happen without a
HUGE backlash?
2018 isn't the late 60's to early 70's. I'm as old as the difference in time. It's coming up on half a damn century. I declare this thread as done. There is no more point to it due to the more than two generation gap between then and now.
If you have nothing more to add to this thread, I am fine with that. I too might have been through with having thoroughly expressed my position. But tonight I happened across a brilliant John Oliver piece on the Confederacy and Stone Mountain in
Confederacy: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5b_-TZwQ0I&t=14m10sa very hot topic that has recently made front page news.
Quote:
------------
...the largest Confederate memorial, the carving on Stone Mountain in Georgia, is located where the 20th century KKK was born. ...it was completed in 1972.
------------
If Oliver knew space history, then it is easy to picture him having a field day with the irony of what Young, Duke & NASA did with their tribute way up on the Moon right on the heels of this ceremony done down on Planet Earth.
Clearly Stone Mountain is not an issue that belongs just to people from generations ago. The debate is happening right now. The issue of racism and how to handle the legacy of hundreds of years of slavery, and how it all pertains to Stone Mountain is
The purpose of this thread has been to highlight the curiosity of how everyone has been ignoring how John Young fits into that story.protest. And people like John Oliver would be leading that charge in shedding light on how misguided such an effort would be.
It is easy to imagine that, in the wake of his death, many people will be wanting to put up statues to commemorate him. And it is just as easy to imagine that if any such memorial were to include Stone Mountain behind John Young, it would spur a HUGE
If anyone were to attempt a rebuttal that "There is no more point to it due to..." whatever, it would quickly be shown to them just how relevant this issue is today. Still, in 2018.
~ CT
On Saturday, February 10, 2018 at 8:14:21 AM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:<snip>
<snip>But tonight I happened across a brilliant John Oliver piece on the Confederacy and Stone Mountain in particular from this past October. For anyone who might still be interested:
Confederacy: Last Week Tonight with John Oliver https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5b_-TZwQ0I&t=14m10s
Quote:
------------
...the largest Confederate memorial, the carving on Stone Mountain in Georgia, is located where the 20th century KKK was born. ...it was completed in 1972.
------------
If Oliver knew space history, then it is easy to picture him having a field day with the irony of what Young, Duke & NASA did with their tribute way up on the Moon right on the heels of this ceremony done down on Planet Earth.
Your opinion is just that. Yours alone.
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
This post, which is total bullshit,
is why I elected to quit using the usenet years ago. I dropped by
today to see if it is still full of bullshit, and it still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in this free for all unmoderated
group.
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But
this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John
Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an
important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that
followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised
a
flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get
input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue
that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in
past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised
that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important
enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this
aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was
alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to
attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
This post, which is total bullshit, is why I elected to quit using the
usenet years ago. I dropped by today to see if it is still full of
bullshit, and it still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in >this free for all unmoderated group.
"Matthew Ota" wrote in message news:5384a465-f4ca-47fd-ba1a-bba785ad1a99@googlegroups.com...
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But >> this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John
Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an
important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that
followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised >> a
flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were >> alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get
input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue >> that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in >> past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised
that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important
enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this
aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was
alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to
attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
This post, which is total bullshit, is why I elected to quit using the >usenet years ago. I dropped by today to see if it is still full of >bullshit, and it still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in >this free for all unmoderated group.
I hear where you're coming from. On the other hand, simply joining the
group and participating you'd make a significant increase in the S/N ratio!
Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated groups available.
--
Greg D. Moore http://greenmountainsoftware.wordpress.com/ CEO QuiCR: Quick, Crowdsourced Responses. http://www.quicr.net
IT Disaster Response - https://www.amazon.com/Disaster-Response-Lessons-Learned-Field/dp/1484221834/
Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated groups >available.
"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
7 May 2018 06:39:38 -0400:
Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated groups >>available.
I quit reading those because it seems like they're just autogenerated >summaries and new postings never go through.
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
This post, which is total bullshit, is why I elected to quit using the usenet
years ago. I dropped by today to see if it is still full of bullshit, and it still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in this free for all unmoderated group.
From Matthew Ota:
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
This post, which is total bullshit, is why I elected to quit using the usenet
years ago. I dropped by today to see if it is still full of bullshit, and it
still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in this free for all unmoderated group.
I understand how fans of NASA will have a stiff resistance to one of their heroes being called into question.
Today there may be no one here who wants to acknowledge that Apollo 16's Stone Mountain has racist aspects. Many issues come with huge "psychological inertia" where it takes a lot of time for people to get beyond their personal biases before there isany hope of examining an issue with any semblance of objectivity.
Take, for instance, Cosby. That one took well over a decade for American society to get around the Huxtable facade.
Now that might not be a great example to inject here. No one is accusing John Young of having been a serial rapist. The fact being highlighted is his mission choosing to name its most prominent landmark after a mountain that has a history steeped inracism.
It was 1972. America was nowhere near as sensitive to these kinds of issues back then as they are today in the post-Charlottesville world. And we're talking about a crew that has roots in the Deep South.jetski, signaling the ship captain that it is headed straight for an iceberg.
This is hardly surprising.
...yet the intense push-back here is quite understandable. Heroes are to be worshipped. Not criticized. Getting anyone to acknowledge the lunar Stone Mountain as having racist aspects is like turning an crude-laden supertanker turned around with a
In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990-be2d-6a6ec2da4121@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...is any hope of examining an issue with any semblance of objectivity.
From Matthew Ota:
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
This post, which is total bullshit, is why I elected to quit using the usenet
years ago. I dropped by today to see if it is still full of bullshit, and it
still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in this free for all
unmoderated group.
I understand how fans of NASA will have a stiff resistance to one of their heroes being called into question.
Outside of yourself, I really don't see anyone "calling into question"
John Young. Seriously, a Google search just finds this lonesome thread.
Today there may be no one here who wants to acknowledge that Apollo 16's Stone Mountain has racist aspects. Many issues come with huge "psychological inertia" where it takes a lot of time for people to get beyond their personal biases before there
Take, for instance, Cosby. That one took well over a decade for American society to get around the Huxtable facade.
in racism.Now that might not be a great example to inject here. No one is accusing John Young of having been a serial rapist. The fact being highlighted is his mission choosing to name its most prominent landmark after a mountain that has a history steeped
jetski, signaling the ship captain that it is headed straight for an iceberg.It was 1972. America was nowhere near as sensitive to these kinds of issues back then as they are today in the post-Charlottesville world. And we're talking about a crew that has roots in the Deep South.
This is hardly surprising.
...yet the intense push-back here is quite understandable. Heroes are to be worshipped. Not criticized. Getting anyone to acknowledge the lunar Stone Mountain as having racist aspects is like turning an crude-laden supertanker turned around with a
No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I
know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of
those.
Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed miserably to clear that bar.
Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990-be2d-6a6ec2da4121@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...<snip>
No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I
know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of
those.
Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed miserably to clear that bar.
From Jeff Findley:
In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990-be2d-6a6ec2da4121@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...<snip>
No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I
know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of
those.
Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed miserably to clear that bar.
It was not a claim. This thread has highlighted objective fact:
- Stone Mountain in Georgia is entrenched with racist legacy.
- The Apollo 16 crew decided to name their landing site's most prominent feature after this place with this racist legacy.
Beyond these two obvious facts, I elaborated with some opinion. You are free to reject any and all of that opinion. You're even free to reject any and all of the objective fact.these facts:
A point made early on in this thread was how the year 2017 included many people across America gaining awareness about blatant racism that has long gone overlooked.
2017 will also be known as the year that Gaslighting came under prominent attention. This thread has gotten infused with all kinds of gaslighting. You all can deny objective fact as repeatedly and as vehemently as you want. It will never change
- Stone Mountain is racist.
- Apollo 16 honored Stone Mountain.
No one may care about those facts today, even in the wake of what happened in 2017. But there will be someone, someday who will find this thread. And they will care that someone cared.
John Young is dead. Duke & Mattingly are still alive. Time is very short for anyone who cares to get direct answers on this issue from the people who made these decisions.
...and that's plural because I include "Casper" as part of this.
~ CT
I wrote:
From Jeff Findley:
In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990-be2d-6a6ec2da4121@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...<snip>
No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of those.
Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed miserably to clear that bar.
It was not a claim. This thread has highlighted objective fact:
- Stone Mountain in Georgia is entrenched with racist legacy.
- The Apollo 16 crew decided to name their landing site's most prominent feature after this place with this racist legacy.
these facts:Beyond these two obvious facts, I elaborated with some opinion. You are free to reject any and all of that opinion. You're even free to reject any and all of the objective fact.
A point made early on in this thread was how the year 2017 included many people across America gaining awareness about blatant racism that has long gone overlooked.
2017 will also be known as the year that Gaslighting came under prominent attention. This thread has gotten infused with all kinds of gaslighting. You all can deny objective fact as repeatedly and as vehemently as you want. It will never change
- Stone Mountain is racist.
- Apollo 16 honored Stone Mountain.
Here is a set of objective facts that had been highlighted early on in this thread, several months ago:
===============================
Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain in Georgia.
Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate, in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
===============================
These simple facts receive the response:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
This is what is known as burying one's head in the sand.
"If I just ignore these facts, they will go away."
~ CT
No one may care about those facts today, even in the wake of what happened in 2017. But there will be someone, someday who will find this thread. And they will care that someone cared.
John Young is dead. Duke & Mattingly are still alive. Time is very short for anyone who cares to get direct answers on this issue from the people who made these decisions.
...and that's plural because I include "Casper" as part of this.
~ CT
On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 at 6:12:35 AM UTC-4, Stuf4 wrote:<snip>
I wrote:
2017 will also be known as the year that Gaslighting came under prominent
attention. This thread has gotten infused with all kinds of gaslighting. You all can deny objective fact as repeatedly and as vehemently as you want. It will never change these facts:
- Stone Mountain is racist.
- Apollo 16 honored Stone Mountain.
Here is a set of objective facts that had been highlighted early on in this
thread, several months ago:
===============================
Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain
in Georgia.
Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and went to college.
Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate,
in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
===============================
These simple facts receive the response:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
This is what is known as burying one's head in the sand.
"If I just ignore these facts, they will go away."
You are the only person in this group making the claims. Ever hear of the phrase "pissing into the wind"?
From Dean Markley:
On Wednesday, May 16, 2018 at 6:12:35 AM UTC-4, Stuf4 wrote:<snip>
I wrote:
2017 will also be known as the year that Gaslighting came under prominent
attention. This thread has gotten infused with all kinds of gaslighting. You all can deny objective fact as repeatedly and as vehemently as you want. It will never change these facts:
- Stone Mountain is racist.
- Apollo 16 honored Stone Mountain.
Here is a set of objective facts that had been highlighted early on in this
thread, several months ago:
===============================
Fact: "Stone Mountain" in the Descartes Highlands resembles Stone Mountain
in Georgia.
Fact: Stone Mountain in Georgia is the area where John Young grew up and
went to college.
Fact: The Confederate Memorial was completed on March 3, 1972, the month
prior to the Apollo 16 mission.
Fact: John Young's decision to pick this name homage was quite deliberate,
in spite of the fact that this monument had been heavily criticized as being a racist hotspot. A racist capital even ...by people like Martin Luther King.
===============================
These simple facts receive the response:
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
This is what is known as burying one's head in the sand.
"If I just ignore these facts, they will go away."
You are the only person in this group making the claims. Ever hear of the phrase "pissing into the wind"?
Hard facts have been highlighted. No one disputes the fact that John Young grew up and went to college several miles from Stone Mountain. And it is an indisputable objective fact that Stone Mountain has a legacy entrenched in racism.
I am not merely the only person in this group who has highlighted these facts. As far as I'm aware, there is no one else on the planet who has taken note of this connection.
The extent that anyone else has done, from what I've seen, is to note that John Young has this personal connection to this Georgia landmark, and that's why he and his crew honored Stone Mountain at their lunar landing site.
It is not a "claim" that Stone Mountain has strong ties to racism. This is well established fact.
So for me to point out that Young & co deliberately brought that legacy up to the Moon does not constitute a claim. It is simple fact.
The question that remains open, as reflected in the original thread title chosen, was whether or not the intention to bring the racist aspects of that were part of the reason.
...and I have clearly stated my opinion on that early on in this thread. I said that I do not believe that John Young was racist. If he was, I never saw that side of him in any of my interactions with the man.
So for me to conclude that at the very least, he was racially insensitive... ...that too is not a claim. It is a simple logical result that falls straight out from the objective facts.
The title of this thread is:
"John Young: Racist? Racist Sympathizer?"
I have shared my opinion. I don't think he was a racist. And I have not seen evidence strong enough to support that he was a racist sympathizer.
I could be mistaken on both of those counts. But on the conclusion that at minimum he was lacking sensitivity, I see that to be an unavoidable fact.
I totally understand how me putting so much effort into highlighting these plain facts can be taken to be "pissing into the wind". That's been attributed to this observation that no one, here in 2018, cares to connect these obvious facts. Everyonewho has piped in to date has shown their desire to bury their heads in the sand.
Look how long it took for anyone to care about Bill Cosby. All of these women were "pissing into the wind", right up to that singular point in history where something flipped. People woke up to reality.the obvious implications that its launch delivered.)
I cringe at once again raising Cosby as an example of how attitudes can change 180 degrees. His is an extreme case with little to do with the space program.
But it is a dramatic, timely, example of how facts can remain the same, yet the tides of people's attitudes shift radically.
This is a key aspect to history that most people ignore. It is the psychology of history. What facts we're willing to examine, versus what facts we prefer to ignore.
There are MANY MANY facts about Space History that most people prefer to ignore. This one thing about Stone Mountain is just one such example.
Throughout my decades here on this forum, there have been plenty of other examples. Simple facts that get vehemently rejected. (One that stands out is how Mary Shafer Iliff vehemently rejected the fact that Americans were terrified by Sputnik, and
~ CT
I believe it has been pointed out more than once that this topic does not belong in this group. It's also been pointed out that you keep bringing it up. I haven't seen anyone else here agree with your rather long-winded statements. So here's a clue: Just drop it.
From Dean Markley:commented in that timespan. And who was one of them? You.
I believe it has been pointed out more than once that this topic does not belong in this group. It's also been pointed out that you keep bringing it
up. I haven't seen anyone else here agree with your rather long-winded statements. So here's a clue: Just drop it.
Your comment here makes for a classic case study in just how bizarro world this forum can be.
I am being faulted on how I "keep bringing it up."
Yet anyone can easily verify for themselves that this topic had laid dormant for 3 entire months, and I had absolutely no involvement in its resurgence this month. I waited til the end of the week before saying anything. There were 5 members who had
Gaslight strategy: Take the plain facts as anyone can readily see. Spin it 180 degrees out, and then present that as fact.
Here's a clue for you...
I had already dropped it.
Now let's take a look at this notion that "this topic does not belong in this group."space history?!
I have highlighted the name chosen by the Apollo 16 crew for this prominent feature at their landing site at the Descartes Highlands. How in any way shape or form is the Apollo 16 landing site mountain name not considered to be a topic relevant to
A comment like that goes way beyond gaslighting.8772.0.9057.12.12.0.0.0.0.85.630.10.10.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.0.0....0.FY4Z6N6lsIk
For anyone who would like to return to a grasp of accurate facts, here is a googling of "stone mountain" "apollo 16" restricted only to nasa.gov:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=fflb&ei=_a_8WsD5O5K0sQXKzYjgBg&q=site%3Anasa.gov+%22stone+mountain%22+%22apollo+16%22&oq=site%3Anasa.gov+%22stone+mountain%22+%22apollo+16%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3...6125.
That search returns 250 results.
So it would appear that someone at NASA seems to feel that Stone Mountain is a topic relevant to space history. Even if you don't.
And here's another clue...
If there is any topic you are not interested in seeing here, you have the ability to not click on it. Let alone not comment on it.
But I take your post as further confirmation that this is the real problem that everyone has here. Me highlighting these simple facts has been taken as a threat to the hero worship of these astronauts.
No one wants to think of John Young as possibly having been racist. Even I have said that I don't think he was. So what to do with info that points to the possibility that maybe he was?
Obvious solution: Shoot the messenger.
~ CT
From Jeff Findley:
In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990-be2d-6a6ec2da4121@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...<snip>
No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I
know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of
those.
Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed miserably to clear that bar.
It was not a claim. This thread has highlighted objective fact:
- Stone Mountain in Georgia is entrenched with racist legacy.
- The Apollo 16 crew decided to name their landing site's most prominent feature after this place with this racist legacy.
In article <36aa8dbf-696f-4614-98ac-2ab1844f195a@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
From Jeff Findley:
In article <18c4268f-dee4-4990-be2d-6a6ec2da4121@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...<snip>
No, there is "push-back" because you're the only effing person that I know of to make this accusation. I've met a lot of nutters in my life who've made claims that are complete b.s. This smells like one of those.
Look, just because one person makes a dubious claim without any real evidence it doesn't mean that others have to accept that claim.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've failed miserably to clear that bar.
It was not a claim. This thread has highlighted objective fact:
- Stone Mountain in Georgia is entrenched with racist legacy.
- The Apollo 16 crew decided to name their landing site's most prominent feature after this place with this racist legacy.
I see you really ought to take a logic and reasoning class. What you believe to be a fact is not.
The fact is that they named a feature of their landing site after a geological feature in a Georgia park. At the time, the park that
contains it had been owned by the state of Georgia for more than a
decade (another fact).
Anything beyond that is speculation! Which means your assertion that
there was some sort of racist intent in choosing the name is just that,
an assertion. You're the only one making this assertion. Absent any
actual evidence to support this (e.g. testimony of witnesses who saw
actual racist behavior or heard actual racist speech), it remains an assertion, *not* a fact.
So why don't you drop it? Again, a Google search on the topic shows
that you're the only one on the entire damn planet making this claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which you don't
have.
Jeff
Why don't I drop it? That question has already been answered. I did.
So the proper question here might be, "Why do I persist in responding to these continued objections?"
...and the answer to that is that there are obvious holes in the logic being used in these rebuttals. And I refuse to be gaslighted.
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message >news:7ro0fddmb4r4nhn7derb617fb8sruk8hja@4ax.com...
"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
7 May 2018 06:39:38 -0400:
Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated groups >>>available.
I quit reading those because it seems like they're just autogenerated >>summaries and new postings never go through.
Umm, that's not true. I can guarantee on-topic, non-combative posts go >through.
If you've tried posting and don't see it appear, the problem is with your >host.
From Matthew Ota:
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were >> > alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
This post, which is total bullshit, is why I elected to quit using the usenet
years ago. I dropped by today to see if it is still full of bullshit, and it >> still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in this free for all >> unmoderated group.
I understand how fans of NASA will have a stiff resistance to one of their heroes being called into question.
In article <44098994-4e8d-4344-b0ce-52e401c1f821@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
Why don't I drop it? That question has already been answered. I did.
So the proper question here might be, "Why do I persist in responding to these continued objections?"
...and the answer to that is that there are obvious holes in the logic being used in these rebuttals. And I refuse to be gaslighted.
Bullshit. You're not being "gaslighted". I don't know why, but you are continuing to stir the pot despite any actual evidence. Space
historians don't say "there are questions to be asked" and then sit on
their asses and do nothing. You're no space historian.
You've earned your place in my killfile. I'm getting older and my
tolerance for bullshit is getting smaller.
Maybe I'll let you out of the killfile after a period of time. Maybe.
Plonk!
Jeff
--
All opinions posted by me on Usenet News are mine, and mine alone.
These posts do not reflect the opinions of my family, friends,
employer, or any organization that I am a member of.
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote on Thu, 10 May 2018
22:11:32 -0700 (PDT):
From Matthew Ota:
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
This post, which is total bullshit, is why I elected to quit using the usenet
years ago. I dropped by today to see if it is still full of bullshit, and it
still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in this free for all
unmoderated group.
I understand how fans of NASA will have a stiff resistance to one of their heroes being called into question.
Do you understand that you are a clueless idiot?
It's not hard for me to imagine at all. Remember, someone once got
punched in the nose for telling Neil Armstrong that the Moon landings
were fake.
<snip remaining idiocy>
From Fred J. McCall:
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote on Thu, 10 May 2018
22:11:32 -0700 (PDT):
From Matthew Ota:
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 1:11:19 PM UTC-8, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed
throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a
flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were
alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that
this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
This post, which is total bullshit, is why I elected to quit using the usenet
years ago. I dropped by today to see if it is still full of bullshit, and it
still is... every crackpot out there can post nonsense in this free for all
unmoderated group.
I understand how fans of NASA will have a stiff resistance to one of their heroes being called into question.
Do you understand that you are a clueless idiot?
What is clear is that this forum is an abusive cesspool.
The antithesis of "science".
Say that while John Young was alive, he was giving a public talk and was asked the question:the Moon?"
"On your Apollo 16 mission, you applied the name Stone Mountain at your landing site. Given the attention that Stone Mountain in Georgia has been given in recent years, do you have any second thoughts about this mountain's legacy being transported to
Of course, we will never know how he would have responded.
(Unless someone did ask him about this.)
...but I would like to think that he would have given a much more thoughtful response than how folks here on this forum have responded. It's hard for me to imagine John Young saying...
"You're a clueless idiot for asking that question."
In article <sgmkhdluij3b467clkntin8e1i8fcrervg@4ax.com>,
fjmccall@gmail.com says...
It's not hard for me to imagine at all. Remember, someone once got
punched in the nose for telling Neil Armstrong that the Moon landings
were fake.
<snip remaining idiocy>
Actually it was Buzz Aldrin. Cite:
Jeff Findley <jfindley@cinci.nospam.rr.com> wrote on Fri, 8 Jun 2018
06:56:13 -0400:
In article <sgmkhdluij3b467clkntin8e1i8fcrervg@4ax.com>,
fjmccall@gmail.com says...
It's not hard for me to imagine at all. Remember, someone once got
punched in the nose for telling Neil Armstrong that the Moon landings
were fake.
<snip remaining idiocy>
Actually it was Buzz Aldrin. Cite:
Sorry. I knew I wasn't sure about who did it without looking it up. I probably should have just avoided giving a name.
"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
7 May 2018 23:32:27 -0400:
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message >>news:7ro0fddmb4r4nhn7derb617fb8sruk8hja@4ax.com...
"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
7 May 2018 06:39:38 -0400:
Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated >>>>groups
available.
I quit reading those because it seems like they're just autogenerated >>>summaries and new postings never go through.
Umm, that's not true. I can guarantee on-topic, non-combative posts go >>through.
No, they don't. They used to, but they don't any longer.
If you've tried posting and don't see it appear, the problem is with your >>host.
My host hasn't changed in ages. It used to work. The behavior of
these groups has changed. The conclusion seems obvious...
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message >news:do1jhd1prk5qi09u7hp9fpgfrhc7ldlnme@4ax.com...
"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon,
7 May 2018 23:32:27 -0400:
"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message >>>news:7ro0fddmb4r4nhn7derb617fb8sruk8hja@4ax.com...
"Greg \(Strider\) Moore" <mooregr@deletethisgreenms.com> wrote on Mon, >>>>7 May 2018 06:39:38 -0400:
Also, there are the sci.space.tech and sci.space.science moderated >>>>>groups
available.
I quit reading those because it seems like they're just autogenerated >>>>summaries and new postings never go through.
Umm, that's not true. I can guarantee on-topic, non-combative posts go >>>through.
No, they don't. They used to, but they don't any longer.
Umm, yes, they do. If they get to the moderator and they're on-topic and >non-abusive, they will be approved.
If you've tried posting and don't see it appear, the problem is with your >>>host.
My host hasn't changed in ages. It used to work. The behavior of
these groups has changed. The conclusion seems obvious...
The only real change has been the addition of the automatic feeds.
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 4:11:19 PM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:
John Young is no longer around to give us his answers to this issue. But this
was a HOT topic in 2017. I never saw anyone raise this regarding John Young in
particular, and NASA on the broader issue. But I see this to be an important aspect that ties straight in to space history.
No one asked the question. But I am doing it now.
With the popularity of Hidden Figures on top of the craziness that followed throughout the rest of 2017, you'd think that *someone* would have raised a flag on this.
John Young, you were not called out on the issue of racism while you were alive. I'm doing it now after your death. It would be great to get input from
surviving family members and former crewmates. This is a critical issue that
this country has been wrestling with for centuries, and came to a head in past
months. NASA got a bye. John Young got a bye. I was quite surprised that this happened. Everyone just ignored it. But to me, this is important enough
for the new NASA Administrator to weigh in on here.
Was John Young racist?
And if so, what action will NASA take in 2018 to make amends for this aspect of
his legacy that he left behind? If it wasn't discussed while he was alive, I
doubt this issue will be raised at his memorial. I was not planning to attend
myself, as much as I'd like to be there.
~ CT
Balderdash!
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