• All VM-based development

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 9 19:54:31 2025
    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?
    Admittedly, there is a bit of a performance penalty vs.
    native iron. But, it could simplify things by allowing
    fewer physical hosts and shifting the burden to a bigger
    VM store (just more disk space -- which you'd already have
    for physical hosts!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From bitrex@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Jan 9 22:44:53 2025
    On 1/9/2025 9:54 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?
    Admittedly, there is a bit of a performance penalty vs.
    native iron.  But, it could simplify things by allowing
    fewer physical hosts and shifting the burden to a bigger
    VM store (just more disk space -- which you'd already have
    for physical hosts!)


    What's the advantage unless you're doing PC/mobile software development?

    Python already supports its own virtual environments, and running a
    Windows VM isn't much fun on a laptop..maybe on a desktop/server with
    lots of RAM.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sergey Kubushyn@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jan 10 04:54:25 2025
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?
    Admittedly, there is a bit of a performance penalty vs.
    native iron. But, it could simplify things by allowing
    fewer physical hosts and shifting the burden to a bigger
    VM store (just more disk space -- which you'd already have
    for physical hosts!)

    Ever tried to run Altium Designer PCB Editor in a VM?

    Please let us know when you succeed and explain how you did it.

    ---
    ******************************************************************
    * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
    * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Jan 10 01:09:55 2025
    On 1/9/2025 8:44 PM, bitrex wrote:
    On 1/9/2025 9:54 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?
    Admittedly, there is a bit of a performance penalty vs.
    native iron.  But, it could simplify things by allowing
    fewer physical hosts and shifting the burden to a bigger
    VM store (just more disk space -- which you'd already have
    for physical hosts!)

    What's the advantage unless you're doing PC/mobile software development?

    In the (ancient) past, I would archive the PC used for each project.
    This allowed me to freeze the tools and configuration in a way that
    I could return to for followup work on said project.

    Then, I started dumping images of the system disks onto tape (much
    cheaper than buying more 4G disks at $1K/each) from which I could
    then restore *a* machine to a given configuration.

    Then, replace the tapes with virtual machines residing on off-line
    disk drives.

    Most recently, move those VMs onto a SAN so they can be "reactivated"
    from any of my normal workstations.

    But, the NEXT step is to consolidate my current workstations into
    a single (?) box and virtualize all of the prior machines (knowing
    that the VMs will obviously fit on the media that held the original
    images -- just relocate them to the SAN). Presently, I have to swivel
    my chair and move from one keyboard/set-of-monitors to another to
    access any of the (6) workstations that I regularly use (each is
    equipped with software and peripherals appropriate for the tasks
    to be performed with it). Moving everything onto one (or a couple)
    host would simplify this and reduce the amount of equipment I have
    throwing off BTUs.

    Python already supports its own virtual environments, and running a Windows VM
    isn't much fun on a laptop..maybe on a desktop/server with lots of RAM.

    I rarely use a laptop (I have 7 of them, collecting dust -- I can't
    do much in a 17" screen, anymore!). All of my desktops have at least
    100G of RAM and a dozen+ cores so that's not an issue.

    And, as I don't need to run multiple VMs *concurrently* on a single
    host, the performance hit *seems* tolerable.

    [The workstation that I use for live video processing will remain
    dedicated to that task as I am *sure* a VM will result in problems]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Sergey Kubushyn on Fri Jan 10 01:10:22 2025
    On 1/9/2025 9:54 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?
    Admittedly, there is a bit of a performance penalty vs.
    native iron. But, it could simplify things by allowing
    fewer physical hosts and shifting the burden to a bigger
    VM store (just more disk space -- which you'd already have
    for physical hosts!)

    Ever tried to run Altium Designer PCB Editor in a VM?

    Please let us know when you succeed and explain how you did it.

    What problems are you having? Under which VM environment?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sergey Kubushyn@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jan 10 08:25:35 2025
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 1/9/2025 9:54 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?
    Admittedly, there is a bit of a performance penalty vs.
    native iron. But, it could simplify things by allowing
    fewer physical hosts and shifting the burden to a bigger
    VM store (just more disk space -- which you'd already have
    for physical hosts!)

    Ever tried to run Altium Designer PCB Editor in a VM?

    Please let us know when you succeed and explain how you did it.

    What problems are you having? Under which VM environment?

    Did you try it under ANY VM environment? Had it worked in ANY VM? Please
    share what environment it was.

    That is just one thing that doesn't even access some special hardware. Just
    a mere CAD, duh...

    ---
    ******************************************************************
    * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
    * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Sergey Kubushyn on Fri Jan 10 02:01:22 2025
    On 1/10/2025 1:25 AM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 1/9/2025 9:54 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?
    Admittedly, there is a bit of a performance penalty vs.
    native iron. But, it could simplify things by allowing
    fewer physical hosts and shifting the burden to a bigger
    VM store (just more disk space -- which you'd already have
    for physical hosts!)

    Ever tried to run Altium Designer PCB Editor in a VM?

    Please let us know when you succeed and explain how you did it.

    What problems are you having? Under which VM environment?

    Did you try it under ANY VM environment? Had it worked in ANY VM? Please share what environment it was.

    *YOU* are the one who has (apparently) attempted to "try it" and
    met with failure. I've asked you to explain how that failure
    manifested and what environment you were using.

    Is that too much to ask? The point of my post was to elicit
    SPECIFIC problems folks have had with this approach. I can
    then reevaluate how I might approach the issue.

    E.g., I am pretty sure my SDI video will be "tricky" to keep
    working in such an environment; so, easier to opt to preserve
    that entire workstation "as is" than to hope someone else
    *might* have such a card and MIGHT have tried using it in a
    particular VM environment.

    That is just one thing that doesn't even access some special hardware. Just
    a mere CAD, duh...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dave Platt@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Fri Jan 10 16:24:33 2025
    In article <vlqkks$3tbjk$3@dont-email.me>,
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    But, the NEXT step is to consolidate my current workstations into
    a single (?) box and virtualize all of the prior machines (knowing
    that the VMs will obviously fit on the media that held the original
    images -- just relocate them to the SAN).

    This seems to be a popular approach for people who are putting
    together a "home lab" and running a bunch of different services.

    The virtualization approaches range anywhere from simple
    Linux containers, to full hypervisor-level virtualization.

    Proxmox appears to be the most popular home-lab virtualization
    manager.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dave Platt on Fri Jan 10 18:13:48 2025
    On 1/10/2025 5:24 PM, Dave Platt wrote:
    In article <vlqkks$3tbjk$3@dont-email.me>,
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    But, the NEXT step is to consolidate my current workstations into
    a single (?) box and virtualize all of the prior machines (knowing
    that the VMs will obviously fit on the media that held the original
    images -- just relocate them to the SAN).

    This seems to be a popular approach for people who are putting
    together a "home lab" and running a bunch of different services.

    Yes, but those *tend* to be folks doing web development, etc.

    I deliberately asked, here, as the types of tools used *here*
    may suffer problems with this approach (witness Sergey's
    comment that Altium doesn't seem to run).

    It's a lot of work to build VMs for all of this stuff AND VERIFY
    THE APPS IN EACH! So, I was hoping for a "heads up" as to the types
    of things that were not going to like this.

    The virtualization approaches range anywhere from simple
    Linux containers, to full hypervisor-level virtualization.

    Proxmox appears to be the most popular home-lab virtualization
    manager.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Buzz McCool@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 15 12:43:20 2025
    On 1/9/2025 6:54 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?

    This is not quite what you are talking about, but I do all my
    development efforts on one hefty Linux server running a GUI Linux
    desktop accessed via a VNC session I ssh into.

    I have a Windows laptop at my office that does my web browsing and email
    and I just bring up the server VNC session to do design work. Likewise I
    ssh into the same VNC session with a Linux laptop at home. The VNC
    session is constantly up so I don't have to worry about losing my place.
    I can also go into a lab and bring up my VNC session on a lab computer.

    This way my laptops do not need to be powerful or need to save state and
    I don't need to physically drag them around if I don't want to.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Kragelund@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 15 23:18:20 2025
    On 10-01-2025 10:01, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/10/2025 1:25 AM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    On 1/9/2025 9:54 PM, Sergey Kubushyn wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?
    Admittedly, there is a bit of a performance penalty vs.
    native iron.  But, it could simplify things by allowing
    fewer physical hosts and shifting the burden to a bigger
    VM store (just more disk space -- which you'd already have
    for physical hosts!)

    Ever tried to run Altium Designer PCB Editor in a VM?

    Please let us know when you succeed and explain how you did it.

    What problems are you having?  Under which VM environment?

    Did you try it under ANY VM environment? Had it worked in ANY VM? Please
    share what environment it was.

    *YOU* are the one who has (apparently) attempted to "try it" and
    met with failure.  I've asked you to explain how that failure
    manifested and what environment you were using.

    Is that too much to ask?  The point of my post was to elicit
    SPECIFIC problems folks have had with this approach.  I can
    then reevaluate how I might approach the issue.

    E.g., I am pretty sure my SDI video will be "tricky" to keep
    working in such an environment; so, easier to opt to preserve
    that entire workstation "as is" than to hope someone else
    *might* have such a card and MIGHT have tried using it in a
    particular VM environment.

    That is just one thing that doesn't even access some special hardware.
    Just
    a mere CAD, duh...


    I looked into it a month ago since I got a new PC. My intention was to
    use it for the programs that could be updated often (compilers, maybe Altium/Orcad)

    Seems any VM and container takes significant resources (both CPU load,
    but more important memory). So I did not go through with it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Buzz McCool on Wed Jan 15 15:30:22 2025
    On 1/15/2025 1:43 PM, Buzz McCool wrote:
    On 1/9/2025 6:54 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?

    This is not quite what you are talking about, but I do all my development efforts on one hefty Linux server running a GUI Linux desktop accessed via a VNC session I ssh into.

    I only use my (BSD) boxes for software development. Most non-windows
    platforms are sorely crippled by the tools they have available. E.g.,
    I was building 3D CAD models in the early 90's -- deciding that the few kilobucks AutoDesk charged was easily recovered by the capabilities of
    their tools vs what was available on FOSS at the time (or even *now*!)

    I have X servers on the Windows machines so I can interact with the
    BSD hosts -- which all run headless. And, VNC running on all of the
    Windows hosts so I can interact with any from any other.

    But, this is clumsy as large native desktops require large hosting windows (fitting ANOTHER 5 pounds into the sack that the hosting machine has already stuffed with 5 pounds). So, I only use it for "little things" (like mounting/umounting an external share, moving files *into* that share
    so they can be accessed remotely, etc.)

    It would be tedious to, for example, work in Photoshop on machine #3 through
    a VNC session on machine #1. So, when doing so, I simply power up machine #3 and swivel my chair to face the monitors tied to machine #3.

    Trying to host EVERYTHING on a single machine is a nightmare because of
    how Windows does things.

    If, instead of powering up that other machine and swiveling my chair, I could just power up a VM and switch to it on *one* machine, then I don't have to worry about all those apps coexisting on ANY machine -- yet, have the
    ability to access them from a single (or pair of) workstation. Discard
    the extra hardware and upgrade the hosting system for "comparable" performance.

    I have a Windows laptop at my office that does my web browsing and email and I
    just bring up the server VNC session to do design work. Likewise I ssh into the
    same VNC session with a Linux laptop at home. The VNC session is constantly up
    so I don't have to worry about losing my place. I can also go into a lab and bring up my VNC session on a lab computer.

    I can't use laptops for anything but email and browsing the web. I've grown accustomed to having LOTS of display real estate. E.g., I tend to work in
    two or three 19/24/30" dia windows. It's annoying to have stuff covered
    by a window.

    So, the laptops sit in the closet (each in its own carrying case) waiting for "road trips" where I won't have to do any work but need a more useful interface than a phone/tablet can provide (I don't know how folks can do anything useful with a phone, other than TALK! My current phone is ~6" dia -- too large to carry -- and STILL too small to be useful!)

    This way my laptops do not need to be powerful or need to save state and I don't need to physically drag them around if I don't want to.

    Yes, that was my thinking with my server hosts. I can put gobs of resources, there, and "hide them" so they don't take up WORK space. This is fine for *most* applications, but not all (displaying rendered video from 3D models tends to get upset if the network is heavily loaded). The real appeal is
    being able to share media instead of duplicate it (I've ~200T spinning).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Klaus Kragelund on Wed Jan 15 18:27:57 2025
    On 1/15/2025 3:18 PM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
    I looked into it a month ago since I got a new PC. My intention was to use it for the programs that could be updated often (compilers, maybe Altium/Orcad)

    I *tend* not to update, often. But, have to preserve <whatever> versions
    of <whichever> tools I happened to have used for a particular project.

    Seems any VM and container takes significant resources (both CPU load, but more
    important memory). So I did not go through with it.

    My smallest box has 96G of RAM. Most are 144G or more (192G, 256G).

    For interactive applications, I suspect the performance hit falls
    into the noise as the applications tend to spend much of their time
    waiting on the user for input/direction.

    For BATCH applications, I don't sit and twiddle my thumbs "waiting";
    there is always some other thing that could use my attention. People
    who insist on having faster hardware to minimize thumb-twiddling-time
    just need to rethink HOW they work.

    What I am more concerned with is apps that may have taken measures
    to protect against virtualization. Or, peripheral devices that
    "misbehave". Or, apps that want to talk directly to the hardware
    and may have implicit timing dependencies in those interfaces.

    If I have to resort to different environments for different virtualizations, that would be an acceptable compromise (the goal here is to get rid
    of hardware).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Buzz McCool@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jan 17 13:12:54 2025
    On 1/15/2025 2:30 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I can't use laptops for anything but email and browsing the web.

    I also plug my laptops into larger monitor(s) for for things beside the
    above.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Buzz McCool on Fri Jan 17 16:12:11 2025
    On 1/17/2025 2:12 PM, Buzz McCool wrote:
    On 1/15/2025 2:30 PM, Don Y wrote:
    I can't use laptops for anything but email and browsing the web.

    I also plug my laptops into larger monitor(s) for for things beside the above.

    If your laptop allows the "video out" to run at a different
    resolution than the video routed to the LCD panel, you can
    benefit from larger screen size AND increased resolution.

    But, there is usually a limit to this. And, it's only available
    when that larger (external) display is available. So, when
    traveling, you'll have to hope your hosts at the destination
    have something similar available for you to use (while "working"
    as well as in your lodging).

    I simply decide not to do any "real work" while constrained
    by a laptop. I use it to ferry content to my destination,
    get "authenticated" access to my stores "back home" and to
    demonstrate concepts and finished work so I can discuss them
    "in person" (as well as email/WWW).

    I was "trapped" away from home for 3 months, unexpectedly, in
    one case. I ended up just using the laptop to compose code and
    documentation -- unable to TEST anything for lack of proper
    tools. It was *very* inefficient but, at least, allowed me
    to salvage part of that "away time".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Feb 4 08:23:16 2025
    On 1/9/2025 7:54 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Has anyone tried moving entirely to VM-based systems for
    their (hardware/software/documentation) development efforts?
    Admittedly, there is a bit of a performance penalty vs.
    native iron.  But, it could simplify things by allowing
    fewer physical hosts and shifting the burden to a bigger
    VM store (just more disk space -- which you'd already have
    for physical hosts!)

    Actually, this is working pretty good -- so far.

    My biggest complain (for Windows guests) is binding
    a screen size to a VM... and, wishing it could be
    "scaled-to-fit".

    But, I think I have a strategy to handle that!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)