• Are there possible breakthroughs that will make all current CAS so obso

    From Peter Luschny@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 2 13:50:40 2022
    Richard Fateman asked this recently.

    They are probably closer than you think, if they are not already here.

    Kevin Buzzard today said: "You know how these AI people say that they're going to get 'Lean' to solve an IMO problem automatically? And we math people know this will never happen because IMO problems are hard."

    According to this new blog post of the OpenAI people they solved not one but two:

    "Solving (Some) Formal Math Olympiad Problems" https://openai.com/blog/formal-math/

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  • From Richard Fateman@21:1/5 to Peter Luschny on Wed Feb 2 17:01:42 2022
    On 2/2/22 1:50 PM, Peter Luschny wrote:
    Richard Fateman asked this recently.

    They are probably closer than you think, if they are not already here.

    Kevin Buzzard today said: "You know how these AI people say that they're going to get 'Lean' to solve an IMO problem automatically? And we math people know this will never happen because IMO problems are hard."

    According to this new blog post of the OpenAI people they solved not one but two:

    "Solving (Some) Formal Math Olympiad Problems" https://openai.com/blog/formal-math/



    And yet neural networks can't add arbitrary precision integers.
    Last I heard.

    so it can't integrate x^some_explicit_large_integer.

    You can prove some of the theorems some of the time.
    but...

    Did I just prove NN can't integrate even polynomials?
    RJF

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  • From =?UTF-8?B?0JLQsNC70LXRgNC40Lkg0JfQs@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 2 22:53:42 2022
    Of course this is false, AIs can do high precision arithmetics.

    Just like us NNs can hallucinate, dream, do math and classical
    counterexample is this breakthrough. https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/no-more-worrying-about-nomenclature-ai-will-tell-you-what-that-chemical-is-called/4014170.article

    Try it: https://app.syntelly.com/smiles2iupac

    SMILES desciption of chemicals requires very complex math and
    guys specifically archived this level.

    Also, Google recently managed to emulate emotions in NNs...

    Also, I do not think you quite understand the level of modern NNs,
    if they are in the chip, for example.

    https://datascience.stackexchange.com/a/19039/128423

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  • From Momchil Peychev@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 3 03:13:39 2022
    Another viable approach is combining neural (AI) models and symbolic methods, e.g. http://www.neurosymbolic.org/

    You don't need the NN to add numbers or integrate polynomials. But a NN can be useful to tell you "OK, try this tactic now, it may be useful here". Where the tactic is executed by some formal method (e.g., Lean or Rubi rule, etc.).

    Moreover, there has also been some progress on the competitive programming side, not only competitive mathematics: https://alphacode.deepmind.com/

    Is there any strong argument *against* trying to combine the best of both worlds?

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  • From Richard Fateman@21:1/5 to Momchil Peychev on Wed Feb 23 21:10:34 2022
    I know of no reason that suggests it is impossible to combine methods as you indicate.
    There may be other viable approaches, and the question is whether it is worthwhile to pursue
    this (or other) approaches.
    Here's another approach (not original with me). You can write out the proofs of all mathematical
    theorems by setting a huge number of monkeys up with keyboards, and having them type randomly.
    They will, as is well known, produce all of Shakespeare's plays. But all the theorems, too. And their proofs.
    Now today, we could simulate the monkeys with GPUs, making this way way easier.

    Now if you are using NNs to choose tactics, I would guess that would be more viable than the
    monkeys. But would you (say) invest money in a company pursuing this?
    In my experience, humans have puzzled over various tactics in computer algebra system design,
    such as ... of the 5 or so polynomial greatest common divisor algorithms implemented in
    Maxima, which should we use for particular polynomials p, q? Do you think a NN could be
    trained for this decision? As I recall, the decision for optimally computing g=GCD(p,q)
    is easy if you know all of g,p,q. If you don't have g, there are a few obvious cheap
    heuristics that are easy for a human to figure out, but they are not of general use.
    Now I can't prove it is impossible to come up with a NN solution --- in fact if you have
    many monkeys, you can generate all polynomials of length 1: a,b,c,d,....z,0,1,2,3,4....9
    All polynomials of length 2 [just 2 digit numbers .. 10,11,....,99], All polynomials of length 3
    [2*a, a+1, a+2, ....a+9, a+b, ... z+9,...] . You might have clever monkeys that do this in strictly alphabetical
    order. You can then compute all the GCD of all pairs of polynomials with fewer than X characters each
    using each of the candidate GCD algorithms, and remember which one was fastest. Then when
    you need to compute a GCD, you can expect that the NN will tell you which algorithm is fastest.
    Of course, the NN might also just tell you the answer GCD.

    This exhaustive search through all pairs of syntactically valid polynomials ... uh, maybe not
    the right task??

    So how did humans choose the right algorithm? They surmise from various perspectives which
    algorithm is likely to be fastest, do some random tests, and maybe allow the user to choose
    another algorithm based on special application-specific knowledge. For instance, if you
    know in advance that g=GCD(p,q) is very likely to be 1, you use one algorithm. If you
    expect that g is of degree almost as large as the degree of p or q, you use another.

    Now if there are a set of places in a CAS where a NN can make a big difference in
    tactical decisions based on the mathematical inputs to an algorithm, I would be interested in learning of them. The neurosymbolic effort seems aimed at designing
    a framework -- a meta system to support the joining of distinct modes. Eh, no argument in principle. Is it better to just do Alpha 0 or to have an assistant that
    says "don't bother- we know this branch is infeasible for algorithmic reasons". I vote for the one with the assistant.

    But of the target applications, none of them look towards making the
    tactical decisions in a computer algebra system. Or even where those are. Typically, if you are really really at a loss as to whether to do Plan A or Plan B
    and you know one of them is going to be 100x faster, you do them both,
    sharing resources. The first one to finish shuts down the other process.
    How bad could this be? Running 2 processes, even interleaved on one CPU...
    it should take about 2X the fastest one.
    For the actual neurosymbolic application areas I suspect there may be many more than 2 plans, or some other important difficulties. And then combining strategies may be a winner.
    But we are talking about computer math here, and what decisions do you think
    a NN can make, based on analysis of input?



    On Thursday, February 3, 2022 at 3:13:40 AM UTC-8, Momchil Peychev wrote:
    Another viable approach is combining neural (AI) models and symbolic methods, e.g. http://www.neurosymbolic.org/

    You don't need the NN to add numbers or integrate polynomials. But a NN can be useful to tell you "OK, try this tactic now, it may be useful here". Where the tactic is executed by some formal method (e.g., Lean or Rubi rule, etc.).

    Moreover, there has also been some progress on the competitive programming side, not only competitive mathematics: https://alphacode.deepmind.com/

    Is there any strong argument *against* trying to combine the best of both worlds?

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  • From Richard Fateman@21:1/5 to val.za...@gmail.com on Wed Feb 23 20:31:09 2022
    On Wednesday, February 2, 2022 at 10:53:44 PM UTC-8, val.za...@gmail.com wrote:
    Of course this is false, AIs can do high precision arithmetics.

    You fail to prove your assertion. I don't know what you mean by "AIs" but if they are neural networks, you are simply wrong.

    Just like us NNs can hallucinate, dream, do math and classical
    counterexample is this breakthrough. https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/no-more-worrying-about-nomenclature-ai-will-tell-you-what-that-chemical-is-called/4014170.article

    Try it: https://app.syntelly.com/smiles2iupac

    SMILES desciption of chemicals requires very complex math and
    guys specifically archived this level.

    Also, Google recently managed to emulate emotions in NNs...

    Also, I do not think you quite understand the level of modern NNs,
    if they are in the chip, for example.

    https://datascience.stackexchange.com/a/19039/128423

    that article does not mention the word "arithmetic". So what is your point?

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  • From =?UTF-8?B?0JLQsNC70LXRgNC40Lkg0JfQs@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 5 16:34:58 2022
    "I don't know what you mean by "AIs" but if they are neural networks, you are simply wrong."

    You were saying? This neural network finds algorithm to multiply 4x4 x 4x4 matrices with just 47 multiplications.

    Before 48 was best, with naive algorithm being n^3, so 4^3, so 64. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05172-4/figures/6

    https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/578342/number-of-elementary-multiplications-for-multiplying-4x4-matrices/4546116#4546116

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