• It's not the same thing.

    From Richard Hachel@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 29 01:41:20 2024
    Jean-Pierre Messager alleging that the comparison of the reference frames
    of Bella and Stella between them,
    in the famous problem of the double traveler of Tau Ceti, it was the same
    thing (he considers that in the Terrence-Bella report, it is the same phenomenon that occurs as in the Stella-Bella report, because, he says , Terrence like Stella are in Galilean frames of reference, and that there
    is therefore the same phenomenon which links them.

    In short, he wants us to treat Stella the way we treat Terrence.

    I understand his grievances.

    But that's not how it works, and I have the worst difficulty convincing my sweetheart, formatted as he is in Minkowskian geometry, that he takes for
    the Phoenix of relativistic geometries.

    I'll explain to him how it works.

    In the first frame of reference, that of Terrence, the departure takes
    place in A and the arrival in B. But A and B are not spatially in the same place for the two participants.

    In the second, events A and B are in the same place for both speakers.

    It's not the same thing.

    Furthermore, I have said and repeated that if the start was not made at
    rest, the equality of clean times was no longer assured in Terrence's
    case.

    Now, the highlight of the show and the beauty of reasoning.

    The first diagram shows what happens between Terrence and his two sisters,
    and we can already see that the two sisters will have equal time.


    <http://news2.nemoweb.net/jntp?45YM3ho2qHlFfZEkhlnrNslahOY@jntp/Data.Media:1>


    The other shows what is happening between Bella and Stella (and vice
    versa) and the equality of proper tenses, as in the first diagram
    (otherwise it would be absurd).

    <http://news2.nemoweb.net/jntp?45YM3ho2qHlFfZEkhlnrNslahOY@jntp/Data.Media:2>

    Je vous remercie de votre attention.

    R.H.

    --
    Posted by Nemo : <http://news2.nemoweb.net/?DataID=45YM3ho2qHlFfZEkhlnrNslahOY@jntp>

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  • From Python@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 29 12:45:41 2024
    Le 29/04/2024 à 03:41, Richard Hachel a écrit :
    Jean-Pierre Messager alleging that the comparison of the reference
    frames of Bella and Stella between them,
    in the famous problem of the double traveler of Tau Ceti, it was the
    same thing (he considers that in the Terrence-Bella report, it is the
    same phenomenon that occurs as in the Stella-Bella report, because, he
    says , Terrence like Stella are in Galilean frames of reference, and
    that there is therefore the same phenomenon which links them.

    In short, he wants us to treat Stella the way we treat Terrence.

    I understand his grievances.

    No you don't. My point is not about comparing Terrence-Bella (i.e.
    Bella's trajectory in Terrence's frame) to Stella-Bella (i.e.
    Bella's trajectory in Stella's frame).

    I'll explain to him how it works.

    In the first frame of reference, that of Terrence, the departure takes
    place in A and the arrival in B. But A and B are not spatially in the
    same place for the two participants.

    In the second, events A and B are in the same place for both speakers.

    It's not the same thing.

    Furthermore, I have said and repeated that if the start was not made at
    rest, the equality of clean times was no longer assured in Terrence's case.

    Now, the highlight of the show and the beauty of reasoning.

    The first diagram shows what happens between Terrence and his two
    sisters, and we can already see that the two sisters will have equal time.


    <http://news2.nemoweb.net/jntp?45YM3ho2qHlFfZEkhlnrNslahOY@jntp/Data.Media:1>


    The other shows what is happening between Bella and Stella (and vice
    versa) and the equality of proper tenses, as in the first diagram
    (otherwise it would be absurd).

    <http://news2.nemoweb.net/jntp?45YM3ho2qHlFfZEkhlnrNslahOY@jntp/Data.Media:2>

    Je vous remercie de votre attention.

    Let me explain, again (sigh) my argument :

    Terrence is at rest in Earth frame.
    Stella is traveling to Tau Ceti at constant velocity [w.r.t Earth]
    Bella is traveling with constant acceleration to Tau Ceti,
    with a initial velocity of zero w.r.t Earth.
    Both leave Earth and arrive at Tau Ceti together.

    You claim is that Stella and Bella will record the same duration
    (proper times) for their journeys.

    Anyone who studied Relativity knows that this is false: proper
    duration along an inertial space-time path is always strictly
    longer than in any non-inertial path.

    But I don't even need to invoke SR to show you are contradicting
    yourself (and also the Principle of Relativity) :

    Consider Bella's trajectory in Stella's inertial frame of reference,
    Bella is leaving at a given non null speed, then decelerate gradually
    and travel back to Bella at increasing speed.

    Now consider another traveler, say Paula, who has, in Earth frame of
    reference, *exactly* the same kind of trajectory Bella has w.r.t
    Stella in the Tau Ceti previous scenario.

    When asked what would be proper times on Earth clock and on Paula's
    clock you agreed that they will differ.

    As Paula's cinematic in Earth frame and Bella's cinematic in Bella's
    frame, and both Earth frame and Bella's frame are inertial you are
    obviously contradicting yourself.

    Moreover you are violating the Principle of Relativity which states
    that the same experiments in different inertial frames of reference
    have necessarily the same outcomes.

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  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 29 13:21:25 2024
    W dniu 29.04.2024 o 12:45, Python pisze:
    Le 29/04/2024 à 03:41, Richard Hachel a écrit :
    Jean-Pierre Messager alleging that the comparison of the reference
    frames of Bella and Stella between them,
    in the famous problem of the double traveler of Tau Ceti, it was the
    same thing (he considers that in the Terrence-Bella report, it is the
    same phenomenon that occurs as in the Stella-Bella report, because, he
    says , Terrence like Stella are in Galilean frames of reference, and
    that there is therefore the same phenomenon which links them.

    In short, he wants us to treat Stella the way we treat Terrence.

    I understand his grievances.

    No you don't. My point is not about comparing Terrence-Bella (i.e.

    Oh, stinker Python is opening its muzzle again,
    and trying again to pretend he knows something.
    Tell me, poor stinker, have you already learnt
    what a function is? Are you still trying to
    determine its properties applying a French
    definition of a different word?

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  • From Richard Hachel@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 29 12:01:19 2024
    Le 29/04/2024 à 12:45, Python a écrit :
    Le 29/04/2024 à 03:41, Richard Hachel a écrit :
    Terrence is at rest in Earth frame.
    Stella is traveling to Tau Ceti at constant velocity [w.r.t Earth]
    Bella is traveling with constant acceleration to Tau Ceti,
    with a initial velocity of zero w.r.t Earth.
    Both leave Earth and arrive at Tau Ceti together.

    You claim is that Stella and Bella will record the same duration
    (proper times) for their journeys.

    Anyone who studied Relativity knows that this is false: proper
    duration along an inertial space-time path is always strictly
    longer than in any non-inertial path.

    But I don't even need to invoke SR to show you are contradicting
    yourself (and also the Principle of Relativity) :

    Consider Bella's trajectory in Stella's inertial frame of reference,
    Bella is leaving at a given non null speed, then decelerate gradually
    and travel back to Bella at increasing speed.

    Now consider another traveler, say Paula, who has, in Earth frame of reference, *exactly* the same kind of trajectory Bella has w.r.t
    Stella in the Tau Ceti previous scenario.

    When asked what would be proper times on Earth clock and on Paula's
    clock you agreed that they will differ.

    As Paula's cinematic in Earth frame and Bella's cinematic in Bella's
    frame, and both Earth frame and Bella's frame are inertial you are
    obviously contradicting yourself.

    Moreover you are violating the Principle of Relativity which states
    that the same experiments in different inertial frames of reference
    have necessarily the same outcomes.

    Voilà qui est bien dit et remarquablement expliqué.

    De telles choses manquent à la réflexion relativiste, et il serait bien
    de développer davantage.

    Tout est tellement brouillon dans l'esprit des physiciens du monde entier
    dès qu'on les pousse à la faute.

    Je pense que tu devrais essayer des comprendre correctement ce que je dis,
    puis écrire des articles
    relativistes parlant de choses superbes qu'on peut en tirer.

    Par exemple des articles comme "Le paradoxe de Langevin en vitesses
    apparentes" ou "le double voyage vers Tau Ceti".

    Moi, j'ai pas le temps.

    Sinon, j'ai répondu ce jour à cette question sur fr.sci.physique.

    R.H.

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  • From Richard Hachel@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 29 11:51:57 2024
    Le 29/04/2024 à 12:45, Python a écrit :
    Le 29/04/2024 à 03:41, Richard Hachel a écrit :

    Let me explain, again my argument :

    Mais je t'en prie, mon Jean-Pierre.

    R.H.

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