Water Electrolysis compilation for proving H4O, not H2O

Archimedes Plutonium's profile photo
Archimedes Plutonium<plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com>
Aug 21, 2023, 4:49:07 PM (9 hours ago)



to Plutonium Atom Universe
Reduction:: 2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) at cathode Oxidation:: 2H2O(liquid) ----> O2(gas) + 4H+(aqueous) + 4monopole- at anode

My fear is on how to weigh the gases collecting in the test tubes, without contaminating the tubes upon weighing for mass. And this is probably why no-one in physics or chemistry ever thought to weigh the masses in atomic units for if AP is correct the
hydrogen is 1/4 the oxygen in atomic mass units. If dullard Jim and the Mainstream is correct, the hydrogen is 1/8 of the oxygen in amu.

Why does AP claim water must be H4O and the hydrogen atom is actually H2 and not H alone?? Because AP believes all science is Symmetrical, and that a proton with muon inside doing the Faraday law without at least 1 neutron working as a capacitor is Anti-
symmetry. Thus, when H and H combine, one of the proton+muon inside the proton turns into a neutron-like capacitor for the other H.

And the Water Electrolysis Experiment is the perfect experiment to prove Water is H4O. It is as if all water is heavy water. And that deuterium is simply a H2 where the one H is fully a neutron. Nature does not find H all alone, not even in the Sun is
the hydrogen H but rather H2 for H2 is Atomic Hydrogen.

Jim is both too dumb&lazy to ever look things up before opening big dumb mouth.

It is time for AP to put to work all the new chemistry textbooks I bought some years back.

The first one has an excellent account.

CHEMISTRY, Wilbraham, Staley, Matta, Waterman, 2008, page 680 gives an excellent picture and accounting what goes on in Water electrolysis.

Reduction:: 2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) at cathode Oxidation:: 2H2O(liquid) ----> O2(gas) + 4H+(aqueous) + 4monopole- at anode

Poor Jim seems to be stuck back at the ideal gas laws and not yet arrived at electrochemistry.

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 4:01:10 PM UTC-5, Jim Pennino wrote:

Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium....@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip 529 lines of repeated nonsense>

Nothing left and AP still does not understand what pV = nRT means.

Archimedes Plutonium's profile photo
Archimedes Plutonium<plutonium.archimedes@gmail.com>
2:18 AM (now)



to Plutonium Atom Universe
Now, Oxtoby & Nachtrieb PRINCIPLES OF MODERN CHEMISTRY, 2nd edition, 1990, page 387, do something different for they have H3O in cathode.

2H3O+(aq) + 2monopole- ---> H2(g) + 2H2O(liq) cathode
3H2O(liq) ------> 1/2 O2 (g) + 2H3O+ (aq) + 2monopole- anode

H2O (liq) ------> H2 (g) + 1/2 O2 (g)

Let me go back and fill in what the other textbook had.

CHEMISTRY, Wilbraham, Staley, Matta, Waterman, 2008, page 680 gives an excellent picture and accounting what goes on in Water electrolysis.

Reduction:: 2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) at cathode Oxidation:: 2H2O(liquid) ----> O2(gas) + 4H+(aqueous) + 4monopole- at anode

Overall cell reaction: 6H2O (liq) ------> 2H2(g) + O2 (g) + 4H+ (aq) + 4OH- (aq)

I am trying to digest on how these different authors can vary so much in reactions, the H3O.

AP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

CHEM ONE Waser, Trueblood, Knobler, 2nd edition, 1980 does a poor job on Water electrolysis, not even giving the reactions, as far as I could see.

CHEMISTRY: The Central Science, Brown, LeMay, Bursten, 5th edition, 1991, on page 727, gives the reactions of Water electrolysis.

2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) where E = -0.83 V 2H2O(liquid) ----> 4H+(aqueous) + O2 (g) + 4monopole- E = -1.23 V

Brown,LeMay, Bursten include salt NaCl reaction along with water H2O.

And the authors include some ideas that point to the conclusion that water is truly H4O and not that of H2O.

--- quoting Brown, LeMay, Bursten ---

These standard oxidation potentials are not greatly different, but they do suggest that H2O should be oxidized more readily than Cl-. However, the actual voltage required for a reaction is sometimes much greater than the theoretical voltage based on the
electrode potentials. The additional voltage required to cause electrolysis is called the overvoltage.
--- end quoting ---

What AP suspects is that the additional voltage is to separate the H4 from H4O that is the true formula of water, not H2O. And this is the cause of the anomalous theory value.

AP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 2:18:14 AM UTC-5 Archimedes Plutonium wrote: Now, Oxtoby & Nachtrieb PRINCIPLES OF MODERN CHEMISTRY, 2nd edition, 1990, page 387, do something different for they have H3O in cathode.

2H3O+(aq) + 2monopole- ---> H2(g) + 2H2O(liq) cathode
3H2O(liq) ------> 1/2 O2 (g) + 2H3O+ (aq) + 2monopole- anode

I am worried that Oxtoby & Nachtrieb made an error with their H3O on page 386, but I am in no position to evaluate this as of yet.

For it draws on a geometry of what is going on in Electrolysis.

A geometry like the cover of my 250th book of science.

TEACHING TRUE CHEMISTRY; H2 is the hydrogen Atom and water is H4O, not H2O// Chemistry

by Archimedes Plutonium

Last revision was August 2023. And this is AP's 250th published book of science.

Prologue: This textbook is 1/2 research history and 1/2 factual textbook combined as one textbook. For many of the experiments described here-in have not yet been performed, such as water is really H4O not H2O. Written in a style of history research with
date-time markers, and fact telling. And there are no problem sets. This book is intended for 1st year college. Until I include problem sets and exercises, I leave it to the professor and instructor to provide such. And also, chemistry is hugely a
laboratory science, even more so than physics, so a first year college student in the lab to test whether Water is really H4O and not H2O is mighty educational.

Preface: This is my 250th book of science, and the first of my textbooks on Teaching True Chemistry. I have completed the Teaching True Physics and the Teaching True Mathematics textbook series. But had not yet started on a Teaching True Chemistry
textbook series. What got me started on this project is the fact that no chemistry textbook had the correct formula for water which is actually H4O and not H2O. Leaving the true formula for hydroxyl groups as H2O and not OH. But none of this is possible
in Old Chemistry, Old Physics where they had do-nothing subatomic particles that sit around and do nothing or go whizzing around the outside of balls in a nucleus, in a mindless circling. Once every subatomic particle has a job, task, function, then
water cannot be H2O but rather H4O. And a hydrogen atom cannot be H alone but is actually H2. H2 is not a molecule of hydrogen but a full fledged Atom, a single atom of hydrogen.

Cover Picture: Sorry for the crude sketch work but chemistry and physics students are going to have to learn to make such sketches in a minute or less. Just as they make Lewis diagrams or ball & stick diagrams. My 4-5 minute sketch-work of the Water
molecule H4O plus the subatomic particle H, and the hydrogen atom H2. Showing how one H is a proton torus with muon inside (blue color) doing the Faraday law. Protons are toruses with many windings. Protons are the coils in Faraday law while muons are
the bar magnets. Neutrons are the capacitors as parallel plates, the outer skin cover of atoms.

AP, King of Science, especially Physics & Logic

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Alright, let me get started on the most important ideas of Electrolysis, the geometry explanation, which is the hardest to do.

So far in physics, chemistry history of electrolysis we have the Algebra, and even the algebra is varying from one author to another author.

If I can perfect the Geometry, I can then correct the true Algebra.

Let me symbolize Hydrogen Atom as H2 by the geometry of H, the letter H.

So no atom exists with just a proton + muon, for they have no neutron capacitor to store the Faraday law electricity by muon thrusting through proton.

In this H, the hydrogen atom the - is the proton with muon inside the torus. The two sides of H, the | and | represent one of the proton+muon as parallel plate capacitor.

So in Nature, no H all alone exists, it exists as H2 where one of the H becomes a neutron. Thus Water is H4O.

And let me represent oxygen as O.

So Water as H4O looks like this

......O
...H.....H

Keep in mind that H is H2 in the diagram above.

So, when a electric current, a magnetic monopole of 0.5MeV strikes a H, then how does the monopole dislodge the H from O ???

Does the monopole dislodge one of the parallel plates leaving a |- and a | behind stuck to O??

Does the magnetic monople dislodge the entire H2 as represented by H, from the O??

Here I think the Faraday law on Electrolysis answers some of these questions.

AP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

CHEMISTRY, Wilbraham, Staley, Matta, Waterman, 2008, page 680 gives an excellent picture and accounting what goes on in Water electrolysis.

Reduction:: 2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) at cathode Oxidation:: 2H2O(liquid) ----> O2(gas) + 4H+(aqueous) + 4monopole- at anode

Alright, easy to see that the H2(gas) comes off filling the one test tube and the 2OH-(aqueous) remain in solution.

Difficult to explain why the 4H+ does not fill the anode test tube along with O2 gas. What in fact is 4H+ (aqueous). Is it purely some algebra concoction to make the equation balanced???

Is there a way of checking whether some hydrogen gas is among the anode test tube??

I may regret getting involved with this.

AP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 4:09:23 AM UTC-4, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

CHEMISTRY, Wilbraham, Staley, Matta, Waterman, 2008, page 680 gives an excellent picture and accounting what goes on in Water electrolysis.
Reduction:: 2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) at cathode
Oxidation:: 2H2O(liquid) ----> O2(gas) + 4H+(aqueous) + 4monopole- at anode Alright, easy to see that the H2(gas) comes off filling the one test tube and the 2OH-(aqueous) remain in solution.

Difficult to explain why the 4H+ does not fill the anode test tube along with O2 gas. What in fact is 4H+ (aqueous). Is it purely some algebra concoction to make the equation balanced???

Is there a way of checking whether some hydrogen gas is among the anode test tube??

I may regret getting involved with this.

AP

Wonderful topic.
If efficiency of electrolysis will not exceed say 80 percent, then we should ask whether byproducts are available that would make the generation more economical. Suppose OCO were introduced as well such that a roll of carbon fiber was extruding out the
reaction, and a tank of oxygen to boot. Most energetic processes actually work this way: they give off energy in another spectrum from the one under study. Typically a more refined form. If three products are generated then can the efficiency for the
hydrogen production be raised? Arguably it can, so long as you aren't claiming 100 percent efficiency on the others. In effect the question is how much heat is generated. The less heat the better. This then automatically implies by-products, thence
finding variation of those by-products as a methodology. Who knows what sort of goodies could come of it. Perhaps we'll be growing our next carbon shell car beneath our PV array next to the hydrogen super-store.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 9:14:10 AM UTC-4, Timothy Golden wrote:

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 4:09:23 AM UTC-4, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

CHEMISTRY, Wilbraham, Staley, Matta, Waterman, 2008, page 680 gives an excellent picture and accounting what goes on in Water electrolysis.
Reduction:: 2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) at cathode
Oxidation:: 2H2O(liquid) ----> O2(gas) + 4H+(aqueous) + 4monopole- at anode
Alright, easy to see that the H2(gas) comes off filling the one test tube and the 2OH-(aqueous) remain in solution.

Difficult to explain why the 4H+ does not fill the anode test tube along with O2 gas. What in fact is 4H+ (aqueous). Is it purely some algebra concoction to make the equation balanced???

Is there a way of checking whether some hydrogen gas is among the anode test tube??

I may regret getting involved with this.

AP

Wonderful topic.
If efficiency of electrolysis will not exceed say 80 percent, then we should ask whether byproducts are available that would make the generation more economical. Suppose OCO were introduced as well such that a roll of carbon fiber was extruding out the

reaction, and a tank of oxygen to boot. Most energetic processes actually work this way: they give off energy in another spectrum from the one under study. Typically a more refined form. If three products are generated then can the efficiency for the
hydrogen production be raised? Arguably it can, so long as you aren't claiming 100 percent efficiency on the others. In effect the question is how much heat is generated. The less heat the better. This then automatically implies by-products, thence
finding variation of those by-products as a methodology. Who knows what sort of goodies could come of it. Perhaps we'll be growing our next carbon shell car beneath our PV array next to the hydrogen super-store.

Now that the nuclear structure of platinum is known, catalysts in general
can be improved. The hook shape of a line of protons in Pt is believed to
be the source of an itinerant proton current that flows from Pt to a target molecule, and back to the Pt hook. Vanadium also has a hook of protons.
Al

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

So here, I want to weigh the mass of the oxygen and hydrogen test tubes to prove either H4O or to prove the mainstream's H2O. Personally I feel the experiments favor AP and it turns out the hydrogen is 1/4 in atomic mass units per oxygen. If Mainstream
is correct, it should be 1/8.

AP is driven by Symmetry. The same symmetry that drove Dirac to the magnetic monopole. A atom cannot exist without a capacitor, and so all atoms have at least one neutron. That means H2 is not a molecule but a atom of hydrogen, and one of the protons
acts like a neutron.

But in researching Electrolysis of Water, there are vast swathes of that science murky and clouded in formulas.

I would bet that not even Asimov in all his clear writings could give an account of what is going on in Water electrolysis. And I certainly worry about the education system in freshman College teaching water electrolysis, with never a teacher hand
walking what 2 molecules of water undergo in electrolysis. Leaving students only with a picture and several equations.

Did Asimov take 2 molecules of H2O and explain what happens to them as they are separated of hydrogen and oxygen?? I doubt it. Leaving college students paniced because no teacher can make a clear teaching of what is going on.

So not only did Old Chemistry forget to weigh for mass of the oxygen test tube and the hydrogen test tube. But Old Chemistry, never verified the test tubes were 100% pure oxygen and 100% pure hydrogen. Or if each test tube ends up being a mixture of both.

AP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I probably will end up regretting of ever having wandered over here. For there is something deeply wrong in Old Chemistry's water electrolysis. Notice for instance most chemists have 2H2O, while Oxtoby and Nachtrieb felt they had to start with 2H3O.

If Water Electrolysis is completely known, for sure, all the formulas and equations should be the same.

I am having enormous difficulty in seeing how some oxygen gas does not mix with the hydrogen test tube, and on the other side, how some hydrogen gas does not go up and enter the oxygen test tube. I find it difficult to see that each test tube is pure
oxygen or pure hydrogen.

So on the hydrogen test tube, when you strip the hydrogen from H2O, how is that oxygen atom escape from not going up into the hydrogen test tube? And on the other side, as you form O2 molecules in that test tube, how is it that no hydrogen stripped from
the O atom makes its way up into the oxygen test tube and result in a mixture?

Is the salt electrolyte what prevents the mixing?

So, in all the electrolysis experiments, has there been so proof testing that the test tubes are 100% pure of either oxygen or hydrogen?? And none having a mixture??


On Tuesday, August 22, 2023 at 2:20:45 AM UTC-5, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

Water Electrolysis compilation for proving H4O, not H2O

Archimedes Plutonium's profile photo
Archimedes Plutonium<plutonium....@gmail.com>
Aug 21, 2023, 4:49:07 PM (9 hours ago)



to Plutonium Atom Universe
Reduction:: 2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) at cathode
Oxidation:: 2H2O(liquid) ----> O2(gas) + 4H+(aqueous) + 4monopole- at anode

My fear is on how to weigh the gases collecting in the test tubes, without contaminating the tubes upon weighing for mass. And this is probably why no-one in physics or chemistry ever thought to weigh the masses in atomic units for if AP is correct the

hydrogen is 1/4 the oxygen in atomic mass units. If dullard Jim and the Mainstream is correct, the hydrogen is 1/8 of the oxygen in amu.

Why does AP claim water must be H4O and the hydrogen atom is actually H2 and not H alone?? Because AP believes all science is Symmetrical, and that a proton with muon inside doing the Faraday law without at least 1 neutron working as a capacitor is

Anti-symmetry. Thus, when H and H combine, one of the proton+muon inside the proton turns into a neutron-like capacitor for the other H.

And the Water Electrolysis Experiment is the perfect experiment to prove Water is H4O. It is as if all water is heavy water. And that deuterium is simply a H2 where the one H is fully a neutron. Nature does not find H all alone, not even in the Sun is

the hydrogen H but rather H2 for H2 is Atomic Hydrogen.

Jim is both too dumb&lazy to ever look things up before opening big dumb mouth.

It is time for AP to put to work all the new chemistry textbooks I bought some years back.

The first one has an excellent account.

CHEMISTRY, Wilbraham, Staley, Matta, Waterman, 2008, page 680 gives an excellent picture and accounting what goes on in Water electrolysis.

Reduction:: 2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) at cathode
Oxidation:: 2H2O(liquid) ----> O2(gas) + 4H+(aqueous) + 4monopole- at anode

Poor Jim seems to be stuck back at the ideal gas laws and not yet arrived at electrochemistry.

On Monday, August 21, 2023 at 4:01:10 PM UTC-5, Jim Pennino wrote:

Archimedes Plutonium <plutonium....@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip 529 lines of repeated nonsense>

Nothing left and AP still does not understand what pV = nRT means.

Archimedes Plutonium's profile photo
Archimedes Plutonium<plutonium....@gmail.com>
2:18 AM (now)



to Plutonium Atom Universe
Now, Oxtoby & Nachtrieb PRINCIPLES OF MODERN CHEMISTRY, 2nd edition, 1990, page 387, do something different for they have H3O in cathode.

2H3O+(aq) + 2monopole- ---> H2(g) + 2H2O(liq) cathode
3H2O(liq) ------> 1/2 O2 (g) + 2H3O+ (aq) + 2monopole- anode

H2O (liq) ------> H2 (g) + 1/2 O2 (g)

Let me go back and fill in what the other textbook had.

CHEMISTRY, Wilbraham, Staley, Matta, Waterman, 2008, page 680 gives an excellent picture and accounting what goes on in Water electrolysis.

Reduction:: 2H2O(liquid) + 2monopoles- ---> H2(gas) + 2OH- (aqueous) at cathode
Oxidation:: 2H2O(liquid) ----> O2(gas) + 4H+(aqueous) + 4monopole- at anode

Overall cell reaction: 6H2O (liq) ------> 2H2(g) + O2 (g) + 4H+ (aq) + 4OH- (aq)

I am trying to digest on how these different authors can vary so much in reactions, the H3O.

AP

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:07:37 PM UTC-4, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

So here, I want to weigh the mass of the oxygen and hydrogen test tubes to prove either H4O or to prove the mainstream's H2O. Personally I feel the experiments favor AP and it turns out the hydrogen is 1/4 in atomic mass units per oxygen. If Mainstream

is correct, it should be 1/8.

AP is driven by Symmetry. The same symmetry that drove Dirac to the magnetic monopole. A atom cannot exist without a capacitor, and so all atoms have at least one neutron. That means H2 is not a molecule but a atom of hydrogen, and one of the protons

acts like a neutron.

But in researching Electrolysis of Water, there are vast swathes of that science murky and clouded in formulas.

I would bet that not even Asimov in all his clear writings could give an account of what is going on in Water electrolysis. And I certainly worry about the education system in freshman College teaching water electrolysis, with never a teacher hand

walking what 2 molecules of water undergo in electrolysis. Leaving students only with a picture and several equations.

Did Asimov take 2 molecules of H2O and explain what happens to them as they are separated of hydrogen and oxygen?? I doubt it. Leaving college students paniced because no teacher can make a clear teaching of what is going on.

So not only did Old Chemistry forget to weigh for mass of the oxygen test tube and the hydrogen test tube. But Old Chemistry, never verified the test tubes were 100% pure oxygen and 100% pure hydrogen. Or if each test tube ends up being a mixture of

both.

AP

Isn't it true that the electrode is acting on H1, and upon 2H1 turning to 1H2 then the electrical action no longer works? Also isn't this some of the loss in efficiency? Could some of your answer be in the thermodynamics? The 1H2 being hot? If you have
not accounted for the heat then you have not done the electrolysis fully, because it is only something like 20% efficient.

As you mention capacitance, perhaps this could become ground for some sort of supercapacitor: holding the H as H1.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, August 25, 2023 at 9:57:10 AM UTC-4, Timothy Golden wrote:

On Wednesday, August 23, 2023 at 12:07:37 PM UTC-4, Archimedes Plutonium wrote:

So here, I want to weigh the mass of the oxygen and hydrogen test tubes to prove either H4O or to prove the mainstream's H2O. Personally I feel the experiments favor AP and it turns out the hydrogen is 1/4 in atomic mass units per oxygen. If

Mainstream is correct, it should be 1/8.

AP is driven by Symmetry. The same symmetry that drove Dirac to the magnetic monopole. A atom cannot exist without a capacitor, and so all atoms have at least one neutron. That means H2 is not a molecule but a atom of hydrogen, and one of the protons

acts like a neutron.

But in researching Electrolysis of Water, there are vast swathes of that science murky and clouded in formulas.

I would bet that not even Asimov in all his clear writings could give an account of what is going on in Water electrolysis. And I certainly worry about the education system in freshman College teaching water electrolysis, with never a teacher hand

walking what 2 molecules of water undergo in electrolysis. Leaving students only with a picture and several equations.

Did Asimov take 2 molecules of H2O and explain what happens to them as they are separated of hydrogen and oxygen?? I doubt it. Leaving college students paniced because no teacher can make a clear teaching of what is going on.

So not only did Old Chemistry forget to weigh for mass of the oxygen test tube and the hydrogen test tube. But Old Chemistry, never verified the test tubes were 100% pure oxygen and 100% pure hydrogen. Or if each test tube ends up being a mixture of

both.

AP

Isn't it true that the electrode is acting on H1, and upon 2H1 turning to 1H2 then the electrical action no longer works? Also isn't this some of the loss in efficiency? Could some of your answer be in the thermodynamics? The 1H2 being hot? If you have

not accounted for the heat then you have not done the electrolysis fully, because it is only something like 20% efficient.

As you mention capacitance, perhaps this could become ground for some sort of supercapacitor: holding the H as H1.

http://www.helmeth.eu/index.php/technologies/high-temperature-electrolysis-cell-soec

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)