• Pendulum Clock or Atomic Clock ?

    From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 4 12:45:38 2023
    So, the greater the gravitation, the slower the time, as the general relativity announced ?

    Not so absolute! The greater the gravitational pull, the slower time is in some cases; the faster time is in others. General Relativity is a bit like a coin toss, a game of chance.

    The greater the gravitation, the faster the pendulum clock moves, while the atomic clock moves slower. As far as the "speed of time passing" is concerned, gravitation has exactly two opposite effects, just as a coin has both sides.

    That is to say, whether it is Gravitational Time Dilation or gravitational Time Contraction depends on which type of mechanical device they choose in advance.

    If you don't want to take chances, then, which one should you choose between pendulum clocks or atomic clocks?

    Relativity resists absolute time and attaches importance to relative time, so all relative time is equal. Since relative time is equal, these two kinds of locks should also be equal. There is no reason to choose one type of clock to exclude another.

    If a relative time is superior to another relative time, obviously, this is to create another absolute time in disguise, which is not what Relativity is willing to do.

    Since two types of equal clocks lead to contradictory conclusions, then you have to accept two contradictory systems of relativity theory, corresponding to different types of clocks: the general relativity of pendulum clocks and the general relativity of
    atomic clocks; of gravitational time effects, one causes time dilation and the other causes time contraction. Both sets of theories are equally correct.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VfhOL63jvB2Dmn4JCRmOx6S8Dh9nRbdC/view Page 69

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  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 4 14:44:15 2023
    On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 4:09:37 PM UTC-5, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn wrote:


    It does not matter how the clock works with which proper time is measured.
    It applies to all clocks, that is, *proper* clocks. Clocks measure time,
    but that does not mean that time is defined by what a clock shows.

    In particular, a pendulum clock is based on gravitation, so it is not a
    proper clock when the conditions for its proper operation are not met.


    ===================================
    To homas 'PointedEars' Lahn


    Thanks for your reply.

    That is good for you to say that a clock based on gravitation not fit for represent time. but would you think that a pendulum clock will never exist in any curved space?

    Also, you said a pendulum clock is based on gravitation, so it is not a proper clock when the conditions for its proper operation are not met. I would agree with you, however you must then say same thing against Atomic clock too, or any clock physicist
    used in the experiment to verify Relativity. So would you say physicist used wrong clock whose conditions for its proper operation are not met?

    Jack

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  • From Volney@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Thu May 4 22:51:08 2023
    On 5/4/2023 3:45 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    So, the greater the gravitation, the slower the time, as the general relativity announced ?

    The greater the gravitation, the faster the pendulum clock moves, while the atomic clock moves slower.

    Bzzzzt. Apples and oranges. The source of gravitation (also known as
    "earth") is *PART* of the pendulum clock system. It won't keep correct
    time in a gravitational field of different strength. It won't work at
    all aboard the ISS. Meanwhile, an atomic clock will continue to work
    properly (one second per second, locally) regardless of whether it's on
    Earth, the moon or on the ISS.

    Since two types of equal clocks lead to contradictory conclusions, then you have to accept two contradictory systems of relativity theory, corresponding to different types of clocks: the general relativity of pendulum clocks and the general relativity
    of atomic clocks; of gravitational time effects, one causes time dilation and the other causes time contraction.

    Nope. Pendulum clocks are "incomplete" without Earth or another source
    of gravity. They need to be calibrated to that gravity. Not so atomic
    clocks.

    Both sets of theories are equally correct.

    There is just one theory which is correct within measurement limitations.

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  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to Volney on Thu May 4 20:17:21 2023
    On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 9:51:07 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 5/4/2023 3:45 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    So, the greater the gravitation, the slower the time, as the general relativity announced ?
    The greater the gravitation, the faster the pendulum clock moves, while the atomic clock moves slower.
    Bzzzzt. Apples and oranges. The source of gravitation (also known as "earth") is *PART* of the pendulum clock system. It won't keep correct
    time in a gravitational field of different strength. It won't work at
    all aboard the ISS. Meanwhile, an atomic clock will continue to work properly (one second per second, locally) regardless of whether it's on Earth, the moon or on the ISS.
    Since two types of equal clocks lead to contradictory conclusions, then you have to accept two contradictory systems of relativity theory, corresponding to different types of clocks: the general relativity of pendulum clocks and the general
    relativity of atomic clocks; of gravitational time effects, one causes time dilation and the other causes time contraction.
    Nope. Pendulum clocks are "incomplete" without Earth or another source
    of gravity. They need to be calibrated to that gravity. Not so atomic clocks.
    Both sets of theories are equally correct.
    There is just one theory which is correct within measurement limitations.


    Do you just know pendulum clocks and atomic clock?
    How about different sort of atomic clock?
    How about proton clocks, plasma clocks, and even quark clocks?

    I compared all kind of those clocks on Page 71 of https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VfhOL63jvB2Dmn4JCRmOx6S8Dh9nRbdC/view

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  • From Volney@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Fri May 5 00:00:29 2023
    On 5/4/2023 11:17 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 9:51:07 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 5/4/2023 3:45 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    So, the greater the gravitation, the slower the time, as the general relativity announced ?
    The greater the gravitation, the faster the pendulum clock moves, while the atomic clock moves slower.
    Bzzzzt. Apples and oranges. The source of gravitation (also known as
    "earth") is *PART* of the pendulum clock system. It won't keep correct
    time in a gravitational field of different strength. It won't work at
    all aboard the ISS. Meanwhile, an atomic clock will continue to work
    properly (one second per second, locally) regardless of whether it's on
    Earth, the moon or on the ISS.
    Since two types of equal clocks lead to contradictory conclusions, then you have to accept two contradictory systems of relativity theory, corresponding to different types of clocks: the general relativity of pendulum clocks and the general
    relativity of atomic clocks; of gravitational time effects, one causes time dilation and the other causes time contraction.
    Nope. Pendulum clocks are "incomplete" without Earth or another source
    of gravity. They need to be calibrated to that gravity. Not so atomic
    clocks.
    Both sets of theories are equally correct.
    There is just one theory which is correct within measurement limitations.


    Do you just know pendulum clocks and atomic clock?

    There are obviously many kinds of clocks.
    I was pointing out the flaw in your argument, since a pendulum clock is technically incomplete without the earth or some gravitational mass
    which acts on the pendulum, while an atomic clock works anywhere. You
    tried to conflate the effect of different strengths of gravity on the
    rate of a pendulum clock with GR time dilation, which is bogus. Changing
    the crystal in a crystal controlled watch can change its tick rate, but
    that doesn't prove anything.

    How about different sort of atomic clock?

    Yes, they typically use different resonant frequencies of different
    elements, but they are complete and will still tick one second per
    second regardless of gravity. Meanwhile if you go to walmart and buy a
    pendulum cuckoo clock, you don't get the complete clock, but that's not
    a problem since you already have earth's gravity at home.

    How about proton clocks, plasma clocks, and even quark clocks?

    Sounds all made-up/imaginary. In your science fiction story, you can
    have them do whatever you want.

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  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to Volney on Thu May 4 21:36:17 2023
    On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 11:00:30 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 5/4/2023 11:17 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 9:51:07 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 5/4/2023 3:45 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    So, the greater the gravitation, the slower the time, as the general relativity announced ?
    The greater the gravitation, the faster the pendulum clock moves, while the atomic clock moves slower.
    Bzzzzt. Apples and oranges. The source of gravitation (also known as
    "earth") is *PART* of the pendulum clock system. It won't keep correct
    time in a gravitational field of different strength. It won't work at
    all aboard the ISS. Meanwhile, an atomic clock will continue to work
    properly (one second per second, locally) regardless of whether it's on >> Earth, the moon or on the ISS.
    Since two types of equal clocks lead to contradictory conclusions, then you have to accept two contradictory systems of relativity theory, corresponding to different types of clocks: the general relativity of pendulum clocks and the general
    relativity of atomic clocks; of gravitational time effects, one causes time dilation and the other causes time contraction.
    Nope. Pendulum clocks are "incomplete" without Earth or another source
    of gravity. They need to be calibrated to that gravity. Not so atomic
    clocks.
    Both sets of theories are equally correct.
    There is just one theory which is correct within measurement limitations.


    Do you just know pendulum clocks and atomic clock?
    There are obviously many kinds of clocks.
    I was pointing out the flaw in your argument, since a pendulum clock is technically incomplete without the earth or some gravitational mass
    which acts on the pendulum, while an atomic clock works anywhere. You
    tried to conflate the effect of different strengths of gravity on the
    rate of a pendulum clock with GR time dilation, which is bogus. Changing
    the crystal in a crystal controlled watch can change its tick rate, but
    that doesn't prove anything.
    How about different sort of atomic clock?
    Yes, they typically use different resonant frequencies of different elements, but they are complete and will still tick one second per
    second regardless of gravity. Meanwhile if you go to walmart and buy a pendulum cuckoo clock, you don't get the complete clock, but that's not
    a problem since you already have earth's gravity at home.
    How about proton clocks, plasma clocks, and even quark clocks?
    Sounds all made-up/imaginary. In your science fiction story, you can
    have them do whatever you want.


    My point is:
    since gravitation causes plasm clock faster and causes atomic clock slower, GR can not claims gravitation time dilation.

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  • From Volney@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Fri May 5 03:46:15 2023
    On 5/5/2023 12:36 AM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 11:00:30 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 5/4/2023 11:17 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 9:51:07 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 5/4/2023 3:45 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    So, the greater the gravitation, the slower the time, as the general relativity announced ?
    The greater the gravitation, the faster the pendulum clock moves, while the atomic clock moves slower.
    Bzzzzt. Apples and oranges. The source of gravitation (also known as
    "earth") is *PART* of the pendulum clock system. It won't keep correct >>>> time in a gravitational field of different strength. It won't work at
    all aboard the ISS. Meanwhile, an atomic clock will continue to work
    properly (one second per second, locally) regardless of whether it's on >>>> Earth, the moon or on the ISS.
    Since two types of equal clocks lead to contradictory conclusions, then you have to accept two contradictory systems of relativity theory, corresponding to different types of clocks: the general relativity of pendulum clocks and the general
    relativity of atomic clocks; of gravitational time effects, one causes time dilation and the other causes time contraction.
    Nope. Pendulum clocks are "incomplete" without Earth or another source >>>> of gravity. They need to be calibrated to that gravity. Not so atomic
    clocks.
    Both sets of theories are equally correct.
    There is just one theory which is correct within measurement limitations. >>>

    Do you just know pendulum clocks and atomic clock?
    There are obviously many kinds of clocks.
    I was pointing out the flaw in your argument, since a pendulum clock is
    technically incomplete without the earth or some gravitational mass
    which acts on the pendulum, while an atomic clock works anywhere. You
    tried to conflate the effect of different strengths of gravity on the
    rate of a pendulum clock with GR time dilation, which is bogus. Changing
    the crystal in a crystal controlled watch can change its tick rate, but
    that doesn't prove anything.
    How about different sort of atomic clock?
    Yes, they typically use different resonant frequencies of different
    elements, but they are complete and will still tick one second per
    second regardless of gravity. Meanwhile if you go to walmart and buy a
    pendulum cuckoo clock, you don't get the complete clock, but that's not
    a problem since you already have earth's gravity at home.
    How about proton clocks, plasma clocks, and even quark clocks?
    Sounds all made-up/imaginary. In your science fiction story, you can
    have them do whatever you want.


    My point is:
    since gravitation causes plasm clock faster and causes atomic clock slower, GR can not claims gravitation time dilation.

    I am not familiar with this plasm[a?] clock. Is it a design where the
    strength of gravity affects its operation directly, like a pendulum
    clock? And that is true even if GR is ignored?

    Does this clock depends on the gravitational FORCE (or acceleration) or
    on the gravitational POTENTIAL? Do you even know the difference? Most
    cranks don't. The fact that you confused the pendulum clock (depends on gravitational FORCE) and GR effects on an atomic clock (GR time dilation depends on the gravitational POTENTIAL difference) make me pretty
    certain that you don't.

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  • From The Starmaker@21:1/5 to Volney on Fri May 5 16:52:07 2023
    Volney wrote:

    On 5/4/2023 11:17 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Thursday, May 4, 2023 at 9:51:07 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 5/4/2023 3:45 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    So, the greater the gravitation, the slower the time, as the general relativity announced ?
    The greater the gravitation, the faster the pendulum clock moves, while the atomic clock moves slower.
    Bzzzzt. Apples and oranges. The source of gravitation (also known as
    "earth") is *PART* of the pendulum clock system. It won't keep correct
    time in a gravitational field of different strength. It won't work at
    all aboard the ISS. Meanwhile, an atomic clock will continue to work
    properly (one second per second, locally) regardless of whether it's on
    Earth, the moon or on the ISS.
    Since two types of equal clocks lead to contradictory conclusions, then you have to accept two contradictory systems of relativity theory, corresponding to different types of clocks: the general relativity of pendulum clocks and the general
    relativity of atomic clocks; of gravitational time effects, one causes time dilation and the other causes time contraction.
    Nope. Pendulum clocks are "incomplete" without Earth or another source
    of gravity. They need to be calibrated to that gravity. Not so atomic
    clocks.
    Both sets of theories are equally correct.
    There is just one theory which is correct within measurement limitations.


    Do you just know pendulum clocks and atomic clock?

    There are obviously many kinds of clocks.
    I was pointing out the flaw in your argument, since a pendulum clock is technically incomplete without the earth or some gravitational mass
    which acts on the pendulum, while an atomic clock works anywhere. You
    tried to conflate the effect of different strengths of gravity on the
    rate of a pendulum clock with GR time dilation, which is bogus. Changing
    the crystal in a crystal controlled watch can change its tick rate, but
    that doesn't prove anything.

    How about different sort of atomic clock?

    Yes, they typically use different resonant frequencies of different
    elements, but they are complete and will still tick one second per
    second regardless of gravity. Meanwhile if you go to walmart and buy a pendulum cuckoo clock, you don't get the complete clock, but that's not

    i love the sound in the morning of a ....cuckoo clock.

    cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo



    If anyone wants to recreate Einstein's clock experiment...one must use a
    clock he used...a ....cuckoo clock.



    a problem since you already have earth's gravity at home.

    How about proton clocks, plasma clocks, and even quark clocks?

    Sounds all made-up/imaginary. In your science fiction story, you can
    have them do whatever you want.

    --
    The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
    to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
    and challenge
    the unchallengeable.

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