• #### Coordinate Time Axis Points to Past Direction in Interior of Schwarzsch

From Hannu Poropudas@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 3 03:58:13 2023
OPEN QUESTION
(I refer here to my posting chain titles in this sci.physics.relativity Google Group:
"Analytic GR solutions of S2-star orbits and precession 732” per revolution", "Re: Analytic GR solutions of S2-star orbits and precession 732” per revolution")

PROBLEM OF PHYSICS FOUND WHICH HAS TO BE SOLVED PROPERLY:

Coordinate Time Axis Points to Past Direction in Interior of Schwarzschild Black Hole (0 < r < 2*MG/c^2).

Proper Time Axis Points to Future Direction in Interior of Schwarzschild Black Hole (0 < r < 2*MG/c^2).

Best Regards,
Hannu Poropudas
Kolamäentie 9E,
90900 Kiiminki / Oulu,
Finland

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Tom Roberts@21:1/5 to Hannu Poropudas on Wed May 3 10:53:53 2023
On 5/3/23 5:58 AM, Hannu Poropudas wrote:
PROBLEM OF PHYSICS FOUND WHICH HAS TO BE SOLVED PROPERLY:

The solution is trivial.

Coordinate Time Axis Points to Past Direction in Interior of
Schwarzschild Black Hole (0 < r < 2*MG/c^2).

Only when you choose such coordinates. Instead, choose coordinates in
which the time axis is future pointing. Your imaginary "problem" is
solved. Of course in this region the singularity is in the future of
every point. Note also that your coordinate "r" is TIMELIKE, and a
suitable future-pointing time axis is -d/dr (d = partial derivative). Of
course many other coordinate systems are possible, and some don't even
have a time axis (e.g. Kruskal coordinates).

Proper Time Axis Points to Future Direction in Interior of
Schwarzschild Black Hole (0 < r < 2*MG/c^2).

For any object, anywhere and anywhen, its proper time axis is always
future pointing. That's part of what "proper time" means.

Tom Roberts

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Volney@21:1/5 to Tom Roberts on Wed May 3 18:21:45 2023
On 5/3/2023 11:53 AM, Tom Roberts wrote:

For any object, anywhere and anywhen, its proper time axis is always
future pointing. That's part of what "proper time" means.

I once heard an interesting description long ago that at the event
horizon, the time axis and the r axis switch behaviors. That is, outside
time is always into the future and never the past, nor can it be stopped
but you have freedom in 3 space dimensions. Inside the horizon, the "r"
axis is always heading to the singularity and never away from it, nor
can motion along the r axis be stopped. So "r" behaves more like time
than distance. I think the poster claimed that there was freedom of
movement in time. The alternative is that time is time but there are two timelike dimensions.

Bogus?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Hannu Poropudas@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 3 22:31:15 2023
keskiviikko 3. toukokuuta 2023 klo 18.56.17 UTC+3 Tom Roberts kirjoitti:
On 5/3/23 5:58 AM, Hannu Poropudas wrote:
PROBLEM OF PHYSICS FOUND WHICH HAS TO BE SOLVED PROPERLY:
The solution is trivial.

NO

Coordinate Time Axis Points to Past Direction in Interior of
Schwarzschild Black Hole (0 < r < 2*MG/c^2).
Only when you choose such coordinates. Instead, choose coordinates in
which the time axis is future pointing. Your imaginary "problem" is
solved. Of course in this region the singularity is in the future of
every point. Note also that your coordinate "r" is TIMELIKE, and a
suitable future-pointing time axis is -d/dr (d = partial derivative). Of course many other coordinate systems are possible, and some don't even
have a time axis (e.g. Kruskal coordinates).

NO, I think that this your mentioned mathematics (=only trick of mathematics?) is of NO USE in this case of REAL General Relativity problem of Schwarzschild metrics.

I think that this solution could be perhaps my speculative "time-wave" interpretation, which I mentioned in my recent posting chain "Megacycles"

What could this speculative "time-wave" be in case of black hole and its surroundings?

My speculation: It consists two parts: one part time is flowing to past
and second part time is flowing to future. And there are hundreds of thousands of
such couples around singularity of black hole (instead of singularity
I have "creation stone of the Universe") and its surroundings ?

Please take a look two analytic General Relativity solutions of
S2-star orbits ( SgrA* Black Hole) mine from above mentioned posting chain. (Maple 9 program codes (two solutions are primitive functions in parametric form)
and they can be copy pasted into Maple and run in Maple programs and
see this REAL GR PROBLEM.)

Proper Time Axis Points to Future Direction in Interior of
Schwarzschild Black Hole (0 < r < 2*MG/c^2).
For any object, anywhere and anywhen, its proper time axis is always
future pointing. That's part of what "proper time" means.

YES

Tom Roberts

Hannu Poropudas

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From JanPB@21:1/5 to Volney on Wed May 3 23:56:33 2023
On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 3:21:45 PM UTC-7, Volney wrote:
On 5/3/2023 11:53 AM, Tom Roberts wrote:

For any object, anywhere and anywhen, its proper time axis is always future pointing. That's part of what "proper time" means.

I once heard an interesting description long ago that at the event
horizon, the time axis and the r axis switch behaviors. That is, outside time is always into the future and never the past, nor can it be stopped
but you have freedom in 3 space dimensions. Inside the horizon, the "r"
axis is always heading to the singularity and never away from it, nor
can motion along the r axis be stopped. So "r" behaves more like time
than distance. I think the poster claimed that there was freedom of
movement in time. The alternative is that time is time but there are two timelike dimensions.

Bogus?

This is only a coordinate property of the standard Schwarzschild coordinates, so partially bogus. The "r" coordinate inside the horizon *is* timelike and
the "t" one *is* spacelike, so there is "freedom of movement" but it's
ordinary movement in space. This space is of infinite extent but it cannot be explored arbitrarily because the singularity approaching in finite time.

The "r" and "t" are just letters that happen to coincide with
the opposite-causality coordinate letters labelling the outside due to an accident of the method of derivation of this solution (same formula works
with the same letters so it looks like a causality "switch" has occurred).

--
Jan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to JanPB on Thu May 4 00:23:23 2023
On Thursday, 4 May 2023 at 08:56:34 UTC+2, JanPB wrote:
On Wednesday, May 3, 2023 at 3:21:45 PM UTC-7, Volney wrote:
On 5/3/2023 11:53 AM, Tom Roberts wrote:

For any object, anywhere and anywhen, its proper time axis is always future pointing. That's part of what "proper time" means.

I once heard an interesting description long ago that at the event horizon, the time axis and the r axis switch behaviors. That is, outside time is always into the future and never the past, nor can it be stopped but you have freedom in 3 space dimensions. Inside the horizon, the "r" axis is always heading to the singularity and never away from it, nor
can motion along the r axis be stopped. So "r" behaves more like time
than distance. I think the poster claimed that there was freedom of movement in time. The alternative is that time is time but there are two timelike dimensions.

Bogus?
This is only a coordinate property of the standard Schwarzschild coordinates,

While, on the other hand, your time dilation idiocy is
only a coordinate property of the standard Einstein/Minkowski
coordinates.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Tom Roberts@21:1/5 to Hannu Poropudas on Thu May 4 14:26:41 2023
On 5/4/23 12:31 AM, Hannu Poropudas wrote:
keskiviikko 3. toukokuuta 2023 klo 18.56.17 UTC+3 Tom Roberts
kirjoitti:
On 5/3/23 5:58 AM, Hannu Poropudas wrote:
PROBLEM OF PHYSICS FOUND WHICH HAS TO BE SOLVED PROPERLY:
The solution is trivial.

NO

Yes. You simply do not understand this.

Coordinate Time Axis Points to Past Direction in Interior of
Schwarzschild Black Hole (0 < r < 2*MG/c^2).
Only when you choose such coordinates. Instead, choose coordinates
in which the time axis is future pointing. Your imaginary "problem"
is solved. Of course in this region the singularity is in the
future of every point. Note also that your coordinate "r" is
TIMELIKE, and a suitable future-pointing time axis is -d/dr (d =
partial derivative). Of course many other coordinate systems are
possible, and some don't even have a time axis (e.g. Kruskal
coordinates).

NO, I think that this your mentioned mathematics (=only trick of mathematics?) is of NO USE in this case of REAL General Relativity
problem of Schwarzschild metrics.

THINK about what you just said. The metric is a TENSOR, and is thus
completely independent of any coordinates. Moreover, one is free to
select any coordinate system one likes. This is not "only a trick of mathematics", this is an essential aspect of GR, which is inherently
based on the differential geometry of semi-Riemannian manifolds.

The usual Schwarzschild coordinates on Schwarzschild spacetime apply in
two DISJOINT regions, with a singular region in which they don't apply
at all (here G=c=1):
2M<r: the region outside the horizon; r is spacelike, t is
timelike, and d/dt is future pointing
0<r<2M: the region inside the horizon; t is spacelike, r is
timelike, and -d/dr is future pointing
r=2M: these coordinates are singular, and therefore useless
the manifold itself.

It took physicists many decades to learn to distinguish
coordinate-specific properties from properties of the manifold itself.
You seem to never have learned that essential lesson about differential geometry and GR.

My speculation: [... complete nonsense displaying a serious lack of understanding of basic GR]

Tom Roberts

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to Tom Roberts on Thu May 4 22:20:30 2023
On Thursday, 4 May 2023 at 21:26:52 UTC+2, Tom Roberts wrote:
On 5/4/23 12:31 AM, Hannu Poropudas wrote:
keskiviikko 3. toukokuuta 2023 klo 18.56.17 UTC+3 Tom Roberts
kirjoitti:
On 5/3/23 5:58 AM, Hannu Poropudas wrote:
PROBLEM OF PHYSICS FOUND WHICH HAS TO BE SOLVED PROPERLY:
The solution is trivial.

NO
Yes. You simply do not understand this.
Coordinate Time Axis Points to Past Direction in Interior of
Schwarzschild Black Hole (0 < r < 2*MG/c^2).
Only when you choose such coordinates. Instead, choose coordinates
in which the time axis is future pointing. Your imaginary "problem"
is solved. Of course in this region the singularity is in the
future of every point. Note also that your coordinate "r" is
TIMELIKE, and a suitable future-pointing time axis is -d/dr (d =
partial derivative). Of course many other coordinate systems are
possible, and some don't even have a time axis (e.g. Kruskal
coordinates).

NO, I think that this your mentioned mathematics (=only trick of mathematics?) is of NO USE in this case of REAL General Relativity
problem of Schwarzschild metrics.
THINK about what you just said. The metric is a TENSOR, and is thus completely independent of any coordinates.

Samely as it is completely unmeasurable.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Hannu Poropudas@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 4 23:14:00 2023
torstai 4. toukokuuta 2023 klo 22.26.52 UTC+3 Tom Roberts kirjoitti:
On 5/4/23 12:31 AM, Hannu Poropudas wrote:
keskiviikko 3. toukokuuta 2023 klo 18.56.17 UTC+3 Tom Roberts
kirjoitti:
On 5/3/23 5:58 AM, Hannu Poropudas wrote:
PROBLEM OF PHYSICS FOUND WHICH HAS TO BE SOLVED PROPERLY:
The solution is trivial.

NO
Yes. You simply do not understand this.

NO, real space-time is not full 4-dimensional due time dimension
is different kind that space dimensions.

Coordinate Time Axis Points to Past Direction in Interior of
Schwarzschild Black Hole (0 < r < 2*MG/c^2).
Only when you choose such coordinates. Instead, choose coordinates
in which the time axis is future pointing. Your imaginary "problem"
is solved. Of course in this region the singularity is in the
future of every point. Note also that your coordinate "r" is
TIMELIKE, and a suitable future-pointing time axis is -d/dr (d =
partial derivative). Of course many other coordinate systems are
possible, and some don't even have a time axis (e.g. Kruskal
coordinates).

NO, I think that this your mentioned mathematics (=only trick of mathematics?) is of NO USE in this case of REAL General Relativity
problem of Schwarzschild metrics.
THINK about what you just said. The metric is a TENSOR, and is thus completely independent of any coordinates. Moreover, one is free to
select any coordinate system one likes. This is not "only a trick of mathematics", this is an essential aspect of GR, which is inherently
based on the differential geometry of semi-Riemannian manifolds.

The usual Schwarzschild coordinates on Schwarzschild spacetime apply in
two DISJOINT regions, with a singular region in which they don't apply
at all (here G=c=1):
2M<r: the region outside the horizon; r is spacelike, t is
timelike, and d/dt is future pointing
0<r<2M: the region inside the horizon; t is spacelike, r is
timelike, and -d/dr is future pointing
r=2M: these coordinates are singular, and therefore useless
the manifold itself.

It took physicists many decades to learn to distinguish
coordinate-specific properties from properties of the manifold itself.
You seem to never have learned that essential lesson about differential geometry and GR.

Full 4-dimensional manifold mathematics problem is this:

Real space-time is not full 4-dimensional due time dimension
is different kind that space dimensions.

My speculation: [... complete nonsense displaying a serious lack of understanding of basic GR]

I think that new physics starts in many cases with somehow rough speculations and
then we continue investigations with experimental observations about these rough speculations that could they (or some modifications of them) correspond somehow to REAL (old or new) physical properties of the Universe ?

First is situation such that we don't properly understand how to formulate
new rough speculations correctly or exactly and this is the case here
with the time dimension (we don't understand properly deep nature of time dimension)?

Situation with new knowledge has been so in history of physics many times ?

Tom Roberts

Hannu Poropudas

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Tom Roberts@21:1/5 to Hannu Poropudas on Sat May 6 10:59:13 2023
On 5/5/23 1:14 AM, Hannu Poropudas wrote:
torstai 4. toukokuuta 2023 klo 22.26.52 UTC+3 Tom Roberts kirjoitti:
You simply do not understand this.

NO, real space-time is not full 4-dimensional due time dimension is
different kind that space dimensions.

That is VERY naive. The Lorentzian manifolds of GR have dimension (3+1),
not 4. This is very basic, and the fact that you do not understand it
indicates that you do not really understand GR, despite your many
attempts to write about it around here (which I ignore due to their
clear and obvious ignorance and naivete).

Real space-time is not full 4-dimensional due time dimension is
different kind that space dimensions.

Hmmm. First, spacetime is a MODEL, and is not "real". Second, the
Lorentzian manifolds of GR are SEMI-RIEMANNIAN, not Riemannian.

I think that new physics starts in many cases with somehow rough
speculations [...]

Yes. But it does NOT start from a position of ignorance. EVERY physicist
who has created a viable new theory has demonstrated a masterful
understanding of the then-current physics, both theoretical and
experimental. So if you want to create some new theory, first STUDY GR
and learn its fundamentals, details, and experiments. There is no
shortcut.

Tom Roberts

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to Tom Roberts on Sat May 6 09:06:54 2023
On Saturday, 6 May 2023 at 17:59:26 UTC+2, Tom Roberts wrote:

Yes. But it does NOT start from a position of ignorance. EVERY physicist
who has created a viable new theory has demonstrated a masterful understanding of the then-current physics, both theoretical and
experimental.

Your idiot guru, on the other hand, was unable
to understand even basic definitions, and thus
created The Shit.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)