Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes
a frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?
The body page one currently recognized as page 14.
Annoying.
On 12/22/2024 2:52 PM, legg wrote:
Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes
a frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?
If your page numbering is *within* the document (e.g., a header of your
own creation), then it is entirely up to you what form it takes, where it
is placed, when it appears, etc. (e.g., often the first page of a chapter
has no visible page number)
The body page one currently recognized as page 14.
The PDF format only deals with ordinality when it comes to page numbers.
Annoying.
Use the tool upstream of your PDF distiller to impose whatever numbering >scheme you want. E.g., I never label the first page of a document,
use "lowercase" roman numerals for front matter, <chapter>-<page> for
body pages (and <chapter>-<figure> as well as <chapter>-<table> for
their corresponding materials) and INDEX-<page> for the index.
Set your PDF to open with thumbnail views visible and the viewer can
usually quickly find the page of interest from them.
[Though I've never made a document of more than ~600 pages so it's easy
to find thumbnails of chapter starts and offset from there]
I want the pdf reader to 'recognize' page numbers from the print,
even if I have to do it manually on a per-page basis.
The pdf document is intended as a replica of existing hard copy,
so those original numbers/roman numerals can't change.
Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes
a frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?
The body page one currently recognized as page 14.
Annoying.
RL
On Sun, 22 Dec 2024 15:19:05 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 12/22/2024 2:52 PM, legg wrote:
Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes
a frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?
If your page numbering is *within* the document (e.g., a header of your
own creation), then it is entirely up to you what form it takes, where it
is placed, when it appears, etc. (e.g., often the first page of a chapter
has no visible page number)
The body page one currently recognized as page 14.
The PDF format only deals with ordinality when it comes to page numbers.
Annoying.
Use the tool upstream of your PDF distiller to impose whatever numbering
scheme you want. E.g., I never label the first page of a document,
use "lowercase" roman numerals for front matter, <chapter>-<page> for
body pages (and <chapter>-<figure> as well as <chapter>-<table> for
their corresponding materials) and INDEX-<page> for the index.
Set your PDF to open with thumbnail views visible and the viewer can
usually quickly find the page of interest from them.
[Though I've never made a document of more than ~600 pages so it's easy
to find thumbnails of chapter starts and offset from there]
I want the pdf reader to 'recognize' page numbers from the print,
even if I have to do it manually on a per-page basis.
The pdf document is intended as a replica of existing hard copy,
so those original numbers/roman numerals can't change.
On 12/22/2024 5:04 PM, legg wrote:
I want the pdf reader to 'recognize' page numbers from the print,
even if I have to do it manually on a per-page basis.
The pdf document is intended as a replica of existing hard copy,
so those original numbers/roman numerals can't change.
In Acrobat, you can assign "Page Labels" as synonyms for the
ordinals used.
You open the thumbnails view (left side pane) and click on the
"options" dropdown. There, use "Page Labels..." to pick a
style, start point, etc. for the thumbnails THAT YOU HAVE
PRESENTLY SELECTED.
This will not change the page "number" -- so, the first page
will still be '1'. But, it will appear as 'i' if you have selected
the first page in a group of pages to use the "i, ii, iii..."
LABELING scheme.
[This is called a "section"]
The pages after the selected group will constitute another
"section" and will be LABELED (as different from NUMBERED)
beginning with '1' (as expected).
For non-Adobe tools... <shrug>
Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes a frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?The body page one currently recword ognized as page 14.Annoying.RL
For non-Adobe tools... <shrug>
It'll have to be somebody else who has the right software, then.
I get pdfs either from a scan or through printing utilities.
No intention of giving Adobe money for a format that was developed
for common usage.
Thought it might take if I processed it through html formatting,
but that didn't seem to 'take' either.
On Sun, 22 Dec 2024 17:58:16 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 12/22/2024 5:04 PM, legg wrote:It'll have to be somebody else who has the right software, then.
I want the pdf reader to 'recognize' page numbers from the print,
even if I have to do it manually on a per-page basis.
The pdf document is intended as a replica of existing hard copy,
so those original numbers/roman numerals can't change.
In Acrobat, you can assign "Page Labels" as synonyms for the
ordinals used.
You open the thumbnails view (left side pane) and click on the
"options" dropdown. There, use "Page Labels..." to pick a
style, start point, etc. for the thumbnails THAT YOU HAVE
PRESENTLY SELECTED.
This will not change the page "number" -- so, the first page
will still be '1'. But, it will appear as 'i' if you have selected
the first page in a group of pages to use the "i, ii, iii..."
LABELING scheme.
[This is called a "section"]
The pages after the selected group will constitute another
"section" and will be LABELED (as different from NUMBERED)
beginning with '1' (as expected).
For non-Adobe tools... <shrug>
I get pdfs either from a scan or through printing utilities.
No intention of giving Adobe money for a format that was developed
for common usage.
Thought it might take if I processed it through html formatting,
but that didn't seem to 'take' either.
RL
On 2024-12-23 11:34, legg wrote:
On Sun, 22 Dec 2024 17:58:16 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 12/22/2024 5:04 PM, legg wrote:
I want the pdf reader to 'recognize' page numbers from the print,
even if I have to do it manually on a per-page basis.
The pdf document is intended as a replica of existing hard copy,
so those original numbers/roman numerals can't change.
In Acrobat, you can assign "Page Labels" as synonyms for the
ordinals used.
For non-Adobe tools... <shrug>It'll have to be somebody else who has the right software, then.
I get pdfs either from a scan or through printing utilities.
No intention of giving Adobe money for a format that was developed
for common usage.
Thought it might take if I processed it through html formatting,
but that didn't seem to 'take' either.
RL
Have you looked at Libreoffice?
https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/how-do-i-paginate-completed-document/58798
Have you looked at Libreoffice?
https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/how-do-i-paginate-completed-document/58798
That is what I did. The pages are numbered correctly inside LO and in the printed result, and in the PDF export. However, the page counter in the PDF viewer doesn't reflect numbering styles or renumbering.
legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> Wrote in message:rIn Word (doc), or Mozilla Composer (html) I'm formatting individual
Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes a frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?The body page one currently recword ognized as page 14.Annoying.RL
if your using word, then use a section break and insert your
page number. You can deattach the sections from one another to
number them separately.
Cheers
On 12/23/2024 9:34 AM, legg wrote:
For non-Adobe tools... <shrug>
It'll have to be somebody else who has the right software, then.
If it is something you can put on a web site, I'll be happy to
add the "sections" to correspond with the numbering as it
appears on the individual pages.
I get pdfs either from a scan or through printing utilities.
No intention of giving Adobe money for a format that was developed
for common usage.
I buy tools that solve problems. I don't really care who gets
paid for them as long as there is a net value added in the
products that I produce with them. Adobe did, after all, create
PostScript.
Thought it might take if I processed it through html formatting,
but that didn't seem to 'take' either.
I suspect this is a common enough problem that there are other
(non-Adobe) solutions out there. In a pinch (for a "one off"),
you could directly edit the EPS.
[I do this in reverse; I use Illustrator to create drawings
and then extract the specific PS commands to paste into other
documents. Saves me the trouble of having to develop a
"drawing application".]
For folks thinking PDFs are just "electronic books", that's likely
an acceptable tradeoff. OTOH, if you want to explain the difference
between the different speaking accents of New Yorkers, Bostonians, Chicagoans, etc., it's much easier to embed three audio clips
and let the "reader" HEAR them instead of trying to describe them textually. Similarly, instead of publishing N different views of
a 3D object to give the reader an idea of how it is constructed,
it's much easier to embed a 3D model IN the document and let the
reader explore it in whatever manner HE deems appropriate.
These are things that you can't do with paper books.
The thing I'm working on now is 422 pages with a 5000 line index.
I'm not going through THAT, manually inserting links.
A preliminary draft ( there are already 40 pages updated for
the next draft) is available for comment and criticism.
At 100Meg ( but getting smaller) it may be a slow download.
Few will find the actual content of interest.
http://ve3ute.ca/prairie_gold/sample_241220.zip
Keep in mind that this is a replica - all original spelling,
formatting and layout (including original errors) is intentionally
preserved. Unless you've got an original hard copy, it may be
hard to tell what's wrong - but overlapping images/text,
or ocr source errors (rn / m , 1/l/I CG e/a) still abound.
OCR on this was so bad that the output was often useless as
a textual contribution, but could sometimes be edited and
reformatted manually. PDF-OCR scanned page file size was
also 3 to 30 x larger than a pdf published from a text-corrected
doc.
I get pdfs either from a scan or through printing utilities.
No intention of giving Adobe money for a format that was developed
for common usage.
I buy tools that solve problems. I don't really care who gets
paid for them as long as there is a net value added in the
products that I produce with them. Adobe did, after all, create
PostScript.
I think you'll find that you are misled in Adobe's original
source for the pdf and eps files' original development.
They were always intended to be open source.
There is no money in this work; or for anybody involved.
Thought it might take if I processed it through html formatting,
but that didn't seem to 'take' either.
I suspect this is a common enough problem that there are other
(non-Adobe) solutions out there. In a pinch (for a "one off"),
you could directly edit the EPS.
[I do this in reverse; I use Illustrator to create drawings
and then extract the specific PS commands to paste into other
documents. Saves me the trouble of having to develop a
"drawing application".]
RL
On 12/24/2024 12:31 PM, Don Y wrote:
For folks thinking PDFs are just "electronic books", that's likely
an acceptable tradeoff. OTOH, if you want to explain the difference
between the different speaking accents of New Yorkers, Bostonians,
Chicagoans, etc., it's much easier to embed three audio clips
and let the "reader" HEAR them instead of trying to describe them
textually. Similarly, instead of publishing N different views of
a 3D object to give the reader an idea of how it is constructed,
it's much easier to embed a 3D model IN the document and let the
reader explore it in whatever manner HE deems appropriate.
These are things that you can't do with paper books.
Well, technically, you can distribute other *media* with a paper
book that addresses some of these issues. E.g., I have a book
titled _Mouth Sounds_ that includes a (flimsy) "45" to be played
on a phonograph to "hear" the sounds described. Others have
included CDs affixed to back covers, etc.
On 24/12/2024 20:07, Don Y wrote:
On 12/24/2024 12:31 PM, Don Y wrote:
For folks thinking PDFs are just "electronic books", that's likely
an acceptable tradeoff. OTOH, if you want to explain the difference
between the different speaking accents of New Yorkers, Bostonians,
Chicagoans, etc., it's much easier to embed three audio clips
and let the "reader" HEAR them instead of trying to describe them
textually. Similarly, instead of publishing N different views of
a 3D object to give the reader an idea of how it is constructed,
it's much easier to embed a 3D model IN the document and let the
reader explore it in whatever manner HE deems appropriate.
These are things that you can't do with paper books.
Well, technically, you can distribute other *media* with a paper
book that addresses some of these issues. E.g., I have a book
titled _Mouth Sounds_ that includes a (flimsy) "45" to be played
on a phonograph to "hear" the sounds described. Others have
included CDs affixed to back covers, etc.
I'm not completely sure you are fully understanding what the OP wants. I think
he has the page numbers showing correctly in the headers of all his pages but
wants to have the reader itself know the page numbers he used in his headings so that he can tell the reader to go to page 17 and it goes to the page with "17" in the header and shows page 17 / whatever as it's status.
wants to have the reader itself know the page numbers he used in his headings
so that he can tell the reader to go to page 17 and it goes to the page with >> "17" in the header and shows page 17 / whatever as it's status.
That's exactly what the doctored PDF that I provided does (at least using Adobe's products). I can type "II" (roman numeral 2) in the page number
box and it will move to the page bearing the LABEL "II" -- which happens
to be the tenth page in the document.
On Mon, 23 Dec 2024 12:22:53 -0500 (EST), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> Wrote in message:rIn Word (doc), or Mozilla Composer (html) I'm formatting individual
Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes a
frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?The body page one currently
recword ognized as page 14.Annoying.RL
if your using word, then use a section break and insert your
page number. You can deattach the sections from one another to number
them separately.
Cheers
pages.
The only time they get 'sewed up' is in the final pdf file.
RL
I am fairly certain that what you want cannot be done with a PDF, based on reading many documents where this would have been beneficial, such as the 3544 page Florida Building Code where the page labeled as (RAS)109.1 is
PDF page 2625, or the 1235 page Square-D Digest with page 22-1 on PDF page 968. Both of these documents are made tolerable by links to major
sections from the index. The Square-D Digest is exceptional in providing hyperlinks to web documents with part specs, drawings and CAD files for almost everything in the catalog.
[Apologies if duplicate; apparently some issues with ES?]
On 12/24/2024 6:51 AM, legg wrote:
The thing I'm working on now is 422 pages with a 5000 line index.
I'm not going through THAT, manually inserting links.
I can (have) "fix" the page numbers that appear in teh PDF viewer
(at least Adobe's products; I don't use any of the "knock off" tools)
But, adding hyperlinks is something that you would either have
to do manually or write a script (and hope for the best).
When I build a document with an index (or other cross references),
I place markers in the text and the DTP tool uses these to determine
the final "rendering place" for the reference to place in the
index, etc.
It similarly builds the hyperlinks for the PDF.
Expecting a tool to do this /ex post factum/ (e.g., to a scanned/OCRed
image) might be wishful thinking.
[When I scan documents, I don't even bother with the OCR as my goal
is simply to replace the paper document with an electronic version
having all the capabilities (content) and _limitations_ (e.g., no
automated search) of the original. This makes it a LOT easier to
process paper! (I've scanned over 100,000 sheets -- both sides -- of
such documents in the past year)]
A preliminary draft ( there are already 40 pages updated for
the next draft) is available for comment and criticism.
At 100Meg ( but getting smaller) it may be a slow download.
Few will find the actual content of interest.
http://ve3ute.ca/prairie_gold/sample_241220.zip
I made the changes that I mentioned, upthread, and posted a revised
copy at:
<https://mega.nz/file/I75REDIA#RFxRfVNXa_jhw3jcyv2_UeTGJ1iRwlUDC4hHk6x15bc>
(ignore the viewer and click on the DOWNLOAD button on the lower right)
I've appended 3 screenshots to the document (you should remove them;
I just used the PDF as a convenient "package" to transport them)
showing how three "significant" pages appear in Acrobat: note the
front cover appears as having a "blank" page LABEL -- yet appears
described as "(1 of...)" while page "I" shows the label "I" with
"(9 of ...)" and page "1" appears with the label "1" and "(15 of ...)"
[Note that "..." is 3 pages longer than your original for the reason >mentioned above]
I'd be more than happy to do this again -- for revisions of this
document or others.
That was the sort of Reader output that I had in mind.
I'll pay more attention to the features offered by my
pdf publishing utility, (pdf995) to see what results I
can get here.
If I can't wrestle it into shape, I may take you up on
your offer, just to get this out of my hair, after revisions.
I'd normally add or remove pages by printing partial portions,
then rejoining them.
That doesn't appear to be practical
if 'sections' carry un-numbered or oddly-paginated groups.
0 seems particularly problematic.
How would an end-user print the copyright page, or dedication
page, if the select-page-to-print area of the gui offers
pages ' -425 ' ?
Many thanks.
RL
On 12/25/2024 7:10 AM, legg wrote:
That was the sort of Reader output that I had in mind.
I don't know what it "looks" like in other viewers. And,
apparently, many don't support searching for page labels;
they think of pages as being *numbered*.
I'll pay more attention to the features offered by my
pdf publishing utility, (pdf995) to see what results I
can get here.
Can't help you, there. I use FrameMaker (et al.) for
my DTP needs; they are reasonably well integrated so
I can tell one what I want *it* to tell the others...
If I can't wrestle it into shape, I may take you up on
your offer, just to get this out of my hair, after revisions.
Truly no problem. The download and sneakernet into my office
was the biggest "effort". Adjusting the page labels is:
- open thumbnails
- select a set of pages to be labeled
- open "Label Pages..." dialog
- select style (1,2,3; i,ii,ii; A,B,C; etc.)
- APPLY
I'd normally add or remove pages by printing partial portions,
then rejoining them.
In Acrobat, I just select the thumbnails for the pages to delete and then
hit DELETE. I will have to see how the labels alter if I cut a section
out of the middle. I would imagine the FIRST page in a section is the
most critical (as it likely contains the sequencing information for its >successors)
I should see how rotated pages fit in the mix (they shouldn't
be handled any differently -- but, "you never know")
[I frequently put a B-size "fold out" in the middle of a document
and often only the recto side is numbered]
That doesn't appear to be practical
if 'sections' carry un-numbered or oddly-paginated groups.
0 seems particularly problematic.
I would address '0' as "0"; in much the same way as "IV"
or "COVER"
How would an end-user print the copyright page, or dedication
page, if the select-page-to-print area of the gui offers
pages ' -425 ' ?
With the labeling facility, you can specify "" (empty/blank)
as the page label -- as I did for the cover and early front matter
in your example.
If your viewer/reader software can search for page labels (which
is what all *should* be able to do as labels go WAY back in the >specification's history -- for obvious reasons), you could exploit
that ability to quickly access particular pages ("INDEX", "TABLES",
etc.) in the absence of hyperlinks in the document (of course this
means abandoning the VISIBLE page number on that page)
On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 11:47:30 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 12/25/2024 7:10 AM, legg wrote:
That was the sort of Reader output that I had in mind.
I don't know what it "looks" like in other viewers. And,
apparently, many don't support searching for page labels;
they think of pages as being *numbered*.
I'll pay more attention to the features offered by my
pdf publishing utility, (pdf995) to see what results I
can get here.
Can't help you, there. I use FrameMaker (et al.) for
my DTP needs; they are reasonably well integrated so
I can tell one what I want *it* to tell the others...
If I can't wrestle it into shape, I may take you up on
your offer, just to get this out of my hair, after revisions.
Truly no problem. The download and sneakernet into my office
was the biggest "effort". Adjusting the page labels is:
- open thumbnails
- select a set of pages to be labeled
- open "Label Pages..." dialog
- select style (1,2,3; i,ii,ii; A,B,C; etc.)
- APPLY
I'd normally add or remove pages by printing partial portions,
then rejoining them.
In Acrobat, I just select the thumbnails for the pages to delete and then >>hit DELETE. I will have to see how the labels alter if I cut a section
out of the middle. I would imagine the FIRST page in a section is the
most critical (as it likely contains the sequencing information for its >>successors)
I should see how rotated pages fit in the mix (they shouldn't
be handled any differently -- but, "you never know")
[I frequently put a B-size "fold out" in the middle of a document
and often only the recto side is numbered]
That doesn't appear to be practical
if 'sections' carry un-numbered or oddly-paginated groups.
0 seems particularly problematic.
I would address '0' as "0"; in much the same way as "IV"
or "COVER"
How would an end-user print the copyright page, or dedication
page, if the select-page-to-print area of the gui offers
pages ' -425 ' ?
With the labeling facility, you can specify "" (empty/blank)
as the page label -- as I did for the cover and early front matter
in your example.
If your viewer/reader software can search for page labels (which
is what all *should* be able to do as labels go WAY back in the >>specification's history -- for obvious reasons), you could exploit
that ability to quickly access particular pages ("INDEX", "TABLES",
etc.) in the absence of hyperlinks in the document (of course this
means abandoning the VISIBLE page number on that page)
I notice that the Foxit reader doesn't recognize the new labeling.
That's pretty popular.
RL
On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 11:47:30 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 12/25/2024 7:10 AM, legg wrote:
That was the sort of Reader output that I had in mind.
I don't know what it "looks" like in other viewers. And,
apparently, many don't support searching for page labels;
they think of pages as being *numbered*.
I'll pay more attention to the features offered by my
pdf publishing utility, (pdf995) to see what results I
can get here.
Can't help you, there. I use FrameMaker (et al.) for
my DTP needs; they are reasonably well integrated so
I can tell one what I want *it* to tell the others...
If I can't wrestle it into shape, I may take you up on
your offer, just to get this out of my hair, after revisions.
Truly no problem. The download and sneakernet into my office
was the biggest "effort". Adjusting the page labels is:
- open thumbnails
- select a set of pages to be labeled
- open "Label Pages..." dialog
- select style (1,2,3; i,ii,ii; A,B,C; etc.)
- APPLY
I'd normally add or remove pages by printing partial portions,
then rejoining them.
In Acrobat, I just select the thumbnails for the pages to delete and then
hit DELETE. I will have to see how the labels alter if I cut a section
out of the middle. I would imagine the FIRST page in a section is the
most critical (as it likely contains the sequencing information for its
successors)
I should see how rotated pages fit in the mix (they shouldn't
be handled any differently -- but, "you never know")
[I frequently put a B-size "fold out" in the middle of a document
and often only the recto side is numbered]
That doesn't appear to be practical
if 'sections' carry un-numbered or oddly-paginated groups.
0 seems particularly problematic.
I would address '0' as "0"; in much the same way as "IV"
or "COVER"
How would an end-user print the copyright page, or dedication
page, if the select-page-to-print area of the gui offers
pages ' -425 ' ?
With the labeling facility, you can specify "" (empty/blank)
as the page label -- as I did for the cover and early front matter
in your example.
If your viewer/reader software can search for page labels (which
is what all *should* be able to do as labels go WAY back in the
specification's history -- for obvious reasons), you could exploit
that ability to quickly access particular pages ("INDEX", "TABLES",
etc.) in the absence of hyperlinks in the document (of course this
means abandoning the VISIBLE page number on that page)
I notice that the Foxit reader doesn't recognize the new labeling.
That's pretty popular.
On 12/22/2024 2:52 PM, legg wrote:
Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes
a frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?
If your page numbering is *within* the document (e.g., a header of your
own creation), then it is entirely up to you what form it takes, where it
is placed, when it appears, etc. (e.g., often the first page of a chapter
has no visible page number)
The body page one currently recognized as page 14.
The PDF format only deals with ordinality when it comes to page numbers.
Annoying.
Use the tool upstream of your PDF distiller to impose whatever numbering >scheme you want. E.g., I never label the first page of a document,
use "lowercase" roman numerals for front matter, <chapter>-<page> for
body pages (and <chapter>-<figure> as well as <chapter>-<table> for
their corresponding materials) and INDEX-<page> for the index.
Set your PDF to open with thumbnail views visible and the viewer can
usually quickly find the page of interest from them.
[Though I've never made a document of more than ~600 pages so it's easy
to find thumbnails of chapter starts and offset from there]
adobe is a MS kind of tool.
Professionals use TeX.
I generated the ciforth documentation with texinfo.
In ghostview the two cover pages appear as 1 2 in the page column,
The body is on the third page with a page number 1.
The content are on the end, showing negative numbers in the page column,
and are marked I ,, XII .
In article <vka38r$qekf$1@dont-email.me>,
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 12/22/2024 2:52 PM, legg wrote:
Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes
a frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?
If your page numbering is *within* the document (e.g., a header of your
own creation), then it is entirely up to you what form it takes, where it >>is placed, when it appears, etc. (e.g., often the first page of a chapter >>has no visible page number)
The body page one currently recognized as page 14.
The PDF format only deals with ordinality when it comes to page numbers.
Annoying.
Use the tool upstream of your PDF distiller to impose whatever numbering >>scheme you want. E.g., I never label the first page of a document,
use "lowercase" roman numerals for front matter, <chapter>-<page> for
body pages (and <chapter>-<figure> as well as <chapter>-<table> for
their corresponding materials) and INDEX-<page> for the index.
Set your PDF to open with thumbnail views visible and the viewer can >>usually quickly find the page of interest from them.
[Though I've never made a document of more than ~600 pages so it's easy
to find thumbnails of chapter starts and offset from there]
adobe is a MS kind of tool.
Professionals use TeX.
I generated the ciforth documentation with texinfo.
In ghostview the two cover pages appear as 1 2 in the page column,
The body is on the third page with a page number 1.
The content are on the end, showing negative numbers in the page column,
and are marked I ,, XII .
Groetjes Albert
On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 15:07:16 +0100, albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl wrote:
In article <vka38r$qekf$1@dont-email.me>,
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 12/22/2024 2:52 PM, legg wrote:
Anyone have any idea how to publish a pdf so that it recognizes
a frontispiece with roman numeral pagination?
If your page numbering is *within* the document (e.g., a header of your
own creation), then it is entirely up to you what form it takes, where it >>> is placed, when it appears, etc. (e.g., often the first page of a chapter >>> has no visible page number)
The body page one currently recognized as page 14.
The PDF format only deals with ordinality when it comes to page numbers. >>>
Annoying.
Use the tool upstream of your PDF distiller to impose whatever numbering >>> scheme you want. E.g., I never label the first page of a document,
use "lowercase" roman numerals for front matter, <chapter>-<page> for
body pages (and <chapter>-<figure> as well as <chapter>-<table> for
their corresponding materials) and INDEX-<page> for the index.
Set your PDF to open with thumbnail views visible and the viewer can
usually quickly find the page of interest from them.
[Though I've never made a document of more than ~600 pages so it's easy
to find thumbnails of chapter starts and offset from there]
adobe is a MS kind of tool.
Professionals use TeX.
I generated the ciforth documentation with texinfo.
In ghostview the two cover pages appear as 1 2 in the page column,
The body is on the third page with a page number 1.
The content are on the end, showing negative numbers in the page column,
and are marked I ,, XII .
Groetjes Albert
I've heard TeX pushed in tech forums, but tech publishers and
regulators specify the format for submissions, and it ain't TeX.
RL
I've heard TeX pushed in tech forums, but tech publishers and
regulators specify the format for submissions, and it ain't TeX.
On 12/25/2024 1:24 PM, legg wrote:
On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 11:47:30 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 12/25/2024 7:10 AM, legg wrote:
That was the sort of Reader output that I had in mind.
I don't know what it "looks" like in other viewers. And,
apparently, many don't support searching for page labels;
they think of pages as being *numbered*.
I'll pay more attention to the features offered by my
pdf publishing utility, (pdf995) to see what results I
can get here.
Can't help you, there. I use FrameMaker (et al.) for
my DTP needs; they are reasonably well integrated so
I can tell one what I want *it* to tell the others...
If I can't wrestle it into shape, I may take you up on
your offer, just to get this out of my hair, after revisions.
Truly no problem. The download and sneakernet into my office
was the biggest "effort". Adjusting the page labels is:
- open thumbnails
- select a set of pages to be labeled
- open "Label Pages..." dialog
- select style (1,2,3; i,ii,ii; A,B,C; etc.)
- APPLY
I'd normally add or remove pages by printing partial portions,
then rejoining them.
In Acrobat, I just select the thumbnails for the pages to delete and then >>> hit DELETE. I will have to see how the labels alter if I cut a section
out of the middle. I would imagine the FIRST page in a section is the
most critical (as it likely contains the sequencing information for its
successors)
I should see how rotated pages fit in the mix (they shouldn't
be handled any differently -- but, "you never know")
[I frequently put a B-size "fold out" in the middle of a document
and often only the recto side is numbered]
That doesn't appear to be practical
if 'sections' carry un-numbered or oddly-paginated groups.
0 seems particularly problematic.
I would address '0' as "0"; in much the same way as "IV"
or "COVER"
How would an end-user print the copyright page, or dedication
page, if the select-page-to-print area of the gui offers
pages ' -425 ' ?
With the labeling facility, you can specify "" (empty/blank)
as the page label -- as I did for the cover and early front matter
in your example.
If your viewer/reader software can search for page labels (which
is what all *should* be able to do as labels go WAY back in the
specification's history -- for obvious reasons), you could exploit
that ability to quickly access particular pages ("INDEX", "TABLES",
etc.) in the absence of hyperlinks in the document (of course this
means abandoning the VISIBLE page number on that page)
I notice that the Foxit reader doesn't recognize the new labeling.
That's pretty popular.
Hmmmm. From <https://pdfa.org/pdf-ux-page-labels/> (near the very end):
------------8<--------------8<----------------8<------------
"In July 2024, the PDF Association conducted an informal survey of popular >desktop PDF viewers providing support for WYISIHYN navigation. Our assessment >was based on a single test of whether entering the Roman numeral iv resulted >in the page changing to PDF page 4.
"The shortlist of viewers in our survey that support WYISIHYN navigation:
Adobe Acrobat
Apple Preview
Apryse PDF Studio Viewer
Apryse Xodo PDF Studio
FireFox (Mozilla pdf.js)
Foxit
PDFextra
PDF Reader Pro (Mac)
PDF XChange"
------------8<--------------8<----------------8<------------
This appears to apply to a test document which contains a variety of
page labels (described in the referenced page).
<https://github.com/pdf-association/pdf-differences/blob/main/PageLabels-UX/PageLabelsTest.pdf>
The entire web page is worthwhile reading (IMHO). The anecdote provided
in the "Page labels in ISO publications" aside being typical of the effort
to USE such labeling capabilities.
Sadly, folks feel free to interpret standards any way they choose, >rationalizing that they "know" what their users want" -- even in the face
of evidence to the contrary (e.g., hundreds of years of prior art):
"In longer or more complex documents with distinct sections, it is
not uncommon to use Roman numerals for front matter page identifiers,
descriptive page labels for back matter such as annexes or appendices,
or even start a document with a page identifier other than 1. However,
if the author/publisher fails to align the visible page identifiers
on each page with the navigation data when users attempt to go to
page ix or 12 they may end up at entirely different locations!
Is that the 12th logical page, or the page with 12 in the footer,
or somewhere else?"
Obviously, the problem posed in your initial post.
Also a reason why many websites point users at the "free Adobe Reader" >instead of some other substandard free/not-free product. (Try viewing
it in Firefox; it works as expected, there)
[I suspect many of the "fillable tax forms" that are available from
gummit websites would also fail on such products <frown> ]
The resized and typod version boiled down to ~80meg.
Surprise, surprise - the PDF995 tool can be manipulated to give
sectional page counting that's recognized by Adobe and Foxit
readers.
Joining two volumes initially preserves page count of both.
This disappears when the enjoined volume is reprinted.
Solution - 'don't do that'.
I noticed this by accident - the second stitching exercise
used ~ 20-page sections to avoid repeated reprint of large
single-page-count increments.
https://ve3ute.ca/prairie_gold/sample_250113.zip
I could check the mail, have a snack, read a book chapter
any time a large file was reprinted for editing/sequencing.
Anyways, that's all over and I can forget all about it, as
with most software tools these days.
BeeMaid's lawyuhs are still twiddling thumbs, though author
and editor are thrilled. Reading the book, you can concieve
Saskatchewan co-op membership getting screwed regularly by
their Manitoban brothers over time. This may just be one more
kick in the can. The largest shippers always end up ruling
the roost and these days you can only join 'if there's a spot'
and you commit to non-part-time volumes.
At a certain scale, the differences between co-op and corporate
begin to blurr, but they could still be bought out tomorrow
by a wingnut corporation from poughkeepsie, if the members
voted to do so. So far they've maintained at least the semblance
of producer independence and mutual protection in a wild
marketplace and invreasingly hazardous environment for bees.
On 12/24/2024 4:43 PM, Glen Walpert wrote:
I am fairly certain that what you want cannot be done with a PDF, based
on reading many documents where this would have been beneficial, such
as the 3544 page Florida Building Code where the page labeled as
(RAS)109.1 is PDF page 2625, or the 1235 page Square-D Digest with page
22-1 on PDF page 968. Both of these documents are made tolerable by
links to major sections from the index. The Square-D Digest is
exceptional in providing hyperlinks to web documents with part specs,
drawings and CAD files for almost everything in the catalog.
PDFs deal with "pages" in three different contexts:
The file itself assumes the first page is '0' -- so, any (PS) *code*
that references a page begins counting from 0.
Of course, the code doesn't care what "human reference"
is visible on the page (which may actually be a COVER that has NO page number!), nor should it.
Humans like to think of pages as starting with 1. So,
absent any overriding information (see below), the N pages in a PDF will
be "numbered" 1 to N.
Because authors create documents with a variety of "page numbering
schemes", the PDF includes provisions for page LABELS. These can be
damn near ANYTHING. E.g., the first page could be "greg", the second
page "four", the third page "XX", the fourth "¾", etc. Typically, the scheme chosen has an implied ordering so the user can predict what the
next such label will be, given the current one.
The authoring software is typically responsible for creating
user-friendly "page labels" for the document, based on settings defined
by the *author* at the time the document is created.
It can also place these labels ON the pages in the document (as would be expected!). E.g., my page 17 might actually appear on the page as
"II-03" if I adopt a <chapter>-<page-in-chapter> presentation scheme
(and chose uppercase roman numerals as chapter numbers). Or, it could
be "Intro-3" if I chose to use chapter names followed by
page-within-chapter.
But, not all authoring tools are up to the task. And, not all *authors*
are aware of these issues or the means of addressing them.
And, of course, there is also a caveat for the range of possible
*readers* (viewers). So, when picking an authoring tool, it's important
to consider which features you may want/need AND the choice of
reader/viewer that you will RECOMMEND your users employ to read/view
your documents.
On 12/23/2024 3:08 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Have you looked at Libreoffice?
https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/how-do-i-paginate-completed-document/58798
That is what I did. The pages are numbered correctly inside LO and in
the printed result, and in the PDF export. However, the page counter
in the PDF viewer doesn't reflect numbering styles or renumbering.
What are you using to view the PDF? Firefox has an in-built PDF
viewer; Adobe has the Reader and Acrobat products; there are numerous "alternative" viewing tools, etc.
The format supports a fair number of capabilities that aren't
typically supported in the variety of "tools" available. For
example:
<https://clearmotionsystems.com/img/animations/compressor.pdf>
Should display a 3D model that you can manipulate WHILE it is
being animated.
Sorry, I have just noticed your post today.
On 2024-12-24 00:27, Don Y wrote:
On 12/23/2024 3:08 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
Have you looked at Libreoffice?That is what I did. The pages are numbered correctly inside LO and in the >>> printed result, and in the PDF export. However, the page counter in the PDF >>> viewer doesn't reflect numbering styles or renumbering.
https://ask.libreoffice.org/t/how-do-i-paginate-completed-document/58798 >>>
What are you using to view the PDF? Firefox has an in-built PDF
viewer; Adobe has the Reader and Acrobat products; there are numerous
"alternative" viewing tools, etc.
I am on Linux, so I don't have the adobe reader.
I repeat the test now: Evince, Atril, Okular, FoxitReader, firefox. All behave
the same, 5 pages, counting 1 to 5.
I have a virtual machine with Windows and Adobe. Let's try. [...] It took time
to try, but managed it, same result.
I hate adobe reader, it asked twice to make it the default handler for PDF. I said no when I installed it, and repeated "no" today. This is insulting.
The format supports a fair number of capabilities that aren't
typically supported in the variety of "tools" available. For
example:
<https://clearmotionsystems.com/img/animations/compressor.pdf>
Should display a 3D model that you can manipulate WHILE it is
being animated.
Displays an empty box or frame in a document. None of the Linux PDF readers handle Javascript, probably intentionally, it is a security problem.
Good info, thanks. Took me a while to check it out, but I found that
pdftk can add or revise PageLabels. Using the sample file at:
<https://github.com/pdf-association/pdf-differences/blob/main/PageLabels- UX/PageLabelsTest.pdf>
you can extract the file data with:
dump_data
Reads a single input PDF file and reports its metadata, book-
marks (a/k/a outlines), page metrics (media, rotation and
labels), data embedded by STAMPtk (see STAMPtk's embed
option) and other data to the given output filename or (if no
output is given) to stdout. Non-ASCII characters are encoded
as XML numerical entities. Does not create a new PDF.
pdftk PageLabelsTest.pdf dump_data > orig.info
edit or add page labels in orig.info, save as revised.info,
pdftk PageLabelsTest.pdf update_info revised.info output
RevisedLabelTest.pdf
produced a file showing my revisions.
Using that .info file as an example I was able to add page labels to a
file which contained none, and the labels display correctly with Ubuntu Document Viewer.
Pdftk is also available for Windows. I use it mostly to assemble
documents from CAD system individual page PDF files but it has a lot of
other functionality.
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