Today we are at the 51st anniversary of the Apollo 1 tragedy. Today, a year after presenting this to this forum, I will explain how Debbie Reynolds is connected to this whole mess. And now, in 2018, we also have the death of John Young, as thisDebbie Reynolds connection directly impacted him as well.
Yes, Debbie Reynolds' connection was through her role as Molly Brown in the 1964 movie where she got an Oscar nomination. Gus Grissom caught hell with his Mercury capsule sinking, and so on the first Gemini, which he flew with John Young, he picked 'Molly Brown' as the nickname for their spacecraft.
The fundamental theme of this story is one of an oppressive environment of domination, and whether you will choose to submit to that domination, or instead assert the principles you hold, standing up to those who have power over you.
In article <f423f3c2-a884-4a7c-bde2-1fa4e3dc5959@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...Debbie Reynolds connection directly impacted him as well.
Today we are at the 51st anniversary of the Apollo 1 tragedy. Today, a year after presenting this to this forum, I will explain how Debbie Reynolds is connected to this whole mess. And now, in 2018, we also have the death of John Young, as this
Molly Brown' as the nickname for their spacecraft.Yes, Debbie Reynolds' connection was through her role as Molly Brown in the 1964 movie where she got an Oscar nomination. Gus Grissom caught hell with his Mercury capsule sinking, and so on the first Gemini, which he flew with John Young, he picked '
The fundamental theme of this story is one of an oppressive environment of domination, and whether you will choose to submit to that domination, or instead assert the principles you hold, standing up to those who have power over you.
Please quit posting this sort of hare brained conspiracy, Beautiful
Mind, bullshit.
From Jeff Findley:Debbie Reynolds connection directly impacted him as well.
In article <f423f3c2-a884-4a7c-bde2-1fa4e3dc5959@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
Today we are at the 51st anniversary of the Apollo 1 tragedy. Today, a year after presenting this to this forum, I will explain how Debbie Reynolds is connected to this whole mess. And now, in 2018, we also have the death of John Young, as this
picked 'Molly Brown' as the nickname for their spacecraft.Yes, Debbie Reynolds' connection was through her role as Molly Brown in the 1964 movie where she got an Oscar nomination. Gus Grissom caught hell with his Mercury capsule sinking, and so on the first Gemini, which he flew with John Young, he
The fundamental theme of this story is one of an oppressive environment of domination, and whether you will choose to submit to that domination, or instead assert the principles you hold, standing up to those who have power over you.
Please quit posting this sort of hare brained conspiracy, Beautiful
Mind, bullshit.
It was perfectly clear one year ago when I first posted about the importance of Debbie Reynolds to Space History that this forum is still a cesspool.
In article <e72eaf97-7bfe-43b2-b87b-b349df5b919b@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...Debbie Reynolds connection directly impacted him as well.
From Jeff Findley:
In article <f423f3c2-a884-4a7c-bde2-1fa4e3dc5959@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
Today we are at the 51st anniversary of the Apollo 1 tragedy. Today, a year after presenting this to this forum, I will explain how Debbie Reynolds is connected to this whole mess. And now, in 2018, we also have the death of John Young, as this
picked 'Molly Brown' as the nickname for their spacecraft.Yes, Debbie Reynolds' connection was through her role as Molly Brown in the 1964 movie where she got an Oscar nomination. Gus Grissom caught hell with his Mercury capsule sinking, and so on the first Gemini, which he flew with John Young, he
The fundamental theme of this story is one of an oppressive environment of domination, and whether you will choose to submit to that domination, or instead assert the principles you hold, standing up to those who have power over you.
Please quit posting this sort of hare brained conspiracy, Beautiful Mind, bullshit.
It was perfectly clear one year ago when I first posted about the importance of Debbie Reynolds to Space History that this forum is still a cesspool.
They didn't shape the space program one bit. The people in the space program made references to bits of American culture at the time, that's
all. Besides, this one you posted a year ago. Seems like yesterday to
me.
These cultural references are not historically significant from the
point of view of space history. Unless you're a plaque writer for
exhibits at the Smithsonian and you're trying to people interested in
the artifacts that don't care much about the actual hardware or accomplishments. That's not the readership here at all, so they're
actually borderline off topic, IMHO.
Today we are at the 51st anniversary of the Apollo 1 tragedy. Today, a year after presenting this to this forum, I will explain how Debbie Reynolds is connected to this whole mess. And now, in 2018, we also have the death of John Young, as thisDebbie Reynolds connection directly impacted him as well.
Yes, Debbie Reynolds' connection was through her role as Molly Brown in the 1964 movie where she got an Oscar nomination. Gus Grissom caught hell with his Mercury capsule sinking, and so on the first Gemini, which he flew with John Young, he picked 'Molly Brown' as the nickname for their spacecraft.
The fundamental theme of this story is one of an oppressive environment of domination, and whether you will choose to submit to that domination, or instead assert the principles you hold, standing up to those who have power over you.how LBJ was visiting Houston and wanted to do a PR meeting with John Glenn's wife Annie. Annie had her reasons for not wanting to meet with the VP. And her husband John fully supported her. That was a principled decision. LBJ was outraged.
How the Molly Brown Spirit applies to space history goes back to the Mercury Program. But not just Gus's flight, where the capsule sank. It applied even more to John Glenn and Deke Slayton who were in line behind Gus. There is the famous story of
The aftermath of that was that the astronaut corps was "taught a lesson" on who is boss. John Glenn did not get the immediate brunt of the backlash. He was too big a hero to America. The impact hit Deke Slayton. NASA wielded their power over CB bygrounding Deke ...for a totally bogus reason. Slayton was grounded for a heart condition that NASA had fully known about, and had passed him on his physical during the selection process. NASA used this as their excuse to take him out. But their
NASA established this terror environment within the Corps so that it was perfectly clear to all astronauts that they were not to step out of line. And the 1967 result of that was 3 dead astronauts. (There were other astronauts who would pay for thisfear-based NASA policy with their lives, but for starters here we will stay focused on the direct impact on Gus.)
On Gemini 3, Gus tested the waters of rebellion by choosing this controversial name 'Molly Brown'. NASA once again SLAMMED the astronaut corps. There was not to be any more spacecraft nicknames. No subsequent mission throughout the Gemini Programhad any spacecraft nickname. And this carried over into Apollo with Gus's first mission, and lasted through the first Moon mission. (With the policy only changing in 1969 out of necessity when two spacecraft were flying at the same time.) Gus's
Time and again, the message from NASA was clear: "You are just an astronaut. One small step above the monkeys that we fly in our capsules. You do as we tell you."beat down in Mercury, followed by the beat down in Gemini ...the Apollo 1 crew expressed their protest in a mere photo, praying that the capsule would not kill them:
By the time Apollo rolled around, it was clear to Gus that there were severe problems with the hardware at North American. Yet it had also been made clear to him where his place was in the program. So the level of protest by this stage, after the
https://vintagespace.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/a1prayer.jpgbe made before they would put their lives at risk inside these spacecraft that they could clearly see had severe design issues.
But prayers were not enough. That capsule DID kill them.
Another low-level protest was Gus's hanging of that lemon on the simulator. If the astronaut office had been fully empowered, and had been fully supported, then they would have taken action on this as part of their job to ensure that major fixes would
Gus, Ed & Roger died that day. 51 years ago.
But now try to imagine if the Molly Brown Spirit had thrived at NASA. The reason why Debbie Reynolds had gotten that role, and that Oscar nomination, was because she had so thoroughly captured the spirit of defiance in the face of oppressive forcesthat had overbearing power. Here she is in the movie trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk10MoMpMIA&t=27shardware changed for Apollo and the rest of that program was conducted safely.
"I might give out, but I won't give in!"
The Molly Brown Spirit can be encapsulated in one word: indomitable.
This is the same rebellious spirit that Debbie passed along to the next generation which led to her daughter Carrie Fisher becoming far more famous than she was. Princess Leia embodied this Molly Brown Spirit.
Here it helps to know the character of the person who Debbie Reynolds was portraying. Maggie Brown fought the system. She ran for the US Senate in 1914. This was 8 years *before* the ban on women voting was lifted.
History channel clip on "Molly" Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpekPaut0Cg&t=50s
The theme is doing what you know to be right, in spite of what the authorities above you might say.
You can also draw the connection of how Molly Brown got famous for her role with the Titanic, and how Grissom & Young's flight of the 'Molly Brown' happened at the top of a Titan'IC'BM booster.
By the time of Apollo, Gus was beaten down to the point where he knew he was powerless. I have had the thought that he also knew that he and his crew would need to be sacrificed in order for things to change. Well the sacrifice happened. And the
But his sacrifice was *not* enough to change the culture of oppression at NASA. The AS-204 Investigation, as with the Apollo 13 Review Board that followed it, were designed to prevent embarrassment for NASA. They did not have the primary goal offixing the culture that caused these mishaps to occur. George Low at the top of the NASA administration assigned his former college roommate to head the A13 Review Board. These "investigations" were shameless.
And so this fundamental problem returned to John Young to bite him once again, as he was the Chief of the Astronaut Office and it was under his watch that he lost another crew ...32 years ago tomorrow.though he had been assigned to his 7th flight, was pulled from that mission and he never flew again. (The command of his Hubble deployment mission was given instead to Loren Shriver.)
THAT was the time when John Young finally decided that he had had enough, and that he was going to openly speak his mind, knowing full well that it would cost him his career. He was highly critical of what had been going on. And John Young, even
So this is the significance that Debbie Reynolds as Molly Brown had to the NASA space program. It is the legacy of 17 dead astronauts, all avoidable, including the one who had named his capsule the Molly Brown.Hoot Gibson's command, just two flights in the wake of Challenger.
Last year I had stated that this topic could fill an entire book. And that is because this lack of "Molly Brown Spirit" is what led to Apollo 1, what led to Apollo 13, to STS-51L, and also to STS-107. One of the most stark examples of this is with
Hoot Gibson: "We are going to die." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BswkvaAaqSM&t=58sfor improvements. Instead of making safety their top priority, NASA squandered this money by approving things like the MEDS Glass Cockpit mod.
That was STS-27. Add *80* to that and you get STS-107. What did NASA do to address this severe problem over this span of a decade and a half? They killed off the mod to beef up the Wing Leading Edges (WLE-MMOD). Congress gave NASA plenty of money
And there were astronauts all along the way throughout those decades who consented to these horrible, tragic decisions that ultimately proved fatal. And the worst decision in regards to Shuttle was the one way back in the early 70s where astronautsagreed that it was ok to have a spacecraft that did not give them any hope of survival in the event of a failure at hypersonic speeds. It would have been easy to design the crew cabin pressure vessel as an escape pod that would give a crew in an
Molly Brown would not have gone along with such stupidity. She would have said...
"Turn this lifeboat around. We're going back to do this right!"
Gruesome-White-Chaffing.Sadly, it was not until more tragedies culminating in 2003 that those changes would finally happen across NASA.
That's the result you end up with when you fail to give due heed to the Molly Brown Spirit. Gus knew better. But I think he was willing to lay the lives of his crew on the line in hopes that this machine that was much bigger than him would change.
~ CT
On Saturday, January 27, 2018 at 9:55:02 PM UTC-5, Stuf4 wrote:Debbie Reynolds connection directly impacted him as well.
Today we are at the 51st anniversary of the Apollo 1 tragedy. Today, a year after presenting this to this forum, I will explain how Debbie Reynolds is connected to this whole mess. And now, in 2018, we also have the death of John Young, as this
Molly Brown' as the nickname for their spacecraft.Yes, Debbie Reynolds' connection was through her role as Molly Brown in the 1964 movie where she got an Oscar nomination. Gus Grissom caught hell with his Mercury capsule sinking, and so on the first Gemini, which he flew with John Young, he picked '
how LBJ was visiting Houston and wanted to do a PR meeting with John Glenn's wife Annie. Annie had her reasons for not wanting to meet with the VP. And her husband John fully supported her. That was a principled decision. LBJ was outraged.The fundamental theme of this story is one of an oppressive environment of domination, and whether you will choose to submit to that domination, or instead assert the principles you hold, standing up to those who have power over you.
How the Molly Brown Spirit applies to space history goes back to the Mercury Program. But not just Gus's flight, where the capsule sank. It applied even more to John Glenn and Deke Slayton who were in line behind Gus. There is the famous story of
by grounding Deke ...for a totally bogus reason. Slayton was grounded for a heart condition that NASA had fully known about, and had passed him on his physical during the selection process. NASA used this as their excuse to take him out. But theirThe aftermath of that was that the astronaut corps was "taught a lesson" on who is boss. John Glenn did not get the immediate brunt of the backlash. He was too big a hero to America. The impact hit Deke Slayton. NASA wielded their power over CB
this fear-based NASA policy with their lives, but for starters here we will stay focused on the direct impact on Gus.)NASA established this terror environment within the Corps so that it was perfectly clear to all astronauts that they were not to step out of line. And the 1967 result of that was 3 dead astronauts. (There were other astronauts who would pay for
had any spacecraft nickname. And this carried over into Apollo with Gus's first mission, and lasted through the first Moon mission. (With the policy only changing in 1969 out of necessity when two spacecraft were flying at the same time.) Gus'sOn Gemini 3, Gus tested the waters of rebellion by choosing this controversial name 'Molly Brown'. NASA once again SLAMMED the astronaut corps. There was not to be any more spacecraft nicknames. No subsequent mission throughout the Gemini Program
beat down in Mercury, followed by the beat down in Gemini ...the Apollo 1 crew expressed their protest in a mere photo, praying that the capsule would not kill them:Time and again, the message from NASA was clear: "You are just an astronaut. One small step above the monkeys that we fly in our capsules. You do as we tell you."
By the time Apollo rolled around, it was clear to Gus that there were severe problems with the hardware at North American. Yet it had also been made clear to him where his place was in the program. So the level of protest by this stage, after the
would be made before they would put their lives at risk inside these spacecraft that they could clearly see had severe design issues.https://vintagespace.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/a1prayer.jpg
But prayers were not enough. That capsule DID kill them.
Another low-level protest was Gus's hanging of that lemon on the simulator. If the astronaut office had been fully empowered, and had been fully supported, then they would have taken action on this as part of their job to ensure that major fixes
Gus, Ed & Roger died that day. 51 years ago.
that had overbearing power. Here she is in the movie trailer:But now try to imagine if the Molly Brown Spirit had thrived at NASA. The reason why Debbie Reynolds had gotten that role, and that Oscar nomination, was because she had so thoroughly captured the spirit of defiance in the face of oppressive forces
hardware changed for Apollo and the rest of that program was conducted safely.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk10MoMpMIA&t=27s
"I might give out, but I won't give in!"
The Molly Brown Spirit can be encapsulated in one word: indomitable.
This is the same rebellious spirit that Debbie passed along to the next generation which led to her daughter Carrie Fisher becoming far more famous than she was. Princess Leia embodied this Molly Brown Spirit.
Here it helps to know the character of the person who Debbie Reynolds was portraying. Maggie Brown fought the system. She ran for the US Senate in 1914. This was 8 years *before* the ban on women voting was lifted.
History channel clip on "Molly" Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpekPaut0Cg&t=50s
The theme is doing what you know to be right, in spite of what the authorities above you might say.
You can also draw the connection of how Molly Brown got famous for her role with the Titanic, and how Grissom & Young's flight of the 'Molly Brown' happened at the top of a Titan'IC'BM booster.
By the time of Apollo, Gus was beaten down to the point where he knew he was powerless. I have had the thought that he also knew that he and his crew would need to be sacrificed in order for things to change. Well the sacrifice happened. And the
fixing the culture that caused these mishaps to occur. George Low at the top of the NASA administration assigned his former college roommate to head the A13 Review Board. These "investigations" were shameless.But his sacrifice was *not* enough to change the culture of oppression at NASA. The AS-204 Investigation, as with the Apollo 13 Review Board that followed it, were designed to prevent embarrassment for NASA. They did not have the primary goal of
though he had been assigned to his 7th flight, was pulled from that mission and he never flew again. (The command of his Hubble deployment mission was given instead to Loren Shriver.)And so this fundamental problem returned to John Young to bite him once again, as he was the Chief of the Astronaut Office and it was under his watch that he lost another crew ...32 years ago tomorrow.
THAT was the time when John Young finally decided that he had had enough, and that he was going to openly speak his mind, knowing full well that it would cost him his career. He was highly critical of what had been going on. And John Young, even
Hoot Gibson's command, just two flights in the wake of Challenger.So this is the significance that Debbie Reynolds as Molly Brown had to the NASA space program. It is the legacy of 17 dead astronauts, all avoidable, including the one who had named his capsule the Molly Brown.
Last year I had stated that this topic could fill an entire book. And that is because this lack of "Molly Brown Spirit" is what led to Apollo 1, what led to Apollo 13, to STS-51L, and also to STS-107. One of the most stark examples of this is with
for improvements. Instead of making safety their top priority, NASA squandered this money by approving things like the MEDS Glass Cockpit mod.Hoot Gibson: "We are going to die." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BswkvaAaqSM&t=58s
That was STS-27. Add *80* to that and you get STS-107. What did NASA do to address this severe problem over this span of a decade and a half? They killed off the mod to beef up the Wing Leading Edges (WLE-MMOD). Congress gave NASA plenty of money
agreed that it was ok to have a spacecraft that did not give them any hope of survival in the event of a failure at hypersonic speeds. It would have been easy to design the crew cabin pressure vessel as an escape pod that would give a crew in anAnd there were astronauts all along the way throughout those decades who consented to these horrible, tragic decisions that ultimately proved fatal. And the worst decision in regards to Shuttle was the one way back in the early 70s where astronauts
Molly Brown would not have gone along with such stupidity. She would have said...
"Turn this lifeboat around. We're going back to do this right!"
Sadly, it was not until more tragedies culminating in 2003 that those changes would finally happen across NASA.Gruesome-White-Chaffing.
That's the result you end up with when you fail to give due heed to the Molly Brown Spirit. Gus knew better. But I think he was willing to lay the lives of his crew on the line in hopes that this machine that was much bigger than him would change.
Now you're just trolling. Stop it.
Sadly, it was not until more tragedies culminating in 2003 that those changes would finally happen across NASA.That's the result you end up with when you fail to give due heed to the Molly Brown Spirit. Gus knew better. But I think he was willing to lay the lives of his crew on the line in hopes that this machine that was much bigger than him would change.
Now you're just trolling. Stop it.
I don't see how anyone who reads the words I post can arrive at a conclusion that the themes I have persistently been highlighting lack sincerity.
I have been a regular contributing member of this forum since 2001, and there is not a single example of a theme that I have highlighted that lacks sincerity.
In article <577fd491-78c0-4aad-a91f-83d9031d6a60@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...change. Sadly, it was not until more tragedies culminating in 2003 that those changes would finally happen across NASA.
That's the result you end up with when you fail to give due heed to the Molly Brown Spirit. Gus knew better. But I think he was willing to lay the lives of his crew on the line in hopes that this machine that was much bigger than him would
You're taking footnotes in Space History and blowing them all out of proportion and coming to the wrong conclusions. We all know about the capsule Molly Brown and why it was named that way (after The Unsinkable Molly Brown). It was because Liberty Bell 7 sank and the controversy surrounding the sinking (some blamed Grissom).
NASA officially stopped naming Gemini capsules after the name Molly
Brown was chosen. They were kind of pissed.
The Debbie Reynolds "connection" is coincidence. It could have been any other actress and the capsule still would have been named Molly Brown because of "The Unsinkable" to poke a stick in NASA management's eye.
I'll even provide a cite, which you failed to do:
https://vintagespace.wordpress.com/2012/03/23/the-unsinkable-gusmobil/
From Jeff Findley:change. Sadly, it was not until more tragedies culminating in 2003 that those changes would finally happen across NASA.
In article <577fd491-78c0-4aad-a91f-83d9031d6a60@googlegroups.com>, tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com says...
That's the result you end up with when you fail to give due heed to the Molly Brown Spirit. Gus knew better. But I think he was willing to lay the lives of his crew on the line in hopes that this machine that was much bigger than him would
<snip>
You're taking footnotes in Space History and blowing them all out of proportion and coming to the wrong conclusions. We all know about the capsule Molly Brown and why it was named that way (after The Unsinkable Molly Brown). It was because Liberty Bell 7 sank and the controversy surrounding the sinking (some blamed Grissom).
JF 2017: "I personally have no idea what you're talking about."
I have lost count of the number of things I have presented here that have been reacted to with violent rejection.
I don't see how anyone who reads the words I post can arrive at a conclusion that the themes I have persistently been highlighting lack sincerity.
I have been a regular contributing member of this forum since 2001, and there is not a single example of a theme that I have highlighted that lacks sincerity.
Stuf4 <tdadamemd-spamblock-@excite.com> wrote:
I don't see how anyone who reads the words I post can arrive at a conclusion that the themes I have persistently been highlighting lack sincerity.
Because there are still people who cannont believe you can be the
loony racist ninny you manifestly are.
I have been a regular contributing member of this forum since 2001, and there is not a single example of a theme that I have highlighted that lacks sincerity.
You'd think that in that amount of time you'd have figured out that it
is not a 'forum'.
--
"Ordinarily he is insane. But he has lucid moments when he is
only stupid."
-- Heinrich Heine
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