• Rayleigh vs. Nyquist

    From RichD@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 12 15:36:43 2017
    Consider the Nyquist criterion for sampling a continuous
    waveform - 2x bandwidth - then the Rayleigh resolution
    principle - peaks must separate by at least 1 wavelength.

    Don't these look much analogous?
    Especially as λ = 1/f

    Ruminating a bit more... Nyquist sampling can be
    viewed as a mandate to sample each period, at least
    twice. And, Rayleigh mandates that the image be
    'sampled' twice, in the sense of a peak and trough.

    It strikes me they may be equivalent, in some deeper
    sense. Has anyone ever tried to derive such a result,
    mathematically?

    I can't be the first to ever conjecture this -

    --
    Rich

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  • From ggherold@gmail.com@21:1/5 to RichD on Wed Dec 13 05:37:19 2017
    On Tuesday, December 12, 2017 at 6:36:45 PM UTC-5, RichD wrote:
    Consider the Nyquist criterion for sampling a continuous
    waveform - 2x bandwidth - then the Rayleigh resolution
    principle - peaks must separate by at least 1 wavelength.
    Well lamda/ D (diameter of lens). But sure it's a kinda a spacial
    transform rather than time.

    George h.

    Don't these look much analogous?
    Especially as λ = 1/f

    Ruminating a bit more... Nyquist sampling can be
    viewed as a mandate to sample each period, at least
    twice. And, Rayleigh mandates that the image be
    'sampled' twice, in the sense of a peak and trough.

    It strikes me they may be equivalent, in some deeper
    sense. Has anyone ever tried to derive such a result,
    mathematically?

    I can't be the first to ever conjecture this -

    --
    Rich

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to RichD on Wed Dec 13 11:16:00 2017
    On 12/12/2017 06:36 PM, RichD wrote:
    Consider the Nyquist criterion for sampling a continuous
    waveform - 2x bandwidth - then the Rayleigh resolution
    principle - peaks must separate by at least 1 wavelength.

    Don't these look much analogous?
    Especially as λ = 1/f

    Ruminating a bit more... Nyquist sampling can be
    viewed as a mandate to sample each period, at least
    twice. And, Rayleigh mandates that the image be
    'sampled' twice, in the sense of a peak and trough.

    It strikes me they may be equivalent, in some deeper
    sense. Has anyone ever tried to derive such a result,
    mathematically?

    I can't be the first to ever conjecture this -

    --
    Rich


    Time in seconds and frequency in hertz are conjugate variables in the
    temporal Fourier transform, i.e. they appear multiplied together in the
    kernel exp(i 2 pi f t).

    In the same way, in Fourier optics distance and angle are conjugate
    variables, because the spatial Fourier kernel is exp(i 2 pi (x/lambda)
    u), where u is the normalized spatial frequency. You can write u in
    terms of the in-plane component of k or in terms of angle:

    u = (k_perp / k)= sin theta,

    where theta is the angle that the k vector of the given plane wave
    component makes with the normal to the plane where you're computing the transform.

    The sampling theorem is perhaps easiest to understand in terms of the
    sampling function sha(t), which is an infinite train of unit-strength delta-functions spaced at 1-second intervals. It has the special
    property of being its own transform, i.e. sha(t) has transform sha(f).

    If you take some signal g(t) and multiply it by the sha function, only
    the values at t = ....-2,-1,0,1,2.... seconds survive.

    When you multiply g(t) by h(t), the resulting function has a Fourier
    transform G(f) * H(f), where G and H are the transforms of g and h respectively, and * denotes convolution. This is the convolution
    theorem of Fourier transforms. (If you don't know exactly what a
    convolution is and what it does, you'll probably have to go find out
    before the rest of this explanation will make any sense.)

    Convolving a function G(f) with sha(f) produces the sum of infinitely
    many copies of G, each copy offset by ...-2,-1,0,,1,2... hertz. The
    result is a mess in general because of all the overlapping
    contributions, which are said to be _aliased_ because they keep popping
    up at the wrong frequency. So why is this useful?

    If you specialize to functions G that have a bandwidth of less than a
    hertz, the contributions don't overlap, so the true spectrum G can be
    recovered by lowpass filtering the sampled data. This is the sampling
    theorem.

    There's one other fine point: since our G is the spectrum of a
    real-valued function (our measured data), so its transform has Hermitian symmetry, i.e. G(-f) = G'(f), where the prime denotes complex
    conjugation. This means that we have to use up half of our available
    bandwidth to accommodate the negative frequencies, so the bandwidth of G
    has to be less than 0.5 Hz for a 1-Hz sampling rate. That's the special
    case of the theorem that we normally quote. With two-phase (I/Q)
    sampling, you can use the full 1 Hz.

    The Rayleigh criterion also uses both real and Fourier space, but it's a heuristic based on visual or photographic detection, and not anything
    very fundamental. The idea is that if you have two point sources (such
    as stars in a telescope) close together, you can tell that there are two
    and not just one if they're separated by at least the diameter of the
    Airy disc (the central peak of the point spread function). The two are
    then said to be _resolved_.

    If you know your point spread function accurately enough, then with a
    modern CCD or sCMOS detector with lots of pixels there's no clear lower
    limit to the two-point resolution--you can take an image of an
    unresolved double star, construct a set of parameterized fit functions consisting of two copies of the PSF added together (with different
    amplitudes and positions), and then fit it to the measured peak shape.
    There's no clear lower limit to how well you can do that. (I proposed
    this in the first edition of my book back in 2000, and was surprised to
    find out that nobody had done it yet, at least not in astronomy.
    Somebody tried it, it worked, and they credited me. Fun.)

    On the other hand, you can make a bit more of a connection between
    Rayleigh and Nyquist & Shannon than that. Usually when we use a
    telescope or a microscope, we just want to look and see what's there,
    without having some a priori model in mind. In that case, resolution
    does degrade roughly in line with Rayleigh, though there's no aliasing
    or spectral leakage as there is with poorly-designed sampling systems.

    There is an analogue of aliasing in optics, namely grating orders.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    https://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From Behzat Sahin@21:1/5 to RichD on Wed Dec 13 11:36:33 2017
    On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 2:36:45 AM UTC+3, RichD wrote:
    Consider the Nyquist criterion for sampling a continuous
    waveform - 2x bandwidth - then the Rayleigh resolution
    principle - peaks must separate by at least 1 wavelength.

    Don't these look much analogous?
    Especially as λ = 1/f

    Ruminating a bit more... Nyquist sampling can be
    viewed as a mandate to sample each period, at least
    twice. And, Rayleigh mandates that the image be
    'sampled' twice, in the sense of a peak and trough.

    It strikes me they may be equivalent, in some deeper
    sense. Has anyone ever tried to derive such a result,
    mathematically?

    I can't be the first to ever conjecture this -

    --
    Rich

    Both Rayleigh Limit and Nyquist Rate are so 20th century.. They are basically hard limits for differentiation between two close entities (in time or space). It has been shown that you can operate below these limits; that is for good enough snr optical
    systems yo can achieve resolutions below rayleigh limit, and for sparse or compressible (lossy usually) data you can use undersampling or compressive sampling. It is in the EOTB, if you can understand what you see or hear that is enough. Regards, Asaf
    http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/print/volume-52/issue-12/world-news/imaging-theory-breaking-rayleigh-s-limit-imaging-resolution-not-defined-by-the-criterion.html
    statweb.stanford.edu/~markad/publications/ddek-chapter1-2011.pdf

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Behzat Sahin on Thu Dec 14 09:58:00 2017
    On 12/13/2017 02:36 PM, Behzat Sahin wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 2:36:45 AM UTC+3, RichD wrote:
    Consider the Nyquist criterion for sampling a continuous waveform -
    2x bandwidth - then the Rayleigh resolution principle - peaks must
    separate by at least 1 wavelength.

    Don't these look much analogous? Especially as λ = 1/f

    Ruminating a bit more... Nyquist sampling can be viewed as a
    mandate to sample each period, at least twice. And, Rayleigh
    mandates that the image be 'sampled' twice, in the sense of a peak
    and trough.

    It strikes me they may be equivalent, in some deeper sense. Has
    anyone ever tried to derive such a result, mathematically?

    I can't be the first to ever conjecture this -

    -- Rich

    Both Rayleigh Limit and Nyquist Rate are so 20th century.. They are
    basically hard limits for differentiation between two close entities
    (in time or space). It has been shown that you can operate below
    these limits; that is for good enough snr optical systems yo can
    achieve resolutions below rayleigh limit, and for sparse or
    compressible (lossy usually) data you can use undersampling or
    compressive sampling. It is in the EOTB, if you can understand what
    you see or hear that is enough. Regards, Asaf http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/print/volume-52/issue-12/world-news/imaging-theory-breaking-rayleigh-s-limit-imaging-resolution-not-defined-by-the-criterion.html


    statweb.stanford.edu/~markad/publications/ddek-chapter1-2011.pdf


    Spoken like a true software guy. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From Behzat Sahin@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Fri Dec 15 00:12:49 2017
    Dr Phil, Sir, please watch your language, there are children around! software guy? I am a 15 yr rf-photonics engineer, and been building prototype mm sub-mm imaging systems for the last 7 yrs. My team and I have built a W band material (plaster, foam,
    composite laminate etc.)inspection purpose reflection and transmission michelson interferometric imaging system last year, w/ 1.5 mm super-resolution. That is half lambda btw, in mm land we love our huge waves. Regards and respects and happy holidays,
    Asaf.
    On Thursday, December 14, 2017 at 5:58:03 PM UTC+3, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 12/13/2017 02:36 PM, Behzat Sahin wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 2:36:45 AM UTC+3, RichD wrote:
    Consider the Nyquist criterion for sampling a continuous waveform -
    2x bandwidth - then the Rayleigh resolution principle - peaks must
    separate by at least 1 wavelength.

    Don't these look much analogous? Especially as λ = 1/f

    Ruminating a bit more... Nyquist sampling can be viewed as a
    mandate to sample each period, at least twice. And, Rayleigh
    mandates that the image be 'sampled' twice, in the sense of a peak
    and trough.

    It strikes me they may be equivalent, in some deeper sense. Has
    anyone ever tried to derive such a result, mathematically?

    I can't be the first to ever conjecture this -

    -- Rich

    Both Rayleigh Limit and Nyquist Rate are so 20th century.. They are basically hard limits for differentiation between two close entities
    (in time or space). It has been shown that you can operate below
    these limits; that is for good enough snr optical systems yo can
    achieve resolutions below rayleigh limit, and for sparse or
    compressible (lossy usually) data you can use undersampling or
    compressive sampling. It is in the EOTB, if you can understand what
    you see or hear that is enough. Regards, Asaf http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/print/volume-52/issue-12/world-news/imaging-theory-breaking-rayleigh-s-limit-imaging-resolution-not-defined-by-the-criterion.html


    statweb.stanford.edu/~markad/publications/ddek-chapter1-2011.pdf


    Spoken like a true software guy. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to Behzat Sahin on Sat Dec 16 03:45:20 2017
    On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 11:36:36 AM UTC-8, Behzat Sahin wrote:

    Both Rayleigh Limit and Nyquist Rate are so 20th century.. They are basically hard limits for differentiation between two close entities (in time or space).

    The Rayleigh limit is only correct for very low signal/noise ratios, Shannon's theorem
    supersedes it (so resolving doublets an order of magnitude closer than Rayleigh limit is quite possible). Nyquist is only a discrete-transform theorem, the uncertainty principles of quantum mechanics have broader coverage of
    resolution limitations.

    FFT and commutator mathematics are, indeed, 'so 20th century'.

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 16 14:31:23 2017
    On 12/16/2017 06:45 AM, whit3rd wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 13, 2017 at 11:36:36 AM UTC-8, Behzat Sahin wrote:

    Both Rayleigh Limit and Nyquist Rate are so 20th century.. They are basically hard limits for differentiation between two close entities (in time or space).

    The Rayleigh limit is only correct for very low signal/noise ratios, Shannon's theorem
    supersedes it (so resolving doublets an order of magnitude closer than Rayleigh
    limit is quite possible). Nyquist is only a discrete-transform theorem, the uncertainty principles of quantum mechanics have broader coverage of resolution limitations.

    FFT and commutator mathematics are, indeed, 'so 20th century'.


    Well, 19th century. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From RichD@21:1/5 to All on Mon Dec 18 09:46:06 2017
    On December 16, whit3rd wrote:
    The Rayleigh limit is only correct for very low signal/noise ratios

    What is the assumed S/N such that the Rayleigh limit holds?

    FFT and commutator mathematics are, indeed, 'so 20th century'.

    commutator mathematics?

    --
    Rich

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  • From RichD@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Mon Dec 18 10:24:55 2017
    On December 13, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Consider the Nyquist criterion for sampling a continuous
    waveform - 2x bandwidth - then the Rayleigh resolution
    principle - peaks must separate by at least 1 wavelength.
    Nyquist sampling can be
    viewed as a mandate to sample each period, at least
    twice. And, Rayleigh mandates that the image be
    'sampled' twice, in the sense of a peak and trough.
    It strikes me they may be equivalent, in some deeper
    sense. Has anyone ever tried to derive such a result,
    mathematically?

    The Rayleigh criterion also uses both real and Fourier space, but it's a heuristic based on visual or photographic detection, and not anything
    very fundamental. The idea is that if you have two point sources
    close together, you can tell that there are two
    and not just one if they're separated by at least the diameter of the
    Airy disc (the central peak of the point spread function). The two are
    then said to be _resolved_.

    The confusing bit is, the Rayleigh criterion is usually
    presented as a hard limit, something mathematically precise,
    not as a heuristic.


    Usually when we use a
    telescope or a microscope, we just want to look and see what's there,
    without having some a priori model in mind. In that case, resolution
    does degrade roughly in line with Rayleigh, though there's no aliasing
    or spectral leakage as there is with poorly-designed sampling systems.

    In other words, diffraction limited, as the spacing decreases?


    There is an analogue of aliasing in optics, namely grating orders.

    That would be, if the grating spacing is larger than λ?


    --
    Rich

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to RichD on Mon Dec 18 13:23:45 2017
    On 12/18/2017 12:46 PM, RichD wrote:
    On December 16, whit3rd wrote:
    The Rayleigh limit is only correct for very low signal/noise ratios

    What is the assumed S/N such that the Rayleigh limit holds?

    FFT and commutator mathematics are, indeed, 'so 20th century'.

    commutator mathematics?

    --
    Rich


    Noncommuting operators, as used in quantum mechanics, I suppose.

    Chronological snobbery is pretty common these days, of course, but one
    might have imagined that mathematical proofs were reasonably immune. ;)

    Compressive scanning is an interesting technique that relies on
    characteristics of visual scenes, in much the same way as JPEG lossy compression. JPEG is based on block Fourier transforms, but CS uses a
    version of the Walsh-Hadamard transform instead, which multiplies the
    image by a set of pseudorandom pixel masks. A few years ago I did some
    work for a CS startup called InView, which was sort of spun off the Rice
    CS group--they were using a TI micromirror chip to form the Walsh
    patterns to enable them to make cameras for the short-wave infrared
    (1-2.7 microns) using single-element detectors.

    The real resolution limit for ordinary imaging is the numerical aperture
    of the microscope. The plane-wave spectrum of the received light cuts
    off at u = +-NA, a spatial frequency of +- 2 pi NA/lambda (in radians).
    You can improve this by imaging in a higher-index medium, as in oil
    immersion lenses for biology, water-immersion lenses for lithography, or
    "solid immersion" lenses (actually contact lenses) for semiconductor inspection.

    Superresolution can be achieved in several ways. You can do what I did
    for my thesis, which is to use a phase-sensitive confocal laser
    microscope, which gets you twice the spatial frequency bandwidth, and
    then use digital filtering to make the equivalent of a non-confocal
    scope working at half the wavelength. Works great.

    There are various sample-modulation methods, where you change the characteristics of the sample in clever ways as a function of time. If
    you have *a priori* information about the sample, you can put that into
    the analysis in various ways, such as the PSF-fitting approach I talked
    about upthread. And if you have a scanned-probe system, you can use
    NSOM or photon-assisted tunnelling or other such schemes where the
    spatial resolution comes from the probe diameter and not the focused beam.

    There are less-reputable approaches such as numerical analytic
    continuation of the Fourier transform out to higher spatial frequency,
    but there's little theoretical basis for doing that and it tends to be
    horribly ill-conditioned.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    https://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to RichD on Mon Dec 18 13:37:24 2017
    On 12/18/2017 01:24 PM, RichD wrote:
    On December 13, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Consider the Nyquist criterion for sampling a continuous
    waveform - 2x bandwidth - then the Rayleigh resolution
    principle - peaks must separate by at least 1 wavelength.
    Nyquist sampling can be
    viewed as a mandate to sample each period, at least
    twice. And, Rayleigh mandates that the image be
    'sampled' twice, in the sense of a peak and trough.
    It strikes me they may be equivalent, in some deeper
    sense. Has anyone ever tried to derive such a result,
    mathematically?

    The Rayleigh criterion also uses both real and Fourier space, but it's a
    heuristic based on visual or photographic detection, and not anything
    very fundamental. The idea is that if you have two point sources
    close together, you can tell that there are two
    and not just one if they're separated by at least the diameter of the
    Airy disc (the central peak of the point spread function). The two are
    then said to be _resolved_.

    The confusing bit is, the Rayleigh criterion is usually
    presented as a hard limit, something mathematically precise,
    not as a heuristic.

    Yes, well, that's completely up a pole, of course. For instance,
    there's also the Sparrow criterion, which is more suited for photometric measurements. Picture two equal-brightness stars, generating two
    overlapping Airy patterns in the image, moving closer together.
    Initially the spots are well separated, but at some point they coalesce
    into a single peak. To define his limit, Rayleigh picked the separation
    where the peak of one lands right in the dark ring of the other.

    Sparrow picked the point where the two coalesce, i.e. where the valley
    between the two peaks disappears. The Sparrow and Rayleigh limits are
    of course different, but they're equally arbitrary.


    Usually when we use a
    telescope or a microscope, we just want to look and see what's there,
    without having some a priori model in mind. In that case, resolution
    does degrade roughly in line with Rayleigh, though there's no aliasing
    or spectral leakage as there is with poorly-designed sampling systems.

    In other words, diffraction limited, as the spacing decreases?

    If you don't know in advance what's down there, you can't do any of the parameter extraction tricks.


    There is an analogue of aliasing in optics, namely grating orders.

    That would be, if the grating spacing is larger than λ?

    Yes. Gratings whose pitch is less than half a wavelength don't diffract
    at all, because the first order is evanescent even at grazing incidence.
    Between lambda/2 and lambda, you get exactly one grating order, and it
    goes up from there.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    https://hobbs-eo.com

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