• GPS and Relativity

    From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 24 12:24:35 2023
    A hermit living up on the mountain decided to go down to replenish daily necessities, including shoes. According to the size of his own feet, he cut some pieces of rope for the measurement of future shoes. A total of five shoes of different materials are
    needed, and he prepares five pieces of ropes of different materials accordingly. At the shoe store down the mountain, there were problems: the rope had shrunk and no longer reflected the size of his feet.
    Fortunately, the hermit is an excellent relativity expert. He took out the scientific instruments he carried and measured the local temperature, humidity, and atmospheric pressure. In particular, he didn't leave out the local altitude, which affects
    Earth's gravitational force, something relativity theorists are particularly fond of, and one of the factors that causes the rope to shrink.
    After a series of complex and dizzying scientific operations, considering all the above-mentioned physical environmental factors, of which the gravitation is just few tiny parts, the excellent scientist reached the adjusted length of final version and re-
    marked the five ropes. He proudly handed it over to the shopkeeper, although those calculations make no sense since factors are too complicated to consider.
    Without saying a word, the shopkeeper immediately threw the unusable ropes directly into the trash can. The shopkeeper simply took off the physicist's shoes, and quickly measured the size of his feet while the great physicist was struggling to persuade
    the bourgeoisie of the beauty of General Relativity in a sophisticated way. Above is just what happening of Relative theory in application of GPS in 2022.

    Adapted from Chapter Five " Gravitation and Time" in book "Absolute Time": https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VfhOL63jvB2Dmn4JCRmOx6S8Dh9nRbdC/view

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 24 12:38:28 2023
    The points here:

    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    2. If above calculation could be done by miracle, then the results is that all clocks are synchronized to UTC.
    3. synchronization process could be done and does be done by satellite simply receiving UTC information at base station in the earth.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Mon Apr 24 21:58:43 2023
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 06:35:40 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 21:38:30 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    The points here:

    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    2. If above calculation could be done by miracle, then the results is that all clocks are synchronized to UTC.
    No, they are not.
    besides gravitation, there are other factors that need to be considered.

    http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
    with leap seconds, the difference between GPS
    time and UTC is growing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Mon Apr 24 21:33:55 2023
    On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 21:38:30 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    The points here:

    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    2. If above calculation could be done by miracle, then the results is that all clocks are synchronized to UTC.

    No, they are not.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to Maciej Wozniak on Mon Apr 24 21:35:38 2023
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 21:38:30 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    The points here:

    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    2. If above calculation could be done by miracle, then the results is that all clocks are synchronized to UTC.
    No, they are not.

    besides gravitation, there are other factors that need to be considered. For example, the propagation of electromagnetic waves in the atmosphere will be affected by airflow, dust, humidity, and other numerous more factors. Therefore, their calculations
    cannot be incomplete, so such calculations cannot be used to adjust satellite time at all.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Mon Apr 24 22:32:19 2023
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 07:24:32 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:58:45 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 06:35:40 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 21:38:30 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    The points here:

    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    2. If above calculation could be done by miracle, then the results is that all clocks are synchronized to UTC.
    No, they are not.
    besides gravitation, there are other factors that need to be considered.
    http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
    with leap seconds, the difference between GPS
    time and UTC is growing.
    That means UTC is stable, and GPS always need to synchronized! thanks for supporting me.

    This means - UTC time and GPS time are 2 different
    times. Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real
    times dilates.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to Maciej Wozniak on Mon Apr 24 22:24:30 2023
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:58:45 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 06:35:40 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:33:56 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Monday, 24 April 2023 at 21:38:30 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    The points here:

    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    2. If above calculation could be done by miracle, then the results is that all clocks are synchronized to UTC.
    No, they are not.
    besides gravitation, there are other factors that need to be considered.
    http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
    with leap seconds, the difference between GPS
    time and UTC is growing.

    That means UTC is stable, and GPS always need to synchronized! thanks for supporting me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 24 23:24:08 2023
    This means - UTC time and GPS time are 2 different
    times. Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real
    times dilates.



    What you said just support me! you said that all satellite clock must be must are synchronized to UTC minus 18 second.

    since UTC=GPS-18

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Tue Apr 25 00:02:22 2023
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 08:24:09 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    This means - UTC time and GPS time are 2 different
    times. Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real
    times dilates.
    What you said just support me! you said that all satellite clock must be must are synchronized to UTC minus 18 second.

    since UTC=GPS-18

    At the moment it is 18, was 17 in october 2022,
    was 0 (I guess) when GPS was created.

    UTC time and GPS time are two different things.
    Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real times
    dilates.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to Maciej Wozniak on Tue Apr 25 00:40:24 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:02:24 AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

    UTC time and GPS time are two different things.
    Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real times
    dilates.

    OK Point is :



    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    2. If above calculation could be done by miracle, then the results is that all clocks are synchronized to UTC.
    3. synchronization process could be done and does be done by satellite simply receiving UTC information at base station in the earth.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Tue Apr 25 00:49:40 2023
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 09:40:26 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:02:24 AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

    UTC time and GPS time are two different things.
    Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real times
    dilates.
    OK Point is :
    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.

    Oh, assuming The Holy Postulates they should be
    simply left unsynchronized. GPS wouldn't work, of
    course, but what a nice symmetry we would have
    instead... That would be proper and correct, that's
    THE BEST WAY we're [allegedly] FORCED to.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to Maciej Wozniak on Tue Apr 25 14:47:39 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:49:42 AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 09:40:26 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:02:24 AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

    UTC time and GPS time are two different things.
    Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real times
    dilates.
    OK Point is :
    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    Oh, assuming The Holy Postulates they should be
    simply left unsynchronized. GPS wouldn't work, of
    course, but what a nice symmetry we would have
    instead... That would be proper and correct, that's
    THE BEST WAY we're [allegedly] FORCED to.


    since UTC=GPS-18
    There is no need for relativity theory to synchronize satellite's clock.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Volney@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Tue Apr 25 21:37:28 2023
    On 4/25/2023 5:47 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:49:42 AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 09:40:26 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:02:24 AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

    UTC time and GPS time are two different things.
    Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real times
    dilates.
    OK Point is :
    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    Oh, assuming The Holy Postulates they should be
    simply left unsynchronized. GPS wouldn't work, of
    course, but what a nice symmetry we would have
    instead... That would be proper and correct, that's
    THE BEST WAY we're [allegedly] FORCED to.


    since UTC=GPS-18
    There is no need for relativity theory to synchronize satellite's clock.


    Kꙫꙫkfight!!!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to Volney on Tue Apr 25 19:28:46 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 8:37:29 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:



    since UTC=GPS-18
    There is no need for relativity theory to synchronize satellite's clock.

    Kꙫꙫkfight!!!


    Relativity Theorist try to persuade people that satellite clock is adjusted by Relativity calculation. It is not the fact. satellite clocks are synchronized by GPS time, which is UTC+8.

    such a simple formula : UTC=GPS-18

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dono.@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Tue Apr 25 20:08:49 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 7:28:48 PM UTC-7, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 8:37:29 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:



    since UTC=GPS-18
    There is no need for relativity theory to synchronize satellite's clock.

    Kꙫꙫkfight!!!
    Relativity Theorist try to persuade people that satellite clock is adjusted by Relativity calculation. It is not the fact. satellite clocks are synchronized by GPS time, which is UTC+8.

    Do you realize how stupid you are? Of course not.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Tue Apr 25 22:57:06 2023
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 23:47:41 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:49:42 AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 09:40:26 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:02:24 AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

    UTC time and GPS time are two different things.
    Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real times
    dilates.
    OK Point is :
    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculation of Relativity.
    Oh, assuming The Holy Postulates they should be
    simply left unsynchronized. GPS wouldn't work, of
    course, but what a nice symmetry we would have
    instead... That would be proper and correct, that's
    THE BEST WAY we're [allegedly] FORCED to.
    since UTC=GPS-18
    There is no need for relativity theory to synchronize satellite's clock.

    Assuming The Shit you can't synchronize them.
    It's evil. THE BEST WAY you're FORCED to is
    - leaving them unsynchronized.

    GPS wouldn't work, of course, but what a nice
    symmetry we would have instead...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to Maciej Wozniak on Wed Apr 26 08:16:52 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 12:57:07 AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

    Assuming The Shit you can't synchronize them.
    It's evil. THE BEST WAY you're FORCED to is
    - leaving them unsynchronized.
    GPS wouldn't work, of course, but what a nice
    symmetry we would have instead...

    After a series of complex and dizzying scientific operations, considering all the above-mentioned physical environmental factors, of which the gravitation is just few tiny parts, the excellent scientist reached the adjusted length of final version and re-
    marked the five ropes. He proudly handed it over to the shopkeeper, although those calculations make no sense since factors are too complicated to consider.
    Without saying a word, the shopkeeper immediately threw the unusable ropes directly into the trash can. The shopkeeper simply took off the physicist's shoes, and quickly measured the size of his feet .

    above story tell us, GPS don't need Relativity to calculate the time dilation. instead, just use UTC in which GPS=UTC +18

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Wed Apr 26 18:18:46 2023
    Jack Liu <liuedy@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:49:42?AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 09:40:26 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:02:24?AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

    UTC time and GPS time are two different things.
    Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real times
    dilates.
    OK Point is :
    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculat
    ion of Relativity.
    Oh, assuming The Holy Postulates they should be
    simply left unsynchronized. GPS wouldn't work, of
    course, but what a nice symmetry we would have
    instead... That would be proper and correct, that's
    THE BEST WAY we're [allegedly] FORCED to.


    since UTC=GPS-18
    There is no need for relativity theory to synchronize satellite's clock.

    All this talk of clock synchronisation
    is for amateurs who don't understand how it is done.
    (Synchronisation is for convenience only)

    It suffices to note the differences,
    (like BIPM does)

    Jan

    --
    "Passepartout me convient," rpondit le gentleman. "Vous m'tes
    recommand. J'ai de bons renseignements sur votre compte. Vous
    connaissez mes conditions?"

    "Oui, monsieur."

    "Bien. Quelle heure avez-vous?"

    "Onze heures vingt-deux," rpondit Passepartout, en tirant des
    profondeurs de son gousset une norme montre d'argent.

    "Vous retardez," dit Mr. Fogg.

    "Que monsieur me pardonne, mais c'est impossible."

    "Vous retardez de quatre minutes. N'importe. Il suffit de constater
    l'cart. Donc, partir de ce moment, onze heures vingt-neuf du matin,
    ce mercredi 2 octobre 1872, vous tes mon service."
    (Phileas Fogg)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Wed Apr 26 11:55:46 2023
    On Wednesday, 26 April 2023 at 18:18:49 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Jack Liu <liu...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:49:42?AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 09:40:26 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 2:02:24?AM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:

    UTC time and GPS time are two different things.
    Both don't dilate, of course, none of the real times
    dilates.
    OK Point is :
    1. Clocks in variety of Satellite could not be adjusted by simple calculat
    ion of Relativity.
    Oh, assuming The Holy Postulates they should be
    simply left unsynchronized. GPS wouldn't work, of
    course, but what a nice symmetry we would have
    instead... That would be proper and correct, that's
    THE BEST WAY we're [allegedly] FORCED to.


    since UTC=GPS-18
    There is no need for relativity theory to synchronize satellite's clock.
    All this talk of clock synchronisation
    is for amateurs who don't understand how it is done.

    Is that why your idiot guru talked so much about
    it?

    (Synchronisation is for convenience only)

    Unlike The Shit, which is for the holy cause
    of praising The Shit.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 29 09:14:48 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:55:48 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:


    A hermit living up on the mountain decided to go down to replenish daily necessities, including shoes. According to the size of his own feet, he cut some pieces of rope for the measurement of future shoes. A total of five shoes of different materials are
    needed, and he prepares five pieces of ropes of different materials accordingly. At the shoe store down the mountain, there were problems: the rope had shrunk and no longer reflected the size of his feet.

    Fortunately, the hermit is an excellent relativity expert. He took out the scientific instruments he carried and measured the local temperature, humidity, and atmospheric pressure. In particular, he didn't leave out the local altitude, which affects
    Earth's gravitational force, something relativity theorists are particularly fond of, and one of the factors that causes the rope to shrink.

    After a series of complex and dizzying scientific operations, considering all the above-mentioned physical environmental factors, of which the gravitation is just few tiny parts, the excellent scientist reached the adjusted length of final version and re-
    marked the five ropes. He proudly handed it over to the shopkeeper, although those calculations make no sense since factors are too complicated to consider.

    Without saying a word, the shopkeeper immediately threw the unusable ropes directly into the trash can. The shopkeeper simply took off the physicist's shoes, and quickly measured the size of his feet while the great physicist was struggling to persuade
    the bourgeoisie of the beauty of General Relativity.

    Above is just what happening of Relative theory in application of GPS in 2022.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From mitchrae3323@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Sat Apr 29 10:08:41 2023
    On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 9:14:50 AM UTC-7, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:55:48 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:


    A hermit living up on the mountain decided to go down to replenish daily necessities, including shoes. According to the size of his own feet, he cut some pieces of rope for the measurement of future shoes. A total of five shoes of different materials
    are needed, and he prepares five pieces of ropes of different materials accordingly. At the shoe store down the mountain, there were problems: the rope had shrunk and no longer reflected the size of his feet.

    Fortunately, the hermit is an excellent relativity expert. He took out the scientific instruments he carried and measured the local temperature, humidity, and atmospheric pressure. In particular, he didn't leave out the local altitude, which affects
    Earth's gravitational force, something relativity theorists are particularly fond of, and one of the factors that causes the rope to shrink.

    After a series of complex and dizzying scientific operations, considering all the above-mentioned physical environmental factors, of which the gravitation is just few tiny parts, the excellent scientist reached the adjusted length of final version and
    re-marked the five ropes. He proudly handed it over to the shopkeeper, although those calculations make no sense since factors are too complicated to consider.
    Without saying a word, the shopkeeper immediately threw the unusable ropes directly into the trash can. The shopkeeper simply took off the physicist's shoes, and quickly measured the size of his feet while the great physicist was struggling to persuade
    the bourgeoisie of the beauty of General Relativity.
    Above is just what happening of Relative theory in application of GPS in 2022.

    There is more than one slow time for GPS. It has its moving in orbit time dilation
    together with the strength of gravity time dilation it is in.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Sat Apr 29 21:27:34 2023
    Jack Liu <liuedy@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:55:48?PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:


    A hermit living up on the mountain decided to go down to replenish daily necessities, including shoes.

    [snip silly straw man fairy tale. Do you really want to look like a
    complete idiot?]

    But the gravitational twin paradox is easily measurable these days,
    as shown on a hermit's portable atomic clock,
    and it agrees with the predictions of general relativity.

    No need for a mountain any longer,
    a few centimeters of altitude difference will do,

    Jan

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Sat Apr 29 12:41:04 2023
    On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 2:27:37 PM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Jack Liu <liu...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:55:48?PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:


    A hermit living up on the mountain decided to go down to replenish daily necessities, including shoes.
    [snip silly straw man fairy tale. Do you really want to look like a
    complete idiot?]

    But the gravitational twin paradox is easily measurable these days,
    as shown on a hermit's portable atomic clock,
    and it agrees with the predictions of general relativity.

    No need for a mountain any longer,
    a few centimeters of altitude difference will do,

    Jan



    My Dear Jan

    a physical device runs slower caused by any physical factor does not mean TIME gets slower.

    lot of physical factors cause physical device (among which some is called clock) run slower. That does not mean time get slower.

    as far as gravity is concern, Gravity cause some clock faster, such as pendulum clock and plasm clock ; Gravity cause some clock slower, such as atom clock. Different type of clock just behave opposite. So which clock reading is the time?

    for more detail : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VfhOL63jvB2Dmn4JCRmOx6S8Dh9nRbdC/view

    Dear Jan, use your brain to think .
    Dear Jan, don't use your brain to curse.

    Jack

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Sat Apr 29 21:51:15 2023
    Jack Liu <liuedy@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 2:27:37?PM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Jack Liu <liu...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:55:48?PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:


    A hermit living up on the mountain decided to go down to replenish daily necessities, including shoes.
    [snip silly straw man fairy tale. Do you really want to look like a complete idiot?]

    But the gravitational twin paradox is easily measurable these days,
    as shown on a hermit's portable atomic clock,
    and it agrees with the predictions of general relativity.

    No need for a mountain any longer,
    a few centimeters of altitude difference will do,

    Jan



    My Dear Jan

    a physical device runs slower caused by any physical factor does not mean TIME gets slower.

    lot of physical factors cause physical device (among which some is called clock) run slower. That does not mean time get slower.

    as far as gravity is concern, Gravity cause some clock faster, such as pendulum clock and plasm clock ; Gravity cause some clock slower, such as atom clock. Different type of clock just behave opposite. So which clock reading is the time?

    for more detail : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1VfhOL63jvB2Dmn4JCRmOx6S8Dh9nRbdC/view

    Dear Jan, use your brain to think . don't use your brain to curse.

    OK, so you opt for 'complete idiot',

    Jan
    (giving up on you)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Sat Apr 29 13:30:16 2023
    On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 2:51:18 PM UTC-5, J. J. Lodder wrote:


    Dear Jan, use your brain to think . don't use your brain to curse.

    OK, so you opt for 'complete idiot',

    Jan
    (giving up on you)

    I lost him, I miss him.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Volney@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Sat Apr 29 19:12:01 2023
    On 4/25/2023 1:24 AM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:58:45 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 06:35:40 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:

    besides gravitation, there are other factors that need to be considered.
    http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
    with leap seconds, the difference between GPS
    time and UTC is growing.

    That means UTC is stable, and GPS always need to synchronized! thanks for supporting me.

    It's actually the other way around, TAI/GPS time are stable but UTC has
    to have a leap second added or subtracted once in a while to stay in
    synch with our wobbly old earth.

    (GPS time is different from the time base on the GPS satellites
    themselves. They "tick" at a different rate to compensate for GR effects
    and their signal gets received on earth at the right frequency)

    (The janitor is the last person you want supporting your ideas! He is
    nearly always wrong & gets just about everything backwards)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack Liu@21:1/5 to Volney on Sat Apr 29 16:24:07 2023
    On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 6:12:01 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 4/25/2023 1:24 AM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:58:45 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 06:35:40 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:

    besides gravitation, there are other factors that need to be considered. >> http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
    with leap seconds, the difference between GPS
    time and UTC is growing.

    That means UTC is stable, and GPS always need to synchronized! thanks for supporting me.
    It's actually the other way around, TAI/GPS time are stable but UTC has
    to have a leap second added or subtracted once in a while to stay in
    synch with our wobbly old earth.

    (GPS time is different from the time base on the GPS satellites
    themselves. They "tick" at a different rate to compensate for GR effects
    and their signal gets received on earth at the right frequency)

    (The janitor is the last person you want supporting your ideas! He is
    nearly always wrong & gets just about everything backwards)


    The point here is not how to technically manage UTC time or GPS time.
    The point here is : we can not adjust each of satellite clock one by one by the calculation of relativity.


    The point here is : all the satellite clock must synchronized to the one standard clock in base station in the Earth.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Sat Apr 29 21:23:51 2023
    On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 4:24:09 AM UTC+5, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 6:12:01 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 4/25/2023 1:24 AM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:58:45 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 06:35:40 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:

    besides gravitation, there are other factors that need to be considered.
    http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
    with leap seconds, the difference between GPS
    time and UTC is growing.

    That means UTC is stable, and GPS always need to synchronized! thanks for supporting me.
    It's actually the other way around, TAI/GPS time are stable but UTC has
    to have a leap second added or subtracted once in a while to stay in
    synch with our wobbly old earth.

    (GPS time is different from the time base on the GPS satellites themselves. They "tick" at a different rate to compensate for GR effects and their signal gets received on earth at the right frequency)

    (The janitor is the last person you want supporting your ideas! He is nearly always wrong & gets just about everything backwards)
    The point here is not how to technically manage UTC time or GPS time.
    The point here is : we can not adjust each of satellite clock one by one by the calculation of relativity.


    The point here is : all the satellite clock must synchronized to the one standard clock in base station in the Earth.

    So, tell us, how would you synchronize the two?

    Never mind GPS, how would you use one satellite to know where you are on the equator? The satellite is geostationary somewhere above the equator. (I do not know how a geostationary satellited above the North Pole would look like)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Sat Apr 29 23:03:42 2023
    On Saturday, 29 April 2023 at 21:27:37 UTC+2, J. J. Lodder wrote:
    Jack Liu <liu...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:55:48?PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:


    A hermit living up on the mountain decided to go down to replenish daily necessities, including shoes.
    [snip silly straw man fairy tale. Do you really want to look like a
    complete idiot?]

    But the gravitational twin paradox is easily measurable these days,
    as shown on a hermit's portable atomic clock,
    and it agrees with the predictions of general relativity.

    No surprise that your delusions usually
    match themself, even when they are
    inconsistent.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Maciej Wozniak@21:1/5 to Volney on Sat Apr 29 23:04:52 2023
    On Sunday, 30 April 2023 at 01:12:01 UTC+2, Volney wrote:
    On 4/25/2023 1:24 AM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:58:45 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 06:35:40 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:

    besides gravitation, there are other factors that need to be considered. >> http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
    with leap seconds, the difference between GPS
    time and UTC is growing.

    That means UTC is stable, and GPS always need to synchronized! thanks for supporting me.
    It's actually the other way around, TAI/GPS time are stable but UTC has
    to have a leap second added or subtracted once in a while to stay in
    synch with our wobbly old earth.

    (GPS time is different from the time base on the GPS satellites
    themselves. They "tick" at a different rate to compensate for GR effects

    A lie, of course, there are no GR effects requiring
    such compensation.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Tom Roberts@21:1/5 to Jack Liu on Sun Apr 30 15:13:46 2023
    On 4/29/23 2:41 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    a physical device runs slower caused by any physical factor does not
    mean TIME gets slower.

    But that is not what is happening in GR -- a clock DOES NOT CHANGE ITS
    TICK RATE. In physics time is what clocks measure, and does not change,
    either.

    A fable:
    A physicist wants to build a laboratory, and use all the usual reference
    books, in particular the spectroscopy handbook that lists the
    frequencies of thousands of atomic transitions with 12 significant
    digits (or more when known). If they build the laboratory on earth's
    geoid, then they can use TAI as time-base for their measurements,
    because TAI is valid on the geoid. If they build the laboratory on a mountaintop, they CANNOT use TAI, because all the measurements will be
    wrong -- TAI is not valid there. So the mountaintop physicist has two
    choices: use a local atomic clock as a time-base, or use GR to correct
    TAI for the altitude.

    [I ignore the difficulties of obtaining TAI as a time-base
    in a laboratory. GPS time is vastly easier, and in practice
    is usually used, but it has the same issues.]

    The point is that the laws of physics are all local, so one must use a
    local clock, and TAI is not local. Ditto for UTC and GPS time. In our
    every day lives this is not an issue, but a physicist making timing measurements accurate to 12 digits MUST deal with it.

    Tom Roberts

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ross Finlayson@21:1/5 to Tom Roberts on Sun Apr 30 13:24:58 2023
    On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 1:14:00 PM UTC-7, Tom Roberts wrote:
    On 4/29/23 2:41 PM, Jack Liu wrote:
    a physical device runs slower caused by any physical factor does not
    mean TIME gets slower.
    But that is not what is happening in GR -- a clock DOES NOT CHANGE ITS
    TICK RATE. In physics time is what clocks measure, and does not change, either.

    A fable:
    A physicist wants to build a laboratory, and use all the usual reference books, in particular the spectroscopy handbook that lists the
    frequencies of thousands of atomic transitions with 12 significant
    digits (or more when known). If they build the laboratory on earth's
    geoid, then they can use TAI as time-base for their measurements,
    because TAI is valid on the geoid. If they build the laboratory on a mountaintop, they CANNOT use TAI, because all the measurements will be
    wrong -- TAI is not valid there. So the mountaintop physicist has two choices: use a local atomic clock as a time-base, or use GR to correct
    TAI for the altitude.

    [I ignore the difficulties of obtaining TAI as a time-base
    in a laboratory. GPS time is vastly easier, and in practice
    is usually used, but it has the same issues.]

    The point is that the laws of physics are all local, so one must use a
    local clock, and TAI is not local. Ditto for UTC and GPS time. In our
    every day lives this is not an issue, but a physicist making timing measurements accurate to 12 digits MUST deal with it.

    Tom Roberts

    You might take care to distinguish "Einstein's physicist's 'laws of nature'" and "Einstein's General Relativity's rules", and include "Einstein's 'the time'",
    and, "Einstein's spacial". (This with regards to "Einstein's 'local'".)

    Relativity has "there's no absolute motion" not "there's no absolute space-time"
    (according to Einstein).

    Hey thanks Dr. Roberts, cooler than most.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gehan.ameresekere@gmail.com@21:1/5 to gehan.am...@gmail.com on Sun Apr 30 19:16:31 2023
    On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 9:23:54 AM UTC+5, gehan.am...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, April 30, 2023 at 4:24:09 AM UTC+5, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Saturday, April 29, 2023 at 6:12:01 PM UTC-5, Volney wrote:
    On 4/25/2023 1:24 AM, Jack Liu wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 11:58:45 PM UTC-5, Maciej Wozniak wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 06:35:40 UTC+2, Jack Liu wrote:

    besides gravitation, there are other factors that need to be considered.
    http://www.leapsecond.com/java/gpsclock.htm
    with leap seconds, the difference between GPS
    time and UTC is growing.

    That means UTC is stable, and GPS always need to synchronized! thanks for supporting me.
    It's actually the other way around, TAI/GPS time are stable but UTC has to have a leap second added or subtracted once in a while to stay in synch with our wobbly old earth.

    (GPS time is different from the time base on the GPS satellites themselves. They "tick" at a different rate to compensate for GR effects and their signal gets received on earth at the right frequency)

    (The janitor is the last person you want supporting your ideas! He is nearly always wrong & gets just about everything backwards)
    The point here is not how to technically manage UTC time or GPS time.
    The point here is : we can not adjust each of satellite clock one by one by the calculation of relativity.


    The point here is : all the satellite clock must synchronized to the one standard clock in base station in the Earth.
    So, tell us, how would you synchronize the two?

    Never mind GPS, how would you use one satellite to know where you are on the equator? The satellite is geostationary somewhere above the equator. (I do not know how a geostationary satellited above the North Pole would look like)

    SRT corrections for moving points on the Earth at various latitudes is a nightmare. GRT maybe not.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)