• The Wolfram Physics Project

    From Thomas Koenig@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 16 08:54:52 2020
    Stephen Wolfram (he of Mathematica fame) has launched a project with
    which he aims to create a fundamental theory of physics based
    on graph theory.

    So far, there do not appear to be many (any?) peer-reviewed articles on
    the project web site, https://www.wolframphysics.org/ .

    I wonder what the physics community thinks of his approach.

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  • From Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)@21:1/5 to tkoenig@netcologne.de on Thu Apr 16 22:44:17 2020
    In article <r77id3$jmp$1@newsreader4.netcologne.de>, Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> writes:

    Stephen Wolfram (he of Mathematica fame) has launched a project with
    which he aims to create a fundamental theory of physics based
    on graph theory.

    So far, there do not appear to be many (any?) peer-reviewed articles on
    the project web site, https://www.wolframphysics.org/ .

    I wonder what the physics community thinks of his approach.

    Note that there is also https://www.wolframscience.com/ promoting his
    book basing science on cellular automata.

    Cellular automata are certainly interesting. The game of life by John
    Conway (who died recently of COVID-19) is an example. (Musician Brian
    Eno once said that the only things interesting ever done on computers
    were screen savers. I have a game-of-life screen saver.) Whether all
    physics can be based on them, I don't know. Ditto for his new effort.

    My impression: both web sites and his books are probably worth reading,
    even if he doesn't have the big answers.

    But maybe he does.

    While books are probably necessary to explain a fundamentally different approach, at the end of the day his theory has to make testable
    predictions which differ from those of other theories, and they should
    be written up and published in the standard journals for this sort of
    thing, such as _Foundations of Physics_.

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  • From rockbrentwood@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 11 08:39:09 2020
    On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 12:44:21 AM UTC-5, Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
    While books are probably necessary [for expositions of new frameworks]
    they should be written up and published in the standard journals for
    this sort of thing, such as _Foundations of Physics_.

    (Said with a big sly grin).

    That's aiming pretty low, don't you think?

    Questions regarding what mathematical frameworks to use for physics
    belong, properly, to the field of Mathematical Physics - so the natural journals to consider are those in that field such as ... the Journal of Mathematical Physics?

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  • From rockbrentwood@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Thomas Koenig on Thu Jun 11 08:38:39 2020
    On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 3:54:54 AM UTC-5, Thomas Koenig wrote:
    Stephen Wolfram [...] physics based on graph theory.
    [...]
    I wonder what the physics community thinks of his approach.

    Well, naturally, to answer that question you go over to ArXiv and do a
    search! Like this https://arxiv.org/abs/2004.14810

    It's little more than another crusade to try to force yet another
    narrative or framework out of the blue onto facts. Theories are supposed
    to be led by and follow the facts, not the other way around.

    I played that game a long time ago (a thesis titled "Finite
    Electromagnetism"); something I outgrew more than a generation back.

    But this much I will say: note the mention of "updating events" in
    "causal invariant graphs" in the reference. What, exactly, does
    "updating" mean in the setting of quantum theory ... particularly if you
    are in the Heisenberg Picture?

    And it's here that we shift it from the forced Wolfram narrative back to matters more of concern to Physicists - the Born Rule.

    The standard rule used to establish a correspondence between Quantum
    Theory and the real world (and to provide a interpretation thereof) is
    the Born Rule. What does the Born Rule look like in the Heisenberg
    Picture? What's being updated?

    Perhaps you'll find a correspondence in the following to some of the
    details laid out in the above reference, and see if you don't find any correspondence. But better grounded.

    The Born Rule has a causal dependency. The input states for two or more measurements depends on the causal order of those measurements. Thus, in
    order to even be able to *define* a Born Rule, you need to *first* have
    a causal frame in place that gives you a causal ordering between the measurements.

    That's part of the background!

    Thus, a Heisenberg Picture version of the Born Rule contains a large
    amount of hidden infrastructure that would otherwise be behind the
    scenes if you had used the Schroedinger picture to frame the Born Rule
    inside of. It consists of - at a minimum - the following:

    (a) A set C of measurements (which you're going to be applying the Born
    Rule to all of).

    (b) A causal ordering on the set C.

    (c) A FAMILY of Heisenberg states - one state for each partition of the
    set into "before/after" subsets of C such that
    (c1) If B and A are respectively before and after subsets then no
    measurement in A causally precedes any measurement in B; no measurement
    in B causally follows any measurement in A.
    (c2) A and B, together, exhaust all of C
    (c3) the intersection of A and B is empty - it is a partition of C.

    So for each such partition C like so, there is one Heisenberg state
    associated with it.

    (d) For any two partitions that agree except for one measurement; i.e.
    A1 = A0 union {c}, B0 = B1 union {c}, the Heisenberg state associated
    with (A1,B1) is obtained from the Heisenberg state associated with
    (A0,B0) by applying the Born rule to measurement (c).

    To get the Born Rule, you map the time coordinate (t) so that the t = 0
    surface separates B1 from A0 with t < 0 for A0, t > 0 for B1 and has measurement (c) at t = 0; and then transform to the Schroedinger Picture
    using this as the reference time. Apply the Born Rule for measurement
    (c) at t = 0, then transform back to the Heisenberg Picture. The
    Heisenberg state derived from the t > 0 Schroedinger state is then the
    state associated with (A1,B1), while the Heisenberg state associated
    with the t < 0 Schroedinger state is the state that is associated with
    (A0,B0).

    When you apply the Born Rule to the (A0,B0) state, you get a mixed state
    for (A1,B1) in the first stage of the Born Rule, and then this further
    reduces to one of the pure state components (presumably, one of the eigenvectors of the matrix version of the mixed state); the resulting
    being a stochastic transformation from the (A0,B0) to (A1,B1) state. So,
    the whole graph C is threaded by a family of Heisenberg states that are connected to one another by stochastic updates. It is, in effect, a
    stochastic finite Heisenberg-state automaton.

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  • From rockbrentwood@gmail.com@21:1/5 to rockbr...@gmail.com on Wed Jun 17 21:49:21 2020
    On Thursday, June 11, 2020 at 2:38:41 AM UTC-5, rockbr...@gmail.com wrote:
    (c) A FAMILY of Heisenberg states - one state for each partition of the
    set into "before/after" subsets of C such that
    (c1) If B and A are respectively before and after subsets then no
    measurement in A causally precedes any measurement in B; no measurement
    in B causally follows any measurement in A.

    That's backwards and should be the other way around.

    (c1) no measurement in B causally precedes any measurement in A; no
    measurement in A causally follows any measurement in B.

    Each partition of C into (A,B) describes, effectively, a "now", which is "before" all the measurements in B and "after" all the measurements in
    A.

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