• Physics bitten by reverse Alan Sokal hoax? ... revisited

    From Rock Brentwood@21:1/5 to John Baez on Tue Jan 4 13:37:09 2022
    This (meaning: the whole affair that this posting was a small part of)
    has come to my attention, only now, because the twins involved in it
    have died together on the same day yesterday.

    On Wednesday, October 23, 2002 at 11:43:50 PM UTC-5, John Baez wrote:
    ... I hear that two brothers have managed to publish 3 meaningless
    papers in physics journals as a hoax - and even get Ph.D. degrees
    in physics from Bourgogne University in the process!

    on the "reverse Sokal" affair (as Baez elsewhere called it)
    that may or may not have been a hoax or may have been for real,
    because apparently nobody could make any sense out of what they
    were trying to say.

    So, I'm going to take a closer look at this here and provide some
    perspective on the issues underlying the matters raised by them,
    since it concerns matters that are of interest to me.

    It is also an issue that is coming to a head with the recent
    launch of the Webb telescope.

    The theses are available in PDF format online, at least for now:
    Igor Bogdanov
    ETAT TOPOLOGIQUE DE L'ESPACE TEMPS A ECHELLE 0

    currently here:
    https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00001503v1/document

    FLUCTUATIONS QUANTIQUES DE LA SIGNATURE DE LA METRIQUE
    A L'ECHELLE DE PLANCK

    currently here:
    https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00001502/document

    Other publications:
    Topological field theory of the initial singularity of spacetime,
    Classical and Quantum Gravity 18 (2001), 4341-4372.
    Grichka Bogdanov and Igor Bogdanov,
    Spacetime Metric and the KMS Condition at the Planck Scale,
    Annals of Physics, 295 (2002), 90-97.
    Grichka Bogdanov and Igor Bogdanov,
    KMS space-time at the Planck scale,
    Nuovo Cimento, 117B (2002) 417-424.
    Igor Bogdanov,
    Topological origin of inertia,
    Czechoslovak Journal of Physics, 51 (2001), 1153-1236.

    1. Igor
    Igor's thesis asserts that the Big Bang is a zero-size singularity
    involving a signature change from (++++) to (+++-) or (---+), depending
    on which convention is used.

    The FRW[L] (or "Big Bang") metrics are generally of the form

    ds^2 = dt^2 - A(t) (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)

    for the proper time (s), where A(t) > 0 for t > 0 and A(t) -> 0 as t -> 0, where the time (t) is set to 0 at the Big Bang. Variations on this allow
    for the spatial geometry to be curved rather than 3D Euclidean (and even
    more general versions may even allow for it to be a manifold for a 3D
    Lie algebra - i.e. the root of the Bianchi classification.)

    1A. What Is "Zero Size"?

    There is actually an ambiguity here when one says "zero size". Does that
    mean that the entire geometry is 0-dimensional at t = 0 or 3-dimensional
    but with metric distances of 0 along the hypersurface?

    This is an ambiguity that leads to misrepresentations and false
    visualizations, that unfortunately pop science presentations are replete
    with - that many professional physicists have grown up on and which have
    been internalized in their own language and visualizations!

    In fact, it is not consistent to take the geometry as 0D, unless the
    function A(t) satisfies certain conditions on its growth. In particular,
    if A(t) does not grow fast enough (e.g. A(t) ~ t^n for powers n less
    than 2), then the light cones different spacetime points land on the
    t = 0 surface at different 3D subsurfaces.

    The limiting case n = 2 is also the threshold for the weak energy
    condition, and it is only for n >= 2 that the light cones splay out to
    spatial infinity as t -> 0. You can't have a 0D geometry at t = 0,
    unless every single point at the t = 0 hypersurface is contained in the
    causal past, as they are all being identified as one and the same point.

    Otherwise, it is a 3D surface. The most interesting feature of it is
    that it yields a one-to-one correspondence with the spacetime points on
    the t > 0 sector of the geometry - each sphere on the 3D surface is the intersection of a past light cone coming from a unique spacetime point.

    1B. What Is The "Singularity"?

    The nature of the "singularity" is that the metric goes from signature
    (+---) to (+000). At each point, (x,y,z,t), where t > 0, the light cone
    is given by the equation
    (dx/dt)^2 + (dy/dt)^2 + (dz/dt)^2 = 1/A(t)
    so that the local light speed is root(1/A(t)). As long as A(t) > 0,
    this is locally Minkowski and the kinematic group in the region of the
    point (x,y,z,t) is Poincare'.

    As t -> 0, if A(t) -> 0, then the metric reduces to rank 1 ... and the
    inverse metric (up to conformal factor) to rank 3. This is actually the characteristic property of a Newton-Cartan geometry. In effect, light
    speed goes to infinity at time 0; the light cones become flattened out
    with the t = 0 surface being an envelope of them all.

    This puts proper perspective on what's going on with "scale". Since
    distances in Minkowski geometry are measured in light speed units,
    if light speed goes to infinity, then you have an extreme case of the
    King's Thumb Problem - distances measured in light speed units will
    go to 0.

    But that is not the same thing as saying that space, itself, goes to
    a 0D point! It is *still* a 3D surface at t = 0, for virtually any
    function A(t) that can be considered (again: the exceptional case being
    if A(t) ~ t^2).

    In other words: the spatial metric and temporal metric become
    decoupled as t -> 0, because their conversion factor has become
    infinte.

    I parodied this situation, here, a long time ago. If you look back in
    the s.p.r. archives, you'll find "The Untold Story Of Genesis", where
    I alluded to this.

    So, it is at this point that we can put the following in perspective:

    Here's the abstract of Igor Bogdanov's thesis:
    We propose in this research a new solution regarding the existence
    and the content of the initial spacetime singularity. In the context
    of topological field theory we consider that the initial singularity
    of space-time corresponds to a zero size singular gravitational instanton characterized by a Riemannian metric configuration (++++) in dimension
    D = 4. Connected with some unexpected topological data corresponding
    to the zero scale of space-time, the initial singularity is thus not considered in terms of divergences of physical fields but can be resolved
    in the frame of topological field theory.

    It all hinges on the question: what is "zero size" supposed to be here?

    single-point 0D?
    or
    3D with zero-metric but distinct points?

    They didn't make this crystal clear. But to their credit: neither did any
    of you. So, it's not really their problem, but all of your problem, collectively. And it is because that ambiguity was left unnoticed and unchecked, that their discussion passed through the literature. It's not
    a flaw in the review process, but a flaw in the reviewers' frame of mind
    by virtue of their having been imbued with the widely-propagated, but misleading (and false) "Big Bang Means All Of Space Contracts To A
    Single Point" image that pervades the folklore.

    So, in all the places where you see this (as per Baez' description):
    Then it is suggested that the "zero scale singularity" can be understood
    in terms of topological invariants,

    you have to ask the same thing: what is "zero scale"?

    1C. The Transition And Geodesic Completeness

    The nature of the t = 0 envelope depends on the function A(t), itself.
    For metrics that are asymptotically radiation dominant as t -> 0, it goes
    as A(t) ~ t^1. For such metrics, there is (indeed) a smooth transition
    over from signature (+---) to (++++) at time 0, with the boundary
    case at t = 0 (+000) being the rank 1 metric typical of a Newton-Cartan geometry.

    For t < 0, one has a locally Euclidean geometry, the kinmetic group
    being that for the 4D Euclidean geometry; while at t = 0, it reduces to
    the Galilei group - and its central extension, the Bargmann group.

    The case A(t) ~ t^1 for t ~ 0 is of special interest, because of a
    property it has - widely neglected and rarely (if ever) mentioned -
    that totally blows open folklore on pseudo-Riemannian geometries.
    It's not a Riemannian or pseudo-Riemannian geometry at all, because of
    the signature change, so one should not expect familiar theorems
    learned on those contexts to be true.

    The light cones don't just flatten out at t = 0, they reverse! Past
    light cones have the shape of a pointed Mexican hat. They splay out,
    back into the future direction. The generators of the cones are
    parabolic along the t = 0 surface.

    Past-directed timelike geodesics, almost all, reflect off the t = 0
    surface as catenary curves and go back toward the future. This
    includes geodesics that can intersect the worldline of a given object
    at a given time, reflect back off the t = 0 surface and intersect the
    future of that object at a future point.

    The sole exceptions are the timelike geodesics associated with the
    co-moving frame. They pass through the t = 0 surface over into the
    t < 0 sector.

    Overall, the geometry is GEODESICALLY COMPLETE - notwithstanding the
    metric singularity! The irregularity of the metric shows up, not by
    a rupture of the geodesics, but by the emergence of a distinctly
    non-Riemannian property on the t = 0 surface:

    Uniqueness Of Geodesics breaks down:
    Along the t = 0 surface: a given point and given direction, laying
    within the surface, does not uniquely determine a geodesic.

    1D. Signature-Changing Geometries As Lie Bundles

    Now we can look at another part of the description:

    We propose hereafter that the signature of the Space-Time metric
    (+++-) is not anymore frozen at the Planck scale and presents quantum fluctuations (++++/-) until 0 scale where it becomes Euclidean (++++).
    (i) At the albraic level we suggest an oscillation path (3,1) (4,0)
    excluding (2,2).

    The type of geometry I alluded to above (and which is also alluded to here)
    has not been much studied. Yes, there is literature on signature-changing geometries, but generally they don't focus on what happens to the local kinematic group. What you're talking about, here, is a type of geometry
    in which different points may have different Lie algebras associated with
    them - which is what we call a Lie Bundle.

    You need a framework, like this, to be able to talk about continuous transitions between different signatures.

    Lie Bundles have been considered in the literature, but I'm not aware of
    who works with them for signature-changing cosmologies. To model the Big
    Bang, if you take the FRW metric seriously all the way down to time 0,
    requires such a geometry, where the t -> 0 threshold provides some kind
    of physical realization for the passage of the Poincare' group (and
    actually, for an extension of it, as I'm about to describe below) to the Bargmann group, and then on over at t < 0 to the Euclid 4D group.

    1E. "Relativistic" Bargmann Geometries and 5D Cosmologies

    To see exactly what this is, consider the Minkowski metric, which we
    write as a metric for proper time (s):

    ds^2 = dt^2 - (1/c)^2 (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2).

    Literally throw in the proper time as an extra coordinate and make this
    a 5-dimensional geometry with a 5D metric and constraint:

    ds^2 - dt^2 + (1/c)^2 (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2) = 0.

    Now, rewrite it in terms of time dilation, but tack it up an order of
    c^2:

    u = c^2 (s - t).

    Why the extra factor? Because when you substitute into the line element
    you get a metric that looks like this ... after removing a constant
    conformal factor:

    dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 + 2 dt du + (1/c)^2 du^2 = 0.

    That is, in fact, the relativistic version of what is already known as
    the Bargmann Geometry, whose metric has the form:

    dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 + 2 dt du = 0

    which, in turn, is the limiting case as (1/c)^2 -> 0 of the above
    geometry, which (for lack of a better term) we could just call the "relativistic" Bargmann geometry.

    When the light cone constaint is applied to the metric, then the
    proper time can be expressed in terms of u as

    s = t + (1/c)^2 u

    and, as expected, in the non-relativistic limit s and t coincide.

    The Bargmann group is the symmetry group that possesses the following
    two invariants:

    dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 + 2 dt du
    dt

    By comparison, the relativistic version of this would be a symmetry
    group that leaves the corresponding deformations of these two invariants

    dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 + 2 dt du + (1/c)^2 du^2
    dt + (1/c)^2 du

    fixed. It is, in fact, just the Poincare' group ... but with a twist:
    it has an additional, 11th generator. It's a (trivial) central extension
    of Poincare'.

    For the corresponding representation theory, the extra generator gives
    you an additional degree of freedom that shows up as an additive term
    for the mass and energy. Among other things, the extension provides
    extra room to be able to talk about zero point energy.

    The Bargmann geometry (both relativistic and non-relativitic) has
    a 4+1 signature. In the relativistic case, it reduces to 3+1 when you
    impose the light cone condition on the metric

    dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 + 2 dt du + (1/c)^2 du^2 = 0.

    Doing so removes a degree of freedom that, in effect, eliminates the
    11th generator.

    But to have a consistent passage from the t > 0 sector of a space-time
    geometry with signature change to the t < 0 sector, where the t = 0
    boundary is that for a (rank 1 metric + rank 3 dual metric up to
    conformal equivalence) requires keeping in the 11th generator, if you
    also want to make the transition for the Lie Bundle continuous.

    There are actually quite a few publications on 5D cosmologies, and in
    some cases you may recognize the underlying 5D geometry as being that
    for a curved space-time version of the relativistic Bargmann geometry.

    The passage to the Euclid 4D group may be obtained by generalizing
    the extra factor (0 versus (1/c)^2) into a deformation parameters
    and rewriting the invariants as:

    dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 + 2 dt du + alpha du^2
    dt + alpha du

    The case alpha = 0 yields the Bargmann group. The other cases are
    deformations of it, with non-zero alpha. If alpha > 0, it is the
    (trivially) central extended Poincare' group, and if alpha < 0, it
    is a trivial central extension of the Euclid 4D group.

    I don't know if anyone working with 5D cosmology uses this as a way
    to also model or account for signature change. But one of the more
    interesting properties is that it has two senses of time in it:

    the coordinate time (t)

    and

    the proper time (s), which is an invariant.

    They can be combined into a single "complex" time t + is, and then the
    metrics - except for the alpha = 0 case - could be rewritten as the
    real part of a metric that has complex time.

    It might, then, be possible to associate s with thermal time.

    In light of what I just described, it's interesting to see this passage:

    We built the quotient topological space describing
    the superposition of the Lorentzian and the Riemanian metrics. In
    terms of quantum groups we evidence a relation between q-deformation
    and deformation of the signature. We have obtained a new algebraic construction (a new cocycle bicrossproducts by twisting) which allowed
    us to unify the Lorentzian and the Euclidean signatures within a
    unique quantum group structure.

    But I strongly disagree with the notion of any singularity being "zero
    scale" or "0-size" as here:

    The initial singularity must be considered as
    a singular 0-size gravitational instanton.

    1F. The Initial Hypersurface: Hawking vs. Mansouri & Junction Conditions

    There's actually a lot more I wanted to talk about here, both for Igor
    and his twin's thesis, but I may have to defer the rest for a later time,
    apart from a few brief closing observations.

    Hawking use of complex time and signature change - as best I understand
    it - was meant to be a technical fix devoid of physical content, used
    to just "get the job done". But one of the most important properties of
    his "fix" is that he had a discontinuous transition at t = 0. The
    geometry did NOT pass through a Newton-Cartan intermediate phase, but
    rather: the t = 0 surface was spacelike. So, it lay firmly on the
    (+---) side of the geometry.

    Others, like Mansouri, have adopted a different starting point, asserting
    that the t = 0 hypersurface is (indeed) a null surface ... i.e. an
    envelope of light cones; thereby effectively asserting c -> infinity as
    t -> 0. Though they don't call the t = 0 slice an equal-time slice of Newton-Cartann geometry, that's what it is.

    In important property of this (or any other interface, like Hawking's)
    is that it entains the kind of consistency conditions known in the
    literature as Junction Conditions. These are the extra conditions
    required to be able to pair off the (+---) Lorentzian geometry in
    the t > 0 sector with the (++++) locally-Euclidean-4D geometry in the
    t < 0 sector.

    One of the most important ones that comes out of Mansouri's work is
    the prediction of inflation, as a consequence of having the initial
    t = 0 hypersurface being null.

    If I have more time, I'll get to the "Topological Origin of Inertia"
    thesis and discuss the issues surrounding this.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phillip Helbig (undress to reply@21:1/5 to Rock Brentwood on Tue Jan 4 11:06:48 2022
    In article <20f6fcd3-84ec-4fcf-ad71-d6295c54a622n@googlegroups.com>,
    Rock Brentwood <rockbrentwood@gmail.com> writes:

    This (meaning: the whole affair that this posting was a small part of)
    has come to my attention, only now, because the twins involved in it
    have died together on the same day yesterday.

    On Wednesday, October 23, 2002 at 11:43:50 PM UTC-5, John Baez wrote:
    ... I hear that two brothers have managed to publish 3 meaningless
    papers in physics journals as a hoax - and even get Ph.D. degrees
    in physics from Bourgogne University in the process!

    on the "reverse Sokal" affair (as Baez elsewhere called it)
    that may or may not have been a hoax or may have been for real,
    because apparently nobody could make any sense out of what they
    were trying to say.

    So, I'm going to take a closer look at this here and provide some
    perspective on the issues underlying the matters raised by them,
    since it concerns matters that are of interest to me.

    OK.

    It is also an issue that is coming to a head with the recent
    launch of the Webb telescope.

    I don't see the connection there.

    The theses are available in PDF format online, at least for now:
    Igor Bogdanov
    ETAT TOPOLOGIQUE DE L'ESPACE TEMPS A ECHELLE 0

    currently here:
    https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00001503v1/document

    FLUCTUATIONS QUANTIQUES DE LA SIGNATURE DE LA METRIQUE
    A L'ECHELLE DE PLANCK

    currently here:
    https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00001502/document

    Other publications:
    Topological field theory of the initial singularity of spacetime,
    Classical and Quantum Gravity 18 (2001), 4341-4372.

    Authored by both. Note that Classical and Quantum Gravity issued a
    statement withdrawing that paper. It is reproduced at https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/bogdanoff/ along with related material.

    [[Mod. note -- Garbled URL corrected in the above line. -- jt]]

    One of the signers of the statement is Hermann Nicolai, professor at the
    Albert Einstein Institute in Golm (Max Planck Institute for
    Gravitation).

    1A. What Is "Zero Size"?

    There is actually an ambiguity here when one says "zero size". Does that
    mean that the entire geometry is 0-dimensional at t = 0 or 3-dimensional
    but with metric distances of 0 along the hypersurface?

    This is an ambiguity that leads to misrepresentations and false visualizations, that unfortunately pop science presentations are replete
    with - that many professional physicists have grown up on and which have
    been internalized in their own language and visualizations!

    It all hinges on the question: what is "zero size" supposed to be here?

    single-point 0D?
    or
    3D with zero-metric but distinct points?

    They didn't make this crystal clear. But to their credit: neither did any
    of you. So, it's not really their problem, but all of your problem, collectively. And it is because that ambiguity was left unnoticed and unchecked, that their discussion passed through the literature. It's not
    a flaw in the review process, but a flaw in the reviewers' frame of mind
    by virtue of their having been imbued with the widely-propagated, but misleading (and false) "Big Bang Means All Of Space Contracts To A
    Single Point" image that pervades the folklore.

    So, in all the places where you see this (as per Baez' description):
    Then it is suggested that the "zero scale singularity" can be understood
    in terms of topological invariants,

    you have to ask the same thing: what is "zero scale"?

    It does sometimes happen that even professional scientists embrace wrong
    ideas, in some of those cases at least partially due to oversimplified
    or just wrong popular-science presentations. To quote a portion of what
    I quoted above again:

    This is an ambiguity that leads to misrepresentations and false visualizations, that unfortunately pop science presentations are replete
    with - that many professional physicists have grown up on and which have
    been internalized in their own language and visualizations!

    That is certainly true for the mistaken belief that the relativistic
    Doppler formula has anything to do with cosmological redshift. Arguably
    it also goes for the flatness problem (my pet peeve) and the cosmological-constant problem (Carlo Rovelli's pet peeve). In the past,
    there was genuine confusion about cosmological horizons, until that was
    cleared up by Rindler in a classic paper. Also: existence of
    gravitational waves, existence of astrophysical black holes, Einstein's rejection of the cosmological constant, the confusion regarding Olbers's paradox. So, yes, it does sometimes happen.

    In a big-bang universe, the scale factor at the big bang is 0. (Whether
    such a singularity actually occurred---the consensus is probably that it
    did not---is a separate question.) Physical distance (more precisely:
    proper distance) is the product of the scale factor and a dimensionless parameter, often expressed as an angle (which makes sense when a finite
    radius of curvature is involved). If the universe is infinite, then at
    the big bang we have 0*infinity. As far as I know, the limit is taken
    to be infinite by professional cosmologists. As one usually doesn't
    have to think about such things, I'm not sure what most believe, if they
    have considered it at all.

    I'm not sure how that relates to any possible confusion regarding the Bogdanovs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rock Brentwood@21:1/5 to Rock Brentwood on Wed Jan 5 09:31:39 2022
    Corrections and additions:

    On Tuesday, January 4, 2022 at 7:37:11 AM UTC-6, Rock Brentwood wrote:
    This (meaning: the whole affair that this posting was a small part of)
    has come to my attention, only now, because the twins involved in it
    have died together on the same day yesterday.

    One died on January 3, the other late in December.

    The key point here
    1A. What Is "Zero Size"?

    is that the metric does not determine whether something is squashed down
    to a single point.

    Dimension is not a metric property, but a topological property. So,
    regardless of whether the spatial part of the metric is 0 or not,
    3-dimensions means 3-dimensions.

    The key indicator is where the light cones land. If they land on the t =
    0 surface at finite radius, then it's 3D and can't be regarded as a
    single point, or "squashed down to a single point" regardless of what
    the metric says.

    If they splay out to infinity at t = 0 (and they don't unless A(t) is at
    least quadratic in t, but anything faster than quadratic is ruled out on
    the weak energy principle), then it may be okay to identify all the
    points at t = 0 with a single point. But not otherwise.

    1B. What Is The "Singularity"?
    As t -> 0, if A(t) -> 0, then the metric reduces to rank 1 ... and the inverse metric (up to conformal factor) to rank 3. This is actually the characteristic property of a Newton-Cartan geometry. In effect, light
    speed goes to infinity at time 0; the light cones become flattened out
    with the t = 0 surface being an envelope of them all.

    The simplest way to make this regular is to treat the metric and its inverse as independent objects, subject to a constraint. The most direct way to do this is to note that the inverse metric g^{mn} generally only appears in combination with root(|g|) for the Einstein-Hilbert action:
    S = integral g^{mn} root(|g|) R^r_{mrn} d^4 x
    , so it could be replaced by a tensor density N^{mn} = root(|g|) g^{mn} and rewritten as
    S = integral N^{mn} R^r_{mrn} d^4 x
    subject to the constraint
    N^{mr} g_{rn} = root(|g|) delta^m_n

    More generally, a conformal degree of freedom can be entirely split out from the inverse metric, by writing:
    S = integral |L|^{1/4} N^{mn} R^r_{mrn} d^4 x
    with the constraint:
    N^{mr} g_{rn} = L delta^m_n.

    For the above FRW metric, correspondingly, we would have
    g_{mn} dx^m dx^n = dt^2 - A(t) (dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2)
    and
    N_{mn} X_m X_n = X^2 + Y^2 + Z^2 - A(t) T^2
    with
    L = -A(t)^2

    This provides a route for a smooth passage through a Newton-Cartan metric
    at t = 0, with the singularity in the scale factor separated out into L. And, now you
    have a way to talk about the passage from (+---) to (++++) at t = 0, and to address
    the issue of "junction conditions" for pairing off the two sectors across the t = 0 interface.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jos Bergervoet@21:1/5 to Rock Brentwood on Fri Jan 7 08:04:12 2022
    On 22/01/05 10:31 AM, Rock Brentwood wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 4, 2022 at 7:37:11 AM UTC-6, Rock Brentwood wrote:
    ...
    ...
    has come to my attention, only now, because the twins involved in it
    have died together on the same day yesterday.

    One died on January 3, the other late in December.

    The stationary one or the one that travelled?! (Just curious how
    the paradox is now resolved..)


    The key point here
    1A. What Is "Zero Size"?

    is that the metric does not determine whether something is squashed down
    to a single point.

    Dimension is not a metric property, but a topological property. So, regardless of whether the spatial part of the metric is 0 or not, 3-dimensions means 3-dimensions.

    Why? If I say there are 5 dimensions, but the metric tensor entries
    involving the 2 "new" directions are all zero, how can you see the
    difference?

    --
    Jos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. J. Lodder@21:1/5 to Rock Brentwood on Fri Jan 7 21:57:59 2022
    Rock Brentwood <rockbrentwood@gmail.com> wrote:

    This (meaning: the whole affair that this posting was a small part of)
    has come to my attention, only now, because the twins involved in it
    have died together on the same day yesterday.

    On Wednesday, October 23, 2002 at 11:43:50 PM UTC-5, John Baez wrote:
    ... I hear that two brothers have managed to publish 3 meaningless
    papers in physics journals as a hoax - and even get Ph.D. degrees
    in physics from Bourgogne University in the process!

    on the "reverse Sokal" affair (as Baez elsewhere called it)
    that may or may not have been a hoax or may have been for real,
    because apparently nobody could make any sense out of what they
    were trying to say.

    Not elsewhere, here!
    John Baez started the "Physics bitten by reverse Alan Sokal hoax?"
    thread here in this very forum.

    For reference purposes:
    John's considered opinion on it, after the fact, can be found at: <https://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/bogdanov.html> (2010)

    It gives references to the original literature.

    Jan

    --
    Lots more on
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdanov_affair>
    (with a huge disputes page)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Phillip Helbig (undress to reply@21:1/5 to J. J. Lodder on Sat Jan 8 00:29:02 2022
    In article <1plf6cu.1p928l11ov21kN%nospam@de-ster.demon.nl>, nospam@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) writes:

    Rock Brentwood <rockbrentwood@gmail.com> wrote:

    This (meaning: the whole affair that this posting was a small part of=
    )
    has come to my attention, only now, because the twins involved in it
    have died together on the same day yesterday.

    On Wednesday, October 23, 2002 at 11:43:50 PM UTC-5, John Baez wrote:
    ... I hear that two brothers have managed to publish 3 meaningless
    papers in physics journals as a hoax - and even get Ph.D. degrees
    in physics from Bourgogne University in the process!

    on the "reverse Sokal" affair (as Baez elsewhere called it)
    that may or may not have been a hoax or may have been for real,
    because apparently nobody could make any sense out of what they
    were trying to say.

    My guess is that the consensus is that it was not a hoax. Usually,
    hoaxers want to point out the stupidity of the hoaxed, or want to amuse
    the public (and themselves by following the reaction of the public).
    The twins were well known in France as popular-science celebrities, with
    TV shows and so on---sort of like Carl Sagan or Brian Cox, except
    without a scientific reputation, so perhaps more like Bill Nye the
    Science Guy or, for the older folks, Julius Sumner Miller (who did have
    a degree in physics; those applying for jobs now will be amused (or not)
    at the fact that he applied for 700(!) jobs in 1937 before finally
    getting one at Dillard University).

    As far as the first motivation goes, why would they want to send up
    physics, publishing, refereeing, academia, or whatever? That makes
    sense only for a complete outsider (like Sokal with respect to _Social
    Text_) in order to mock the field, or for insiders (e.g. G. Beck, H.
    Bethe & W. Riezler, Naturwissenschaften, 19, 39 (1931), which is a
    brilliant spoof of Eddington). People working in popular science but
    without a scientific reputation have no motivation for something like
    that.

    To amuse the public (and thus themselves)? Their work is far too
    obscure for that.

    My conclusion is that they hugely over-estimated their own abilities,
    suffered somewhat from not having academic titles, and decided to remedy
    the situation. Maybe they chose the topics they did because it is very difficult for non-experts---apparently even for some of those judging
    their theses---to tell real from phony in such specialized fields. They
    would probably have been content to have their titles (with the lowest
    passing grade), but when others became interested they had to defend
    their reputation by all means possible, and probably didn't have good
    judgement in that respect.

    While it is true that nothing has come of their work, there are also
    probably many papers which aren't cited at all but are more or less OK.
    On the other hand, many experts in the field HAVE examined their work,
    and AFAIK no serious scientist thinks that there is anything to it.

    I'm willing to admit, though, that Foucault's pendulum might have been
    an attempt at some tongue-in-cheek humour, which might have been OK if
    the work were of good quality otherwise.

    Perhaps referees and editors have become a bit more astute as a result.

    Lots more on
    <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogdanov_affair>
    (with a huge disputes page)

    Indeed.

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