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is this an OLD riddle?


Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.


------- it seems TOO straightforward... (am i missing something?)


here, [was bestimmtes] is grammatically like [etwas gutes] ???


_________________

Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

is this line something that's easy for children?
Or is it in a form typically found in Heine or Goethe?

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Op 5/04/2024 om 20:38 schreef HenHanna:

is this an OLD riddle?

       Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
       Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

------- it seems TOO straightforward... (am i missing something?)

here, [was bestimmtes] is grammatically like [etwas gutes] ???

"It is a protection, like a skin, in birch, lime and oak trees.
But if you eat something in particular, you don't like it."

I'm missing the "daran" part, and unsure about it.
"therefore, because of that" (the protection)?

Or else "an etwas leiden": to suffer from sth.
But to suffer from what?
And what with "es an etwas leiden"??

--
guido wugi

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wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote or quoted:

Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

"It is a protection, like a skin, in birch, lime and oak trees.
But if you eat something in particular, you don't like it."

"Daran", here, is "being attached to it".

So,

|It's a protective, like a skin, on birches, lindens, and oaks,
|but if one eats a particular thing, one does not like it
|when it's attached to it.

. My translation sonds a bit stilted, because I tried to
stay close to the orignal. Maybe some else can change it
into more natural idiomatic English keeping its meaning.

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ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

|It's a protective, like a skin, on birches, lindens, and oaks,

a protection

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Stefan Ram wrote:

wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote or quoted:

Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

"It is a protection, like a skin, in birch, lime and oak trees.
But if you eat something in particular, you don't like it."

"Daran", here, is "being attached to it".

So,

|It's a protective, like a skin, on birches, lindens, and oaks,
|but if one eats a particular thing, one does not like it
|when it's attached to it.

. My translation sonds a bit stilted, because I tried to
stay close to the orignal. Maybe some else can change it
into more natural idiomatic English keeping its meaning.

_________________________> "Daran", here, is "being attached to it".


so the Answer to this Riddle must be (something like) an inedible Rind of a sausage, or Cheese ?



Citrus fruits: Grapefruits, oranges, lemons, and limes all have rinds that protect the juicy flesh inside.

Melons: Watermelons, cantaloupes, and honeydew melons have rinds that are too tough to eat.

Pineapples: The prickly outer layer of a pineapple is its rind and shouldn't be consumed.


Seeds and nuts: Some seeds and nuts have a hard outer shell that's not edible.

Cheese: Certain aged cheeses, like some goudas and parmesans, might have a wax rind applied to prevent unwanted mold growth. This wax rind is typically removed before eating the cheese.

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ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

. My translation sonds a bit stilted, because I tried to
stay close to the orignal. Maybe some else can change it
into more natural idiomatic English keeping its meaning.

So, why did I not ask my trusted chatbot?

I did, but the translation of this sentence was hard.
I needed some attempts to find the best prompt. Finally,
I arrived at:

|It's a protection, like a skin, for birch, linden, and oak
|trees. But when one consumes a certain something, one doesn't
|enjoy it if it's part of it.
.

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Stefan Ram wrote:

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

. My translation sonuds a bit stilted, because I tried to
stay close to the original. Maybe some else can change it
into more natural idiomatic English keeping its meaning.

So, why did I not ask my trusted chatbot?

I did, but the translation of this sentence was hard.
I needed some attempts to find the best prompt. Finally,
I arrived at:

|It's a protection, like a skin, for birch, linden, and oak
|trees. But when one consumes a certain something, one doesn't
|enjoy it if it's part of it.
..

What's your Answer to the riddle?



Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.


It's a protection, like a skin -- of birch, linden, and oak trees.
But if a particular kind is eaten, it's certainly not a tasty covering.


Rhyming Ver.: It's a protective skin, as on birch, linden, and oak trees.
But there are kinds, when you eat it, it's surely not a tasty treat!





https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/59010/jmd-sehr-m%c3%b6gen-vs-jmd-gern-leiden-m%c3%b6gen


"ich mag sie (sehr) leiden" [is] outdated. I didn't hear it in normal conversations for decades.

"Ich mag sie sehr" or "ich mag sie gern" is still used.

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On 2024-04-05, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

       Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen. >>        Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

Or else "an etwas leiden": to suffer from sth.
But to suffer from what?
And what with "es an etwas leiden"??

That must be an obsolete usage, I can't quite make sense of it
either.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

On 2024-04-05, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

       Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen. >>>        Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

Or else "an etwas leiden": to suffer from sth.
But to suffer from what?
And what with "es an etwas leiden"??

That must be an obsolete usage, I can't quite make sense of it
either.

My broken german read it as
'but if one that certain (thing) eats, may one it thereat not suffer' =
'but if one eats this thing, one may not complain about it'.

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Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted:

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

On 2024-04-05, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

My broken german read it as
'but if one that certain (thing) eats, may one it thereat not suffer' =
'but if one eats this thing, one may not complain about it'.

"Mag" above does not mean "may", but "like". The "leiden" at
the end is actually redundant. One can say "Ich mag Computer
nicht.", or "Ich mag Computer nicht leiden.", or "Ich kann
Computer nicht leiden", all meaning "I don't like computers.".

Regarding "daran": "Da" means "dort" (German) or "vorhanden"
(German), in this case, "dort", English "there". "An" is somewhat
akin to the English "on". So, "daran" is "there on" - "on there",
"on it". One could construct "onit" (or "thereat") as an English
word that is a combination of "on" and "it" similar to "daran".

BTW, The German spelling rules as of about 1980 would require
"Bestimmtes" to be written with a capital "B" because
"Bestimmtes" is considered to be a noun by those rules.

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Stefan Ram wrote:

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted:

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

On 2024-04-05, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

My broken german read it as
'but if one that certain (thing) eats, may one it thereat not suffer' = >>'but if one eats this thing, one may not complain about it'.

"Mag" above does not mean "may", but "like". The "leiden" at
the end is actually redundant. One can say "Ich mag Computer
nicht.", or "Ich mag Computer nicht leiden.", or "Ich kann
Computer nicht leiden", all meaning "I don't like computers.".

Regarding "daran": "Da" means "dort" (German) or "vorhanden"
(German), in this case, "dort", English "there". "An" is somewhat
akin to the English "on". So, "daran" is "there on" - "on there",
"on it". One could construct "onit" (or "thereat") as an English
word that is a combination of "on" and "it" similar to "daran".

BTW, The German spelling rules as of about 1980 would require
"Bestimmtes" to be written with a capital "B" because
"Bestimmtes" is considered to be a noun by those rules.

Rhyming Ver.: It's a protective skin, as on birch, linden, and oak trees.
But there are kinds, when you eat it, it's surely not a tasty treat !




( How to say [i like her] ) https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/59010/jmd-sehr-m%c3%b6gen-vs-jmd-gern-leiden-m%c3%b6gen


"ich mag sie (sehr) leiden" [is] outdated. I haven't heard it in normal conversations for decades.

"Ich mag sie sehr" or "ich mag sie gern" is still used.

____________

This leiden https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/leiden#German

4. (transitive) to like, tolerate (usually in negative contexts)

Ich kann ihn einfach nicht leiden! == I just can't stand him!

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ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

Well now, ain't that just the cat's pajamas! It's so dang
typical of a German fella to say, "Cameriere! Le vin a
pris le goût du bouchon !" that I'm just plumb inclined to
ignore that ill-fitting "ißt" (in German, one "trinkt" wine,
one does not "ißt" it) and say, "Why, it's cork!".

While the grape juice may be the most well-known victim of that
darn cork taint, why shucks, even other vittles like fruits
and veggies, baked goods, and even some processed foods can
pick up those pesky cork-like flavors if they get mixed up with
trichloroanisole-laced materials during processing or packaging.

Yep, it's a real pickle when that happens. That trichloroanisole
stuff is like a skunk at a garden party - it just waltzes right
in and ruins the whole darn batch. Folks in the food biz gotta
keep a real close eye on their materials and make dadgum sure they
don't let that stinker anywhere near their products. Otherwise,
they're liable to end up with a real dog's breakfast on their hands.

Anywho, that's the long and short of it, as they say. Just another
one of them food science conundrums us eggheads gotta keep an
eye on. Now, where was I? Ah yes, back to my crossword puzzle!

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Kyonshi <gmkeros@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:

It's "Rinde" (bark or rind)

Well now, ain't that just the cat's pajamas! It's so dang
typical of a German fella to say, "Cameriere! Le vin a
pris le goût du bouchon !" that I'm just plumb inclined to
ignore that ill-fitting "ißt" (in German, one "trinkt" wine,
one does not "ißt" it) and say, "Why, it's cork!".

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Kyonshi wrote:

On 4/6/2024 2:47 AM, HenHanna wrote:

Stefan Ram wrote:

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

. My translation sonuds a bit stilted, because I tried to
stay close to the original. Maybe some else can change it
into more natural idiomatic English keeping its meaning.

  So, why did I not ask my trusted chatbot?

  I did, but the translation of this sentence was hard.
  I needed some attempts to find the best prompt. Finally,
  I arrived at:

|It's a protection, like a skin, for birch, linden, and oak
|trees. But when one consumes a certain something, one doesn't |enjoy
it if it's part of it.
..

What's your Answer to the riddle?

It's "Rinde" (bark or rind)

the answer can't be BARK because we don't eat Wood.

the answer must be RIND of a fruit (orange peel?) or Sausage(?)

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wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote or quoted:

But when you eat anything in particular

It's not: "when you eat anything in particular".

It's: "But there is a certain thing. When you it this, ...".

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Op 6/04/2024 om 13:16 schreef Christian Weisgerber:

On 2024-04-05, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

       Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
       Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

Or else "an etwas leiden": to suffer from sth.
But to suffer from what?
And what with "es an etwas leiden"??

That must be an obsolete usage, I can't quite make sense of it
either.

If I understood the explanations well, it should read

But when you eat anything in particular, you won't like it, the former
('s = es/den Schutz) upon it, the latter (daran = an dem, was man isst).

Which doesn't make it any clearer to me, what with eating the trees' skins.

--
guido wugi

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Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted:

I didn't know about 'mag...leiden'.

|ˈmö·gen
...
|4 jmdn. od. etwas gern haben; "ich mag ihn nicht (leiden)"
Wahrig (1972)

|unteuer adj präd "er ist mir nicht ~" = "ich bin ihm zugetan",
|"mag ihn leiden", "habe ihn gern". Litotes. 1920 ff.
Küpper (1987)

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Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted:

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

On 2024-04-05, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

My broken german read it as
'but if one that certain (thing) eats, may one it thereat not suffer' =
'but if one eats this thing, one may not complain about it'.

"Mag" above does not mean "may", but "like". The "leiden" at
the end is actually redundant. One can say "Ich mag Computer
nicht.", or "Ich mag Computer nicht leiden.", or "Ich kann
Computer nicht leiden", all meaning "I don't like computers.".

I didn't know about 'mag...leiden'.

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Op 7/04/2024 om 12:47 schreef Stefan Ram:

wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote or quoted:

But when you eat anything in particular

It's not: "when you eat anything in particular".

It's: "But there is a certain thing. When you it this, ...".

It's undetermined anyway. Using
'certain-bestimt-bepaald/zeker-particular..." to express a particular occurrence amongst a set of arbitrary candidates.

When you eat a certain something... ~ anything in particular, afaic.

--
guido wugi

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Sun, 7 Apr 2024 13:31:51 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted:

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

On 2024-04-05, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

My broken german read it as
'but if one that certain (thing) eats, may one it thereat not suffer' =
'but if one eats this thing, one may not complain about it'.

"Mag" above does not mean "may", but "like". The "leiden" at
the end is actually redundant. One can say "Ich mag Computer
nicht.", or "Ich mag Computer nicht leiden.", or "Ich kann
Computer nicht leiden", all meaning "I don't like computers.".

I didn't know about 'mag...leiden'.

I did. Because it also exists in Dutch, as 'mag ... lijden'.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

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On 2024-04-07, Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

I didn't know about 'mag...leiden'.

"Leiden mögen", to use the citation form, is an idiomatic expression.
I don't think I actively use it. But yes, it means "to like". I
think today the same thing is mostly expressed with "leiden können"
or simple "mögen".

It's possible that "mögen" in the sense of 'to like' originated as
an ellipsis of "leiden mögen". "Mögen" and more obviously the 1./3.
present singular "mag" is cognate with English "may" and a modal
verb. Modal uses still exist, but the evolution into 'to like' is
remarkable. The past subjunctive "möchte" is in the process of
splitting off into a separate verb as evidenced by a spurious
infinitive "möchten", which parallels the split of "may"/"might"
in English, which are historically present and past of one verb,
but increasingly treated as separate verbs.

(Contrary to English, German modal verbs have non-finite forms.)

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.inka.de

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Ruud Harmsen <rh@rudhar.com> wrote:

Sun, 7 Apr 2024 13:31:51 -0000 (UTC): Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> scribeva:

Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> wrote or quoted:

Christian Weisgerber <naddy@mips.inka.de> wrote:

On 2024-04-05, wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

My broken german read it as
'but if one that certain (thing) eats, may one it thereat not suffer' = >>>> 'but if one eats this thing, one may not complain about it'.

"Mag" above does not mean "may", but "like". The "leiden" at
the end is actually redundant. One can say "Ich mag Computer
nicht.", or "Ich mag Computer nicht leiden.", or "Ich kann
Computer nicht leiden", all meaning "I don't like computers.".

I didn't know about 'mag...leiden'.

I did. Because it also exists in Dutch, as 'mag ... lijden'.

But is the origin 'can ... suffer'?
One can use 'tolerate' for 'like'...

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Antonio Marques <no_email@invalid.invalid> schrieb oder zitierte:

But is the origin 'can ... suffer'?
One can use 'tolerate' for 'like'...

Yes, "leiden" can mean as much as to endure, and I think that
when you say you can endure someone well, it means that you
like him (in the sense of "to be fond of him").

What I've only just learned from looking it up in the
dictionary of origins is that the verb "leiden" is not
originally etymologically related to the adjective "leid"
and the noun "Leid" derived from that adjective!

Newsgroups: sci.lang

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ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) schrieb oder zitierte:

Yes, "leiden" can mean as much as to endure, and I think that
when you say you can endure someone well, it means that you
like him (in the sense of "to be fond of him").

"Ich kann sie /nicht/ (er)leiden." is "I can't endure (stand)
her.", "I'm /repulsed/ by her." The /opposite/ of "Ich kann
sie /nicht/ leiden." must then be, "I am /attracted/ to her".

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ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

"Ich kann sie /nicht/ (er)leiden." is "I can't endure (stand)

Küpper wrote in 1973: "'Leiden' führt über 'erdulden' zur Bedeutung
'sich gefallen lassen'. Seit dem 18. Jh.".

But then he also adds: "ihn mag ich so gut ~ sehen = ihn schätze ich
überhaupt nicht. Hinter 'leiden' wird meist eine kleine Pause gemacht,
wodurch das nachfolgende Wort um so ironischer wirkt. 1950 ff. stud.".

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ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) wrote or quoted:

Newsgroups: sci.lang

Sorry! That should have been "alt.usage.german" I guess.

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On 4/6/2024 1:39 PM, Kyonshi wrote:

On 4/6/2024 3:44 PM, jerryfriedman wrote:

Kyonshi wrote:

On 4/5/2024 8:38 PM, HenHanna wrote:

is this an OLD riddle?


        Es ist ein Schutz, wie eine Haut, bei Birken, Linden, Eichen.
        Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht >>>> leiden.


------- it seems TOO straightforward... (am i missing something?)


here, [was bestimmtes] is grammatically like [etwas gutes] ???


_________________

Doch wenn man was bestimmtes isst, mag man's daran nicht leiden.

      is this line something that's easy for children?
               Or is it in a form typically found in Heine or Goethe?

I think you might be rather in the wrong group for this. Wasn't there
a alt.usage.german?

[was bestimmtes] in this case means [something specific] or
[something else]

It is protection like a skin with beech, linden, and oaks trees.
But if you eat something else you won't like it on it.

I guess it makes more sense in German, especially the [was
bestimmtes] sounds more natural than it would in English.
The answer is [Rinde] which can mean both (tree) bark, but also crust
(as on bread) or any stronger outer layer of a food like an orange
peel or a cheese rind.

In fact the word rind is an English word that means exactly the same.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rind

Originally "rind" meant "bark", but I'm not sure I've heard it in that
sense since my yonge suster sente me the brere, withoutyn ony rinde.
It would sound strange to me now.

I don't think I have ever seen it used as bark in any way outside of
older texts, but Merriam-Webster and a few other dictionaries disagree. Personally I'd have marked it as archaic, but I assume they know more
than me. Maybe it's still in wide use among arborists.

so Kyonshi knows German... What else do you know?



i'm reminded of Escher prints... entitled Rinde ... or Rind

in English, the pron. is always like [Rynde] right?
[Rye-nd] [Rie-nd]

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