• Is it ok to use an abrasive toothpaste 3+ times a day

    From Ottavio Caruso@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jun 25 08:49:10 2021
    Hi,

    I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking Soda Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves a fresh
    and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's possibly
    more abrasive than other toothpastes.

    Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
    times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?

    --
    Ottavio Caruso

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  • From Steven Bornfeld@21:1/5 to Ottavio Caruso on Sat Jun 26 13:07:10 2021
    On 6/25/2021 3:49 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    Hi,

    I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking Soda Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves a fresh
    and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's possibly
    more abrasive than other toothpastes.

    Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
    times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?


    Baking soda is really not very abrasive; I just looked up the
    ingredients and there are no other abrasives in it. So IF your brushing technique is good using it shouldn't be a problem.

    Steve

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  • From Ottavio Caruso@21:1/5 to Steven Bornfeld on Sat Jun 26 23:38:33 2021
    On 26/06/2021 18:07, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    On 6/25/2021 3:49 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    Hi,

    I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking
    Soda Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves a
    fresh and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's
    possibly more abrasive than other toothpastes.

    Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
    times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?


    Baking soda is really not very abrasive; I just looked up the
    ingredients and there are no other abrasives in it.  So IF your brushing technique is good using it shouldn't be a problem.

    Steve

    According to https://www.williamsonperio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Toothpaste-Abrasiveness-Ranked-by-RDA.pdf


    and http://kincardinedentistry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Abrasiveness-Index-of-Common-Toothpastes.pdf

    it is listed as highly abrasive.

    --
    Ottavio Caruso

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  • From Frank <"frank@21:1/5 to Ottavio Caruso on Sun Jun 27 18:51:50 2021
    On 6/26/2021 6:38 PM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    On 26/06/2021 18:07, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    On 6/25/2021 3:49 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    Hi,

    I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking
    Soda Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves a
    fresh and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's
    possibly more abrasive than other toothpastes.

    Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
    times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?


    Baking soda is really not very abrasive; I just looked up the
    ingredients and there are no other abrasives in it.  So IF your
    brushing technique is good using it shouldn't be a problem.

    Steve

    According to https://www.williamsonperio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Toothpaste-Abrasiveness-Ranked-by-RDA.pdf


    and http://kincardinedentistry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Abrasiveness-Index-of-Common-Toothpastes.pdf


    it is listed as highly abrasive.


    According to the safety data sheet of a similar product the abrasive is probably "Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free". I do not think
    it is as abrasive as the sand it is made from. If it were it would wear
    out your enamel.

    A toothpaste abrasive should wear away plaque but not tooth enamel.

    I have an old bridge that originally had an acrylic tooth-like coating
    which is no longer there due to brushing which wore it away. Fortunately
    on the side of the mouth it is not noticeable. I used to use toothpaste
    to polish an acrylic watch lens and people have used toothpaste to
    polish plastic headlight lenses. It is abrasive enough to remove a
    fogged layer.

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  • From Steven Bornfeld@21:1/5 to Frank on Mon Jun 28 13:06:36 2021
    On 6/27/2021 6:51 PM, Frank wrote:
    On 6/26/2021 6:38 PM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    On 26/06/2021 18:07, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    On 6/25/2021 3:49 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    Hi,

    I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking
    Soda Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves
    a fresh and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's
    possibly more abrasive than other toothpastes.

    Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
    times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?


    Baking soda is really not very abrasive; I just looked up the
    ingredients and there are no other abrasives in it.  So IF your
    brushing technique is good using it shouldn't be a problem.

    Steve

    According to
    https://www.williamsonperio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Toothpaste-Abrasiveness-Ranked-by-RDA.pdf


    and
    http://kincardinedentistry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Abrasiveness-Index-of-Common-Toothpastes.pdf


    it is listed as highly abrasive.


    According to the safety data sheet of a similar product the abrasive is probably "Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free".  I do not think
    it is as abrasive as the sand it is made from.  If it were it would wear
    out your enamel.

    A toothpaste abrasive should wear away plaque but not tooth enamel.

    I have an old bridge that originally had an acrylic tooth-like coating
    which is no longer there due to brushing which wore it away. Fortunately
    on the side of the mouth it is not noticeable. I used to use toothpaste
    to polish an acrylic watch lens and people have used toothpaste to
    polish plastic headlight lenses.  It is abrasive enough to remove a
    fogged layer.


    Somehow when I read the ingredients list, I didn't see silica listed.
    Either that list omitted it or my eyes are failing.
    In any case, silica has to be abrasive. There would be no other reason
    to include it.
    As far as acrylic veneer crown and bridge, they were already well on
    their way out by the time we had to process some in dental school in the early-mid '70s--the "Ceramco" porcelain fused to metal process was
    introduced in the mid-late '60s, though it took a while to catch on. We
    were taught that natural bristle toothbrushes were less abrasive on
    acrylic veneers, but they aren't terribly easy to find. And overall, I
    think most dentists would prefer their patients use nylon-bristle brushes.

    Steve

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  • From Frank <"frank@21:1/5 to Steven Bornfeld on Mon Jun 28 18:46:51 2021
    On 6/28/2021 1:06 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free

    It was copied from an SDS for one of their whitening toothpastes and how
    it is made is described in this Wiki article:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumed_silica

    My acrylic veneer bridge, I believe, was pre-1970.

    I have two bridges over 55 years old and have been surprised how long
    they have lasted.

    I lost a third bridge on front teeth I mentioned here a while back
    replaced by a flexible acrylic bridge and never brush it with toothpaste
    as I know it is abrasive to acrylic.

    Frank

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  • From Steven Bornfeld@21:1/5 to Frank on Tue Jun 29 16:16:13 2021
    On 6/28/2021 6:46 PM, Frank wrote:
    On 6/28/2021 1:06 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free

    It was copied from an SDS for one of their whitening toothpastes and how
    it is made is described in this Wiki article:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumed_silica

    My acrylic veneer bridge, I believe, was pre-1970.

    I have two bridges over 55 years old and have been surprised how long
    they have lasted.

    I lost a third bridge on front teeth I mentioned here a while back
    replaced by a flexible acrylic bridge and never brush it with toothpaste
    as I know it is abrasive to acrylic.

    Frank




    I had a patient--I'm thinking in the early 2000s--this gentleman in his
    80s. He'd been in a concentration camp during the war. When he was
    liberated, he said he'd spent a year in a Swiss hospital. They did 4
    large gold/acrylic veneer bridges in each quadrant of his mouth. Now 60
    years later, the acrylic was all worn; the gum had shrunken back so you
    could almost put your finger under them.
    One of the teeth holding one of the bridges was rotten--we replaced it.
    When that was finished, I asked him about the other 3--he refused to
    replace them. "If I did, I'd be too beautiful," he said. "My wife would
    get suspicious."

    Steve

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  • From Ottavio Caruso@21:1/5 to Steven Bornfeld on Thu Jul 1 14:39:53 2021
    On 28/06/2021 18:06, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    silica has to be abrasive.  There would be no other reason to include it.


    I just wonder what makes a toothpaste abrasive. What ingredients should
    I avoid? I believe silica has to be the most abrasive, correct me if I'm
    wrong.

    --
    Ottavio Caruso

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  • From Frank <"frank@21:1/5 to Ottavio Caruso on Thu Jul 1 10:50:25 2021
    On 7/1/2021 9:39 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
    On 28/06/2021 18:06, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    silica has to be abrasive.  There would be no other reason to include it.


    I just wonder what makes a toothpaste abrasive. What ingredients should
    I avoid? I believe silica has to be the most abrasive, correct me if I'm wrong.


    I have been pondering the abrasiveness of fumed silica which is made
    from sand which is very abrasive.

    There is a Mohs' hardness scale where you see diamond on top as the most abrasive:

    https://www.reade.com/reade-resources/reference-educational/reade-reference-chart-particle-property-briefings/32-mohs-hardness-of-abrasives


    Looking up acrylic I see Mohs is 3-4 so anything with higher Mohs would
    abraid it. Tooth enamel appears to be 5.

    Personally I would avoid using toothpaste with fumed silica.

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  • From Frank <"frank@21:1/5 to Steven Bornfeld on Thu Jul 1 10:55:08 2021
    On 6/29/2021 4:16 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    On 6/28/2021 6:46 PM, Frank wrote:
    On 6/28/2021 1:06 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free

    It was copied from an SDS for one of their whitening toothpastes and
    how it is made is described in this Wiki article:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumed_silica

    My acrylic veneer bridge, I believe, was pre-1970.

    I have two bridges over 55 years old and have been surprised how long
    they have lasted.

    I lost a third bridge on front teeth I mentioned here a while back
    replaced by a flexible acrylic bridge and never brush it with
    toothpaste as I know it is abrasive to acrylic.

    Frank




    I had a patient--I'm thinking in the early 2000s--this gentleman in his 80s.  He'd been in a concentration camp during the war.  When he was liberated, he said he'd spent a year in a Swiss hospital.  They did 4
    large gold/acrylic veneer bridges in each quadrant of his mouth.  Now 60 years later, the acrylic was all worn; the gum had shrunken back so you
    could almost put your finger under them.
    One of the teeth holding one of the bridges was rotten--we replaced it.
     When that was finished, I asked him about the other 3--he refused to replace them. "If I did, I'd be too beautiful," he said. "My wife would
    get suspicious."

    Steve

    Had I known maybe 20 years ago when I got a partial that my bridges
    would have held up I would have gotten implants. Now over 80, not sure
    it is worth it.

    I might have mentioned a friend's brother that got them about age 85 and
    after work fully done needed a quadruple bypass. Turns out he lived to 99.

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  • From Steven Bornfeld@21:1/5 to Frank on Thu Jul 1 13:11:20 2021
    On 7/1/2021 10:55 AM, Frank wrote:


    Had I known maybe 20 years ago when I got a partial that my bridges
    would have held up I would have gotten implants.  Now over 80, not sure
    it is worth it.

    I might have mentioned a friend's brother that got them about age 85 and after work fully done needed a quadruple bypass.  Turns out he lived to 99.

    I wouldn't rule out implants based on age alone. It becomes more
    worthwhile of course if you don't function well with your partial, and
    if a new partial would not be expected to improve your function.

    Steve

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  • From Frank <"frank@21:1/5 to Steven Bornfeld on Thu Jul 1 13:34:18 2021
    On 7/1/2021 1:11 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    On 7/1/2021 10:55 AM, Frank wrote:


    Had I known maybe 20 years ago when I got a partial that my bridges
    would have held up I would have gotten implants.  Now over 80, not
    sure it is worth it.

    I might have mentioned a friend's brother that got them about age 85
    and after work fully done needed a quadruple bypass.  Turns out he
    lived to 99.

    I wouldn't rule out implants based on age alone. It becomes more
    worthwhile of course if you don't function well with your partial, and
    if a new partial would not be expected to improve your function.

    Steve

    My partial works fine except for biting into something like a apple.
    The flexible acrylic is fine and better than the previous one with wires
    going around back teeth. Every now and then I use a little adhesive if
    eating a sandwich.

    My brother had problems with his and got implants and now I hear one of
    the implants failed and he is having extra work done.

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  • From Brian Sandle@21:1/5 to Frank on Thu Jul 1 14:54:57 2021
    On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 5:34:21 AM UTC+12, Frank wrote:
    On 7/1/2021 1:11 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    On 7/1/2021 10:55 AM, Frank wrote:


    Had I known maybe 20 years ago when I got a partial that my bridges
    would have held up I would have gotten implants. Now over 80, not
    sure it is worth it.

    I might have mentioned a friend's brother that got them about age 85
    and after work fully done needed a quadruple bypass. Turns out he
    lived to 99.

    I wouldn't rule out implants based on age alone. It becomes more worthwhile of course if you don't function well with your partial, and
    if a new partial would not be expected to improve your function.

    Steve
    My partial works fine except for biting into something like a apple.
    The flexible acrylic is fine and better than the previous one with wires going around back teeth. Every now and then I use a little adhesive if eating a sandwich.

    My brother had problems with his and got implants and now I hear one of
    the implants failed and he is having extra work done.
    What is known about the biochemistry of how calcium, phosphate, magnesium, fluoride are ordered to form apatite to repair tooth surface? Can it just happen randomly or might bacterial colonies of some types help as they develop layers on the tooth
    surface? Though I guess the first layer to develop after abrasive brushing would contain the acid forming Strep mutans?

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  • From Steven Bornfeld@21:1/5 to Brian Sandle on Thu Jul 1 21:10:26 2021
    On 7/1/2021 5:54 PM, Brian Sandle wrote:
    What is known about the biochemistry of how calcium, phosphate, magnesium, fluoride are ordered to form apatite to repair tooth surface? Can it just happen randomly or might bacterial colonies of some types help as they develop layers on the tooth
    surface? Though I guess the first layer to develop after abrasive brushing would contain the acid forming Strep mutans?


    There is an equilibrium of ions moving in and out at the enamel surface;
    a persistent increase in concentration of calcium and phosphate ions
    will tend to increase mineralization of enamel; a relative paucity of
    ions, or a decrease in pH, will tend to move ions out of the enamel surface. After cleaning, the first thing that collects on the surface is a
    protein layer known as salivary pellicle. If left undisturbed, this
    will be colonized by bacteria of a variety of species. Most bacteria implicated in decay require oxygen; many implicated in periodontal
    disease (not all) do not. For this reason, decay-causing bacteria
    appear more quickly than perio d. causing bacteria.
    Bacteria can utilize calcium ions too, but they process it within the
    plaque and form dental calculus (tartar); it does not get incorporated
    in the surface of the teeth.
    Fluoride replaces hydroxyl groups in hydroxyapatite of the enamel to
    form fluorapatite; it is more resistant to dissolution by bacterial
    acids, which accounts for its anti-decay properties.

    Steve

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  • From Brian Sandle@21:1/5 to Brian Sandle on Fri Jul 2 04:37:34 2021
    On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 11:15:33 PM UTC+12, Brian Sandle wrote:
    On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 1:10:32 PM UTC+12, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    On 7/1/2021 5:54 PM, Brian Sandle wrote:
    What is known about the biochemistry of how calcium, phosphate, magnesium, fluoride are ordered to form apatite to repair tooth surface? Can it just happen randomly or might bacterial colonies of some types help as they develop layers on the tooth
    surface? Though I guess the first layer to develop after abrasive brushing would contain the acid forming Strep mutans?

    There is an equilibrium of ions moving in and out at the enamel surface;
    a persistent increase in concentration of calcium and phosphate ions
    will tend to increase mineralization of enamel; a relative paucity of ions, or a decrease in pH, will tend to move ions out of the enamel surface.
    After cleaning, the first thing that collects on the surface is a
    protein layer known as salivary pellicle. If left undisturbed, this
    will be colonized by bacteria of a variety of species. Most bacteria implicated in decay require oxygen; many implicated in periodontal
    disease (not all) do not. For this reason, decay-causing bacteria
    appear more quickly than perio d. causing bacteria.
    Bacteria can utilize calcium ions too, but they process it within the plaque and form dental calculus (tartar); it does not get incorporated
    in the surface of the teeth.
    Fluoride replaces hydroxyl groups in hydroxyapatite of the enamel to
    form fluorapatite; it is more resistant to dissolution by bacterial
    acids, which accounts for its anti-decay properties.

    Steve
    Are you able to access this?: https://groups.google.com/g/sci.med.dentistry/c/Dv2V3Kd5FrE/m/bX_qCHVZ0noJ
    Steve wrote: "Fluoride replaces hydroxyl groups in hydroxyapatite of the enamel to
    form fluorapatite"
    Living organisms may concentrate minerals. You may have heard how seaweed concentrates iodine very much.
    We need more experimentation how bacteria in mature dental plaque may concentrate fluoride and other minerals (magnesium, calcium, phosphorus on the tooth surface to concentrations greater than that of fluoridated water. And do it from saliva whose
    fluoride content is lower than that of fluoridated water.

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  • From Brian Sandle@21:1/5 to Steven Bornfeld on Fri Jul 2 04:15:31 2021
    On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 1:10:32 PM UTC+12, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
    On 7/1/2021 5:54 PM, Brian Sandle wrote:
    What is known about the biochemistry of how calcium, phosphate, magnesium, fluoride are ordered to form apatite to repair tooth surface? Can it just happen randomly or might bacterial colonies of some types help as they develop layers on the tooth
    surface? Though I guess the first layer to develop after abrasive brushing would contain the acid forming Strep mutans?

    There is an equilibrium of ions moving in and out at the enamel surface;
    a persistent increase in concentration of calcium and phosphate ions
    will tend to increase mineralization of enamel; a relative paucity of
    ions, or a decrease in pH, will tend to move ions out of the enamel surface. After cleaning, the first thing that collects on the surface is a
    protein layer known as salivary pellicle. If left undisturbed, this
    will be colonized by bacteria of a variety of species. Most bacteria implicated in decay require oxygen; many implicated in periodontal
    disease (not all) do not. For this reason, decay-causing bacteria
    appear more quickly than perio d. causing bacteria.
    Bacteria can utilize calcium ions too, but they process it within the
    plaque and form dental calculus (tartar); it does not get incorporated
    in the surface of the teeth.
    Fluoride replaces hydroxyl groups in hydroxyapatite of the enamel to
    form fluorapatite; it is more resistant to dissolution by bacterial
    acids, which accounts for its anti-decay properties.

    Steve
    Are you able to access this?: https://groups.google.com/g/sci.med.dentistry/c/Dv2V3Kd5FrE/m/bX_qCHVZ0noJ

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