• Mystery Surrounds Kerry's Navy Discharge

    From BMC Bush@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 14 02:47:42 2022
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, sac.politics, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh
    XPost: talk.politics.guns

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site listed as
    Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves" opens a door on a well
    kept secret about his military service.

    The document is a form cover letter in the name of the Carter
    administration's secretary of the Navy, W. Graham Claytor. It describes
    Mr. Kerry's discharge as being subsequent to the review of "a board of officers." This in it self is unusual. There is nothing about an ordinary honorable discharge action in the Navy that requires a review by a board
    of officers.

    According to the secretary of the Navy's document, the "authority of
    reference" this board was using in considering Mr. Kerry's record was
    "Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1162 and 1163. "This section refers to the
    grounds for involuntary separation from the service. What was being
    reviewed, then, was Mr. Kerry's involuntary separation from the service.
    And it couldn't have been an honorable discharge, or there would have been
    no point in any review at all. The review was likely held to improve Mr. Kerry's status of discharge from a less than honorable discharge to an honorable discharge.

    A Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, was asked whether Mr. Kerry had
    ever been a victim of an attempt to deny him an honorable discharge. There
    has been no response to that inquiry.

    The document is dated February 16, 1978. But Mr. Kerry's military
    commitment began with his six-year enlistment contract with the Navy on February 18, 1966. His commitment should have terminated in 1972. It is
    highly unlikely that either the man who at that time was a Vietnam
    Veterans Against the War leader, John Kerry, requested or the Navy
    accepted an additional six year reserve commitment. And the Claytor
    document indicates proceedings to reverse a less than honorable discharge
    that took place sometime prior to February 1978.

    The most routine time for Mr. Kerry's discharge would have been at the end
    of his six-year obligation, in 1972. But how was it most likely to have
    come about?

    NBC's release this March of some of the Nixon White House tapes about Mr.
    Kerry show a great deal of interest in Mr. Kerry by Nixon and his
    executive staff, including, perhaps most importantly, Nixon's special
    counsel, Charles Colson. In a meeting the day after Mr. Kerry's Senate testimony, April 23, 1971, Mr. Colson attacks Mr. Kerry as a "complete opportunist...We'll keep hitting him, Mr. President."

    Mr. Colson was still on the case two months later, according to a memo he
    wrote on June 15,1971, that was brought to the surface by the Houston Chronicle. "Let's destroy this young demagogue before he becomes another
    Ralph Nader." Nixon had been a naval officer in World War II. Mr. Colson
    was a former Marine captain. Mr. Colson had been prodded to find "dirt" on
    Mr. Kerry, but reported that he couldn't find any.

    The Nixon administration ran FBI surveillance on Mr. Kerry from September
    1970 until August 1972. Finding grounds for an other than honorable
    discharge, however, for a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War,
    given his numerous activities while still a reserve officer of the Navy,
    was easier than finding "dirt."

    For example, while America was still at war, Mr. Kerry had met with the
    North Vietnamese and Viet Cong delegation to the Paris Peace talks in May
    1970 and then held a demonstration in July 1971 in Washington to try to
    get Congress to accept the enemy's seven point peace proposal without a
    single change. Woodrow Wilson threw Eugene Debs, a former presidential candidate, in prison just for demonstrating for peace negotiations with
    Germany during World War I. No court overturned his imprisonment. He had
    to receive a pardon from President Harding.

    Mr. Colson refused to answer any questions about his activities regarding
    Mr. Kerry during his time in the Nixon White House. The secretary of the
    Navy at the time during the Nixon presidency is the current chairman of
    the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Warner. A spokesman for the senator, John Ullyot, said, "Senator Warner has no recollection that would either confirm or challenge any representation that Senator Kerry received
    a less than honorable discharge."

    The "board of officers" review reported in the Claytor document is even
    more extraordinary because it came about "by direction of the President."
    No normal honorable discharge requires the direction of the president. The president at that time was James Carter. This adds another twist to the
    story of Mr. Kerry's hidden military records.

    Mr. Carter's first act as president was a general amnesty for draft
    dodgers and other war protesters. Less than an hour after his inauguration
    on January 21, 1977, while still in the Capitol building, Mr. Carter
    signed Executive Order 4483 empowering it. By the time it became a
    directive from the Defense Department in March 1977 it had been expanded
    to include other offenders who may have had general, bad conduct,
    dishonorable discharges, and any other discharge or sentence with negative effect on military records. In those cases the directive outlined a
    procedure for appeal on a case by case basis before a board of officers. A satisfactory appeal would result in an improvement of discharge status or
    an honorable discharge.

    Mr. Kerry has repeatedly refused to sign Standard Form 180, which would
    allow the release of all his military records. And some of his various spokesmen have claimed that all his records are already posted on his Web
    site. But the Washington Post already noted that the Naval Personnel
    Office admitted that they were still withholding about 100 pages of files.

    If Mr. Kerry was the victim of a Nixon "enemies list" hit, one might have expected him to wear it like a badge of honor, like many others such as
    his friend Daniel Ellsberg, who leaked the Pentagon Papers, CBS's Daniel Schorr, or the actor Paul Newman, who had made Mr. Colson's original list
    of 20 "enemies."

    There are a number of categories of discharges besides honorable. There
    are general discharges, medical discharges, bad conduct discharges, as
    well as other than honorable and dishonorable discharges. There is one odd coincidence that gives some weight to the possibility that Mr. Kerry was dishonorably discharged. Mr. Kerry has claimed that he lost his medal certificates and that is why he asked that they be reissued. But when a dishonorable discharge is issued, all pay benefits, and allowances, and
    all medals and honors are revoked as well. And five months after Mr. Kerry joined the U.S. Senate in 1985, on one single day, June 4, all of Mr.
    Kerry's medals were reissued.

    https://www.nysun.com/national/mystery-surrounds-kerrys-navy-
    discharge/3107/

    Originally published: http://www.nysun.com/article/3107

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From HM3 Medals@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 23 00:41:42 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was unhonorably discharged from the Navy. This is not in rational dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and they kicked his ass
    out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 22 18:03:13 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/22/2022 5:41 PM, Chadlee "cuck" Blowjob, 250lb 5'3" morbidly obese convicted child molester and lying fat fuck, lied:

    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was honorably discharged from the Navy. This is not in rational
    dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and

    No, he wasn't. He was an anti-Vietnam war protester, as all Americans had a right and duty to be.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to blowhard@kerry.com on Thu Jun 23 07:30:07 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    HM3 Medals <blowhard@kerry.com> wrote:

    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some >news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was honorably discharged from the Navy. This is not in rational
    dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and they kicked his ass >out.

    Prove it.

    Swill
    --
    Fostergate, CattleFuturesgate, Travelgate,
    Filegate, Troopergate, Whitewater, BenghaziGate,
    EmailGate, Uraniumgate - the list of GOP manufactured "scandals"
    involving Hillary that have never amounted to
    anything goes back for decades. The rightwing fear
    of her just goes on and on............
    - On "Hillarygate" from Usenet poster

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Leper@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 24 04:11:15 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/22/2022 7:41 PM, HM3 Medals wrote:
    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was unhonorably discharged from the Navy. This is not in rational
    dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and they kicked his ass out.

    HM3...Just ain't enough pecker checkers anymore. ;-)

    Bullshit. He opted out when the Swift boaters complained about his
    stolen valor activities. The Destroyer Division had him ousted from his
    first posting within weeks. He then somehow or the other got a job that
    was normally run by a Navy CPO running a Swift boat. Then the SOB wrote
    himself 3 Purple heart citations which gave him the right to leave the
    war zone for much more comfortable digs in the US of A. From there he
    got an undesirable discharge and promptly joined the Communist inspired Propaganda group "Veterans Against The Vietnam War". The FBI validated
    his Marxist/Communist leanings. He is a despicable treasonous Bolshevik
    that should be incarcerated for treason and the Logan act. Include
    stolen Valor for the Criminal Potato faced asshole.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rudy Crayola@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Fri Jun 24 04:15:58 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/22/2022 8:03 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 6/22/2022 5:41 PM, Chadlee "cuck" Blowjob, 250lb 5'3" morbidly obese convicted child molester and lying fat fuck, lied:

    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some
    news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was honorably discharged from the Navy.  This is not in rational
    dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and

    No, he wasn't.  He was an anti-Vietnam war protester, as all Americans
    had a right and duty to be.

    Well, there you have it. When the twerp Marxist Rudy Canoza vets an
    asshole like Kerry. Then you know for a fact Kerry is a traitor and
    Marxist. You can bet your bottom dollar Kerry won't be getting involved
    with anything to protect American citizens.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Fri Jun 24 06:21:20 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/23/22 06:30, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    HM3 Medals <blowhard@kerry.com> wrote:

    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some
    news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was honorably discharged from the Navy. This is not in rational
    dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and they kicked his ass
    out.

    Prove it.

    Once he went on reserve status, Kerry had every right to protest, if he
    engaged in protest while on active duty, he would have been subject to disciplinary action.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to Leper on Fri Jun 24 08:45:56 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote in
    news:t93v3l$pep$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/22/2022 7:41 PM, HM3 Medals wrote:
    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some
    news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was unhonorably discharged from the Navy. This is not in
    rational dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and they kicked his
    ass out.

    HM3...Just ain't enough pecker checkers anymore. ;-)

    Bullshit. He opted out when the Swift boaters complained about his
    stolen valor activities.


    Not the swiftboaters he served with.





    "The decisions that he made saved our lives.
    He had unfailing instinct and unchallengable
    leadership."
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate Del Sandusky



    "He took care of all of us. He really did."
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate Gene Thorson.



    "We were in a lot of firefights. You learn
    a lot about people. After a firefight, John
    would come up to me and he would put his hand
    on me and he'd say, 'David, are you all right?’
    'I didn't know then that I had a man of God on
    my boat"
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate David Alston



    "Next thing I knew, John Kerry came out in the
    middle of all this. I couldn't believe it. He
    was going to get killed. He ran to the edge,
    reached over with his good arm [Kerry had been
    wounded in his right arm] and pulled me over
    the lip."
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate Jim Rassmann

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jun 24 08:57:12 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <utCdnYMoAZ2sAyj_nZ2dnUU7-KudnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Once he went on reserve status, Kerry had every right to protest, if he engaged in protest while on active duty, he would have been subject to disciplinary action.

    There were calls for court martial. It was difficult for the
    Navy. He was a visible decorated war hero becoming active in
    politics protesting the war. They had gotten combat service out
    of him, and the war was winding down. I suspect they decided it
    was easiest for the Navy to quietly let him go without making him
    a martyr. And let the political theatre play out outside the Navy.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to Leper on Fri Jun 24 09:02:22 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <t93v3l$pep$1@dont-email.me>,
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    Bullshit. He opted out when the Swift boaters complained about his

    Bush the Dumber's military career was saving us from mexican
    hordes between cocaine binges. It didn't compare well to Kerry's
    medals. So the slander campaign of liars.

    You still blame Kerry and the hippies for losing the war ignoring
    we should never been there and Vietnam has been much better
    without us.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Fri Jun 24 17:01:38 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:

    HM3 Medals <blowhard@kerry.com> wrote:
    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and they kicked his ass >>out.

    Prove it.

    *crickets*

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Crayola@21:1/5 to Siri Cruise on Sat Jun 25 20:43:45 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/24/2022 10:57 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <utCdnYMoAZ2sAyj_nZ2dnUU7-KudnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Once he went on reserve status, Kerry had every right to protest, if he
    engaged in protest while on active duty, he would have been subject to
    disciplinary action.

    There were calls for court martial. It was difficult for the
    Navy. He was a visible decorated war hero becoming active in
    politics protesting the war. They had gotten combat service out
    of him, and the war was winding down. I suspect they decided it
    was easiest for the Navy to quietly let him go without making him
    a martyr. And let the political theatre play out outside the Navy.

    Definitely not a war Hero. But was a lying piece of shit that used
    stolen valor to cover his very very short time in the Navy. He was not
    like by most and was shuffle out of his original posting. Good men who
    will have your back are needed on Destroyers. Kerry was not a good man.
    His posting to the Swift Boaters rather then the PBS's was a political
    gift from a Democrat Senator. It serve 2 purposes. Swift boats have a
    better chance of survival then the PBS. He took the Job of an enlisted
    Chief. He wrote his own Purple Heart(3) citations(LIES) in order to get
    removed from the war zone. He had a very very short time in country. No
    CIB for this bastard. Better men died while scum like him endured in
    comfort. A bit better then the deserter Clinton though. Seems to be a
    thing with some liberals. Many good Democrats served and without
    whining. LKudos to them.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Crayola@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sat Jun 25 20:23:02 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/24/2022 6:21 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 6/23/22 06:30, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
      HM3 Medals <blowhard@kerry.com> wrote:

    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some
    news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was honorably discharged from the Navy.  This is not in rational >>>> dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and they kicked his
    ass
    out.

    Prove it.

    Once he went on reserve status, Kerry had every right to protest, if he engaged in protest while on active duty, he would have been subject to disciplinary action.

    Wrong as usual


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zinger@21:1/5 to Mitchell Holman on Sat Jun 25 20:29:12 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/24/2022 8:45 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote in
    news:t93v3l$pep$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/22/2022 7:41 PM, HM3 Medals wrote:
    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some
    news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was unhonorably discharged from the Navy. This is not in
    rational dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and they kicked his
    ass out.

    HM3...Just ain't enough pecker checkers anymore. ;-)

    Bullshit. He opted out when the Swift boaters complained about his
    stolen valor activities.


    Not the swiftboaters he served with.

    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.





    "The decisions that he made saved our lives.
    He had unfailing instinct and unchallengable
    leadership."
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate Del Sandusky

    No such person



    "He took care of all of us. He really did."
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate Gene Thorson.

    Bullshit. You prevaricate constantly



    "We were in a lot of firefights. You learn
    a lot about people. After a firefight, John
    would come up to me and he would put his hand
    on me and he'd say, 'David, are you all right?’
    'I didn't know then that I had a man of God on
    my boat"
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate David Alston

    Made up.. not valid



    "Next thing I knew, John Kerry came out in the
    middle of all this. I couldn't believe it. He
    was going to get killed. He ran to the edge,
    reached over with his good arm [Kerry had been
    wounded in his right arm] and pulled me over
    the lip."
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate Jim Rassmann

    A drunken nonmember of the Swiftboat






    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leper@21:1/5 to Siri Cruise on Sat Jun 25 20:48:46 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/24/2022 11:02 AM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <t93v3l$pep$1@dont-email.me>,
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    Bullshit. He opted out when the Swift boaters complained about his

    Bush the Dumber's military career was saving us from mexican
    hordes between cocaine binges. It didn't compare well to Kerry's
    medals. So the slander campaign of liars.

    You still blame Kerry and the hippies for losing the war ignoring
    we should never been there and Vietnam has been much better
    without us.

    I realize that a dumb cunt like you would not recognize the pledge " My Country! Right or wrong". I do however blame Kerry and the rest of you Coomyrats of doing a job of destroying our basic rights in this
    beautiful country.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to Zinger on Sat Jun 25 21:57:47 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote in news:t98cpa$3ldc5$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/24/2022 8:45 AM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote in
    news:t93v3l$pep$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/22/2022 7:41 PM, HM3 Medals wrote:
    On 18 Jun 2022, Matt Singer <out.of.key@wyebur.con> posted some
    news:MEwrK.135768$vZ1.65669@fx04.iad:

    On 6/18/2022 7:10 PM, Memphis coon season wrote:
    In article <sr8cvd$1bdd$1@news.freedyn.de>
    "Trumpistan!" <trumpistan@gmail.com> wrote:

    BY THOMAS LIPSCOMB - Special to the Sun
    October 13, 2004

    An official Navy document on Senator Kerry's campaign Web site
    listed as Mr. Kerry's "Honorable Discharge from the Reserves"
    [bullshit erased]

    Kerry was unhonorably discharged from the Navy. This is not in
    rational dispute.

    Kerry was an anti-war protester while in the Navy and they kicked
    his
    ass out.

    HM3...Just ain't enough pecker checkers anymore. ;-)

    Bullshit. He opted out when the Swift boaters complained about his
    stolen valor activities.


    Not the swiftboaters he served with.

    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.





    "The decisions that he made saved our lives.
    He had unfailing instinct and unchallengable
    leadership."
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate Del Sandusky

    No such person


    Ex-Kerry shipmate to speak to backers
    Aug. 21, 2004

    The speaker will be Del Sandusky,
    one of Kerry's shipmates aboard the
    swift boat he commanded in Vietnam.
    Sandusky will share his firsthand
    impressions of Kerry. Important
    issues affecting veterans will also
    be discussed. https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2004/08/21/ex-kerry-shipmate-to-speak- to-backers/






    "He took care of all of us. He really did."
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate Gene Thorson.

    Bullshit. You prevaricate constantly



    Ames man backs old war buddy Kerry
    in Presidential race
    JANUARY 21, 2003

    Gene Thorson is a cement mason by
    trade, but this past Saturday night
    he was center-stage at a political
    event, sitting by Kerry. Thorson and
    Kerry served together in Vietnam.
    They were part of a six-man boat
    crew. Kerry was the only officer
    aboard. Thorson was the tailgunner. https://www.radioiowa.com/2003/01/21/ames-man-backs-old-war-buddy-kerry- in-presidential-race/






    "We were in a lot of firefights. You learn
    a lot about people. After a firefight, John
    would come up to me and he would put his hand
    on me and he'd say, 'David, are you all right?’
    'I didn't know then that I had a man of God on
    my boat"
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate David Alston

    Made up.. not valid


    Wartime comrades to be on hand for Kerry
    July 29 2004

    "I saw his courage, his trustworthiness,
    his loyalty, honesty and so many attributes.
    A man of great character, and that's what
    this country needs today," David Alston, a
    crew mate under Kerry in Vietnam, told CNN's
    American Morning. https://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/29/dems.crewmates/index.html




    "Next thing I knew, John Kerry came out in the
    middle of all this. I couldn't believe it. He
    was going to get killed. He ran to the edge,
    reached over with his good arm [Kerry had been
    wounded in his right arm] and pulled me over
    the lip."
    Kerry Vietnam crewmate Jim Rassmann

    A drunken nonmember of the Swiftboat



    Vietnam Navy crewmates introduce Kerry to public
    July 29, 2004

    Standing with a dozen Vietnam crewmates,
    all fiercely loyal to John Kerry, former
    Special Forces officer Jim Rassmann told
    the nation how Kerry saved his life in 1969.

    Rassmann’s story of his dramatic brush with
    death came just before the presidential
    nominee’s acceptance speech on the final
    night of the Democratic National Convention,
    designed to accentuate Kerry’s leadership
    in wartime.
    https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna5552159

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to Leper on Sat Jun 25 21:14:03 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <t98dtv$3lg66$1@dont-email.me>,
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    My
    Country! Right or wrong

    'I was only following orders.'

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Crayola@21:1/5 to Siri Cruise on Sun Jun 26 03:08:05 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/25/2022 11:14 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <t98dtv$3lg66$1@dont-email.me>,
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    My
    Country! Right or wrong

    'I was only following orders.'

    Was that at the burger joint while flipping burgers?


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Vespuci@21:1/5 to Rudy Crayola on Sun Jun 26 15:32:42 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/26/2022 3:08 AM, Rudy Crayola wrote:
    On 6/25/2022 11:14 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <t98dtv$3lg66$1@dont-email.me>,
      Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    My
    Country! Right or wrong

    'I was only following orders.'

    Was that at the burger joint while flipping burgers?

    ?????



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Vespuci@21:1/5 to Rudy Crayola on Sun Jun 26 15:33:02 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/26/2022 3:08 AM, Rudy Crayola wrote:
    On 6/25/2022 11:14 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <t98dtv$3lg66$1@dont-email.me>,
      Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    My
    Country! Right or wrong

    'I was only following orders.'

    Was that at the burger joint while flipping burgers?

    ?????



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Leper on Tue Jun 28 10:44:58 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    " My Country! Right or wrong".

    I don't agree with that either. If my country is wrong, I'm going to
    say so.

    I'll bet you wouldn't agree with it either if your opposition party
    did something you hated.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Zinger on Tue Jun 28 10:43:08 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    Iow, Swiftboat was all a lie. It was not even based on any facts, it
    was all whole cloth. The group was later fined 300,000 for campaign
    finance violations. It has since been disbanded.

    "Of the approximately 3,600 Swift boat sailors who served in Vietnam,
    the names of some 200 appeared on the group's statement against Kerry;
    most did not serve at the same time or in the same place as Kerry.[7]

    "*** Of those who served in Kerry's boat crew, only Stephen Gardner
    joined SBVT.***[8] He was not present on any of the occasions when
    Kerry earned his medals, including his Purple Hearts." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy

    "The term swiftboating (also swift-boating or swift boating) is a
    pejorative American neologism used to describe an unfair or untrue
    political attack. The term is derived from the name of the
    organization "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" (SBVT, later the Swift
    Vets and POWs for Truth) because of their widely publicized—and later discredited—campaign against 2004 U.S. presidential candidate John Kerry.[1][2][3][4]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiftboating

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Schadenfreude@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 29 10:18:42 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leper@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Wed Jun 29 12:17:03 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/28/2022 9:44 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    " My Country! Right or wrong".

    I don't agree with that either. If my country is wrong, I'm going to
    say so.

    I'll bet you wouldn't agree with it either if your opposition party
    did something you hated.

    Swill

    Your treasonous party has done exactly that and you condone it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leper@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Wed Jun 29 12:15:18 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War". Or is membership in Antifa
    the going thang for your kind now-a-days?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leper@21:1/5 to Klaus Schadenfreude on Wed Jun 29 12:49:36 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/29/2022 12:18 PM, Klaus Schadenfreude wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    But not everyone was a communist sympathizer like John Jerry was/
    Old Slops has been a supporter of every antiAmerican thought that has
    been posted here. I also find it hard to ever take you seriously as your
    years of posting has always indicated the "Devils Advocate"principal.


    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    Nothing new here. Merely the ongoing history of the thousands of years
    of conflict by humans. When the first moron pops a nuke and the moronic
    chain reaction lights off, a few tens of thousands of deaths will be meaningless. The argument to get involved in the Vietnam war was
    countered by many, beforehand. Democracy silenced the minority(right or
    wrong) and we had a war. I spoke out. Where the Hell were you? I served
    anyway. Where the Hell were You? How many deaths were accumulated by
    America, by the rest of the world for the travesty of America dicking
    with Japan? Oil embargo after shafting them with the league of Nations
    after WWI. Killed their mutual defense act with Australia and left both countries at the mercy of China.





    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bob user@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 29 18:50:37 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning >>sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist >>financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see how
    many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic defense
    only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bob user@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 29 18:46:44 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 29 Jun 2022, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> posted some news:t9i1b6$1g7pu$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War". Or is membership in Antifa
    the going thang for your kind now-a-days?

    I find it very dubious that John Kerry spent four months in Vietnam on a
    patrol boat, getting a Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.

    There were BMs who served a couple years over multiple tours on patrol
    boats getting shot at every day, never awarded anything more than an MDSM
    and a VSM with their hazardous duty pay.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From OrigInfoJunkie@21:1/5 to Leper on Wed Jun 29 12:26:54 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/29/2022 10:15 AM, Leper wrote:
    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
      Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear.

    What's clear is that you're a full of shit lying right-wingnut.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Onomatopoeia *BOOM*!@21:1/5 to Leper@MalokaiColony.com on Wed Jun 29 14:25:25 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, in talk.politics.guns Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War". Or is membership in Antifa
    the going thang for your kind now-a-days?

    None of what you wrote in any way addresses the topic. The record
    *is* clear; John Kerry was honorably discharged from the United States
    Navy and the medals he displays were all awarded legally. Some people
    don't think he deserved them.

    On December 17, 1967, my brother was flying a Thud over (what was
    then) North Vietnam when an anti-aircraft gunner got lucky. He was
    able to limp back to DaNang and punch out over the bay; however, he
    was killed on ejection from the crippled aircraft. He was awarded the
    Silver Star; however, all he did was to die in combat. I mean, he was
    just doing his job of strapping on a Thud every day... how is that
    heroic? So, would you say that he doesn't deserve the Silver Star?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 29 12:21:54 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/29/2022 11:46 AM, Chadlee "cuck" Blowjob, 250lb 5'3" morbidly obese convicted child molester and lying fat fuck, lied:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> posted some news:t9i1b6$1g7pu$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War". Or is membership in Antifa
    the going thang for your kind now-a-days?

    I find it very dubious that John Kerry spent four months in Vietnam on a patrol boat, getting a Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.

    He did, regardless of what you think about it, Blowjob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 29 12:19:19 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/29/2022 11:50 AM, Chadlee "cuck" Blowjob, 250lb 5'3" morbidly obese convicted child molester and lying fat fuck, lied:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus Schadenfreude <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party

    There is no such party, Blowjob.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Schadenfreude@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jun 29 12:32:02 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:19:19 -0700, Rudy Canoza <notgenx33@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/29/2022 11:50 AM, Chadlee "cuck" Blowjob, 250lb 5'3" morbidly obese >convicted child molester and lying fat fuck, lied:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party

    There is no such party.

    Of course there is.

    Blowjob?

    Doesn't he just show up at the Jolly Kone and get in line?????

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ubiquitous@21:1/5 to Leper on Wed Jun 29 15:26:05 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/29/2022 10:17 AM, Leper wrote:
    On 6/28/2022 9:44 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
      Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    " My Country! Right or wrong".

    I don't agree with that either.  If my country is wrong, I'm going to
    say so.

    I'll bet you wouldn't agree with it either if your opposition party
    did something you hated.

    Swill

    Your treasonous party

    No.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to Leper on Wed Jun 29 15:21:53 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <t9i1ed$1g7pu$2@dont-email.me>,
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    treasonous party

    Detail the treason. Quote the constitution,

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to bob user on Wed Jun 29 21:21:24 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus Schadenfreude <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and >>>Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning >>>sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist >>>financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see
    how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic
    defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame.



    What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    What did America gain from Bush getting
    us involved in Afghanistan?

    What did America gain from Bush getting
    us involved in Iraq?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to bob user on Wed Jun 29 21:19:12 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC577D2BDEBACXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> posted some news:t9i1b6$1g7pu$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War". Or is membership in
    Antifa the going thang for your kind now-a-days?

    I find it very dubious that John Kerry spent four months in Vietnam on
    a patrol boat, getting a Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple
    Hearts.





    US Navy: Kerry Medals Kosher
    September 18, 2004

    The Navy’s chief investigator concluded Friday
    that procedures were followed properly in the
    approval of Sen. John Kerry’s Silver Star,
    Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals, according
    to an internal Navy memo. Vice Adm. R.A. Route,
    the Navy inspector general, conducted the review
    of Kerry’s Vietnam-ear military service awards
    at the request of Judicial Watch, a public
    interest group. The group has also asked for the
    release of additional records documenting the
    Democratic presidential candidate’s
    military service.

    "Our examination found that existing documentation
    regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple
    Heart medals indicates the awards approval process
    was properly followed," Route wrote in the memo
    sent Friday to Navy Secretary Gordon England.

    "In particular, the senior officers who awarded
    the medals were properly delegated authority to
    do so. In addition, we found that they correctly
    followed the procedures in place at the time for
    approving these awards."

    "Our review also considered the fact that Senator
    Kerry’s post-active duty activities were public
    and that military and civilian officials were
    aware of his actions at the time. For these
    reasons, I have determined that Senator Kerry’s
    awards were properly approved and will take no
    further action in this matter."

    www.command-post.org/2004/2_archives/015348.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 30 15:44:37 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    not worth a reply

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to noemail@verizon.net on Thu Jun 30 15:49:55 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 21:21:24 -0500, Mitchell Holman
    <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:

    What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Field testing advanced weapons and tactics and costing the USSR more
    money than they could afford to spend.

    What did America gain from Bush getting
    us involved in Afghanistan?

    A dead Bin Laden (after Obama took over) and punishment of Sunnis for
    helping 9/11 happen.

    What did America gain from Bush getting
    us involved in Iraq?

    Got the petrodollar reinstated for Iraqi oil and punished the Sunnis
    for allowing 9/11 to happen.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 30 15:53:18 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:17:03 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:44 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    " My Country! Right or wrong".

    I don't agree with that either. If my country is wrong, I'm going to
    say so.

    I'll bet you wouldn't agree with it either if your opposition party
    did something you hated.

    Swill

    Your treasonous party has done exactly that and you condone it.

    I don't belong to any political parties and never have. I have voted
    for candidates from both of the majors as well as for independents.

    Btw, your writing in English is pretty poor.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ubiquitous@21:1/5 to PaxPerPoten on Thu Jun 30 15:05:46 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/30/2022 2:59 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually >>>>>> served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his >>>>>> medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously you and >>>>> Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have >>>>> and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning >>>>> sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see
    how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic
    defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame.



        What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949.

    No, you fucking liar, he didn't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Crayola@21:1/5 to Mitchell Holman on Thu Jun 30 17:09:32 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/29/2022 9:19 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in news:XnsAEC577D2BDEBACXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> posted some
    news:t9i1b6$1g7pu$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War". Or is membership in
    Antifa the going thang for your kind now-a-days?

    I find it very dubious that John Kerry spent four months in Vietnam on
    a patrol boat, getting a Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple
    Hearts.


    US Navy: Kerry Medals Kosher
    September 18, 2004

    Bullshit!

    Tell the good folks here about your illustrious military avoidance career.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leper@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Thu Jun 30 17:07:14 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/29/2022 2:21 PM, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 11:46 AM, Chadlee "cuck" Blowjob, 250lb 5'3" morbidly obese convicted child molester and lying fat fuck, lied:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> posted some
    news:t9i1b6$1g7pu$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War". Or is membership in Antifa
    the going thang for your kind now-a-days?

    I find it very dubious that John Kerry spent four months in Vietnam on a
    patrol boat, getting a Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts.

    He did, regardless of what you think about it, Blowjob.

    How would you know runt? You spent the entire war in your sisters
    Sacramento basement under the bed. Taking time out to give public
    blowjobs to other miscreants like yourself at the Jolly Cone p.Lot. In
    order to achieve a 4F Homosexual draft status. While patriotic
    Homosexuals lied their way into service for their country.
    You, indeed are a shameful little creep.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From PaxPerPoten@21:1/5 to Mitchell Holman on Thu Jun 30 16:59:31 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see
    how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic
    defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame.



    What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949. Eisenhower had no input other then to
    advise the Democrats not to get into a tangle with Jungle guerilla's in Asia...Vietnam. JFK was President and was pulling America away from that
    mess. He accidentally got a Democrat bullet in the head and his predicesser(sp), being a War profiteer sucked us into that fucking hole.
    The Johnson Family personally profited over $4 Billion dollars in it.
    Democrats have presided over ever war since after the Spanish American
    war. We have also never had one year in all that time, that American
    Military has not been involved in armed conflict and sent our dead sons
    and daughters home.


    What did America gain from Bush getting
    us involved in Afghanistan?

    WE went into Afghanistan in 1947 Truman.

    What did America gain from Bush getting
    us involved in Iraq?

    Jest getting even for the attempted hit on Daddy.



    bnVsbA==

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zinger@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jun 30 17:16:45 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/29/2022 2:25 PM, Onomatopoeia *BOOM*! wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, in talk.politics.guns Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War". Or is membership in Antifa
    the going thang for your kind now-a-days?

    None of what you wrote in any way addresses the topic. The record
    *is* clear; John Kerry was honorably discharged from the United States
    Navy and the medals he displays were all awarded legally. Some people
    don't think he deserved them

    Kerry is a shameful Stolen Valor person and avoids the boat reunions
    with gusto' I heard he was invited to be guest speaker at a Seal reunion
    and went into hiding.
    .

    On December 17, 1967, my brother was flying a Thud over (what was
    then) North Vietnam when an anti-aircraft gunner got lucky. He was
    able to limp back to DaNang and punch out over the bay; however, he
    was killed on ejection from the crippled aircraft. He was awarded the
    Silver Star; however, all he did was to die in combat. I mean, he was
    just doing his job of strapping on a Thud every day... how is that
    heroic? So, would you say that he doesn't deserve the Silver Star?

    Yep! Loss factors for Thuds were high. Didn't like em.. My ride was a
    F111. Why weren't you in country Sonny. Bless your Brother and may he
    always have a good tail wind.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leper@21:1/5 to OrigInfoJunkie on Thu Jun 30 17:19:52 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/29/2022 2:26 PM, OrigInfoJunkie wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 10:15 AM, Leper wrote:
    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
      Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his
    medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear.

    What's clear is that you're a full of shit lying right-wingnut.

    No!! You cannot suck my cock! Go play with Rudy, You inbred son of your
    sister.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Schadenfreude@21:1/5 to webspermeater@polaris.net on Thu Jun 30 15:36:52 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 15:05:46 -0700, Ubiquitous
    <webspermeater@polaris.net> wrote:

    On 6/30/2022 2:59 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually >>>>>>> served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his >>>>>>> medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously you and >>>>>> Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have >>>>>> and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning >>>>>> sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist >>>>>> financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see
    how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic
    defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame.



        What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949.

    No, you fucking liar, he didn't.

    You stupid fuck.

    Fearing that Vietnam, too, would become a communist state, Truman sent
    over transport planes and jeeps, along with 35 military advisers, as
    part of a multimillion-dollar aid package. https://www.history.com/news/us-presidents-vietnam-war-escalation

    Why do you INSIST on revealing your stupidity?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leper@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Thu Jun 30 17:24:39 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/30/2022 2:53 PM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:17:03 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:44 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    " My Country! Right or wrong".

    I don't agree with that either. If my country is wrong, I'm going to
    say so.

    I'll bet you wouldn't agree with it either if your opposition party
    did something you hated.

    Swill

    Your treasonous party has done exactly that and you condone it.

    I don't belong to any political parties and never have. I have voted
    for candidates from both of the majors as well as for independents.

    Btw, your writing in English is pretty poor.

    Sorry, I just don't converse in back woods-eze. Poor old slops has a comprehension problem.

    Swill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Thu Jun 30 17:32:53 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <V8qdnZD1VeWmoCP_nZ2dnUU7-dPNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Don't know about advisors, but Truman did support the French over the Ho
    Chi Min in Indochina.

    Yeah, Truman was stupid and missed another opportunity. But he
    didn't aid the french against the vietnamese revolution. It was
    Eisenhower that decided to save Vietnam from itself and got us in
    another long republican war.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Ubiquitous on Thu Jun 30 19:18:02 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/30/22 17:05, Ubiquitous wrote:
    On 6/30/2022 2:59 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually >>>>>>> served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his >>>>>>> medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously you and >>>>>> Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have >>>>>> and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning >>>>>> sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist >>>>>> financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see
    how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic
    defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame.



        What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949.

    No, you fucking liar, he didn't.

    Don't know about advisors, but Truman did support the French over the Ho
    Chi Min in Indochina.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Thu Jun 30 17:35:55 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/30/2022 5:18 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 6/30/22 17:05, Ubiquitous wrote:
    On 6/30/2022 2:59 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually >>>>>>>> served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his >>>>>>>> medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously you and >>>>>>> Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have >>>>>>> and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning >>>>>>> sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist >>>>>>> financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see >>>>> how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic >>>>> defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame. >>>>>


        What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949.

    No, you fucking liar, he didn't.

    Don't know about advisors, but Truman did support the French over the Ho Chi Min
    in Indochina.

    You don't know about that, either. You're talking out your ass again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Thu Jun 30 21:42:59 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in news:V8qdnZD1VeWmoCP_nZ2dnUU7-dPNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 6/30/22 17:05, Ubiquitous wrote:
    On 6/30/2022 2:59 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper
    <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one
    actually served with him and that one was not with Kerry when
    he earned his medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously
    you and Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers
    spat you have and your tune will change. Are you still attending >>>>>>> Marxist lerarning sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is
    President of the Communist financed "Veterans Against The
    Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to
    see how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and
    idiotic defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending
    in shame.



        What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949.

    No, you fucking liar, he didn't.

    Don't know about advisors, but Truman did support the French over the
    Ho Chi Min in Indochina.



    The Vietnamese kicked out the French in
    1954. At that point it was their country.
    It was Ike who helped divide the country
    and then cancelled the unification election
    that even the Geneva Convention ordered to
    take place.

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to PaxPerPoten on Thu Jun 30 21:39:05 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    PaxPerPoten <PPP@USA.org> wrote in news:t9l6c5$21c6s$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one
    actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his >>>>>> medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you
    and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you
    have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist
    lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist
    financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see
    how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic
    defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame.



    What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949. Eisenhower had no input other then to
    advise the Democrats not to get into a tangle with Jungle guerilla's in Asia...Vietnam.




    When the Vietnamese kicked out the French
    in 1954 America had no role in the country.
    By the time Ike left office Vietnam was
    partitioned, S. Vietnam was was full of
    American troops, it had an American
    committment, an American embassy, and was a
    client state. Even Ike admitted his role in
    starting the war.


    "President Eisenhower's Memoires, Mandate for Change, page
    372, shows that he believed Ho Chi Minh would have won any
    free election in Vietnam in 1956. This is certainly why the
    U.S. did not permit such an election, though the Geneva
    Convention of 1954 required it."

    http://www.chss.montclair.edu/English/furr/ike1.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Mitchell Holman on Fri Jul 1 05:45:22 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/30/22 21:39, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    PaxPerPoten <PPP@USA.org> wrote in news:t9l6c5$21c6s$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one
    actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his >>>>>>> medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator! The record is clear. Obviously you
    and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you
    have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist
    lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist >>>>>> financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see
    how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic
    defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame.



    What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949. Eisenhower had no input other then to
    advise the Democrats not to get into a tangle with Jungle guerilla's in
    Asia...Vietnam.




    When the Vietnamese kicked out the French
    in 1954 America had no role in the country.
    By the time Ike left office Vietnam was
    partitioned, S. Vietnam was was full of
    American troops, it had an American
    committment, an American embassy, and was a
    client state. Even Ike admitted his role in
    starting the war.

    On 31 December 1960 there was a total of 900 US military in South
    Vietnam. South Vietnam was hardly "full" of American troops.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_in_the_Vietnam_War


    "President Eisenhower's Memoires, Mandate for Change, page
    372, shows that he believed Ho Chi Minh would have won any
    free election in Vietnam in 1956. This is certainly why the
    U.S. did not permit such an election, though the Geneva
    Convention of 1954 required it."

    http://www.chss.montclair.edu/English/furr/ike1.html

    South Vietnam and the USA were not signers of the 1954 accords and thus
    were not bound by them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Mitchell Holman on Fri Jul 1 05:38:54 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/30/22 21:42, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in news:V8qdnZD1VeWmoCP_nZ2dnUU7-dPNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 6/30/22 17:05, Ubiquitous wrote:
    On 6/30/2022 2:59 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper
    <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one
    actually served with him and that one was not with Kerry when >>>>>>>>> he earned his medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously
    you and Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers >>>>>>>> spat you have and your tune will change. Are you still attending >>>>>>>> Marxist lerarning sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is
    President of the Communist financed "Veterans Against The
    Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to
    see how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and
    idiotic defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending >>>>>> in shame.



        What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949.

    No, you fucking liar, he didn't.

    Don't know about advisors, but Truman did support the French over the
    Ho Chi Min in Indochina.



    The Vietnamese kicked out the French in
    1954. At that point it was their country.
    It was Ike who helped divide the country
    and then cancelled the unification election
    that even the Geneva Convention ordered to
    take place.

    The 1954 Geneva accords were not signed by either the State of Vietnam
    (South Vietnam), or by the USA. In other words, neither country was
    bound by the accords and were under no obligation to hold any election
    mandated by the accords.

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 1 09:30:45 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:16:45 -0500, Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com>
    wrote:

    I heard he was invited to be guest speaker at a Seal reunion
    and went into hiding.

    I heard that when you fuck your mama, you suck off your dad at the
    same time.

    Do you still fuck both of your parents?

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to noemail@verizon.net on Fri Jul 1 09:48:36 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 21:42:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
    <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:

    The Vietnamese kicked out the French in
    1954. At that point it was their country.
    It was Ike who helped divide the country
    and then cancelled the unification election
    that even the Geneva Convention ordered to
    take place.

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    NIxon, Chile.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to PaxPerPoten on Fri Jul 1 09:34:08 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 16:59:31 -0500, PaxPerPoten <PPP@USA.org> wrote:

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949. Eisenhower had no input other then to
    advise the Democrats not to get into a tangle with Jungle guerilla's in >Asia...Vietnam. JFK was President and was pulling America away from that >mess. He accidentally got a Democrat bullet in the head and his >predicesser(sp), being a War profiteer sucked us into that fucking hole.
    The Johnson Family personally profited over $4 Billion dollars in it.

    Prove it.

    Democrats have presided over ever war since after the Spanish American
    war. We have also never had one year in all that time, that American
    Military has not been involved in armed conflict and sent our dead sons
    and daughters home.

    All bullshit. I bet you think Kennedy's assassination was a
    conspiracy and Elvis isn't really dead.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 1 09:38:37 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 19:18:02 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 6/30/22 17:05, Ubiquitous wrote:
    On 6/30/2022 2:59 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one actually >>>>>>>> served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his >>>>>>>> medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously you and >>>>>>> Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you have >>>>>>> and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist lerarning >>>>>>> sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist >>>>>>> financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see >>>>> how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic >>>>> defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame. >>>>>


        What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949.

    No, you fucking liar, he didn't.

    Don't know about advisors, but Truman did support the French over the Ho
    Chi Min in Indochina.

    Ho went to the US to seek support in Vietnam's war of independence. He
    naively thought that the liberty professing Americans would be glad to
    help them gain their freedom.

    What he didn't count on was the complexity of international
    relationships. The US was hardly in a position to tell the French to
    give up their colonies. Ultimately Ho turned to the USSR for help
    ousting the French.

    Ultimately, the country split and the US picked up the south as a
    bulwark against Soviet expansion in SE Asia.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 1 09:50:35 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA
    action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a hereditary monarch.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 06:57:26 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/2022 3:45 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 6/30/22 21:39, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    PaxPerPoten <PPP@USA.org> wrote in news:t9l6c5$21c6s$1@dont-email.me:

    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
        Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one
    actually
    served with him and that one was not with Kerry when he earned his >>>>>>>> medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously you
    and
    Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers spat you
    have
    and your tune will change. Are you still attending Marxist
    lerarning
    sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is President of the Communist >>>>>>> financed "Veterans Against The Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to see >>>>> how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and idiotic >>>>> defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending in shame. >>>>>


         What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949. Eisenhower had no input other then to
    advise the Democrats not to get into a tangle with Jungle guerilla's in
    Asia...Vietnam.




        When the Vietnamese kicked out the French
    in 1954 America had no role in the country.
    By the time Ike left office Vietnam was
    partitioned, S. Vietnam was was full of
    American troops, it had an American
    committment, an American embassy, and was a
    client state. Even Ike admitted his role in
    starting the war.

    On 31 December 1960 there was a total of 900 US military in South Vietnam.

    It doesn't change the fact that South Vietnam was a client state of the U.S.


    "President Eisenhower's Memoires, Mandate for Change, page
    372, shows that he believed Ho Chi Minh would have won any
    free election in Vietnam in 1956. This is certainly why the
    U.S. did not permit such an election, though the Geneva
    Convention of 1954 required it."

    http://www.chss.montclair.edu/English/furr/ike1.html

    South Vietnam and the USA were not signers of the 1954 accords

    The elections should have been held.

    We never should have been involved in Vietnam. It was a failure before it started. The war was unwinnable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Fri Jul 1 09:04:29 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Onomatopoeia *BOOM*!@21:1/5 to Zinger@BadS0Sad.com on Fri Jul 1 08:57:25 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:16:45 -0500, in talk.politics.guns Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:

    Why weren't you in country Sonny. Bless your Brother and may he
    always have a good tail wind.

    I didn't say one way or the other about being "in country". If I did,
    then doing so would have been called an "appeal to authority".

    If you drove a pig in 'Nam, then you're likely an Aussie. I know we technically had them; however, they were mostly an Oz show... seems
    like the Aussies had a squadron of them based at Vung Tau or Nui Dat.

    My point, however, was that Kerry's medals were all legally awarded by
    the Navy. Now, whether or not you think they should have been isn't
    important to me. I wasn't with him and, I suspect, neither were you.
    (Further, I strongly suspect that neither were the "Swift Boat
    Veterans".)

    I don't like Kerry's politics. If he's going to make a big public
    show of throwing his medals over the fence, then he should leave 'em
    there. *If* I were a veteran of the Vietnam war, I would never
    advertise it. My hero is Tim O'Brian.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 07:15:55 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/2022 7:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

        As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA
    action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a
    hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.

    He has them exactly correct.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Vincent@21:1/5 to Siri Cruise on Fri Jul 1 14:01:08 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/30/2022 7:32 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <V8qdnZD1VeWmoCP_nZ2dnUU7-dPNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Don't know about advisors, but Truman did support the French over the Ho
    Chi Min in Indochina.

    Yeah, Truman was stupid and missed another opportunity. But he
    didn't aid the french against the vietnamese revolution. It was
    Eisenhower that decided to save Vietnam from itself and got us in
    another long republican war.

    President Eisenhower left office in 1961. John F Kennedy took the
    Presidential election from Richard A Nixon. Lydon Baines Johnson was VP,
    took over the Presidency when JFK was assassinated. Eisenhower took the Presidential election in 1952..The actual seat in 1953 to 1961. Truman
    was president from Roosevelt's death 1n 1944 to 1953.

    Smoke em if you gottem. The actual war began under Kennedy. Eisenhower
    advised him to disengage. JFK had set up to disengage when he was
    assassinated. LBJ opened to door to total war withing a confined area to
    garner the most war profits for the longest time period.

    in 1954 the French were losing their ass at Dien Bien Phu. DeGaul
    demanded that Eisenhower send bombers to aid the French. Eisenhower
    refused but did manage a walkout surrender for the French and sent
    passenger planes to transport them back to France.The whole point is
    that Vietnam was supposed to be independent after WWII. The French did
    not honor that agreement.

    https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=dien+bien+phu&atb=v206-1&ia=web


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From PaxPerPoten@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Fri Jul 1 14:14:11 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    On 7/1/2022 8:50 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a hereditary monarch.

    True. Not sure about Eisenhower's input as Wild Bill Donovan had set
    that up to happen years earlier. Truman tried to disband the OSS and
    lost. The OSS then became the CIA. Truman viewed it as a runaway band of pirates. Not controllable. The DNC of today obviously has heavy ties to
    the CIA.


    Swill

    bnVsbA==

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Crayola@21:1/5 to Mitchell Holman on Fri Jul 1 14:07:45 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 6/30/2022 9:42 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in news:V8qdnZD1VeWmoCP_nZ2dnUU7-dPNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 6/30/22 17:05, Ubiquitous wrote:
    On 6/30/2022 2:59 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper
    <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one
    actually served with him and that one was not with Kerry when >>>>>>>>> he earned his medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously
    you and Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers >>>>>>>> spat you have and your tune will change. Are you still attending >>>>>>>> Marxist lerarning sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is
    President of the Communist financed "Veterans Against The
    Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly?

    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to
    see how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and
    idiotic defense only rules of engagement before totally surrending >>>>>> in shame.



        What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949.

    No, you fucking liar, he didn't.

    Don't know about advisors, but Truman did support the French over the
    Ho Chi Min in Indochina.



    The Vietnamese kicked out the French in
    1954. At that point it was their country.
    It was Ike who helped divide the country
    and then cancelled the unification election
    that even the Geneva Convention ordered to
    take place.

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    Drugged up again Holman? Truman refused to help Ho Chi Min in 1947. Ho
    begged for help in making France honor the Vietnam independence
    agreement. Ho Went to the Russians. Degaul is the fellow that blocked
    any votes in Nam and with military force. Eisenhower detested Degaul and totally refused to get the USA involve an such a tawdry mess.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 13:39:54 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in news:uJqdnYo1jPJzYyP_nZ2dnUU7- QnNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA
    action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a
    hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.



    Swill is right, you are wrong.


    The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as
    the 28 Mordad coup d'état was the overthrow of
    the democratically elected Prime Minister
    Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening
    the monarchical rule of the Shah, Mohammad Reza
    Pahlavi on 19 August 1953. It was orchestrated
    by the United States


    https://www.britannica.com/event/1953-coup-in-Iran

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_cou

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows- government-of-iran

    https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Fri Jul 1 13:34:13 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    governor.swill@gmail.com wrote in news:6putbhp8gi10tpjp61i9p85o2ntknrd8ra@ 4ax.com:

    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 21:42:59 -0500, Mitchell Holman
    <noemail@verizon.net> wrote:

    The Vietnamese kicked out the French in
    1954. At that point it was their country.
    It was Ike who helped divide the country
    and then cancelled the unification election
    that even the Geneva Convention ordered to
    take place.

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    NIxon, Chile.

    Swill



    The irony was Ike was supposed to be
    gifted at foreign relations but that is
    where he flubbed up the most. In domestic
    policy (NASA, Interstate Highways, enforcing
    desegreation laws, public support for college
    public healthcare, public aid for refugees)
    he shined.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zinger@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 1 14:38:35 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/2022 8:57 AM, Onomatopoeia *BOOM*! wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:16:45 -0500, in talk.politics.guns Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:

    Why weren't you in country Sonny. Bless your Brother and may he
    always have a good tail wind.

    I didn't say one way or the other about being "in country". If I did,
    then doing so would have been called an "appeal to authority".

    If you drove a pig in 'Nam, then you're likely an Aussie. I know we technically had them; however, they were mostly an Oz show... seems
    like the Aussies had a squadron of them based at Vung Tau or Nui Dat.nn

    Nope...WO on an Aardvark. General Dynamics.

    My point, however, was that Kerry's medals were all legally awarded by
    the Navy.

    Actually his commanding officer stated at the investigation that the recommendations were not written by command authority. But the row it
    would raise in the Jewish community would be horrific. Please note that
    his discharge was released many years later when he had attained Senator Heinzes seat.

    Now, whether or not you think they should have been isn't
    important to me. I wasn't with him and, I suspect, neither were you. (Further, I strongly suspect that neither were the "Swift Boat
    Veterans".)

    Then Kerry must have been on Swiftboat with no crew.
    4 months in country with 2 of them spent getting kicked off of a
    destroyer. A ship that is always shorthanded?

    I don't like Kerry's politics. If he's going to make a big public
    show of throwing his medals over the fence, then he should leave 'em
    there. *If* I were a veteran of the Vietnam war, I would never
    advertise it. My hero is Tim O'Brian.

    Who dat?


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zinger@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Fri Jul 1 14:25:37 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/2022 8:30 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:16:45 -0500, Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com>
    wrote:

    I heard he was invited to be guest speaker at a Seal reunion
    and went into hiding.

    I heard that when you fuck my mama, I suck off my dad at the
    same time.

    Do you still fuck both of my parents?

    Swill

    Apparently you still have your head stuck up to Dog's ass. Say hi to
    Rudy while you re there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From PaxPerPoten@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Fri Jul 1 14:21:53 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    On 7/1/2022 8:34 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 16:59:31 -0500, PaxPerPoten <PPP@USA.org> wrote:

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949. Eisenhower had no input other then to
    advise the Democrats not to get into a tangle with Jungle guerilla's in
    Asia...Vietnam. JFK was President and was pulling America away from that
    mess. He accidentally got a Democrat bullet in the head and his
    predicesser(sp), being a War profiteer sucked us into that fucking hole.
    The Johnson Family personally profited over $4 Billion dollars in it.

    Prove it.

    Democrats have presided over ever war since after the Spanish American
    war. We have also never had one year in all that time, that American
    Military has not been involved in armed conflict and sent our dead sons
    and daughters home.

    All bullshit. I bet you think Kennedy's assassination was a
    conspiracy and Elvis isn't really dead.

    Swill

    Actually I believe you think that you are *Elvis*. I would be interested
    in your version of JFK's firearms event.

    bnVsbA==

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Fri Jul 1 15:49:42 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/22 09:15, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/1/2022 7:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

        As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA
    action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a
    hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.

    He has them exactly correct.

    Like I said, recheck your facts.

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mohammad-Mosaddegh
    [...]
    Mosaddegh reentered public service in 1944, following Reza Shah’s forced abdication in 1941, and was elected again to the Majles. An outspoken
    advocate of nationalism, he soon played a leading part in successfully
    opposing the grant to the Soviet Union of an oil concession for northern
    Iran similar to an existing British concession in southern Iran. He
    built considerable political strength, based largely on his call to
    nationalize the concession and installations in Iran of the
    British-owned Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (see British Petroleum Company
    PLC). In March 1951 the Majles passed his oil-nationalization act, and
    his power had grown so great that the shah, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi,
    was virtually forced to appoint him premier.

    The nationalization resulted in a deepening crisis in Iran, both
    politically and economically. Mosaddegh and his National Front Party
    continued to gain power but alienated many supporters, particularly
    among the ruling elite and in the Western nations. The British soon
    withdrew completely from the Iranian oil market, and economic problems increased when Mosaddegh could not readily find alternate oil markets.

    A continuing struggle for control of the Iranian government developed
    between Mosaddegh and the shah. In August 1953, when the shah attempted
    to dismiss the premier, mobs of Mosaddegh followers took to the streets
    and forced the shah to leave the country. Within a few days, however, Mosaddegh’s opponents overthrew his regime and restored the shah to
    power in a coup orchestrated by the U.S. and Great Britain. Mosaddegh
    was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment for treason and, after he had served his sentence, was kept under house arrest for the rest of his life. [...]

    There is much more to this situation than is generally known by
    Americans, including you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to Vincent on Fri Jul 1 13:41:33 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <t9ng9l$2bc7d$1@dont-email.me>,
    Vincent <Vine@Letuci.org> wrote:

    President Eisenhower left office in 1961.

    https://nara-media-001.s3.amazonaws.com/arcmedia/research/pentagon -papers/Pentagon-Papers-Part-I.pdf

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Mitchell Holman on Fri Jul 1 16:00:25 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/22 13:39, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in news:uJqdnYo1jPJzYyP_nZ2dnUU7- QnNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA
    action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a
    hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.



    Swill is right, you are wrong.


    The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as
    the 28 Mordad coup d'état was the overthrow of
    the democratically elected Prime Minister
    Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening
    the monarchical rule of the Shah, Mohammad Reza
    Pahlavi on 19 August 1953. It was orchestrated
    by the United States


    https://www.britannica.com/event/1953-coup-in-Iran

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_cou

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows- government-of-iran

    https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows-government-of-iran
    [...]
    Mosaddeq came to prominence in Iran in 1951 when he was appointed premier. [...]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Onomatopoeia *BOOM*!@21:1/5 to Zinger@BadS0Sad.com on Fri Jul 1 16:48:02 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 14:38:06 -0500, in talk.politics.guns Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:

    Actually his commanding officer stated at the investigation that the >recommendations were not written by command authority. But the row it
    would raise in the Jewish community would be horrific. Please note that
    his discharge was released many years later when he had attained Senator >Heinzes seat.

    I admit that I'm not an authority on John Kerry. I voted for Bush
    (43) in '04. I neither believe nor disbelieve that. I have never
    seen any supporting evidence, though.

    I heard a story once from a Huey crew about how they were screwing
    with the pilot and started chucking concussion grenades out the
    door... then they started shooting up the real estate below 'em. The
    pilot swore he saw secondaries. Anyway (long story short), the pilot
    got a silver star and the crew all got bronze stars... or that's the
    story I heard. I tend to believe it because the source was usually
    reliable. (The guy *did* have a bronze star for heroism in engaging
    an enemy AAA battery; UH-1s didn't usually survive encounters with
    AAA.)

    I don't like Kerry because he's far left and I'm a moderate. I don't
    like most Republicans for similar reasons. I'd vote for Jane Fonda
    before I'd vote for Turmp.

    https://www.amazon.com/Things-They-Carried-Tim-OBrien/dp/0618706410

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 14:16:49 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/2022 1:49 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/1/22 09:15, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/1/2022 7:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

        As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA >>>> action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a >>>> hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.

    He has them exactly correct.

    Like I said, recheck your facts.

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mohammad-Mosaddegh

    None of that contradicts the fact that Mosaddegh was democratically elected and we deposed him in a coup.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 14:20:52 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/2022 2:00 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/1/22 13:39, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in news:uJqdnYo1jPJzYyP_nZ2dnUU7-
    QnNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

         As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA >>>> action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a >>>> hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.



         Swill is right, you are wrong.


    The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as
    the 28 Mordad coup d'état was the overthrow of
    the democratically elected Prime Minister
    Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening
    the monarchical rule of the Shah, Mohammad Reza
    Pahlavi on 19 August 1953. It was orchestrated
    by the United States


    https://www.britannica.com/event/1953-coup-in-Iran

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_cou

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows-
    government-of-iran

    https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows-government-of-iran

    [...]
    Mosaddeq came to prominence in Iran in 1951 when he was appointed premier.

    Mosaddegh was the democratic choice of the parliament.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Onomatopoeia *BOOM*!@21:1/5 to Zinger@BadS0Sad.com on Fri Jul 1 16:55:36 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 14:38:35 -0500, in talk.politics.guns Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:

    Nope...WO on an Aardvark. General Dynamics.

    Yes, I know what they are. The Aussies called 'em "pigs"... something
    to do with their terrain radar. And a UH-1 is an "Iroquois", but if
    you called it that, nobody would know what you were talking about.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Zinger on Fri Jul 1 19:30:28 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 14:25:37 -0500, Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:

    On 7/1/2022 8:30 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:16:45 -0500, Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com>
    wrote:

    I heard he was invited to be guest speaker at a Seal reunion
    and went into hiding.

    I heard that when you fuck my mama, I suck off my dad at the
    same time.

    Do you still fuck both of my parents?

    Swill

    Apparently you still have your head stuck up to Dog's ass. Say hi to
    Rudy while you re there.

    My comment was intended to illustrate that anybody can claim "I heard"
    anything without proof or documentation.

    That is, "I heard" almost always precedes a lie.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 1 19:33:37 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Fri, 01 Jul 2022 08:57:25 -0500, Onomatopoeia *BOOM*! <x@y.com>
    wrote:

    My point, however, was that Kerry's medals were all legally awarded by
    the Navy. Now, whether or not you think they should have been isn't >important to me. I wasn't with him and, I suspect, neither were you. >(Further, I strongly suspect that neither were the "Swift Boat
    Veterans".)

    They weren't. Of the 200 who signed the document against Kerry only a
    small number served at the same time and place as Kerry and only ONE
    served with him but was not present on any of Kerry's medal earning
    occasions.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 1 19:56:51 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 09:04:29 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through CIA
    action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and installed a
    hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.

    I have, repeatedly and have found Operation Ajax to be common
    knowledge. It was actually a favor to the UK to prevent Iran from
    throwing them out and nationalizing their oil industry.

    "On Aug. 19, 2013, the CIA publicly admitted for the first time its
    involvement in the 1953 coup against Iran's elected Prime Minister
    Mohammad Mossadegh. " https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthrew-irans-democracy-in-four-days
    https://www.reuters.com/article/iraq-security-blast-relations/timeline-u-s-iran-relations-from-1953-coup-to-2020-commander-killing-idINKBN1Z21R0
    https://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrows-government-of-iran
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-coup-timeline.html?scp=1&sq=mossadegh%252520coup&st=cse

    Then there's Guatemala 1954, Bay of Pigs, Chile, Vietnam and so many
    more. The US has made a habit of installing and supporting dictators
    around the planet for decades.

    One thing you can say about George Bush, he was one of the few US
    Presidents to *remove* a dictator.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 17:24:35 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <ueidne-ljMx6wCL_nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    The nationalization resulted in a deepening crisis in Iran, both

    That doesn't make it our problem. UK wouldn't open the books to
    Iran so nobody knew if UK was being fair or cheating Iran. So the
    UK got the US scaredy of USSR and overthrew a sovereign governmen
    so the UK could continue stealing.

    Since there was a country we started a war with because we didn't
    like their imperialism; it would be real funny if we join that
    same country to prop up its crumbling empire instead of
    celebrating its demise.

    In case you didn't know UK invaded Iceland to keep UBoats out.
    Then the US took over Iceland since was still officially neutral
    and ruled with a lighter touch. On the other side of the world
    USSR occupied northern Iran while the US and UK occuppied the
    south. Also the USSR has never invaded the US. Archangel on the
    other hand.....

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to PaxPerPoten on Fri Jul 1 20:18:04 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 14:21:53 -0500, PaxPerPoten <PPP@USA.org> wrote:

    Actually I believe you think that you are *Elvis*. I would be interested
    in your version of JFK's firearms event.

    I don't know for sure, obviously, but I accept Oswald as the lone
    killer. There are certain inconsistencies that cannot be ignored
    including an errant bullet that struck where it shouldn't have and why
    a dying Jack Ruby murdered Oswald while he was in custody.

    "Oswald acted alone" makes more sense and is supported by more
    evidence than the CIA theory, the Pentagon theory, the Johnson theory,
    the Mob theory, the Hollywood theory or any other 'theory' I've heard.

    Swill
    --
    Lock 'im up!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 20:45:06 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in news:XtSdnWii7e_3_SL_nZ2dnUU7-LHNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 7/1/22 13:39, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in
    news:uJqdnYo1jPJzYyP_nZ2dnUU7- QnNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung
    <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through
    CIA action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and
    installed a hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.



    Swill is right, you are wrong.


    The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as
    the 28 Mordad coup d'état was the overthrow of
    the democratically elected Prime Minister
    Mohammad Mosaddegh in favor of strengthening
    the monarchical rule of the Shah, Mohammad Reza
    Pahlavi on 19 August 1953. It was orchestrated
    by the United States


    https://www.britannica.com/event/1953-coup-in-Iran

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_cou

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthro
    ws- government-of-iran

    https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A
    9tat

    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/cia-assisted-coup-overthrow s-government-of-iran [...]
    Mosaddeq came to prominence in Iran in 1951 when he was appointed
    premier. [...]



    He was elected.

    Eisenhower financed the operation
    that overthrew him and install the Shah.

    A victory for democracy, right?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 20:59:44 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in news:ueidne-ljMx6wCL_nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 7/1/22 09:15, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/1/2022 7:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung
    <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

        As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through
    CIA action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and
    installed a hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.

    He has them exactly correct.

    Like I said, recheck your facts.

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mohammad-Mosaddegh
    [...]
    Mosaddegh reentered public service in 1944, following Reza Shah’s
    forced abdication in 1941, and was elected again to the Majles. An
    outspoken advocate of nationalism, he soon played a leading part in successfully opposing the grant to the Soviet Union of an oil
    concession for northern Iran similar to an existing British concession
    in southern Iran. He built considerable political strength, based
    largely on his call to nationalize the concession and installations in
    Iran of the British-owned Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (see British
    Petroleum Company PLC). In March 1951 the Majles passed his oil-nationalization act, and his power had grown so great that the
    shah, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, was virtually forced to appoint him premier.

    The nationalization resulted in a deepening crisis in Iran, both
    politically and economically. Mosaddegh and his National Front Party continued to gain power but alienated many supporters, particularly
    among the ruling elite and in the Western nations. The British soon
    withdrew completely from the Iranian oil market, and economic problems increased when Mosaddegh could not readily find alternate oil markets.

    A continuing struggle for control of the Iranian government developed
    between Mosaddegh and the shah. In August 1953, when the shah
    attempted to dismiss the premier, mobs of Mosaddegh followers took to
    the streets and forced the shah to leave the country. Within a few
    days, however, Mosaddegh’s opponents overthrew his regime and
    restored the shah to power in a coup orchestrated by the U.S. and
    Great Britain. Mosaddegh was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment
    for treason and, after he had served his sentence, was kept under
    house arrest for the rest of his life. [...]

    There is much more to this situation than is generally known by
    Americans, including you.




    From your own post:

    "Mosaddeghs opponents overthrew
    his regime and restored the shah to power
    in a coup orchestrated by the U.S."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mitchell Holman@21:1/5 to Rudy Crayola on Fri Jul 1 20:47:11 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    Rudy Crayola <Meth@Amphetamin.com> wrote in news:t9ngm1$2bdjm$1@dont-
    email.me:

    On 6/30/2022 9:42 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in
    news:V8qdnZD1VeWmoCP_nZ2dnUU7-dPNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 6/30/22 17:05, Ubiquitous wrote:
    On 6/30/2022 2:59 PM, PaxPerPoten wrote:
    On 6/29/2022 9:21 PM, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    bob user <bobuser@mindspring.com> wrote in
    news:XnsAEC5787AC7070CXD305@0.0.0.0:

    On 29 Jun 2022, Klaus  Schadenfreude
    <klaus.schadenfreude.entfernen.@gmail.com> posted some
    news:962pbh9avho71a92mo7314fmvgo0fnaaij@4ax.com:

    On Wed, 29 Jun 2022 12:15:18 -0500, Leper
    <Leper@MalokaiColony.com> wrote:

    On 6/28/2022 9:43 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
       Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:


    Oh...Was he in someone else's Navy? I can believe that.

    Of the 200 Swiftboaters who signed against Kerry, only one >>>>>>>>>> actually served with him and that one was not with Kerry when >>>>>>>>>> he earned his medals.

    You Sir, are a Prevaricator!  The record is clear. Obviously >>>>>>>>> you and Kerry are either soul mates or lovers. The first lovers >>>>>>>>> spat you have and your tune will change. Are you still
    attending
    Marxist lerarning sessions with Kerry? After all he was/is
    President of the Communist financed "Veterans Against The
    Vietnam War".

    Anyone with any sense was against the Vietnam war.

    58,220 U.S. military fatal casualties to achieve what, exactly? >>>>>>>
    The American Democrat party is in competition with the French, to >>>>>>> see how many of their own people they can kill with ineptness and >>>>>>> idiotic defense only rules of engagement before totally
    surrending
    in shame.



        What did America gain from Eisenhower
    getting us involved in Vietnam?

    Truman had advisors in Nam 1949.

    No, you fucking liar, he didn't.

    Don't know about advisors, but Truman did support the French over the
    Ho Chi Min in Indochina.



    The Vietnamese kicked out the French in
    1954. At that point it was their country.
    It was Ike who helped divide the country
    and then cancelled the unification election
    that even the Geneva Convention ordered to
    take place.

    As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    Drugged up again Holman? Truman refused to help Ho Chi Min in 1947. Ho begged for help in making France honor the Vietnam independence
    agreement. Ho Went to the Russians. Degaul is the fellow that blocked
    any votes in Nam and with military force. Eisenhower detested Degaul
    and
    totally refused to get the USA involve an such a tawdry mess.


    "Degaul"?

    Sheesh.............

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Mitchell Holman on Fri Jul 1 22:11:33 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/22 20:59, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in news:ueidne-ljMx6wCL_nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 7/1/22 09:15, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/1/2022 7:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung
    <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

        As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through
    CIA action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and
    installed a hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.

    He has them exactly correct.

    Like I said, recheck your facts.

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mohammad-Mosaddegh
    [...]
    Mosaddegh reentered public service in 1944, following Reza Shah’s
    forced abdication in 1941, and was elected again to the Majles. An
    outspoken advocate of nationalism, he soon played a leading part in
    successfully opposing the grant to the Soviet Union of an oil
    concession for northern Iran similar to an existing British concession
    in southern Iran. He built considerable political strength, based
    largely on his call to nationalize the concession and installations in
    Iran of the British-owned Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (see British
    Petroleum Company PLC). In March 1951 the Majles passed his
    oil-nationalization act, and his power had grown so great that the
    shah, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, was virtually forced to appoint him
    premier.

    The nationalization resulted in a deepening crisis in Iran, both
    politically and economically. Mosaddegh and his National Front Party
    continued to gain power but alienated many supporters, particularly
    among the ruling elite and in the Western nations. The British soon
    withdrew completely from the Iranian oil market, and economic problems
    increased when Mosaddegh could not readily find alternate oil markets.

    A continuing struggle for control of the Iranian government developed
    between Mosaddegh and the shah. In August 1953, when the shah
    attempted to dismiss the premier, mobs of Mosaddegh followers took to
    the streets and forced the shah to leave the country. Within a few
    days, however, Mosaddegh’s opponents overthrew his regime and
    restored the shah to power in a coup orchestrated by the U.S. and
    Great Britain. Mosaddegh was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment
    for treason and, after he had served his sentence, was kept under
    house arrest for the rest of his life. [...]

    There is much more to this situation than is generally known by
    Americans, including you.




    From your own post:

    "Mosaddeghs opponents overthrew
    his regime and restored the shah to power
    in a coup orchestrated by the U.S."

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 23:11:31 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <dYKdnUQBkK_7KiL_nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Fri Jul 1 23:01:56 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/2022 8:11 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/1/22 20:59, Mitchell Holman wrote:
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote in
    news:ueidne-ljMx6wCL_nZ2dnUU7-avNnZ2d@giganews.com:

    On 7/1/22 09:15, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/1/2022 7:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/1/22 08:50, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 05:38:54 -0500, David Hartung
    <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

         As in Iran, as in Guatemala, Ike's support
    for dictatorship over democracy came back to
    haunt us.

    The situation was much more nuanced than you appear to believe.

    Which does nothing to change the fact that the US, largely through >>>>>> CIA action, deposed a democratically elected ruler in Iran and
    installed a hereditary monarch.

    You may want to recheck your facts.

    He has them exactly correct.

    Like I said, recheck your facts.

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Mohammad-Mosaddegh
    [...]
    Mosaddegh reentered public service in 1944, following Reza Shah’s
    forced abdication in 1941, and was elected again to the Majles. An
    outspoken advocate of nationalism, he soon played a leading part in
    successfully opposing the grant to the Soviet Union of an oil
    concession for northern Iran similar to an existing British concession
    in southern Iran. He built considerable political strength, based
    largely on his call to nationalize the concession and installations in
    Iran of the British-owned Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (see British
    Petroleum Company PLC). In March 1951 the Majles passed his
    oil-nationalization act, and his power had grown so great that the
    shah, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi, was virtually forced to appoint him
    premier.

    The nationalization resulted in a deepening crisis in Iran, both
    politically and economically. Mosaddegh and his National Front Party
    continued to gain power but alienated many supporters, particularly
    among the ruling elite and in the Western nations. The British soon
    withdrew completely from the Iranian oil market, and economic problems
    increased when Mosaddegh could not readily find alternate oil markets.

    A continuing struggle for control of the Iranian government developed
    between Mosaddegh and the shah. In August 1953, when the shah
    attempted to dismiss the premier, mobs of Mosaddegh followers took to
    the streets and forced the shah to leave the country. Within a few
    days, however, Mosaddegh’s opponents overthrew his regime and
    restored the shah to power in a coup orchestrated by the U.S. and
    Great Britain. Mosaddegh was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment
    for treason and, after he had served his sentence, was kept under
    house arrest for the rest of his life. [...]

    There is much more to this situation than is generally known by
    Americans, including you.




           From your own post:

           "Mosaddeghs opponents overthrew
    his regime and restored the shah to power
    in a coup orchestrated by the U.S."

    The Shah held his post rightfully

    No.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Siri Cruise on Sat Jul 2 06:09:07 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/22 01:11, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <dYKdnUQBkK_7KiL_nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the
    situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in
    this discussion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Onomatopoeia *BOOM*!@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Sat Jul 2 07:38:06 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Fri, 01 Jul 2022 19:33:37 -0400, in talk.politics.guns governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:

    They weren't. Of the 200 who signed the document against Kerry only a
    small number served at the same time and place as Kerry and only ONE
    served with him but was not present on any of Kerry's medal earning >occasions.

    Well, me pint is that, whether or not one wins/earns a medal(s) is
    more a function of luck than heroic behavior... family political
    connections (as Kerry had) also influence the awarding of medals. The
    fact that you have more medals on your chest than fifteen cents worth
    of Mexican money does not mean you were a war hero... similarly, the
    lack thereof doesn't mean you weren't.

    The "Swift Boat Veterans" are a political organization. Back about
    '04, I was invited to join (I was still a Republican then,) and I have
    never even *seen* a swift boat up close.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sat Jul 2 10:44:47 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <28idnQJelrLJul3_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in

    And you continue to make excuses for imperialism. Under
    principles we claim are so important iran gets to deal with
    iran's issues, not Eisenhower.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sat Jul 2 10:46:19 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/2022 4:09 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 01:11, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <dYKdnUQBkK_7KiL_nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the situation
    was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in this discussion.


    It was *exactly* that simple. Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and the US and UK fomented a coup to throw him out and make the shah a dictator in order to rape the country and steal its oil. It was exactly that simple.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Zinger@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 2 15:47:49 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/1/2022 4:55 PM, Onomatopoeia *BOOM*! wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 14:38:35 -0500, in talk.politics.guns Zinger <Zinger@BadS0Sad.com> wrote:

    Nope...WO on an Aardvark. General Dynamics.

    Yes, I know what they are. The Aussies called 'em "pigs"... something
    to do with their terrain radar. And a UH-1 is an "Iroquois", but if
    you called it that, nobody would know what you were talking about.

    Terrain avoidance at 80 feet. Grunts on the ground needed to hang onto
    to equipment after a pass. one of the slower extended ones in Omaha Museum.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Siri Cruise on Sat Jul 2 17:36:12 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/22 12:44, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <28idnQJelrLJul3_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the
    situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in

    And you continue to make excuses for imperialism. Under
    principles we claim are so important iran gets to deal with
    iran's issues, not Eisenhower.

    No excuse, just trying to understand the reasoning of the leadership of
    the day.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Sat Jul 2 17:37:56 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/22 12:46, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 4:09 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 01:11, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <dYKdnUQBkK_7KiL_nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the
    situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in
    this discussion.


    It was *exactly* that simple.  Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and the US and UK fomented a coup to throw him
    out and make the shah a dictator in order to rape the country and steal
    its oil.  It was exactly that simple.

    Actually it isn't, and if you had half the intelligence you claim, you
    would know it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sat Jul 2 15:54:26 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/2022 3:37 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 12:46, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 4:09 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 01:11, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <dYKdnUQBkK_7KiL_nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the
    situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in this >>> discussion.


    It was *exactly* that simple.  Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime
    minister of Iran, and the US and UK fomented a coup to throw him out and make
    the shah a dictator in order to rape the country and steal its oil.  It was >> exactly that simple.

    Actually it isn't,

    It is. It is *exactly* that simple. The UK and US fomented an illegal coup against a democratically chosen leader so they could steal Iran's oil. It's that simple.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sat Jul 2 15:53:13 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/2022 3:36 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 12:44, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <28idnQJelrLJul3_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the
    situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in

    And you continue to make excuses for imperialism. Under
    principles we claim are so important iran gets to deal with
    iran's issues, not Eisenhower.

    No excuse,

    Yes, you're making excuses.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 2 19:32:08 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 2 19:33:01 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 06:09:07 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/2/22 01:11, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <dYKdnUQBkK_7KiL_nZ2dnUU7-X_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the >situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in
    this discussion.

    Duh. Nothing ever is which is a major component of America's
    political travails.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From barry@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Sat Jul 2 23:51:12 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    Rudy Canoza <notgenx33@gmail.com> wrote in news:t%3wK.419636$zgr9.390101@fx13.iad:

    On 7/2/2022 3:36 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 12:44, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <28idnQJelrLJul3_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the
    situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in

    And you continue to make excuses for imperialism. Under
    principles we claim are so important iran gets to deal with
    iran's issues, not Eisenhower.

    No excuse,

    Yes, you're making excuses.

    You keep putting false words in Hartung's mouth.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sat Jul 2 16:55:15 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <-6OdnSAaDe7AVV3_nZ2dnUU7-IWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    No excuse, just trying to understand the reasoning of the leadership of
    the day.

    So if Canada and Mexico overthrow our goverment to get fracking
    increased, you're okay because our politics are 'complicated'.
    You don't want to sound like a imperialistic hypocritical twat,
    do you?

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Sat Jul 2 20:31:58 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    "Art. 46. The appointment and dismissal of Ministers is effected
    by virtue of the Royal Decree of the King."

    Given that the Shah was the constitutional head of the government, and
    given that the prime minister was appointed by the Shah, perhaps it was Mosaddegh who was in the wrong? Just a thought.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sat Jul 2 20:18:57 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution. >>>
    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off. Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK, the shah
    appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint. The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted. He did as he was instructed to do. That's how all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Sun Jul 3 03:57:44 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian
    constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the
    prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK,
    the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint.  The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he was instructed
    to do.  That's how all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 04:01:56 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian
    constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the
    prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the
    UK, the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to
    appoint.  The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he
    was instructed to do.  That's how all parliamentary systems work, you
    fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on
    viewing the situation through the lens of our western culture, and are
    ignoring that Persian ideals might be much different.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Schadenfreude@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 06:29:31 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 23:51:12 -0000 (UTC), barry <porky202@gmx.net>
    wrote:

    Rudy Canoza <notgenx33@gmail.com> wrote in >news:t%3wK.419636$zgr9.390101@fx13.iad:

    On 7/2/2022 3:36 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 12:44, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <28idnQJelrLJul3_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the >>>>> situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in >>>>
    And you continue to make excuses for imperialism. Under
    principles we claim are so important iran gets to deal with
    iran's issues, not Eisenhower.

    No excuse,

    Yes, you're making excuses.

    You keep putting false words in Hartung's mouth.

    It's the only way he feels he can "win." He's got a weird "thing" for
    Mr. Hartung.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 11:56:32 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 17:37:56 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    It was *exactly* that simple.  Mossadegh was the democratically elected
    prime minister of Iran, and the US and UK fomented a coup to throw him
    out and make the shah a dictator in order to rape the country and steal
    its oil.  It was exactly that simple.

    Actually it isn't, and if you had half the intelligence you claim, you
    would know it.

    So, instead of arguing that popular knowledge is incorrect and then
    running away, educate us.

    Take us point by point through those nuances and explain how they
    justify the US toppling a government that was elected by the People.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 11:54:03 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 23:51:12 -0000 (UTC), barry <porky202@gmx.net>
    wrote:

    Rudy Canoza <notgenx33@gmail.com> wrote in >news:t%3wK.419636$zgr9.390101@fx13.iad:

    On 7/2/2022 3:36 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 12:44, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <28idnQJelrLJul3_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the >>>>> situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in >>>>
    And you continue to make excuses for imperialism. Under
    principles we claim are so important iran gets to deal with
    iran's issues, not Eisenhower.

    No excuse,

    Yes, you're making excuses.

    You keep putting false words in Hartung's mouth.

    She isn't putting words in his mouth. She's posting an evaluation of
    the words he *has* said. You might want to back track the thread.
    Hartung claimed the overthrow of Guatemala's government was more
    "nuanced" than the US simply toppling a government. He also disagreed
    with the facts of the Iranian coup of 1953.

    So no, she's not "putting words in Hartung's mouth." He IS making
    excuses for US imperialism.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 11:47:43 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 17:36:12 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/2/22 12:44, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <28idnQJelrLJul3_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the
    situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in

    And you continue to make excuses for imperialism. Under
    principles we claim are so important iran gets to deal with
    iran's issues, not Eisenhower.

    No excuse, just trying to understand the reasoning of the leadership of
    the day.

    It was about oil and the cold war. Britain wanted to keep control of
    Iran's oil fields. The US wanted to ensure a solid anti Soviet ally
    in the region.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 12:23:18 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 04:01:56 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on
    viewing the situation through the lens of our western culture, and are >ignoring that Persian ideals might be much different.

    That may well be a contributing factor.

    Still, the CIA did take actions to support a coup against an existing
    elected government that resulted in prison for a popular Prime
    Minister, the strengthening of Monarchial powers and the watering down
    of republicanism. Ultimately the Shah became a dictator. Until the
    1979 revolution, Iran was about as democratic as the Soviet Union.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 12:17:11 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 20:31:58 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution. >>>
    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime >minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    "Art. 46. The appointment and dismissal of Ministers is effected
    by virtue of the Royal Decree of the King."

    Given that the Shah was the constitutional head of the government, and
    given that the prime minister was appointed by the Shah, perhaps it was >Mosaddegh who was in the wrong? Just a thought.

    Mosaddegh was promoted from his elected position in the parliament. He
    was wildly popular with the People.

    None of that changes the fact that the CIA meddled in the internal
    affairs of a foreign government, disregarding the will of its own
    people and weakening republican institutions there.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 12:29:11 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 03:57:44 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian
    constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the
    prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK,

    The queen doesn't appoint the Prime Minister, idiot.

    the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint.  The
    shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he was instructed
    to do.  That's how all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    Incorrect as usual, Rudy. Why don't you look things up before you
    post? You'd save yourself a lot of embarrassment.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 09:42:43 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 1:57 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution. >>>>>
    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime >>> minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK, the >> shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint.  The shah >> could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he was instructed to do. >> That's how all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    Yes, it is. The parliament elected the prime minister. The shah "appointed" the person the parliament told him to appoint. That's what the constitution said.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 09:44:25 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution. >>>>>>
    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime >>>> minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK, the
    shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint.  The shah >>> could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he was instructed to do. >>> That's how all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on viewing the
    situation through the lens of our western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power that manipulates events and politics in other countries. That's the problem.

    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and we overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Sun Jul 3 09:51:19 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 9:29 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 03:57:44 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian
    constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the
    prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK,

    The queen doesn't appoint the Prime Minister, idiot.

    the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint.  The >>> shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he was instructed >>> to do.  That's how all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag. >>>
    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    Incorrect as usual, Rudy.

    No, it's right. The appointment of prime ministers in Iran, until the Iranian revolution of 1979, was the same as in any other parliamentary democracy. The shah appointed the leader of the majority party in the parliament. The shah had
    no discretion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Sun Jul 3 13:02:04 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/22 10:56, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 17:37:56 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    It was *exactly* that simple.  Mossadegh was the democratically elected >>> prime minister of Iran, and the US and UK fomented a coup to throw him
    out and make the shah a dictator in order to rape the country and steal
    its oil.  It was exactly that simple.

    Actually it isn't, and if you had half the intelligence you claim, you
    would know it.

    So, instead of arguing that popular knowledge is incorrect and then
    running away, educate us.

    Take us point by point through those nuances and explain how they
    justify the US toppling a government that was elected by the People.

    How about checking to see if the actions taken by Mossadegh were constitutional?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Sun Jul 3 13:04:31 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/22 11:44, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian
    constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and >>>>>>> nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator. >>>>>

    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the
    prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the
    UK, the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to
    appoint.  The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as
    he was instructed to do. That's how all parliamentary systems work,
    you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on
    viewing the situation through the lens of our western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power that manipulates events and politics in other countries.  That's the problem.

    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and we overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime
    minister was accountable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Sun Jul 3 13:06:40 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/22 11:42, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 1:57 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian
    constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the
    prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the
    UK, the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to
    appoint.  The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as
    he was instructed to do. That's how all parliamentary systems work,
    you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    Yes, it is.  The parliament elected the prime minister.  The shah "appointed" the person the parliament told him to appoint.  That's what
    the constitution said.

    Please provide a link and quote.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Sun Jul 3 13:08:27 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/22 11:17, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 20:31:58 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution. >>>>
    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime
    minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    "Art. 46. The appointment and dismissal of Ministers is effected
    by virtue of the Royal Decree of the King."

    Given that the Shah was the constitutional head of the government, and
    given that the prime minister was appointed by the Shah, perhaps it was
    Mosaddegh who was in the wrong? Just a thought.

    Mosaddegh was promoted from his elected position in the parliament. He
    was wildly popular with the People.

    No argument.

    Also no argument that perhaps the US should not have been involved.

    None of that changes the fact that the CIA meddled in the internal
    affairs of a foreign government, disregarding the will of its own
    people and weakening republican institutions there.

    Was not the Shah the head of state and did not the USA act with his
    approval, or maybe even at his request?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 11:08:47 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 11:02 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 10:56, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 17:37:56 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    It was *exactly* that simple.  Mossadegh was the democratically elected >>>> prime minister of Iran, and the US and UK fomented a coup to throw him >>>> out and make the shah a dictator in order to rape the country and steal >>>> its oil.  It was exactly that simple.

    Actually it isn't, and if you had half the intelligence you claim, you
    would know it.

    So, instead of arguing that popular knowledge is incorrect and then
    running away, educate us.

    Take us point by point through those nuances and explain how they
    justify the US toppling a government that was elected by the People.

    How about checking to see if the actions taken by Mossadegh were constitutional?


    That was not for Eisenhower to judge, and in any case it's not why the U.S. fomented the coup.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 11:11:39 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 11:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:44, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and >>>>>>>> nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator. >>>>>>

    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime >>>>>> minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK, the
    shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint.  The shah
    could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he was instructed to do.
    That's how all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on viewing
    the situation through the lens of our western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power that manipulates
    events and politics in other countries.  That's the problem.

    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and we
    overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime minister was accountable.

    No, the prime minister was *not* accountable to the head of state. He was accountable to the Majlis (the parliament). You don't know what the fuck you're
    bullshitting about.

    The shah did not have discretion to appoint whomever he wanted as prime minister.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 11:12:18 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 11:06 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:42, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 1:57 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and >>>>>>> nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator. >>>>>

    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime >>>>> minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK, the
    shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint.  The shah >>>> could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he was instructed to do. >>>> That's how all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    Yes, it is.  The parliament elected the prime minister.  The shah "appointed"
    the person the parliament told him to appoint.  That's what the constitution
    said.

    Please provide a link and quote.

    Concession of defeat noted and mocked.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 11:15:11 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 11:08 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:17, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 20:31:58 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution. >>>>>
    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime >>> minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    "Art. 46. The appointment and dismissal of Ministers is effected
    by virtue of the Royal Decree of the King."

    Given that the Shah was the constitutional head of the government, and
    given that the prime minister was appointed by the Shah, perhaps it was
    Mosaddegh who was in the wrong? Just a thought.

    Mosaddegh was promoted from his elected position in the parliament. He
    was wildly popular with the People.

    No argument.

    Also no argument that perhaps the US should not have been involved.

    Bullshit. You are arguing fervently in support of the U.S.-fomented coup.


    None of that changes the fact that the CIA meddled in the internal
    affairs of a foreign government, disregarding the will of its own
    people and weakening republican institutions there.

    Was not the Shah the head of state and did not the USA act with his approval

    He had no constitutional power to depose the prime minister. If he had, he wouldn't have needed a U.S. sponsored coup.

    You don't understand a fucking thing about parliamentary systems.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 13:30:29 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <8dSdndaZ2MSARlz_nZ2dnUU7-TOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Also no argument that perhaps the US should not have been involved.

    I'm waiting for some NATO country to stablise their partner by
    killing off the more autocratic politicians.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 13:33:12 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <8dSdndSZ2MSyR1z_nZ2dnUU7-TOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime
    minister was accountable.

    And Queen Liz doesn't have to choose the PM and Parliament tells
    her to. You really don't understand parliamentary constutional
    monarchies.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 13:35:13 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <8dSdndWZ2MQBRFz_nZ2dnUU7-TOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    How about checking to see if the actions taken by Mossadegh were constitutional?

    Fuck you. That isn't up to US and UK to protect UK oil profits.
    It's up to iranians. Stop making excuses for US crimes.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Sun Jul 3 15:51:44 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/22 13:11, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 11:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:44, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung
    <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian
    constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and >>>>>>>>> nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully
    took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator. >>>>>>>

    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including
    the prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of
    the UK, the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to >>>>>> appoint.  The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did >>>>>> as he was instructed to do. That's how all parliamentary systems
    work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on
    viewing the situation through the lens of our western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power that
    manipulates events and politics in other countries.  That's the problem. >>>
    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and
    we overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime
    minister was accountable.

    No, the prime minister was *not* accountable to the head of state.  He
    was accountable to the Majlis (the parliament).  You don't know what the fuck you're bullshitting about.

    The shah did not have discretion to appoint whomever he wanted as prime minister.

    Support that with the relevant clause from the Iranian constitution in
    force at the time. You just might be right and I just might be wrong.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Siri Cruise on Sun Jul 3 15:52:57 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/22 15:33, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <8dSdndSZ2MSyR1z_nZ2dnUU7-TOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime
    minister was accountable.

    And Queen Liz doesn't have to choose the PM and Parliament tells
    her to. You really don't understand parliamentary constutional
    monarchies.

    I understand that Great Britain and Iran are two separate countries each
    with their own constitution.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Sun Jul 3 15:54:28 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/22 13:15, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 11:08 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:17, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 20:31:58 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian
    constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the
    prime
    minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    "Art. 46. The appointment and dismissal of Ministers is effected
    by virtue of the Royal Decree of the King."

    Given that the Shah was the constitutional head of the government, and >>>> given that the prime minister was appointed by the Shah, perhaps it was >>>> Mosaddegh who was in the wrong? Just a thought.

    Mosaddegh was promoted from his elected position in the parliament. He
    was wildly popular with the People.

    No argument.

    Also no argument that perhaps the US should not have been involved.

    Bullshit.  You are arguing fervently in support of the U.S.-fomented coup.


    None of that changes the fact that the CIA meddled in the internal
    affairs of a foreign government, disregarding the will of its own
    people and weakening republican institutions there.

    Was not the Shah the head of state and did not the USA act with his
    approval

    He had no constitutional power to depose the prime minister.  If he had,
    he wouldn't have needed a U.S. sponsored coup.

    You don't understand a fucking thing about parliamentary systems.

    Maybe you should take a look at the Iranian constitution?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 13:56:23 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 1:51 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 13:11, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 11:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:44, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and >>>>>>>>>> nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>>>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator. >>>>>>>>

    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf >>>>>>>>
    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime
    minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK,
    the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint.  The
    shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he was instructed
    to do. That's how all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag. >>>>>>>
    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on >>>>> viewing the situation through the lens of our western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power that
    manipulates events and politics in other countries.  That's the problem. >>>>
    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and we >>>> overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime minister
    was accountable.

    No, the prime minister was *not* accountable to the head of state.  He was >> accountable to the Majlis (the parliament).  You don't know what the fuck >> you're bullshitting about.

    The shah did not have discretion to appoint whomever he wanted as prime minister.

    Support that with the

    Concession of defeat noted, accepted and mocked. Meanwhile:

    On 28 April 1951, the Shah appointed Mosaddegh as Prime Minister after the
    Majlis (Parliament of Iran) nominated Mosaddegh by a vote of 79–12.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh#Appointment_as_Prime_Minister

    The shah "appointed" Mossadegh because he had to. That's whom the Majlis chose to be prime minister.

    This is no different than the UK. The British monarch "appoints" the prime minister because the British parliament has determined who it will be, and the monarch "appoints" the parliament's choice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 13:58:34 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 1:52 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 15:33, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <8dSdndSZ2MSyR1z_nZ2dnUU7-TOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime
    minister was accountable.

    And Queen Liz doesn't have to choose the PM and Parliament tells
    her to. You really don't understand parliamentary constutional
    monarchies.

    I understand that Great Britain and Iran are two separate countries each with their own constitution.

    The shah appointed the choice of the Majlis.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 13:59:02 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 1:54 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 13:15, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 11:08 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:17, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 20:31:58 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and >>>>>>> nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator. >>>>>

    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the prime >>>>> minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    "Art. 46. The appointment and dismissal of Ministers is effected
    by virtue of the Royal Decree of the King."

    Given that the Shah was the constitutional head of the government, and >>>>> given that the prime minister was appointed by the Shah, perhaps it was >>>>> Mosaddegh who was in the wrong? Just a thought.

    Mosaddegh was promoted from his elected position in the parliament. He >>>> was wildly popular with the People.

    No argument.

    Also no argument that perhaps the US should not have been involved.

    Bullshit.  You are arguing fervently in support of the U.S.-fomented coup. >>

    None of that changes the fact that the CIA meddled in the internal
    affairs of a foreign government, disregarding the will of its own
    people and weakening republican institutions there.

    Was not the Shah the head of state and did not the USA act with his approval

    He had no constitutional power to depose the prime minister.  If he had, he >> wouldn't have needed a U.S. sponsored coup.

    You don't understand a fucking thing about parliamentary systems.

    Maybe you should take a look at the Iranian constitution?

    Ha ha ha ha ha!

    Concession of defeat noted.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 14:20:50 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <wOadnejnweWZn1__nZ2dnUU7-QednZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Maybe you should take a look at the Iranian constitution?

    Maybe you should look at the Nuremberg Trials.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 20:04:52 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 13:08:27 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    None of that changes the fact that the CIA meddled in the internal
    affairs of a foreign government, disregarding the will of its own
    people and weakening republican institutions there.

    Was not the Shah the head of state

    Head of State does not equal Head of Government. In Britain, the
    Prime Minister is head of government, the Queen is Head of State. In
    the United States, the President is both.

    and did not the USA act with his
    approval, or maybe even at his request?

    No, he did not request it of us, the UK did.

    As for Reza Shah's approval, nobody cared if he approved or not. The
    CIA was contemptuous of him. He was to be a US/UK puppet, nothing
    more. His father had been deposed by the US/UK during WWII when the
    country was invaded for supporting Germany, and the crown handed to
    him by the allies.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 19:56:34 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 13:04:31 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/3/22 11:44, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian
    constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and >>>>>>>> nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an >>>>>>> elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator. >>>>>>

    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the >>>>>> prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the
    UK, the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to
    appoint.  The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as
    he was instructed to do. That's how all parliamentary systems work,
    you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on
    viewing the situation through the lens of our western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power that
    manipulates events and politics in other countries.  That's the problem.

    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and we
    overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime
    minister was accountable.

    That is not the same as "dictator".

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 19:45:53 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 13:02:04 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/3/22 10:56, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 17:37:56 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    It was *exactly* that simple.  Mossadegh was the democratically elected >>>> prime minister of Iran, and the US and UK fomented a coup to throw him >>>> out and make the shah a dictator in order to rape the country and steal >>>> its oil.  It was exactly that simple.

    Actually it isn't, and if you had half the intelligence you claim, you
    would know it.

    So, instead of arguing that popular knowledge is incorrect and then
    running away, educate us.

    Take us point by point through those nuances and explain how they
    justify the US toppling a government that was elected by the People.

    How about checking to see if the actions taken by Mossadegh were >constitutional?


    Do it. I'm not stopping you. You've dodged

    "Take us point by point through those nuances and explain how they
    justify the US toppling a government that was elected by the People."

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 3 19:57:41 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 15:51:44 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/3/22 13:11, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 11:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:44, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung
    <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian >>>>>>>>>> constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and >>>>>>>>>> nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully >>>>>>>>> took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator. >>>>>>>>

    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf >>>>>>>>
    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including >>>>>>>> the prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of
    the UK, the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to >>>>>>> appoint.  The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did >>>>>>> as he was instructed to do. That's how all parliamentary systems >>>>>>> work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on >>>>> viewing the situation through the lens of our western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power that
    manipulates events and politics in other countries.  That's the problem. >>>>
    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and
    we overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime
    minister was accountable.

    No, the prime minister was *not* accountable to the head of state.  He
    was accountable to the Majlis (the parliament).  You don't know what the
    fuck you're bullshitting about.

    The shah did not have discretion to appoint whomever he wanted as prime
    minister.

    Support that with the relevant clause from the Iranian constitution in
    force at the time. You just might be right and I just might be wrong.

    The Shah's appointment power was your claim, YOU support it.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From David Hartung@21:1/5 to Rudy Canoza on Sun Jul 3 19:51:57 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/22 15:56, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 1:51 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 13:11, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 11:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:44, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung
    <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian >>>>>>>>>>> constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex >>>>>>>>>>> and
    nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully >>>>>>>>>> took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a
    dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf >>>>>>>>>
    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including >>>>>>>>> the prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of >>>>>>>> the UK, the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him >>>>>>>> to appoint.  The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He >>>>>>>> did as he was instructed to do. That's how all parliamentary
    systems work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting
    on viewing the situation through the lens of our western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power that
    manipulates events and politics in other countries.  That's the
    problem.

    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran,
    and we overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime
    minister was accountable.

    No, the prime minister was *not* accountable to the head of state.
    He was accountable to the Majlis (the parliament).  You don't know
    what the fuck you're bullshitting about.

    The shah did not have discretion to appoint whomever he wanted as
    prime minister.

    Support that with the

    Concession of defeat noted, accepted and mocked.  Meanwhile:

       On 28 April 1951, the Shah appointed Mosaddegh as Prime Minister
    after the
       Majlis (Parliament of Iran) nominated Mosaddegh by a vote of 79–12.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh#Appointment_as_Prime_Minister

    A very interesting and informative link. Read through it and you will
    see that neither Pahlavi or Mosaddegh were what many of us would
    consider to be worthy.

    Yes I agree that the USA should have stayed out of the situation, but I
    reject the idea that Mosaddegh was "the good guy".


    The shah "appointed" Mossadegh because he had to.  That's whom the
    Majlis chose to be prime minister.

    This is no different than the UK.  The British monarch "appoints" the
    prime minister because the British parliament has determined who it will
    be, and the monarch "appoints" the parliament's choice.

    Yet you cannot show men where Iranian law dictates this, while I have
    provided a link and quote which suggests otherwise.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Canoza@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 18:07:05 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 5:51 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 15:56, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 1:51 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 13:11, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 11:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:44, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian >>>>>>>>>>>> constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore complex and >>>>>>>>>>>> nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want to believe. >>>>>>>>>>>
    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives successfully took an
    elected official out of power, into jail, and empowered a dictator. >>>>>>>>>>

    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pdf >>>>>>>>>>
    If I read the above correctly, government ministers (including the >>>>>>>>>> prime minister) were appointed by the Shah (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister of the UK,
    the shah appointed the person the parliament *told* him to appoint. >>>>>>>>> The shah could not appoint whomever he wanted.  He did as he was >>>>>>>>> instructed to do. That's how all parliamentary systems work, you >>>>>>>>> fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are insisting on >>>>>>> viewing the situation through the lens of our western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power that >>>>>> manipulates events and politics in other countries.  That's the problem.

    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, and we >>>>>> overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the prime >>>>> minister was accountable.

    No, the prime minister was *not* accountable to the head of state. He was >>>> accountable to the Majlis (the parliament).  You don't know what the fuck >>>> you're bullshitting about.

    The shah did not have discretion to appoint whomever he wanted as prime >>>> minister.

    Support that with the

    Concession of defeat noted, accepted and mocked.  Meanwhile:

        On 28 April 1951, the Shah appointed Mosaddegh as Prime Minister after the
        Majlis (Parliament of Iran) nominated Mosaddegh by a vote of 79–12. >>
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh#Appointment_as_Prime_Minister

    A very interesting and informative link. Read through it and you will see that
    neither Pahlavi or Mosaddegh were what many of us would consider to be worthy.

    Not the point, and anyway false.. The point is that Mossadegh was the legitimate head of government, and the U.S. had no business mounting a coup against him.

    You only say Mossadegh was not "worthy" because he was going against what the U.S. and U.K. wanted. That doesn't equate to "not worthy." In fact, he was an ardent nationalist, and the Iranian people considered him worthy.


    Yes I agree that the USA should have stayed out of the situation, but I reject
    the idea that Mosaddegh was "the good guy".

    He was the good guy in the eyes of the Iranian people, and he was the *legitimate* head of government.


    The shah "appointed" Mossadegh because he had to.  That's whom the Majlis >> chose to be prime minister.

    This is no different than the UK.  The British monarch "appoints" the prime >> minister because the British parliament has determined who it will be, and the
    monarch "appoints" the parliament's choice.

    Yet you cannot show men where Iranian law dictates this

    You're the one claiming the shah had absolute power to appoint and dismiss prime
    ministers. Prove it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to David Hartung on Sun Jul 3 18:16:55 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <CdGdnbQgJvAzpF__nZ2dnUU7-c_NnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Yet you cannot show men where Iranian law dictates this, while I have

    I don't give a shit what iranian law is or was. It's Iran's
    responsibility not ours.

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cassidy Arnold Hutchinson@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 4 03:56:15 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 03 Jul 2022, Rudy Canoza <notgenx33@gmail.com> posted some news:_2rwK.421104$zgr9.169397@fx13.iad:

    On 7/3/2022 5:51 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 15:56, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 1:51 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 13:11, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 11:04 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 11:44, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/3/2022 2:01 AM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/3/22 03:57, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 22:18, Rudy Canoza wrote:
    On 7/2/2022 6:31 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 18:32, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:11:33 -0500, David Hartung
    <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    The Shah held his post rightfully according to the Iranian >>>>>>>>>>>>> constitution.

    My point here is that the entire situation is far ore >>>>>>>>>>>>> complex and nuanced that you or anyone else seem to want >>>>>>>>>>>>> to believe.

    But nothing changes the fact that CIA operatives
    successfully took an elected official out of power, into >>>>>>>>>>>> jail, and empowered a dictator.


    https://irandataportal.syr.edu/wp-content/uploads/iran1925.pd >>>>>>>>>>> f

    If I read the above correctly, government ministers
    (including the prime minister) were appointed by the Shah >>>>>>>>>>> (article 46):

    Fuck off.  Like the UK monarch appointing the prime minister >>>>>>>>>> of the UK, the shah appointed the person the parliament
    *told* him to appoint. The shah could not appoint whomever >>>>>>>>>> he wanted.  He did as he was instructed to do. That's how >>>>>>>>>> all parliamentary systems work, you fucking shitbag.

    The parliament elected the prime minister.

    That is not what the 1925 constitution says.

    One wonders if a part of the problem is not that we are
    insisting on viewing the situation through the lens of our
    western culture,

    No, the problem is that the U.S. was and is an imperial power
    that manipulates events and politics in other countries. 
    That's the problem.

    Mossadegh was the democratically elected prime minister of Iran, >>>>>>> and we overthrew him so we could steal Iran's oil.

    And the Shah was the constitutional head of state, to whom the
    prime minister was accountable.

    No, the prime minister was *not* accountable to the head of state.
    He was accountable to the Majlis (the parliament).  You don't
    know what the fuck you're bullshitting about.

    The shah did not have discretion to appoint whomever he wanted as
    prime minister.

    Support that with the

    Concession of defeat noted, accepted and mocked.  Meanwhile:

        On 28 April 1951, the Shah appointed Mosaddegh as Prime
    Minister after the     Majlis (Parliament of Iran) nominated
    Mosaddegh by a vote of 79–12.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh#Appointment_as_Prime
    _Minister

    A very interesting and informative link. Read through it and you will
    see that neither Pahlavi or Mosaddegh were what many of us would
    consider to be worthy.

    Not the point, and anyway false.. The point is that Mossadegh was the legitimate head of government, and the U.S. had no business mounting a
    coup against him.

    You only say Mossadegh was not "worthy" because he was going against
    what the U.S. and U.K. wanted. That doesn't equate to "not worthy."
    In fact, he was an ardent nationalist, and the Iranian people
    considered him worthy.


    Yes I agree that the USA should have stayed out of the situation, but
    I reject the idea that Mosaddegh was "the good guy".

    He was the good guy in the eyes of the Iranian people, and he was the *legitimate* head of government.


    The shah "appointed" Mossadegh because he had to.  That's whom the
    Majlis chose to be prime minister.

    This is no different than the UK.  The British monarch "appoints"
    the prime minister because the British parliament has determined who
    it will be, and the monarch "appoints" the parliament's choice.

    Yet you cannot show men where Iranian law dictates this

    You're the one claiming the shah had absolute power to appoint and
    dismiss prime ministers. Prove it.

    Are you really that stupid?

    CONSTITUTION OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN

    In the name of God, the compassionate, the merciful.

    We have sent Our apostles with veritable signs and brought down with them scriptures nd the scales of justice, so that men might conduct themselves
    with fairness"

    Article 133

    Ministers will be appointed by the President and will be presented to the Assembly for a vote of confidence. With the change of Assembly, a new vote
    of confidence will not be necessary. The number of ministers and the jurisdiction of each will be determined by law.

    Article 136

    The President can dismiss the ministers and in such a case he must obtain
    a vote of confidence for the new minister(s) from the Assembly. In case
    half of the members of the Council of Ministers are changed after the government has received its vote of onfidence from the Assembly, the
    government must seek a fresh vote of confidence rom the Assembly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 4 12:11:49 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Sun, 3 Jul 2022 19:51:57 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    Yes I agree that the USA should have stayed out of the situation, but I >reject the idea that Mosaddegh was "the good guy".

    *shrug* It doesn't matter who you or I think was the good guy. The
    fact is, as you agree, the US wrongfully interfered in a foreign
    nations internal affairs in the pursuit of US interests.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to cheney@lies.too on Mon Jul 4 12:33:24 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 03:56:15 -0000 (UTC), Cassidy Arnold Hutchinson <cheney@lies.too> wrote:

    CONSTITUTION OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN

    Wrong Constitution but thanks for the try.

    This constitution would have been in effect in 1953. https://fis-iran.org/en/resources/legaldoc/iranconstitution

    You'd think that the guys arguing the technical points of PM selection
    would have found and quoted it.

    "Art. 46. The appointment and dismissal of Ministers is effected by
    virtue of the Royal Decree of the King. "

    There is a large section of articles about how ministers should
    function. Among other articles are these interesting ones.

    " Art. 64. Ministers cannot divest themselves their responsibility by
    pleading verbal or written orders from the King.

    "Art. 65. The National Consultative Assembly, or the Senate, can call
    Ministers to account or bring them to trial.

    "Art. 66. The Law shall determine the responsibility of Ministers and
    the punishments to which they are liable. "

    The Constitution was changed in 1979.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Crayola@21:1/5 to Siri Cruise on Mon Jul 4 22:59:11 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/2022 6:55 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <-6OdnSAaDe7AVV3_nZ2dnUU7-IWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    No excuse, just trying to understand the reasoning of the leadership of
    the day.

    So if Canada and Mexico overthrow our goverment to get fracking
    increased, you're okay because our politics are 'complicated'.
    You don't want to sound like a imperialistic hypocritical twat,
    do you?

    The only thing sounding like a TWAT here is you.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Crayola@21:1/5 to barry on Mon Jul 4 22:55:26 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/2/2022 6:51 PM, barry wrote:
    Rudy Canoza <notgenx33@gmail.com> wrote in news:t%3wK.419636$zgr9.390101@fx13.iad:

    On 7/2/2022 3:36 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 12:44, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <28idnQJelrLJul3_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to
    resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the >>>>> situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in >>>>
    And you continue to make excuses for imperialism. Under
    principles we claim are so important iran gets to deal with
    iran's issues, not Eisenhower.

    No excuse,

    Yes, you're making excuses.

    You keep putting false words in Hartung's mouth.


    Rudy is so full of shit that he doesn't know which end to set on the Toilet.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Vespuci@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Mon Jul 4 23:05:21 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 10:56 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 17:37:56 -0500, David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    It was *exactly* that simple.  Mossadegh was the democratically elected >>> prime minister of Iran, and the US and UK fomented a coup to throw him
    out and make the shah a dictator in order to rape the country and steal
    its oil.  It was exactly that simple.

    Actually it isn't, and if you had half the intelligence you claim, you
    would know it.

    So, instead of arguing that popular knowledge is incorrect and then
    running away, educate us.

    Take us point by point through those nuances and explain how they
    justify the US toppling a government that was elected by the People.

    Swill

    Seeing that you are such an expert on our foreign policy, perhaps you
    can explain what the Hell your lefty administration is doing in the
    Ukraine? Or are you going to continue bleating out your vast ignorance
    on American mid east policy sine WWI. You sir...Are a History deprived
    fool. I thank God, we only have mediocre idiots running the country and definitely not you lefty idiots.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Rudy Crayola@21:1/5 to governor.swill@gmail.com on Mon Jul 4 22:57:44 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 10:54 AM, governor.swill@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sat, 2 Jul 2022 23:51:12 -0000 (UTC), barry <porky202@gmx.net>
    wrote:

    Rudy Canoza <notgenx33@gmail.com> wrote in
    news:t%3wK.419636$zgr9.390101@fx13.iad:

    On 7/2/2022 3:36 PM, David Hartung wrote:
    On 7/2/22 12:44, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <28idnQJelrLJul3_nZ2dnUU7-VnNnZ2d@giganews.com>,
      David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    Under the principle of national sovereignity republican hold
    sacred except for everyone else, iran's situation was for iran to >>>>>>> resolve.

    On that you may be correct, but that doesn't change the fact that the >>>>>> situation was probably not as simple as it has been made out to be in >>>>>
    And you continue to make excuses for imperialism. Under
    principles we claim are so important iran gets to deal with
    iran's issues, not Eisenhower.

    No excuse,

    Yes, you're making excuses.

    You keep putting false words in Hartung's mouth.

    She isn't putting words in his mouth. She's posting an evaluation of
    the words he *has* said. You might want to back track the thread.
    Hartung claimed the overthrow of Guatemala's government was more
    "nuanced" than the US simply toppling a government. He also disagreed
    with the facts of the Iranian coup of 1953.

    So does the rest of the world Mr Slops. Aren't you due for a stroke or something?



    Swill

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Vespuci@21:1/5 to Siri Cruise on Mon Jul 4 23:08:10 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On 7/3/2022 3:35 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <8dSdndWZ2MQBRFz_nZ2dnUU7-TOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    How about checking to see if the actions taken by Mossadegh were
    constitutional?

    Fuck you. That isn't up to US and UK to protect UK oil profits.
    It's up to iranians. Stop making excuses for US crimes.

    Go back to playing drop the soap with Slops and Rudy. Leave the adults
    to handle American interests. Obviously you do not have our best options
    in mind.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Siri Cruise@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 4 22:19:56 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    In article <ta0df7$3kg93$2@dont-email.me>, Vespuci <AV@1492.com>
    wrote:

    On 7/3/2022 3:35 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <8dSdndWZ2MQBRFz_nZ2dnUU7-TOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    How about checking to see if the actions taken by Mossadegh were
    constitutional?

    Fuck you. That isn't up to US and UK to protect UK oil profits.
    It's up to iranians. Stop making excuses for US crimes.

    Go back to playing drop the soap with Slops and Rudy. Leave the adults
    to handle American interests. Obviously you do not have our best options
    in mind.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV4lLfMMpfM

    God Bless Vespucciland

    --
    :-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted. @
    'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' /|\ Discordia: not just a religion but also a parody. This post / \
    I am an Andrea Chen sockpuppet. insults Islam. Mohammed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Vespuci on Tue Jul 5 07:49:20 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 23:05:21 -0500, Vespuci <AV@1492.com> wrote:

    Seeing that you are such an expert on our foreign policy, perhaps you
    can explain what the Hell your lefty administration is doing in the
    Ukraine? Or are you going to continue bleating out your vast ignorance
    on American mid east policy sine WWI. You sir...Are a History deprived
    fool. I thank God, we only have mediocre idiots running the country and >definitely not you lefty idiots.

    Coward.

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From governor.swill@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Vespuci on Tue Jul 5 07:48:25 2022
    XPost: alt.politics.democrats, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh, talk.politics.guns
    XPost: or.politics

    On Mon, 4 Jul 2022 23:08:10 -0500, Vespuci <AV@1492.com> wrote:

    On 7/3/2022 3:35 PM, Siri Cruise wrote:
    In article <8dSdndWZ2MQBRFz_nZ2dnUU7-TOdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
    David Hartung <david@Hotmail.com> wrote:

    How about checking to see if the actions taken by Mossadegh were
    constitutional?

    Fuck you. That isn't up to US and UK to protect UK oil profits.
    It's up to iranians. Stop making excuses for US crimes.

    Go back to playing drop the soap with Slops and Rudy. Leave the adults
    to handle American interests. Obviously you do not have our best options
    in mind.

    What's your damage, asshole?

    Swill
    --

    Republican congressman Andrew Clyde (GA):
    "You know, if you didn't know the tv footage was video from
    January 6, you'd actually think it was a normal tourist visit."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)