• Rio e riu (pt)

    From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Wed May 15 13:12:57 2024
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro
    formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    Cf. período, que muitos parece dizer como periúdo, porque, penso eu, o
    acento não cai no i, mas em <io> pronunciado [iu] ou [iw].


    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Antonio Marques@21:1/5 to Ruud Harmsen on Wed May 15 16:06:24 2024
    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    I laugh of January

    https://br.pinterest.com/pin/576249714819711035/



    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    *alguma (otherwise it suggests you have the exact difference in mind -
    which you do have, but then the entire tone of the paragraph changes
    markedly)

    *pensaria que em

    It depends on dialect. Around Lisbon there's a tendency to pronounce final
    -io as a diphthong (whatever the word).

    (Many people also have the mistaken impression that the norm is based on
    the speech of that area.)


    Cf. período, que muitos parece dizer como periúdo, porque, penso eu, o acento não cai no i, mas em <io> pronunciado [iu] ou [iw].

    *parecem

    -íodo is remarkably problematic for our phonotactics, and what people do is substitute -iúdo. A stressed [iw] diphthong doesn't work either, although
    we sometimes try to make it do.
    [Ew] is the other diphthong we have trouble stressing non-finally.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Antonio Marques@21:1/5 to Ruud Harmsen on Wed May 15 16:10:14 2024
    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    Enteiro?!

    (...) que a terra na que vives non quer bágoas,
    percisa homes enteiros pra libertá-la (...)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 10:01:54 2024
    Wed, 15 May 2024 16:06:24 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro
    formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    I laugh of January

    https://br.pinterest.com/pin/576249714819711035/



    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em

    Diferença. Interference from Interlingua (although I have hardly used
    that language recently).

    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    *alguma (otherwise it suggests you have the exact difference in mind -
    which you do have, but then the entire tone of the paragraph changes >markedly)

    *pensaria que em

    Couldn't the colon serve the same function as the 'que'?

    It depends on dialect. Around Lisbon there's a tendency to pronounce final >-io as a diphthong (whatever the word).

    (Many people also have the mistaken impression that the norm is based on
    the speech of that area.)

    The 'folksy' pronunciation in Lisbon is markedly different, I think.

    Cf. período, que muitos parece dizer como periúdo, porque, penso eu, o
    acento não cai no i, mas em <io> pronunciado [iu] ou [iw].

    *parecem

    You're right, of course.
    But:
    Parece que muitos dizem ...
    ou
    Parece que muitos digam ...
    ?

    -íodo is remarkably problematic for our phonotactics, and what people do is >substitute -iúdo. A stressed [iw] diphthong doesn't work either, although
    we sometimes try to make it do.
    [Ew] is the other diphthong we have trouble stressing non-finally.

    As in neutro and treuze (13). :0)

    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 10:03:42 2024
    Wed, 15 May 2024 16:10:14 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    Enteiro?!

    Completo? The whole of the diphthong, the diphthong as a whole.

    (...) que a terra na que vives non quer bágoas,
    percisa homes enteiros pra libertá-la (...)

    ??
    A rather old text? Homens?
    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 10:09:46 2024
    Thu, 16 May 2024 10:03:42 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
    scribeva:

    Wed, 15 May 2024 16:10:14 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques ><no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    Enteiro?!

    Completo? The whole of the diphthong, the diphthong as a whole.

    (...) que a terra na que vives non quer bágoas,
    percisa homes enteiros pra libertá-la (...)

    ??
    A rather old text? Homens?

    https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/bágoa https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/inteiro
    (Intender e entender are also quite different.)

    https://genius.com/Luar-na-lubre-cantiga-de-berce-lyrics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRi5Ro67MWs https://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantiga_de_berce
    Wiegelied.
    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 10:43:17 2024
    Thu, 16 May 2024 10:01:54 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
    scribeva:

    Wed, 15 May 2024 16:06:24 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
    -íodo is remarkably problematic for our phonotactics, and what people do is >>substitute -iúdo. A stressed [iw] diphthong doesn't work either, although >>we sometimes try to make it do.
    [Ew] is the other diphthong we have trouble stressing non-finally.

    As in neutro and treuze (13). :0)

    That's [eu]. So a better example is <céu>. Are there any others?

    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 10:42:02 2024
    Wed, 15 May 2024 16:06:24 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro
    formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    I laugh of January

    https://br.pinterest.com/pin/576249714819711035/



    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    *alguma (otherwise it suggests you have the exact difference in mind -
    which you do have, but then the entire tone of the paragraph changes >markedly)

    So the difference between:
    Is there a difference?
    Is there any difference?
    is more marked in Portuguese than in English?

    In Dutch, "Is er een verschil?" can mean both, and "Is er enig
    verschil?" sounds a bit too emphatic, is somewhat formal,
    old-fashioned, and maybe reeks of badly translated English.

    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Antonio Marques@21:1/5 to Ruud Harmsen on Thu May 16 12:56:55 2024
    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    Wed, 15 May 2024 16:10:14 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    Enteiro?!

    Completo? The whole of the diphthong, the diphthong as a whole.

    Either 'inteiro' or 'como
    um todo' or 'na sua totalidade'. I'm not sure why 'completo' doesn't work.



    (...) que a terra na que vives non quer bágoas,
    percisa homes enteiros pra libertá-la (...)

    ??
    A rather old text? Homens?

    By now you've found the source, but -es for -ens is the usual form for
    older people in the portuguese countryside.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Antonio Marques@21:1/5 to Ruud Harmsen on Thu May 16 13:03:13 2024
    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    Thu, 16 May 2024 10:03:42 +0200: Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com>
    scribeva:

    Wed, 15 May 2024 16:10:14 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
    <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    Enteiro?!

    Completo? The whole of the diphthong, the diphthong as a whole.

    (...) que a terra na que vives non quer bágoas,
    percisa homes enteiros pra libertá-la (...)

    ??
    A rather old text? Homens?

    https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/bágoa https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/inteiro
    (Intender e entender are also quite different.)

    Well, there's intender as in 'superintendent', but also as a folksy pronunciation of entender. (and there's no variant that connects to 'intention'.)


    https://genius.com/Luar-na-lubre-cantiga-de-berce-lyrics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRi5Ro67MWs https://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantiga_de_berce
    Wiegelied.

    https://www.ouvirmusica.com.br/fuxan-os-ventos/1244026/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From wugi@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 18:37:15 2024
    Op 15/05/2024 om 13:12 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    googletrans and the ones I tried here* make no difference rio/riu:
    * https://freetools.textmagic.com/text-to-speech

    Cf. período, que muitos parece dizer como periúdo, porque, penso eu, o acento não cai no i, mas em <io> pronunciado [iu] ou [iw].

    But none of them stresses í in período. Mostly the stress appears to be
    on per-: périyodu or sth like that.

    --
    guido wugi

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 21:32:20 2024
    Thu, 16 May 2024 13:03:14 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    Wed, 15 May 2024 16:06:24 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques
    <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro >>>> formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    I laugh of January

    https://br.pinterest.com/pin/576249714819711035/



    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    *alguma (otherwise it suggests you have the exact difference in mind -
    which you do have, but then the entire tone of the paragraph changes
    markedly)

    So the difference between:
    Is there a difference?
    Is there any difference?
    is more marked in Portuguese than in English?

    In Dutch, "Is er een verschil?" can mean both, and "Is er enig
    verschil?" sounds a bit too emphatic, is somewhat formal,
    old-fashioned, and maybe reeks of badly translated English.


    I would venture that

    há diferença? / há alguma diferença? both mean
    - Is there a difference?
    - Is there any difference?

    whereas

    há uma diferença (...)? means
    - Is there a certain difference (...)?

    Interesting. I don't 'feel' such things. Not enough exposure, I guess.

    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 21:36:02 2024
    Thu, 16 May 2024 13:03:13 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/bágoa
    https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/inteiro
    (Intender e entender are also quite different.)

    Well, there's intender as in 'superintendent', but also as a folksy >pronunciation of entender. (and there's no variant that connects to >'intention'.)

    There is, according to https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/intender
    "ter intenção de", unless intenção doesn't mean intention. https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/intenção
    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 21:38:12 2024
    Thu, 16 May 2024 18:37:15 +0200: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:

    Op 15/05/2024 om 13:12 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro
    formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    googletrans and the ones I tried here* make no difference rio/riu:
    * https://freetools.textmagic.com/text-to-speech

    Cf. período, que muitos parece dizer como periúdo, porque, penso eu, o
    acento não cai no i, mas em <io> pronunciado [iu] ou [iw].

    But none of them stresses í in período. Mostly the stress appears to be
    on per-: périyodu or sth like that.

    No. That vowel is often mute: priúdu.
    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From wugi@21:1/5 to All on Thu May 16 22:11:37 2024
    Op 16/05/2024 om 21:38 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
    Thu, 16 May 2024 18:37:15 +0200: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:

    Op 15/05/2024 om 13:12 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro >>> formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    googletrans and the ones I tried here* make no difference rio/riu:
    * https://freetools.textmagic.com/text-to-speech

    Cf. período, que muitos parece dizer como periúdo, porque, penso eu, o >>> acento não cai no i, mas em <io> pronunciado [iu] ou [iw].

    But none of them stresses í in período. Mostly the stress appears to be
    on per-: périyodu or sth like that.

    No. That vowel is often mute: priúdu.

    I only said what one gets to hear in the demos I mentioned, and it's not
    this. (Well, with Skyla I got p@riúdu:)

    --
    guido wugi

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Antonio Marques@21:1/5 to Ruud Harmsen on Thu May 16 20:47:22 2024
    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    Thu, 16 May 2024 13:03:13 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

    Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:
    https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/bágoa
    https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/inteiro
    (Intender e entender are also quite different.)

    Well, there's intender as in 'superintendent', but also as a folksy
    pronunciation of entender. (and there's no variant that connects to
    'intention'.)

    There is, according to https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/intender
    "ter intenção de", unless intenção doesn't mean intention. https://www.infopedia.pt/dicionarios/lingua-portuguesa/intenção

    Ha. Didn't know about that one!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Antonio Marques@21:1/5 to wugi on Fri May 17 00:35:42 2024
    wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:
    Op 16/05/2024 om 21:38 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
    Thu, 16 May 2024 18:37:15 +0200: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:

    Op 15/05/2024 om 13:12 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro >>>> formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    googletrans and the ones I tried here* make no difference rio/riu:
    * https://freetools.textmagic.com/text-to-speech

    Cf. período, que muitos parece dizer como periúdo, porque, penso eu, o >>>> acento não cai no i, mas em <io> pronunciado [iu] ou [iw].

    But none of them stresses í in período. Mostly the stress appears to be >>> on per-: périyodu or sth like that.

    No. That vowel is often mute: priúdu.

    I only said what one gets to hear in the demos I mentioned, and it's not this. (Well, with Skyla I got p@riúdu:)


    Maybe they're based on reading aloud some dictionary's IPA? Not long ago
    the portuguese had the awful habit of using schwa for barred-i, and upside-down-a for what is closer to a schwa, presumably to keep closer to
    the spelling.
    The Lisbon Academy dictionary from the 90s was awful and did have the io as [iw] thing, but I think it got the IPA right. Or I may be misremembering.

    NB our barred-i does exist. Queria/cria is a minimal pair - though it can
    be quite reduced, but while speakers will sometimes say cria for queria,
    they will never do the opposite.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ruud Harmsen@21:1/5 to All on Fri May 17 03:29:40 2024
    Thu, 16 May 2024 18:37:15 +0200: wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> scribeva:

    Op 15/05/2024 om 13:12 schreef Ruud Harmsen:
    Na conjugação do verbo ‘rir’ vemos semelhanças cruzadas em quatro
    formas verbais: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rir#Conjugation_3
    ri = she laughs
    ri = I laughed
    E também:
    rio = I laugh
    riu = she laughed

    Pergunta: as pronúncias de ‘rio’ e ‘rui’ são idênticas? Ou existe uma
    differença subtil? Eu pensaria: em ‘rio’ o acento tónico está no i, em
    ‘riu’ o acento está no ditongo enteiro.

    googletrans and the ones I tried here* make no difference rio/riu:

    Google Translate only does Brazilian Portuguese for it text to voice.

    * https://freetools.textmagic.com/text-to-speech

    Doesn't work for me, endless loop, I cannot enter any text in the box.

    --
    Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)