• Second law for the kiddies

    From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 3 22:59:43 2023
    I summarise the laws of thermodynamics in the shortest possible form,
    in case there are any of them around who might have been fooled.
    For the technicalities, find a real thermodynamics book.

    0) The zeroth law states that thermal reservoirs in thermal contact
    reach thermal equilibrium, with no heat flowing from one to the other.
    This holds even though we do not know yet what temperature is,
    because empirical temperature scales will do,
    as long as we choose the same empirical temperature scale on both sides.

    1) First law, no unlimited creation of free energy.
    So no perpetuum mobile of the first kind.

    2) Second law, no perpetuum mobile of the second kind.
    One proves that Carnot cycles are the most efficient way possible
    to generate work from a temperature difference.
    (Yes, Sadi Carnot really was a genius)

    The efficiency of a Carnot proces can be shown
    to depend only on the temperature difference.
    Now we are in a position to -define- absolute temperature,
    (up to a multiplicative constant)
    by defining the effiency of a Carnot proces as 1 - T_low/T_high

    One easily sees that this definition of absolute temperature
    cannot depend on the working material of the Carnot cycle.
    (ideal gas, memory metal, rubber bands, pH change, magnetism, whatever)
    If it did we could drive one kind of heat engine with the other,
    and obtain limitless energy, which contradicts the first law.

    So from two reservoirs at equal absolute temperature
    it is not possible to obain work,
    -by the definition of absolute temperature-.

    What remains is to see whether two reservoirs
    at equal absolute temperature according to the second law
    satisfy the zeroth law, and vica versa.
    All experience show that this is indeed the case.

    So, for innocent and perhaps misled kiddies here
    who would want to falsify the second law of thermodynamics:
    the only way to accomplish that is to find an example
    in which the zeroth and the second law contradict each other.

    So, find two heat reservoirs at the same temperature by the zeroth law,
    and derive work from them by operating some kind of heat engine
    that takes heat from one and gives it to the other.
    This is what is known as making a perpetuum mobile of the second kind.
    (because the heat transfered will flow back spontaneously)

    Hint for the kiddies: get a life instead.

    Jan

    --
    Hint for Pentcho: I will ignore whatever shouting and armwaving you may
    do, unless you really demonstrate a perpetuum mobile of the second kind.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ross Finlayson@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Wed May 3 18:33:10 2023
    On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 2:01:55 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    I summarise the laws of thermodynamics in the shortest possible form,
    in case there are any of them around who might have been fooled.
    For the technicalities, find a real thermodynamics book.

    0) The zeroth law states that thermal reservoirs in thermal contact
    reach thermal equilibrium, with no heat flowing from one to the other.
    This holds even though we do not know yet what temperature is,
    because empirical temperature scales will do,
    as long as we choose the same empirical temperature scale on both sides.

    1) First law, no unlimited creation of free energy.
    So no perpetuum mobile of the first kind.

    2) Second law, no perpetuum mobile of the second kind.
    One proves that Carnot cycles are the most efficient way possible
    to generate work from a temperature difference.
    (Yes, Sadi Carnot really was a genius)

    The efficiency of a Carnot proces can be shown
    to depend only on the temperature difference.
    Now we are in a position to -define- absolute temperature,
    (up to a multiplicative constant)
    by defining the effiency of a Carnot proces as 1 - T_low/T_high

    One easily sees that this definition of absolute temperature
    cannot depend on the working material of the Carnot cycle.
    (ideal gas, memory metal, rubber bands, pH change, magnetism, whatever)
    If it did we could drive one kind of heat engine with the other,
    and obtain limitless energy, which contradicts the first law.

    So from two reservoirs at equal absolute temperature
    it is not possible to obain work,
    -by the definition of absolute temperature-.

    What remains is to see whether two reservoirs
    at equal absolute temperature according to the second law
    satisfy the zeroth law, and vica versa.
    All experience show that this is indeed the case.

    So, for innocent and perhaps misled kiddies here
    who would want to falsify the second law of thermodynamics:
    the only way to accomplish that is to find an example
    in which the zeroth and the second law contradict each other.

    So, find two heat reservoirs at the same temperature by the zeroth law,
    and derive work from them by operating some kind of heat engine
    that takes heat from one and gives it to the other.
    This is what is known as making a perpetuum mobile of the second kind. (because the heat transfered will flow back spontaneously)

    Hint for the kiddies: get a life instead.

    Jan

    --
    Hint for Pentcho: I will ignore whatever shouting and armwaving you may
    do, unless you really demonstrate a perpetuum mobile of the second kind.

    You didn't say "adiabatic and nonadiabatic".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Thomas Heger@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 4 07:42:41 2023
    Am 04.05.2023 um 03:33 schrieb Ross Finlayson:
    ...
    So, find two heat reservoirs at the same temperature by the zeroth law,
    and derive work from them by operating some kind of heat engine
    that takes heat from one and gives it to the other.
    This is what is known as making a perpetuum mobile of the second kind.
    (because the heat transfered will flow back spontaneously)

    Hint for the kiddies: get a life instead.

    Jan

    --
    Hint for Pentcho: I will ignore whatever shouting and armwaving you may
    do, unless you really demonstrate a perpetuum mobile of the second kind.

    You didn't say "adiabatic and nonadiabatic".



    I suggest asking ChatGPT to write an article of a thousand words, which
    contain (besides of 'nonadiabatic'):

    perpetuum mobile
    first, second, third kind
    Carnot cycle
    black hole
    aether
    Hawking radiation
    entropy
    second law of thermodynamics
    Haunebu IV
    Flatearther


    TH

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Thu May 4 02:11:37 2023
    On Thursday, 4 May 2023 at 10:57:42 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:

    Jan
    (who stands in great awe of Sadi Carnot,
    who discovered that there must be such a thing
    as the second law by pure thought)

    Well, all of your "laws of nature" are pure thought
    of yours, it's just that it's not always worthless.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Ross Finlayson on Thu May 4 10:57:39 2023
    Ross Finlayson <ross.a.finlayson@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 2:01:55?PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    I summarise the laws of thermodynamics in the shortest possible form,
    in case there are any of them around who might have been fooled.
    For the technicalities, find a real thermodynamics book.

    0) The zeroth law states that thermal reservoirs in thermal contact
    reach thermal equilibrium, with no heat flowing from one to the other.
    This holds even though we do not know yet what temperature is,
    because empirical temperature scales will do,
    as long as we choose the same empirical temperature scale on both sides.

    1) First law, no unlimited creation of free energy.
    So no perpetuum mobile of the first kind.

    2) Second law, no perpetuum mobile of the second kind.
    One proves that Carnot cycles are the most efficient way possible
    to generate work from a temperature difference.
    (Yes, Sadi Carnot really was a genius)

    The efficiency of a Carnot proces can be shown
    to depend only on the temperature difference.
    Now we are in a position to -define- absolute temperature,
    (up to a multiplicative constant)
    by defining the effiency of a Carnot proces as 1 - T_low/T_high

    One easily sees that this definition of absolute temperature
    cannot depend on the working material of the Carnot cycle.
    (ideal gas, memory metal, rubber bands, pH change, magnetism, whatever)
    If it did we could drive one kind of heat engine with the other,
    and obtain limitless energy, which contradicts the first law.

    So from two reservoirs at equal absolute temperature
    it is not possible to obain work,
    -by the definition of absolute temperature-.

    What remains is to see whether two reservoirs
    at equal absolute temperature according to the second law
    satisfy the zeroth law, and vica versa.
    All experience show that this is indeed the case.

    So, for innocent and perhaps misled kiddies here
    who would want to falsify the second law of thermodynamics:
    the only way to accomplish that is to find an example
    in which the zeroth and the second law contradict each other.

    So, find two heat reservoirs at the same temperature by the zeroth law,
    and derive work from them by operating some kind of heat engine
    that takes heat from one and gives it to the other.
    This is what is known as making a perpetuum mobile of the second kind. (because the heat transfered will flow back spontaneously)

    Hint for the kiddies: get a life instead.

    Jan

    --
    Hint for Pentcho: I will ignore whatever shouting and armwaving you may
    do, unless you really demonstrate a perpetuum mobile of the second kind.

    You didn't say "adiabatic and nonadiabatic".

    That falls under:
    'For the technicalities, find a real thermodynamics book.'
    And part of it is implied in assuming a 'Carnot proces'.

    What I explained is what it would take to falsify second law,
    and why none of the waffle seen here comes anywhere near
    to what would be required.
    To get beyond this you really need to invent the entropy,
    and that is definitely not for the kiddies,
    (or for most adults)

    Jan
    (who stands in great awe of Sadi Carnot,
    who discovered that there must be such a thing
    as the second law by pure thought)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ross Finlayson@21:1/5 to Thomas Heger on Thu May 4 11:19:19 2023
    On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 10:42:44 PM UTC-7, Thomas Heger wrote:
    Am 04.05.2023 um 03:33 schrieb Ross Finlayson:
    ...
    So, find two heat reservoirs at the same temperature by the zeroth law, >> and derive work from them by operating some kind of heat engine
    that takes heat from one and gives it to the other.
    This is what is known as making a perpetuum mobile of the second kind.
    (because the heat transfered will flow back spontaneously)

    Hint for the kiddies: get a life instead.

    Jan

    --
    Hint for Pentcho: I will ignore whatever shouting and armwaving you may >> do, unless you really demonstrate a perpetuum mobile of the second kind.

    You didn't say "adiabatic and nonadiabatic".

    I suggest asking ChatGPT to write an article of a thousand words, which contain (besides of 'nonadiabatic'):

    perpetuum mobile
    first, second, third kind
    Carnot cycle
    black hole
    aether
    Hawking radiation
    entropy
    second law of thermodynamics
    Haunebu IV
    Flatearther


    TH


    No, leave out the second half, and add
    Maxwell demon,
    Otto cycle,
    triple points of steam,
    the acceleration of freezing of hotter water,
    dynamics of phase transitions,
    and these kinds of things,
    but mostly "steam tables".

    Second law is pretty great but of course "entropy" has various definitions
    and "enthalpy" is a thing and in a theory of potentials there's also then
    that "information a quantity after entropy is also over-loaded in that
    it's under-defined".

    First law and Second law are sort of at odds
    and don't necessarily reflect each other, but
    establish that each is an enthymeme, then that
    after continuum mechanics is used to show
    2'nd law adds up, particulars are built out.


    Some have that the best fuel/air mix is 13.5:1.

    First law is mostly about the steam tables,
    about transitions and phase transitions.

    Heat of course is modeled as kinetic.
    But, the infrared conveys it, that
    though it's always simply that the
    fundamental quantities of mass and charge,
    and energy stored in massy bodies,
    or circulations of charge, reflect
    heat, vibration, oscillation, rotation, displacement,
    in kinetics, kinematics.

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)