On Wednesday, July 5, 2000 at 5:00:00 PM UTC+10, Rob Bossio wrote:

Hi. I've been reading your recent posts, and this one happens to move me
to reply
ame...@my-deja.com wrote:

After reading posts in this newsgroup, reading literature on problems facing science grads and talking to others who have been denied tenure
and the like, it's a wonder that many of you bother to struggle.

In the begining of setting out on getting a graduate degree in the
sciences, I think a lot of people suffer from the following:
1) Misinformation/disinformation/lack of information on what your
prospects are with a graduate degree
I know that when I set out from my undergrad, the prof's at school spoke glowingly of grad school. The way they and some of the phd's they'd invite for "grad school nights" spoke, there was little or no reason NOT to go
on. Better job prospects, more room for advancement, academic career is great, etc. I now know that they were seriously misinformed as to the glut
of phd's, they probably just figured that it was some temporary setback and once the economy picked up all would be well. I don't recall ANY of them saying anything truly negative about the process.
Myself, when I have talked to the undergrads here at FSU and try to
give them a more realistic picture of what its all about, often get told
I'm a doom sayer, I'm too negative, I'm bitter, etc. I'm often written off
by those who are bound and determined to go. So be it. But I make sure
none of them can say to me, "No one told me that!"
That's one of the great things this group does, esp. Art, Derrick and
Brian. They give great info. Nothing held back. I appreciate them
greatly for it. And with a post like yours, its likely to give those
lurkers who are curious the info they need. So this group really is quite
a community service.
2) Unrealistic expectations about grad school
I confess I had these myself, probably due to the point above. People
in undergrad need better mentors, ones that are more aware of what is
really going on, what the prospects are, etc. I think to some extent these unrealistic expectations are fostered in undergrads, point 1 again.

There
are people who go from university to university trying to get tenure
until they are completely ruined with no benifits, no career and no
future prospects.

One of the qualities of good scientists is tenacity. To do gels over and over, to run triplicate samples for good statistics, etc., you have to be tenacious. It's a quality that is raised to a near fault in scientists in undergrad/grad school. When your model of success in the sciences is to be like your advisor, and you want to be a success badly, this also leads to what you mention here. After all, who wants to be thought a failure? Plus, there's inertia and risk aversion which are pounded into people in school. And some just don't know when to quit, esp. when that coveted academic position may be just around the corner.

Then there are high school grads and some drop outs
who get jobs as bus drivers, street sweepers, truck drvers and
warehouse laborers with full benifits and become fully vested for retirement within ten years.

This is an uncertain path as well. My sister was working on getting vested
in the Alaskan school system. She pissed off the wrong person, and was blacklisted for a few years. She's only now recovering from the damage
stupid politics did to her career. I've said it before in other posts, nothing is certain with regards to your job. Stupid politiking can tank anyone, even the talented and hard working. And even at any level.

I remember seeing a news program a few
years ago where a forklift driver in Detroit saved up something like
200k and started a college scholarship fund. I remember him saying something to the effect that he wasn't very educated and hence wanted
to give others the opportunity to go to college.

Whenever I suggest to unemployed educated people to get a simple-minded
job which has benifits they tell me "I want to use my brain not my
hands". It takes brains to realize that something is not working out
and will not likely work out.

This is the inertia talking. Plus, it may also be learned helplessness,
the feeling that you can't do anything but this, and this alone will do, because that's what the system teaches you. but as we know, there are ways out if only you look for them. and do so in time.

Because prestige is more important to
some however, they will go on for years trying to bring law suits
against people and waste their mental energy complaining about the
things. I would much rather be like that forklift driver in detroit at
the end of my career rather than still struggling to find a suitable
job for the sake of prestige.

"Mine to me, its own to each is dear"
Afer Ventus
Enya

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
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