• Cascading UPSs

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 6 14:22:01 2025
    I've a shitload of UPSs -- most in the office.

    Power *tends* to be pretty reliable, here, so they aren't
    used for their "backup" capability. However, we do tend to
    see "switching transients", predictably, at certain times
    of the day. So, having a "second" of carryover is often
    helpful (on the smaller machines; the larger ones have big
    enough power supplies that they can bridge these momentary
    outages)

    Instead, they tend to be "outlet multipliers" in much the
    same way as outlet strips might be (though a better form
    factor, given the layout of my kit). They let me connect
    all of the devices for a host to the UPS associated with that
    host. Then, power them all on/off at the same time.

    But, most importantly, it lets me get a feel for how much
    of a load I have on the mains -- so I don't carelessly
    add some new load that blows a breaker!

    Replacing batteries is a costly -- and time consuming -- exercise.
    A single "shared" battery would be the preferred solution. But,
    not possible with COTS UPSs (nor the associated IR drops).

    OTOH, I *could* plug more than one UPS into a single (or few)
    "master" UPS that effectively takes on the role of the mains
    connection. Then, I just have to keep that/those UPS running
    ("properly") to gain the benefits of bridging those brief glitches.

    Any downsides to this? If I remove the batteries from the
    "slave" UPSs (i.e., don't replace them when they fail), then
    I can avoid that maintenance issue but still retain the other
    advantages of the UPS-per-workstation.

    Or, maybe put some trivial "power source" in their place that
    is just enough to satisfy the UPSs' expectations of a "battery"?

    [I'd still have to put up with the "connect battery" messages
    but maybe I'll hack the firmware to "fix" that issue -- and,
    stop the silly scrolling of "screens" so I can just see the
    data of interest, constantly.]

    [[UPS manufacturers seem to have shitty/buggy/unfriendly software]]

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  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Jan 7 19:27:12 2025
    On 07-Jan-25 5:22 am, Don Y wrote:
    I've a shitload of UPSs -- most in the office.

    Power *tends* to be pretty reliable, here, so they aren't
    used for their "backup" capability.  However, we do tend to
    see "switching transients", predictably, at certain times
    of the day.  So, having a "second" of carryover is often
    helpful (on the smaller machines; the larger ones have big
    enough power supplies that they can bridge these momentary
    outages)

    Instead, they tend to be "outlet multipliers" in much the
    same way as outlet strips might be (though a better form
    factor, given the layout of my kit).  They let me connect
    all of the devices for a host to the UPS associated with that
    host.  Then, power them all on/off at the same time.

    But, most importantly, it lets me get a feel for how much
    of a load I have on the mains -- so I don't carelessly
    add some new load that blows a breaker!

    Replacing batteries is a costly -- and time consuming -- exercise.
    A single "shared" battery would be the preferred solution.  But,
    not possible with COTS UPSs (nor the associated IR drops).

    OTOH,  I *could* plug more than one UPS into a single (or few)
    "master" UPS that effectively takes on the role of the mains
    connection.  Then, I just have to keep that/those UPS running
    ("properly") to gain the benefits of bridging those brief glitches.

    Any downsides to this?  If I remove the batteries from the
    "slave" UPSs (i.e., don't replace them when they fail), then
    I can avoid that maintenance issue but still retain the other
    advantages of the UPS-per-workstation.

    Or, maybe put some trivial "power source" in their place that
    is just enough to satisfy the UPSs' expectations of a "battery"?

    [I'd still have to put up with the "connect battery" messages
    but maybe I'll hack the firmware to "fix" that issue -- and,
    stop the silly scrolling of "screens" so I can just see the
    data of interest, constantly.]

    [[UPS manufacturers seem to have shitty/buggy/unfriendly software]]


    Some UPS designs cannot be turned on[*] without a battery in them, even
    when supplied with mains power, because they cannot energise the relay
    that enables the mains connection.

    Sylvia.

    [*] They can stay on, just not be turned on.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Tue Jan 7 10:31:32 2025
    On 1/7/2025 4:27 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
    On 07-Jan-25 5:22 am, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH,  I *could* plug more than one UPS into a single (or few)
    "master" UPS that effectively takes on the role of the mains
    connection.  Then, I just have to keep that/those UPS running
    ("properly") to gain the benefits of bridging those brief glitches.

    Any downsides to this?  If I remove the batteries from the
    "slave" UPSs (i.e., don't replace them when they fail), then
    I can avoid that maintenance issue but still retain the other
    advantages of the UPS-per-workstation.

    Or, maybe put some trivial "power source" in their place that
    is just enough to satisfy the UPSs' expectations of a "battery"?

    Some UPS designs cannot be turned on[*] without a battery in them, even when supplied with mains power, because they cannot energise the relay that enables
    the mains connection.

    Hmmm... I've found devices that can't be powered on in the absence of
    MAINS voltage (which, IMO, is an annoyingly arbitrary constraint...
    suitable for discard). But, all seem to power on without a battery
    (assuming mains voltage is available) though may "complain" about the
    fact.

    These have the annoying habit of persistently displaying "Connect Battery" message -- which can't be dismissed (in favor of the other status messages).

    [*] They can stay on, just not be turned on.



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  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to Don Y on Tue Jan 7 12:21:51 2025
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> Wrote in message:r
    I've a shitload of UPSs -- most in the office.Power *tends* to be pretty reliable, here, so they aren'tused for their "backup" capability. However, we do tend tosee "switching transients", predictably, at certain timesof the day. So, having a "second"
    of carryover is oftenhelpful (on the smaller machines; the larger ones have bigenough power supplies that they can bridge these momentaryoutages)Instead, they tend to be "outlet multipliers" in much thesame way as outlet strips might be (though a better
    formfactor, given the layout of my kit). They let me connectall of the devices for a host to the UPS associated with thathost. Then, power them all on/off at the same time.But, most importantly, it lets me get a feel for how muchof a load I have on the
    mains -- so I don't carelesslyadd some new load that blows a breaker!Replacing batteries is a costly -- and time consuming -- exercise.A single "shared" battery would be the preferred solution. But,not possible with COTS UPSs (nor the associated IR
    drops).OTOH, I *could* plug more than one UPS into a single (or few)"master" UPS that effectively takes on the role of the mainsconnection. Then, I just have to keep that/those UPS running("properly") to gain the benefits of bridging those brief
    glitches.Any downsides to this? If I remove the batteries from the"slave" UPSs (i.e., don't replace them when they fail), thenI can avoid that maintenance issue but still retain the otheradvantages of the UPS-per-workstation.Or, maybe put some trivial "
    power source" in their place thatis just enough to satisfy the UPSs' expectations of a "battery"?[I'd still have to put up with the "connect battery" messagesbut maybe I'll hack the firmware to "fix" that issue -- and,stop the silly scrolling of "screens"
    so I can just see thedata of interest, constantly.][[UPS manufacturers seem to have shitty/buggy/unfriendly software]]

    Just put a smaller battery in them, have done it myself as a last
    ditch effort to keep the ups running.

    Cheers
    --


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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Rid on Tue Jan 7 10:33:29 2025
    On 1/7/2025 10:21 AM, Martin Rid wrote:
    Just put a smaller battery in them, have done it myself as a last
    ditch effort to keep the ups running.

    There's a limit to how small one can go. And, you need 2 (or 4)
    batteries per UPS.

    I'd rather put the money (and time) into one or two UPSs and
    use them to power the "battery-less" others.

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  • From Sylvia Else@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Jan 8 11:33:00 2025
    On 08-Jan-25 1:31 am, Don Y wrote:
    On 1/7/2025 4:27 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
    On 07-Jan-25 5:22 am, Don Y wrote:
    OTOH,  I *could* plug more than one UPS into a single (or few)
    "master" UPS that effectively takes on the role of the mains
    connection.  Then, I just have to keep that/those UPS running
    ("properly") to gain the benefits of bridging those brief glitches.

    Any downsides to this?  If I remove the batteries from the
    "slave" UPSs (i.e., don't replace them when they fail), then
    I can avoid that maintenance issue but still retain the other
    advantages of the UPS-per-workstation.

    Or, maybe put some trivial "power source" in their place that
    is just enough to satisfy the UPSs' expectations of a "battery"?

    Some UPS designs cannot be turned on[*] without a battery in them,
    even when supplied with mains power, because they cannot energise the
    relay that enables the mains connection.

    Hmmm... I've found devices that can't be powered on in the absence of
    MAINS voltage (which, IMO, is an annoyingly arbitrary constraint...
    suitable for discard).  But, all seem to power on without a battery (assuming mains voltage is available) though may "complain" about the
    fact.

    These have the annoying habit of persistently displaying "Connect Battery" message -- which can't be dismissed (in favor of the other status
    messages).

    [*] They can stay on, just not be turned on.





    In fairness to UPS designers, having the UPS able to start without a
    battery is an edge case they probably wouldn't have felt was important.

    I had an old UPS (sadly, now long dead) that behaved this way. The
    battery side was completely isolated[*] from the mains by a transformer,
    which allowed hot-swapping of the batteries (a feature described in the manual). But this was the same transformer as was used to generate the
    output voltage. Consequently, they had to ensure that there was no
    danger of back feeding the mains, which rather precluded relays whose
    default position was to connect the mains.

    Mind you, they also included an expensive component whose sole purpose
    was to ensure that the mains wasn't connected during an outage. This was perhaps a level of over-engineering that goes to explain why they no
    longer exist.

    Sylvia.

    [*] Which was not the case for the more recent UPS I bought to replace
    the old one.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Tue Jan 7 23:05:35 2025
    On 1/7/2025 8:33 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
    In fairness to UPS designers, having the UPS able to start without a battery is
    an edge case they probably wouldn't have felt was important.

    Dunno. But I *do* know that more recent models HAVE this ability (feature?)
    so it was either an intentional addition or serendipitous.

    It has been handy as the few 4-hr outages we have had (equipment failures
    in the network) have allowed me to run an extension cord from a (any) UPS
    in the office to floor lamps and TV to (appear to) have power for those
    4 hours.

    [The below grade cables have been failing, one at a time, in the neighborhood. At 40 years into their *20* year service life! depending on which end of the street is currently feeding us, we have at most one more outage to expect
    (as the cables from us to the 'near' feed point have all been replaced)]

    I had an old UPS (sadly, now long dead) that behaved this way. The battery side
    was completely isolated[*] from the mains by a transformer, which allowed hot-swapping of the batteries (a feature described in the manual). But this was
    the same transformer as was used to generate the output voltage. Consequently,
    they had to ensure that there was no danger of back feeding the mains, which rather precluded relays whose default position was to connect the mains.

    I've never looked at them beyond their (apparent) features, size and capacity, etc. They are frequently discarded, here. I suspect folks find that they don't perform an "essential function" (if outages are infrequent, then the
    cost of batteries dominates their utility: "I had to spend $100 to get a
    FEW MINUTES of 'graceful shutdown' during that ONE outage???"). I often
    rescue units with usable batteries simply because someone just decided it wasn't worth the space/whatever. (I've even rescued several high-end
    units NiB!)

    *MY* usage pattern is similar: "what does THIS unit buy me in terms of functionality?"

    For example, I rescued three SMC1500's a while back -- because their batteries were all fully charged (verified by powering the units on while out in the scrap yard):

    <https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/SMC1500/apc-smartups-c-line-interactive-1440va-tower-120v-8x-nema-515r-outlets-usb-and-serial-communication-avr-graphic-lcd-not-sold-in-the-us/>

    I had rejoiced thinking they had finally *integrated* the network connectivity into the units (these have in-built NICs) to save me the hassle of hunting for network management cards (NMCs).

    When I got them home, I discovered that the networking ability ONLY lets
    them talk tot he manufacturer's server. And, that I can talk to them
    VIA that server. (Really? You're going to give some company a
    beachhead inside your organization -- controlling the power to your
    servers, no less -- because they can't give you DIRECT access to the
    device on YOUR network???)

    So, they are of limited use, to me (I have one on this machine because
    this network is isolated from the rest of the house -- and, the UPS
    need not be accessible from this computer). They will make the
    trip back to the surplus yard, tomorrow. Hopefully, to be replaced
    by something "older" and more useful (like SMT1500s -- even if I have
    to hunt down NMCs for them!)

    <https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/SMT1500/apc-smartups-line-interactive-1500va-tower-120v-8x-nema-515r-outlets-smartslot-avr-lcd/>

    [I have spent the past hour pulling the battery packs from the SMC1500s for
    use in my SMT1500s]

    Mind you, they also included an expensive component whose sole purpose was to ensure that the mains wasn't connected during an outage. This was perhaps a level of over-engineering that goes to explain why they no longer exist.

    It seems that the UPS makers must rely on battery sales for their livelihood, given the number of discards I find. And, they have virtually *no* recycle value (batteries are ~20c/lb and the rest of the unit is worth < $5 for the minimal electronics, transformer and steel case)

    And, the home/SOHO markets have got to be "one time" purchases -- either
    they buy ONE and live with it or buy one and decide they don't WANT to
    live with it!

    Sylvia.

    [*] Which was not the case for the more recent UPS I bought to replace the old
    one.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Sylvia Else on Thu Jan 9 19:41:47 2025
    On 1/7/2025 4:27 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
    Some UPS designs cannot be turned on[*] without a battery in them, even when supplied with mains power, because they cannot energise the relay that enables
    the mains connection.

    I managed to stumble on one of these, today. An older APC Smart-UPS
    (with only LED indicators). No battery. Plugged it in and no signs
    of life.

    [Of course, it's possible that it was just broken -- after all, these
    ARE "scrapped" units so no telling why it was scrapped]

    Regardless, of little use to me without that capability so back to
    the scrap pile it went. We'll see what turns up tomorrow... (and
    I should remember to bring a VOM to check for salvageable batteries)

    Sylvia.

    [*] They can stay on, just not be turned on.



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  • From Bertrand Sindri@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jan 10 20:50:05 2025
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    And, the home/SOHO markets have got to be "one time" purchases

    The home/SOHO market is much more likely a "disposable appliance" where
    UPS'es are concerned.

    They buy one. When the ear peircing continuous scream of "battery
    gone" eventually occurs, they trash it and buy another new one.

    A small subset that would be willing to swap the battery /might/ look
    at the manufacturers cost for a replacement battery and then conclude
    that it is cheaper to just trash it and buy the one on sale on Amazon
    right now, because new battery for old unit is 110% the cost of the
    sale item on Amazon. So those become disposable appliances as well.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Bertrand Sindri on Fri Jan 10 14:41:20 2025
    On 1/10/2025 1:50 PM, Bertrand Sindri wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    And, the home/SOHO markets have got to be "one time" purchases

    The home/SOHO market is much more likely a "disposable appliance" where UPS'es are concerned.

    They buy one. When the ear peircing continuous scream of "battery
    gone" eventually occurs, they trash it and buy another new one.

    I suspect the sorts of people who would have bought these are the
    same sorts who would have bought a (crappy) "tape backup" unit
    (nowadays, that would be a shingled external disk) thinking they
    were "doing things right".

    The reality would eventually sink in when (as you say) it "demanded
    attention". (By contrast, the tape/disk backup would silently
    become "unused")

    I brought a small unit home for a neighbor to power her CPAP
    (as she was talking about buying one). I suspect the same
    will happen with her usage -- outages being so infrequent
    (and, she would have to be using the CPAP, at the time, for
    it to matter) that it just becomes a bulky "outlet strip"
    by the bed.

    A small subset that would be willing to swap the battery /might/ look
    at the manufacturers cost for a replacement battery and then conclude
    that it is cheaper to just trash it and buy the one on sale on Amazon
    right now, because new battery for old unit is 110% the cost of the
    sale item on Amazon. So those become disposable appliances as well.

    What I find more amusing is the number of (likely) commercial users
    who must be discarding them -- that assumption based on the size and
    cost of the units I see (2U, $1K+). This week's pile of discards:

    <https://mega.nz/file/JzhE3R5C#2q6j98sBJ2uSW7z5VjmoJcYCgYIUnz8kVcZlpW6j4-Q>

    (sigh) Maybe there should be a warning printed on the package to
    discourage unnecessary purchases? <frown>

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  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Jan 10 23:14:17 2025
    On 2025-01-08 07:05, Don Y wrote:

    ...

    It seems that the UPS makers must rely on battery sales for their
    livelihood,
    given the number of discards I find.  And, they have virtually *no* recycle value (batteries are ~20c/lb and the rest of the unit is worth < $5 for the minimal electronics, transformer and steel case)

    Some units kill batteries faster than others.

    It happens when they leave them permanently charging, theoretically to
    100%. Others fully stop the charger and leave the battery alone for
    hours. With this method, unless there are mains failures, the battery
    last 5 years instead of 2.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

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  • From Carlos E.R.@21:1/5 to Bertrand Sindri on Fri Jan 10 23:15:35 2025
    On 2025-01-10 21:50, Bertrand Sindri wrote:
    Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
    And, the home/SOHO markets have got to be "one time" purchases

    The home/SOHO market is much more likely a "disposable appliance" where UPS'es are concerned.

    They buy one. When the ear peircing continuous scream of "battery
    gone" eventually occurs, they trash it and buy another new one.

    A small subset that would be willing to swap the battery /might/ look
    at the manufacturers cost for a replacement battery and then conclude
    that it is cheaper to just trash it and buy the one on sale on Amazon
    right now, because new battery for old unit is 110% the cost of the
    sale item on Amazon. So those become disposable appliances as well.

    I buy new UPS batteries (brand is irrelevant) at a local shop.

    --
    Cheers, Carlos.

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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Carlos E.R. on Fri Jan 10 16:52:12 2025
    On 1/10/2025 3:14 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
    On 2025-01-08 07:05, Don Y wrote:

    ...

    It seems that the UPS makers must rely on battery sales for their livelihood,
    given the number of discards I find.  And, they have virtually *no* recycle >> value (batteries are ~20c/lb and the rest of the unit is worth < $5 for the >> minimal electronics, transformer and steel case)

    Some units kill batteries faster than others.

    APCs tend to drift, over time. So, they end up charging to a cell
    voltage that is too high and "cook" the batteries. Because the
    reference drifts, the software doesn't know what is happening
    to the batteries.

    Also, folks who replace one (or two or three) instead of ALL of the
    batteries in the pack just accelerate the problem.

    Even if the user IGNORES the "replace battery" alert, the software should
    still take steps to prevent dumping charge into a battery that is now
    toast (causing it to swell and get stuck in the case).

    It happens when they leave them permanently charging, theoretically to 100%. Others fully stop the charger and leave the battery alone for hours. With this
    method, unless there are mains failures, the battery last 5 years instead of 2

    One can argue that the batteries should be recharged as quickly as
    possible -- to be able to provide the stated carrying time if another
    outage occurs in, e.g., < 10 hours. OTOH, a gentler approach might
    increase longevity at the expense of risk in the short term.

    The fact that the device is powered on "forever" means it SHOULD be able
    to learn about the environment in which it has been deployed. But, these devices tend to have dinky little MCUs running the show... as if they
    were just bits of (dumb) hardware.

    [It is sorely tempting to reverse engineer the code in one of their
    controllers just to see how naively it has been implemented!]

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