• Wind Solar unreliable compared to Gas Coal Nuclear

    From contact@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 27 19:57:31 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to contact on Tue Sep 28 06:15:36 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!


    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go figure

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Mon Sep 27 15:12:17 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Mon Sep 27 18:11:33 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Just Wondering" wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to postpone the use
    of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Tue Sep 28 07:25:26 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
    achieved.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Sep 28 08:31:38 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Just Wondering"  wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
    only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to postpone
    the use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box


    Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
    system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
    megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob F@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Mon Sep 27 16:00:26 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Mon Sep 27 19:13:33 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 4:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Just Wondering"  wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
    only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to postpone
    the use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

    Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar". Storage batteries =
    chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't postpone
    the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
    be from any source to make a chemical reaction. When you use
    a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
    of electrical energy. None of those processes involve solar
    energy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Mon Sep 27 19:15:03 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
    achieved.

    The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
    is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
    solar energy is unavailable.

    Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar". Storage batteries =
    chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't postpone
    the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
    be from any source to make a chemical reaction. When you use
    a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
    of electrical energy. None of those processes involve solar
    energy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Bob F on Mon Sep 27 19:17:47 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Mon Sep 27 19:16:43 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Just Wondering"  wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad... >>
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
    only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
    postpone the use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box


    Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
    system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
    megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.

    Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob F@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Mon Sep 27 19:30:15 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
    stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
    fuel, it is solar.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Tue Sep 28 13:01:27 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 28/09/2021 11:16 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Just Wondering"  wrote in message
    news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
    only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
    postpone the use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box


    Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
    system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
    megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.

    Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

    Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear
    power. If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't keep
    going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow because chemical
    storage is used so be it.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Tue Sep 28 12:53:48 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
    achieved.

    The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
    is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
    solar energy is unavailable.

    The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
    storage mechanism


    Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".

    Yes they are as that is what charges them

    Storage batteries =
    chemical energy -> electrical energy.  They don't postpone
    the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
    be from any source to make a chemical reaction.  When you use
    a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
    of electrical energy.  None of those processes involve solar
    energy.

    I'll give it ago and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries and
    see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it will be 5
    days. Than I will recharge them from the sun.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Tue Sep 28 13:02:31 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 28/09/2021 11:13 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 4:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Just Wondering"  wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad... >>
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
    only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
    postpone the use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

    Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".  Storage batteries =
    chemical energy -> electrical energy.  They don't postpone
    the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
    be from any source to make a chemical reaction.  When you use
    a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
    of electrical energy.  None of those processes involve solar
    energy.

    Except for the charging part in my case

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 00:48:03 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 9:01 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 11:16 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 8:11 am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Just Wondering"  wrote in message
    news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is
    your only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
    postpone the use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box


    Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
    system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
    megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.

    Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

    Solar energy is a chemical reaction, hey you can claim I'm using nuclear power.

    Solar power comes from nuclear fusion, not a chemical reaction.

    If it makes you happy to believe that renewable energy can't
    keep going when the sun doesn't and the wind doesn't blow
    because chemical storage is used so be it.

    It's not my "belief", I am describing the science of what
    is solar energy.

    https://justenergy.com/blog/what-is-solar-energy/ Notice where
    it says, "Disadvantages of Solar Energy It Won’t Work at Night."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Bob F on Tue Sep 28 00:56:55 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
    stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
    fuel, it is solar.

    You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
    uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night. We can and do
    use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
    electric generators. Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
    very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.

    It's not a word game. Energy stored in batteries literally is
    not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
    is used to charge the batteries. If you're going to play THAT
    word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
    solar energy. If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
    is stored solar power. Wind power is stored solar power, Energy
    from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power. Muscle power
    is stored solar power. Geothermal is stored solar power. Even
    nuclear is stored solar power. So if THAT's how you play the
    game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 00:39:16 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 8:53 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
    achieved.

    The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
    is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
    solar energy is unavailable.

    The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
    storage mechanism

    If you want to play that game, hydroelectric power is only a
    storage mechanism for solar energy. Wind energy is only a
    storage machanism for solar energy. Burning anything (wood,
    coal, oil, natural gas, ethanol, whatever) is only a storage
    mechanism for solar energy. From science's explanation of how
    suns and planets are formed, even nuclear energy is only a
    storage mechanism for solar energy.


    Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".

    Yes they are as that is what charges them

    Any source of electricity will charge batteries. I charge the
    batteries in my wireless computer mouse by plugging the mouse
    into a USB port, which draws power from my computer which is
    plugged into an outlet that receives power from my friendly
    regional electric utility, which gets its electricity from
    who knows where. Battery power is not solar power no matter
    how much you want to rationalize it.>
    Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy.
    They don't postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
    energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction.
    When you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
    in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
    involve solar energy.

    I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
    and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it
    will be 5 days.

    During those five days you will get your electricity from a
    chemical reaction, not from the sun.

    Than I will recharge them from the sun.

    Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
    or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
    to charge your batteries, or connect that generator to a stationary
    bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged. However
    you charge your batteries, when you draw power from those batteries
    it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Tue Sep 28 17:01:05 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 28/09/2021 4:56 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
    Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
    stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
    fuel, it is solar.

    You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
    uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night.

    Called pump hydro such a scheme is being built in the Snowys

    We can and do
    use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
    electric generators.  Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
    very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.

    It's not a word game.  Energy stored in batteries literally is
    not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
    is used to charge the batteries.  If you're going to play THAT
    word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
    solar energy.  If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
    is stored solar power.  Wind power is stored solar power,  Energy
    from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power.  Muscle power
    is stored solar power.  Geothermal is stored solar power.  Even
    nuclear is stored solar power.  So if THAT's how you play the
    game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

    So lets stick to the renewable forms of this solar energy as I'm doing
    with my solar powered farm

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Tue Sep 28 16:57:12 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 28/09/2021 4:39 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 8:53 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
    Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
    achieved.

    The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
    is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
    solar energy is unavailable.

    The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
    storage mechanism

    If you want to play that game, hydroelectric power is only a
    storage mechanism for solar energy.  Wind energy is only a
    storage machanism for solar energy.    Burning anything (wood,
    coal, oil, natural gas, ethanol, whatever) is only a storage
    mechanism for solar energy. From science's explanation of how
    suns and planets are formed, even nuclear energy is only a
    storage mechanism for solar energy.


    Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".

    Yes they are as that is what charges them

    Any source of electricity will charge batteries.  I charge the
    batteries in my wireless computer mouse by plugging the mouse
    into a USB port, which draws power from my computer which is
    plugged into an outlet that receives power from my friendly
    regional electric utility, which gets its electricity from
    who knows where.  Battery power is not solar power no matter
    how much you want to rationalize it.>

    Of course solar is the source of power for the batteries. Thanks for a
    new but inane argument

    Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't
    postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
    energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction. When
    you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
    in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
    involve solar energy.

    I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
    and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it will
    be 5 days.

    During those five days you will get your electricity from a
    chemical reaction, not from the sun.

    A chemical reaction that got it's power from being recharged by the sun

    Than I will recharge them from the sun.

    Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
    or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
    to charge your batteries,

    Are wind power is an excellent renewable energy source

    or connect that generator to a stationary
    bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged.

    My emergency radio works like that

    However
    you charge your batteries, when you draw power from those batteries
    it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

    If you're happy with that inanity so be it

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 01:02:59 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 9:02 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 11:13 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 4:11 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Just Wondering"  wrote in message
    news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
    only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to
    postpone the use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

    Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".  Storage batteries =
    chemical energy -> electrical energy.  They don't postpone
    the use of solar energy, they use electrical energy which can
    be from any source to make a chemical reaction.  When you use
    a battery, another chemical reaction that results in the release
    of electrical energy.  None of those processes involve solar
    energy.

    Except for the charging part in my case

    It sounds like you use electricity from photovoltaic cells during
    the day to charge your batteries. You then use electricity from
    discharging your batteries when solar energy is not available.
    That latter use is chemical energy, not solar energy.

    Read my other posts on this subject. If you want to play the game
    of "my batteries are stored solar power", then every bloody energy
    source on the planet, from horse-drawn carts to burning wood or
    ethanol or coal to wind and hydro power to nuclear power is also
    stored solar power.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 01:14:33 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 12:57 AM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 4:39 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 8:53 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. >>>>>>> Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
    achieved.

    The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
    is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
    solar energy is unavailable.

    The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
    storage mechanism

    If you want to play that game, hydroelectric power is only a
    storage mechanism for solar energy.  Wind energy is only a
    storage machanism for solar energy.    Burning anything (wood,
    coal, oil, natural gas, ethanol, whatever) is only a storage
    mechanism for solar energy. From science's explanation of how
    suns and planets are formed, even nuclear energy is only a
    storage mechanism for solar energy.


    Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".

    Yes they are as that is what charges them

    Any source of electricity will charge batteries.  I charge the
    batteries in my wireless computer mouse by plugging the mouse
    into a USB port, which draws power from my computer which is
    plugged into an outlet that receives power from my friendly
    regional electric utility, which gets its electricity from
    who knows where.  Battery power is not solar power no matter
    how much you want to rationalize it.>

    Of course solar is the source of power for the batteries. Thanks for a
    new but inane argument

    Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't
    postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
    energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction.
    When you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
    in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
    involve solar energy.

    I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
    and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it
    will be 5 days.

    During those five days you will get your electricity from a
    chemical reaction, not from the sun.

    A chemical reaction that got it's power from being recharged by the sun

    Than I will recharge them from the sun.

    Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
    or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
    to charge your batteries,

    Are wind power is an excellent renewable energy source

    or connect that generator to a stationary
    bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged.

    My emergency radio works like that

    However you charge your batteries, when you draw power from
    those batteries it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

    If you're happy with that inanity so be it

    I'm talking science, you're talking political correctness.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Trevor Wilson@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Tue Sep 28 17:17:12 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    **You have 17th century thinking. The rest of us exist in the 21st century.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 28 17:25:33 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    snip

    My emergency radio works like that

    However you charge your batteries, when you draw power from
    those batteries it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

    If you're happy with that inanity so be it

    I'm talking science, you're talking political correctness.

    If you can talk science you'll know all about the GHG properties of
    certain molecules, I'm sure you've kept up with the science as it's been
    known since the 1800s. You'll also understand that these molecules don't
    change their properties from the lab to the atmosphere.
    I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
    reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 08:55:21 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Just Wondering" wrote in message news:_1u4J.58228$2Q_3.31792@fx35.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
    system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000 megawatts
    of battery storage to put into the grid.

    Then you don't understand the formal logic of scientific modeling. The Black Box can include internal storage of inputs.

    Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

    That's irrelevant if the source of that energy is solar.

    You can call it whatever you please, but these systems are really defined by the scientists and engineers who design and build them.

    Solar panels without either storage or a sink like the grid to receive the energy are nearly useless, because almost all real-world loads are so
    variable.

    I've been experimenting with immediate use of solar power in a freezer with
    a DC compressor. In the middle of the day solar panel output is enough to operate the compressor, and the Watt meter on the input to the attached AC power supply reads zero.

    When the compressor is off the solar current diverts to float charging the freezer's backup battery and topping off other spares. Yesterday I checked
    the battery electrolyte and confirmed that the float voltage is enough to maintain a full charge but below the gassing level. This is how a UPS or
    exit light maintains its lead-acid battery, with the disadvantage that after
    an outage a full recharge at the float voltage can take a day or more, as indicated by the trickle charging current.

    When solar current isn't enough the compressor draws the rest from the AC supply, shown by the power division on their Watt meters, or if the grid
    fails it draws from the battery.

    This meter keeps track of energy into and out of the battery: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32785159924.html
    and this one monitors power drawn from the the AC line: https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-pzem-061.html
    This PZEM-031 reads DC solar power but it doesn't like the low voltages at
    dawn and dusk so I added a relay that protects it from seeing less than 10V: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32413784036.html

    That's as close as I get to using all available solar power as it is
    produced.

    The other application for immediate use of solar power is heating water, but
    I keep my low voltage solar circuits as isolated from the grid as possible
    for safety. Otherwise it's just a theoretical exercise, not a practical home power system.

    You can't intelligently discuss energy without an understanding of thermodynamics and energy quality, which concerns how easily it can be transformed between forms such as the heat of a fire vs electricity or shaft rotation. Unfortunately the non-technical general public doesn't seem to appreciate the distinction between a primary source of energy like sunlight
    and the secondary means of storing and distributing it, like hydrogen or electricity.
    https://stem.guide/topic/primary-resources-and-secondary-energy/

    "Totally Solar" refers to the primary source. Secondary conversions don't matter.
    jsw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scout@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Sep 28 09:53:02 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message news:sitfja$nb7$1@dont-email.me...
    "Just Wondering" wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to postpone the
    use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

    Average consumption 30 kilowatthours (kWh).

    Figure 16 hours of storage as a bare minimum

    100Ahr battery = 600 wh

    Minimum required 40 batteries.

    Cost about $8000 just for the batteries.

    Another $14,000 for the solar system

    Figure about $15,000 for installation.

    More for the lost floor space, or building to hold all this.

    And that only gets you through the day. If you don't have 8 hours of full charge... overcast, raining, snow, etc then your battery capacity
    requirements will go up drastically,.

    Then we need to calculate the pollution produced for all that hardware, the regular replacement of the batteries, panels and systems over a lifetime and then figure out if you're actually cutting emissions... or just spreading it around.

    Seems to me to be a lot of money and issues for a dubious reduction in pollution.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 28 09:36:35 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Just Wondering" wrote in message news:D6z4J.85358$Dr.57485@fx40.iad...

    It sounds like you use electricity from photovoltaic cells during
    the day to charge your batteries. You then use electricity from
    discharging your batteries when solar energy is not available.
    That latter use is chemical energy, not solar energy.

    Read my other posts on this subject. If you want to play the game
    of "my batteries are stored solar power", then every bloody energy
    source on the planet, from horse-drawn carts to burning wood or
    ethanol or coal to wind and hydro power to nuclear power is also
    stored solar power.

    -------------------

    Your attempted redefinition of "total solar" would render the term useless.
    You are entitled to your opinion, and we to ours.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scout@21:1/5 to Bob F on Tue Sep 28 10:02:18 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote in message news:situno$el1$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
    stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil fuel,
    it is solar.

    <Raises Hand>

    Can you tell me how you insure that the energy used to produce every
    component of the system, including transportation of such, used 100% solar power?

    Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?

    Are you aware that the primary source of the overwhelming bulk of solar equipment is from the biggest source of emissions and pollution on the
    planet?

    If you're just pushing the pollution to somewhere you don't see it, does
    that really change anything?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob F@21:1/5 to Scout on Tue Sep 28 09:34:08 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 7:02 AM, Scout wrote:


    "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote in message news:situno$el1$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
    Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
    stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
    fuel, it is solar.

    <Raises Hand>

    Can you tell me how you insure that the energy used to produce every component of the system, including transportation of such, used 100%
    solar power?

    Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?

    Are you aware that the primary source of the overwhelming bulk of solar equipment is from the biggest source of emissions and pollution on the planet?

    If you're just pushing the pollution to somewhere you don't see it, does
    that really change anything?

    Name a few power sources that do not have those costs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob F@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Tue Sep 28 09:32:11 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/27/2021 11:56 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night.
    Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
    stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
    fuel, it is solar.

    You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
    uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night.  We can and do
    use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
    electric generators.  Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
    very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.

    It's not a word game.  Energy stored in batteries literally is
    not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
    is used to charge the batteries.  If you're going to play THAT
    word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
    solar energy.  If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
    is stored solar power.  Wind power is stored solar power,  Energy
    from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power.  Muscle power
    is stored solar power.  Geothermal is stored solar power.  Even
    nuclear is stored solar power.  So if THAT's how you play the
    game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

    The significant issue is that the solar house with batteries is getting
    its energy from the sun, not from fossil fuel, reducing it's damage to
    the climate from CO2 releases. If it charged the batteries from a coal
    power plant, that would not be the case.

    A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
    overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.

    But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You just have
    to be "right".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 28 14:08:24 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Bob F" wrote in message news:sivg2e$va0$1@dont-email.me...

    The significant issue is that the solar house with batteries is getting
    its energy from the sun, not from fossil fuel, reducing it's damage to
    the climate from CO2 releases. If it charged the batteries from a coal
    power plant, that would not be the case.

    A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
    overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.

    But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You just have
    to be "right".

    ----------------

    If the meaning of words matters more than effective actions then "totally solar" should exclude the conversion from optical to electrical as well as
    from electrical to chemical. The system output should be a beam of sunshine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Sep 28 14:01:31 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Scout" wrote in message news:siv7tl$t50$7@dont-email.me...
    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message news:sitfja$nb7$1@dont-email.me...
    "Just Wondering" wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to postpone the
    use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

    Average consumption 30 kilowatthours (kWh).

    Figure 16 hours of storage as a bare minimum

    100Ahr battery = 600 wh

    Minimum required 40 batteries.

    Cost about $8000 just for the batteries.

    Another $14,000 for the solar system

    Figure about $15,000 for installation.

    More for the lost floor space, or building to hold all this.

    And that only gets you through the day. If you don't have 8 hours of full charge... overcast, raining, snow, etc then your battery capacity
    requirements will go up drastically,.

    Then we need to calculate the pollution produced for all that hardware, the regular replacement of the batteries, panels and systems over a lifetime and then figure out if you're actually cutting emissions... or just spreading it around.

    Seems to me to be a lot of money and issues for a dubious reduction in pollution.

    --------------------------

    My backup system isn't nearly that large or expensive, and my normal consumption is under 5KWH per day.

    The backup supports a compact refrigerator and small freezer plus one or two laptops for cellular Internet and antenna television. For meals I run a 2KW inverter generator, or use the wood stove since most long outages here are
    from winter ice storms. Laundry requires a 3KW generator and kick-starting
    by releasing the old Maytag's belt tension with my foot on the motor. I freeze-dry the laundry on an outdoor clothes line, typically within the same day since winter humidity is very low.

    Two fairly new 12V 105Ah marine batteries will run the inverter for at least
    24 hours and maybe 48 depending on conditions. The freezer operates on 12V
    DC and can go almost 48 hours on the original pair of ~10 year old
    batteries, by recent test. The four marine batteries and four 100W panels averaged $100 apiece and the sine inverter was free, a "dead" high end APC
    UPS. Installation is standing the panels on fold-out legs in the yard or driveway when I need them for an outage, otherwise a row of small flea
    market panels on the roof powers the freezer. After measuring power loss I upgraded the house solar wire to 10 AWG, a significant expense if you buy it new.

    As best I can figure, the cost of battery depreciation if cycled daily
    somewhat exceeds the cost of grid power, so I use the system only for backup
    to prolong battery life. I ran the numbers for flooded, AGM and Lithium and flooded won IF maintained, but not if neglected. I pay $0.18688 per grid KWH and these $100 batteries would cost $0.20 per KWH if they delivered 1 KWH
    each, 500 times. They probably wouldn't last that long, 500 cycles is
    pushing the claimed performance of AGMs at twice the price and reportedly
    half the storage life, so the high end estimate for battery cost ran around $0.50/KWH, close to using a generator. I get nearly 10 years in storage from used PowerSonic 12V 18A AGMs if they are topped up regularly, less than 3
    years from Rhinos. They are considered dead and recycled when they won't run the freezer the equivalent of overnight.

    If I switched to daily cycling I would buy different batteries because the flooded ones may gas if charged fast enough, meaning high enough voltage, to fully recover from a deep discharge during winter daylight. They don't gas
    if limited to the float voltage, but they also don't fully recharge in a
    day. They do charge to 70~80% before reaching the gassing voltage, which is enough for me.

    Unless more trees die and fall I don't get enough sun on the roof to justify
    a larger permanent installation. What I have has let me unplug from the grid and keep operating as usual when thunderstorms threaten, and stay off it if they last overnight. I've only needed the generator briefly a few times
    during an extended winter blackout. In clear weather 400W (~330W into the batteries) of solar power recharged the batteries into the acceptance (declining current) range by 10AM.

    -jsw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 28 14:17:15 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Scout" wrote in message news:siv7tl$t50$8@dont-email.me...
    ....
    Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?
    ....

    ---------------------

    Be careful what you wish for, you may get it and suffer the consequences. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a34272175/wind-powered-sailboat-cargo-shipping-future/

    The better wooden sailing ships could do 15 knots, the best over 20.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 29 06:43:04 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    snip

    If you're happy with that inanity so be it

    I acknowledge the science.  So you think science is inane.  Got it.

    If aknowledge science you'll know all about the GHG properties of
    certain molecules, I'm sure you've kept up with the science as it's been
    known since the 1800s. You'll also understand that these molecules don't
    change their properties from the lab to the atmosphere.
    I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
    reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 29 06:44:40 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    snip

    If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power.  But neither
    is what people mean when they say "solar power".

    So you know what is meant and I know what is meant so why your inane
    arguing?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 14:40:14 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 1:01 AM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 4:56 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. >>>>>>> Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
    stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
    fuel, it is solar.

    You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
    uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night.

    Called pump hydro such a scheme is being built in the Snowys

    If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power. But neither
    is what people mean when they say "solar power".

    We can and do
    use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
    electric generators.  Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
    very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.

    It's not a word game.  Energy stored in batteries literally is
    not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
    is used to charge the batteries.  If you're going to play THAT
    word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
    solar energy.  If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
    is stored solar power.  Wind power is stored solar power,  Energy
    from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power.  Muscle power
    is stored solar power.  Geothermal is stored solar power.  Even
    nuclear is stored solar power.  So if THAT's how you play the
    game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

    So lets stick to the renewable forms of this solar energy as
    I'm doing with my solar powered farm

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/52/80/bd/5280bd3bc8a37b76d62e6a3aec037fc7.jpg

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 14:36:11 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 12:57 AM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 4:39 pm, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 8:53 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 11:15 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 3:25 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 7:12 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. >>>>>>> Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    That is the reality. Come on have a think about how this reality is
    achieved.

    The reality is probably that you uses solar energy when the sun
    is shining, and chemical energy in the form of batteries when
    solar energy is unavailable.

    The reality is that the energy comes from the sun, batteries are a
    storage mechanism

    If you want to play that game, hydroelectric power is only a
    storage mechanism for solar energy.  Wind energy is only a
    storage machanism for solar energy.    Burning anything (wood,
    coal, oil, natural gas, ethanol, whatever) is only a storage
    mechanism for solar energy. From science's explanation of how
    suns and planets are formed, even nuclear energy is only a
    storage mechanism for solar energy.


    Storage batteries = NOT "totally solar".

    Yes they are as that is what charges them

    Any source of electricity will charge batteries.  I charge the
    batteries in my wireless computer mouse by plugging the mouse
    into a USB port, which draws power from my computer which is
    plugged into an outlet that receives power from my friendly
    regional electric utility, which gets its electricity from
    who knows where.  Battery power is not solar power no matter
    how much you want to rationalize it.>

    Of course solar is the source of power for the batteries. Thanks for a
    new but inane argument

    The fact remains, electric power from batteries is not totally solar.

    Storage batteries = chemical energy -> electrical energy. They don't
    postpone the use of solar energy, they use electrical
    energy which can be from any source to make a chemical reaction.
    When you use a battery, another chemical reaction that results
    in the release of electrical energy.  None of those processes
    involve solar energy.

    I'll give it a go and disconnect my solar panels from the batteries
    and see how long this chemical reaction lasts, actually I know it
    will be 5 days.

    During those five days you will get your electricity from a
    chemical reaction, not from the sun.

    A chemical reaction that got it's power from being recharged by the sun

    A chemical reaction that is not totally solar.

    Than I will recharge them from the sun.

    Or you could recharge your batteries from a gas-powered generator,
    or you could hook up a car generator to a windmill and use the wind
    to charge your batteries,

    Are wind power is an excellent renewable energy source

    Do you agree that wind power is solar power just as much as
    is battery power?

    or connect that generator to a stationary
    bicycle and pedal away until your batteries are charged.

    My emergency radio works like that

    Do you agree that a electricity from a human-powered generator
    is just as much solar power as is battery power?

    However you charge your batteries, when you draw power from
    those batteries it is not solar power, it is chemical energy.

    If you're happy with that inanity so be it

    I acknowledge the science. So you think science is inane. Got it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Sep 28 14:48:25 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 7:36 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Just Wondering"  wrote in message news:D6z4J.85358$Dr.57485@fx40.iad...

    It sounds like you use electricity from photovoltaic cells during
    the day to charge your batteries.  You then use electricity from
    discharging your batteries when solar energy is not available.
    That latter use is chemical energy, not solar energy.

    Read my other posts on this subject. If you want to play the game
    of "my batteries are stored solar power", then every bloody energy
    source on the planet, from horse-drawn carts to burning wood or
    ethanol or coal to wind and hydro power to nuclear power is also
    stored solar power.

    -------------------

    Your attempted redefinition of "total solar" would render the term
    useless. You are entitled to your opinion, and we to ours.

    Right back at you. Your own definition of solar power makes
    the whole conversation useless. Accepting your definition from
    another post, if a "secondary conversion" of solar energy as a
    primary source is still solar energy, then there is NO energy
    source on the planet that is not solar energy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Sep 28 14:45:59 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 6:55 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Just Wondering"  wrote in message news:_1u4J.58228$2Q_3.31792@fx35.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 4:31 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    Not sure solar power stored in a battery is a "black box" model. The
    system I have can obviously be scaled up, Aus currently has 7000
    megawatts of battery storage to put into the grid.

    Then you don't understand the formal logic of scientific modeling. The
    Black Box can include internal storage of inputs.

    Battery storage is chemical energy not solar energy.

    That's irrelevant if the source of that energy is solar.

    You can call it whatever you please, but these systems are really
    defined by the scientists and engineers who design and build them.

    Solar panels without either storage or a sink like the grid to receive
    the energy are nearly useless, because almost all real-world loads are
    so variable.

    I've been experimenting with immediate use of solar power in a freezer
    with a DC compressor. In the middle of the day solar panel output is
    enough to operate the compressor, and the Watt meter on the input to the attached AC power supply reads zero.

    When the compressor is off the solar current diverts to float charging
    the freezer's backup battery and topping off other spares. Yesterday I checked the battery electrolyte and confirmed that the float voltage is enough to maintain a full charge but below the gassing level. This is
    how a UPS or exit light maintains its lead-acid battery, with the disadvantage that after an outage a full recharge at the float voltage
    can take a day or more, as indicated by the trickle charging current.

    When solar current isn't enough the compressor draws the rest from the
    AC supply, shown by the power division on their Watt meters, or if the
    grid fails it draws from the battery.

    This meter keeps track of energy into and out of the battery: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32785159924.html
    and this one monitors power drawn from the the AC line: https://www.aliexpress.com/cheap/cheap-pzem-061.html
    This PZEM-031 reads DC solar power but it doesn't like the low voltages
    at dawn and dusk so I added a relay that protects it from seeing less
    than 10V:
    https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32413784036.html

    That's as close as I get to using all available solar power as it is produced.

    The other application for immediate use of solar power is heating water,
    but I keep my low voltage solar circuits as isolated from the grid as possible for safety. Otherwise it's just a theoretical exercise, not a practical home power system.

    You can't intelligently discuss energy without an understanding of thermodynamics and energy quality, which concerns how easily it can be transformed between forms such as the heat of a fire vs electricity or
    shaft rotation. Unfortunately the non-technical general public doesn't
    seem to appreciate the distinction between a primary source of energy
    like sunlight and the secondary means of storing and distributing it,
    like hydrogen or electricity. https://stem.guide/topic/primary-resources-and-secondary-energy/

    "Totally Solar" refers to the primary source. Secondary conversions
    don't matter.

    If that's your position, then ALL energy on the planet is solar
    power. Wind turbines? Secondary conversion of solar energy.
    Hydroelectric generators? Secondary conversion of solar energy.
    The same is true with combustion of fuel - ANY fuel. The same
    for tidal energy, using oxen to plow a field, slaves to pick
    cotton, even nuclear fission plants. All are secondary conversions
    of energy where solar energy is the primary source.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Bob F on Tue Sep 28 14:55:38 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 10:32 AM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 11:56 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 8:30 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. >>>>>>> Go figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
    stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
    fuel, it is solar.

    You could use excess solar power during the day to pump water into an
    uphill pond and use a water-powered generator at night.  We can and do
    use solar energy to grow trees and such that can be burned to power
    electric generators.  Fossil fuel is just wood that has been stored a
    very long time before we burn it to release the stored solar power.

    It's not a word game.  Energy stored in batteries literally is
    not solar energy even if electricity generated from solar panels
    is used to charge the batteries.  If you're going to play THAT
    word game, quite literally every energy source in use is stored
    solar energy.  If that's the game you want to play, hydro power
    is stored solar power.  Wind power is stored solar power,  Energy
    from burning any sort of fuel is stored solar power.  Muscle power
    is stored solar power.  Geothermal is stored solar power.  Even
    nuclear is stored solar power.  So if THAT's how you play the
    game, every house on the planet is totally solar.

    The significant issue is that the solar house with batteries is getting
    its energy from the sun, not from fossil fuel, reducing it's damage to
    the climate from CO2 releases. If it charged the batteries from a coal
    power plant, that would not be the case.

    Fossil fuels, and non-fossil combustible fuels (wood, ethanol, etc.)
    also get their energy from the sun. If battery chemical energy is
    solar energy, so is combustion energy.

    But the significant issue is Chuckie's dual claims, that "my
    house is totally solar" and also "I have power at night". The
    only way you can make both statements true is by a definition
    of solar energy that logically extends to every form of energy
    on the planet - which makes the definition useless.

    A solar heated house stores thermal energy in thermal mass for use
    overnight. A solar powered house can similarly store energy in electric batteries, or flywheels. They are both solar.

    But of course, common sense seems to mean nothing to you. You
    just have to be "right".

    Common sense says that batteries are not solar energy even if
    you use a photovoltaic cell to charge them. Common sense says
    that if you're going to call a battery solar energy, then you
    can just as well call wind power or burning weed solar energy too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scout@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Sep 28 16:46:50 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message news:sivlag$aq4$1@dont-email.me...
    "Scout" wrote in message news:siv7tl$t50$7@dont-email.me...
    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message news:sitfja$nb7$1@dont-email.me...
    "Just Wondering" wrote in message news:Ssq4J.17545$IO1.13914@fx19.iad...

    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go
    figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    -----------------------

    "Totally solar" is a "black box" model which means that solar is your
    only source of electricity, it can include storage batteries to postpone
    the use of that electricity.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_box

    Average consumption 30 kilowatthours (kWh).

    Figure 16 hours of storage as a bare minimum

    100Ahr battery = 600 wh

    Minimum required 40 batteries.

    Cost about $8000 just for the batteries.

    Another $14,000 for the solar system

    Figure about $15,000 for installation.

    More for the lost floor space, or building to hold all this.

    And that only gets you through the day. If you don't have 8 hours of full charge... overcast, raining, snow, etc then your battery capacity requirements will go up drastically,.

    Then we need to calculate the pollution produced for all that hardware,
    the
    regular replacement of the batteries, panels and systems over a lifetime
    and
    then figure out if you're actually cutting emissions... or just spreading
    it
    around.

    Seems to me to be a lot of money and issues for a dubious reduction in pollution.

    --------------------------

    My backup system isn't nearly that large or expensive, and my normal consumption is under 5KWH per day.

    Ok, so first off we're going to have to eliminate a lot of stuff that's now required for modern homes.



    The backup supports a compact refrigerator and small freezer plus one or
    two laptops for cellular Internet and antenna television. For meals I run
    a 2KW inverter generator, or use the wood stove since most long outages
    here are from winter ice storms. Laundry requires a 3KW generator and kick-starting by releasing the old Maytag's belt tension with my foot on
    the motor. I freeze-dry the laundry on an outdoor clothes line, typically within the same day since winter humidity is very low.

    <yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

    Could you imagine a modern city with virtually everyone using wood for
    heating in the winter?

    Talk about pollution.

    Meanwhile, it seems clear that if the sun doesn't come out.... your
    semi-modern lifestyle comes to an end... or you fire up that extremely polluting fossil fuel generator to help you over the hump.

    Sorry, but I'm not seeing the workable solution that will be accepted by
    people who want nothing less than 3000 square foot homes and push button connivance for everything.

    I grew up in a home heated exclusively by wood, and let me tell you there
    were some COLD mornings, and getting up in the middle of the night,
    nevermind all the work over the summer putting up enough wood, which again
    city dwellers wouldn't have.

    So, while you have a 'solution' that works for you because you're willing to cut a lot of corners, and do the extra work, I'm still not sure if I'm
    seeing an overall improvement in the amount of pollution being produced, and certainly not something that I see 330 Million Americans who will be be
    willing to do that and live like that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scout@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Tue Sep 28 16:38:41 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message news:sivm81$i3s$1@dont-email.me...
    "Scout" wrote in message news:siv7tl$t50$8@dont-email.me...
    ....
    Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?
    ....

    ---------------------

    Be careful what you wish for, you may get it and suffer the consequences. https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/a34272175/wind-powered-sailboat-cargo-shipping-future/

    The better wooden sailing ships could do 15 knots, the best over 20.

    Typical container ship 20-25 knots... in all weather, in all conditions.

    It would be nice to go back to sail, but it would take many years to make
    the change over, and even then only some cargos would benefit from it.

    A little disruption in the supply chain, coupled with "just in time"
    inventory control means serious issues unless we undo much of what's been
    done to streamline and economize industry to reduce costs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scout@21:1/5 to Bob F on Tue Sep 28 16:32:07 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote in message news:sivg61$va0$2@dont-email.me...
    On 9/28/2021 7:02 AM, Scout wrote:


    "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote in message
    news:situno$el1$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/27/2021 6:17 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 5:00 PM, Bob F wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:12 PM, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/27/2021 2:15 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 28/09/2021 5:57 am, contact wrote:
    When the wind stops blowing, the electricity stops flowing!

    Interesting my house is totally solar and I have power at night. Go >>>>>>> figure

    We all figure that either "my house is totally solar" or "I have
    power at night" is a lie, because they can't both be true.

    No, we do not.
    Yes, they can.

    Explain how you get totally solar energy when the sun
    is below the horizon.

    I don't need to play your word games. The energy is solar, with some
    stored in batteries for later use. It is not hydro, it is not fossil
    fuel, it is solar.

    <Raises Hand>

    Can you tell me how you insure that the energy used to produce every
    component of the system, including transportation of such, used 100%
    solar power?

    Are cargo ships from China now equipped with solar powered engines?

    Are you aware that the primary source of the overwhelming bulk of solar
    equipment is from the biggest source of emissions and pollution on the
    planet?

    If you're just pushing the pollution to somewhere you don't see it, does
    that really change anything?

    Name a few power sources that do not have those costs.

    So solving the pollution isn't what you're after... just moving it somewhere else.... got it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 15:03:19 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 2:44 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    snip

    If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power.  But neither
    is what people mean when they say "solar power".

    So you know what is meant and I know what is meant so why your inane
    arguing?

    What you mean is that battery power is solar power. What I mean
    is that it is not. What I mean is science. What you mean requires
    that you ignore science.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 15:00:44 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 2:43 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    snip

    If you're happy with that inanity so be it

    I acknowledge the science.  So you think science is inane.  Got it.

    If aknowledge science you'll know all about the GHG properties of
    certain molecules

    What's under discussion is your mutually exclusive assertions that
    "my house is totally solar" and "I have power at night".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to Just Wondering on Wed Sep 29 07:11:08 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 29/09/2021 7:03 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/28/2021 2:44 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    snip

    If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power.  But neither
    is what people mean when they say "solar power".

    So you know what is meant and I know what is meant so why your inane
    arguing?

    What you mean is that battery power is solar power.  What I mean
    is that it is not.  What I mean is science.

    I'm sure you've kept up with the science as it's been known since the
    1800s. You'll also understand that these molecules don't change their properties from the lab to the atmosphere.
    I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
    reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters

    What you mean requires
    that you ignore science.

    So you're happy playing words games. I'm happy reducing GHG production

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 28 17:16:22 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Scout" wrote in message news:sivvh6$r3f$3@dont-email.me...



    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
    ...

    <yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

    --------------------

    Not at all, but I hope they understand the personal consequences of what
    they demand of others

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dechucka@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 29 07:33:12 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    snip
    So you're happy playing words games. I'm happy reducing GHG production

    You're happy trying to change the subject when you can't refute
    me on the facts.


    I'm happy that I'm reducing my reliance on fossil fuel. As I know it's
    been known since the 1800s that certain molecules are GHGs. I also
    understand that these molecules don't change their properties from the
    lab to the atmosphere.
    I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
    reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Just Wondering@21:1/5 to Dechucka on Tue Sep 28 15:27:07 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/28/2021 3:11 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    On 29/09/2021 7:03 am, Just Wondering wrote:
    On 9/28/2021 2:44 PM, Dechucka wrote:
    snip

    If battery power is solar power, so is hydro power.  But neither
    is what people mean when they say "solar power".

    So you know what is meant and I know what is meant so why your inane
    arguing?

    What you mean is that battery power is solar power.  What I mean
    is that it is not.  What I mean is science.

    I'm sure you've kept up with the science as it's been known since the
    1800s. You'll also understand that these molecules don't change their properties from the lab to the atmosphere.
    I'll do my bit while at the same time saving money and ensuring
    reliability esp during bush-fires and other natural disasters

    What you mean requires
    that you ignore science.

    So you're happy playing words games. I'm happy reducing GHG production

    You're happy trying to change the subject when you can't refute
    me on the facts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scout@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Wed Sep 29 08:47:46 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message news:sj00nr$4jd$1@dont-email.me...
    "Scout" wrote in message news:sivvh6$r3f$3@dont-email.me...



    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
    ...

    <yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

    --------------------

    Not at all, but I hope they understand the personal consequences of what
    they demand of others

    What personal consequences?

    Do what they want to do, how they want to do it?

    Yea, that's gotta be a bummer

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jim Wilkins@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Wed Sep 29 12:54:15 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    "Scout" wrote in message news:sj1olo$uka$1@dont-email.me...



    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message news:sj00nr$4jd$1@dont-email.me...
    "Scout" wrote in message news:sivvh6$r3f$3@dont-email.me...



    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
    ...

    <yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

    --------------------

    Not at all, but I hope they understand the personal consequences of what
    they demand of others

    What personal consequences?

    Do what they want to do, how they want to do it?

    Yea, that's gotta be a bummer

    ---------------------

    California leads the way with high time-of-use electric rates and outages.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob F@21:1/5 to Jim Wilkins on Wed Sep 29 11:06:05 2021
    XPost: talk.politics.guns, alt.energy.homepower

    On 9/29/2021 9:54 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
    "Scout"  wrote in message news:sj1olo$uka$1@dont-email.me...


    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message news:sj00nr$4jd$1@dont-email.me...
    "Scout"  wrote in message news:sivvh6$r3f$3@dont-email.me...



    "Jim Wilkins" <muratlanne@gmail.com> wrote in message
    ...

    <yawn> do you really expect people to make this change?

    --------------------

    Not at all, but I hope they understand the personal consequences of
    what they demand of others

    What personal consequences?

    Do what they want to do, how they want to do it?

    Yea, that's gotta be a bummer

    ---------------------

    California leads the way with high time-of-use electric rates and outages.

    If you don't include Texas.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)