• Oscilloscope delivers 25 GHz bandwith on 4 channels

    From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 5 10:31:46 2024
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Dec 5 12:27:04 2024
    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of bandwidth on
    four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope
    (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the
    signal while recording pre-trigger data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!



    Pretty cool gizmo!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Thu Dec 5 06:36:14 2024
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 12:27:04 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope
    9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of bandwidth on
    four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope
    (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time acquisition with sampling
    oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the
    signal while recording pre-trigger data, with the high time and amplitude
    resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!



    Pretty cool gizmo!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Tek did a random sampling plugin for their 7000 series scopes, the
    7T11 I think. Sounds like the same idea.

    I want one, but the price is extreme. There's probably not much
    inside.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Dec 6 17:59:30 2024
    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Dec 6 19:47:09 2024
    On 12/5/24 15:36, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 12:27:04 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope
    9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of bandwidth on
    four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope
    (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time acquisition with sampling
    oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the
    signal while recording pre-trigger data, with the high time and amplitude >>> resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!



    Pretty cool gizmo!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Tek did a random sampling plugin for their 7000 series scopes, the
    7T11 I think. Sounds like the same idea.

    I want one, but the price is extreme. There's probably not much
    inside.


    The 7T11 did a sawtooth scan to sweep a 7S11 sampling unit (with
    sampler plug-in) across some time interval. With an S-6 plug-in,
    it would do 30ps risetime, which was fast enough for my needs.
    This was 1970's equipment, pretty good for the time.

    I was very happy when I realized it was possible to drive the
    7T11 with a VME DAC and measure the output of the 7S11 with an ADC
    in the same crate. That gave me the ability to get traces with
    an effective 10GHz bandwidth directly into my PC, and to average
    the noise way down, if so desired. No more polaroid pictures of
    a fuzzy trace on the scope screen. Real data I could process to
    my heart's content, and with much better resolution too.

    I loved that piece of equipment. Tektronix were the best in that
    era.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Fri Dec 6 21:03:18 2024
    On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 19:47:09 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/5/24 15:36, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 5 Dec 2024 12:27:04 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope
    9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of bandwidth on
    four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope
    (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time acquisition with sampling
    oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the >>>> signal while recording pre-trigger data, with the high time and amplitude >>>> resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques
    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!



    Pretty cool gizmo!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Tek did a random sampling plugin for their 7000 series scopes, the
    7T11 I think. Sounds like the same idea.

    I want one, but the price is extreme. There's probably not much
    inside.


    The 7T11 did a sawtooth scan to sweep a 7S11 sampling unit (with
    sampler plug-in) across some time interval. With an S-6 plug-in,
    it would do 30ps risetime, which was fast enough for my needs.
    This was 1970's equipment, pretty good for the time.

    I was very happy when I realized it was possible to drive the
    7T11 with a VME DAC and measure the output of the 7S11 with an ADC
    in the same crate. That gave me the ability to get traces with
    an effective 10GHz bandwidth directly into my PC, and to average
    the noise way down, if so desired. No more polaroid pictures of
    a fuzzy trace on the scope screen. Real data I could process to
    my heart's content, and with much better resolution too.

    I loved that piece of equipment. Tektronix were the best in that
    era.

    Jeroen Belleman

    At a trade show, in the Tek booth, they had a little box that hosted
    two SD series heads and interfaced to a PC. They never offered that
    for sale.

    It wouldn't be hard to do that now. There are lots of S and SD and 7S
    heads on ebay.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to llc@fonz.dk on Sat Dec 7 06:00:37 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
    bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Dec 8 12:11:47 2024
    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
    bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Kragelund on Sun Dec 8 13:08:20 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100) it happened Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote in <vj3utj$3oine$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt >> <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels


    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz
    of
    bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording
    pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope. >>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques


    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    Well, any complex wafeform can be shown to consist of sinusoidal harmonic components.
    I have used FFT and than removing a spectral line and then a reverse FFT for video processing...
    not in real time though... All depends on bandwith.
    I mean if you have a 100 GHz signal and want the _waveform_ of that signal you will need to be able to see higher harmonics than that
    up to 1000 GHz for the tenths harmonics.

    But if it is a repeating signal you could mix down and get the amplitude for each harmonics...
    and then reconstruct the waveform from that

    So the 100 GHz wide bandwidth scope may get some waveform for a 10 GHz signal...
    But you can run it continuous and record it, no trigger needed..., just look at the recording.
    linear:
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/ADF4350_via_mixer_2.4GHz.gif
    log:
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/ADF4350_via_mixer_2.4GHz_dBc_R820_tuner_fractional_all.gif

    But then I do not try fission so for those laser pulse guys who knows,

    I'v read you earthlings say it is all relative

    Nothing new since early radio.. just faster tranistors and stuff...

    For communicatione the spectra used are usually quite narrow, no harmonic views needed.
    There are many ways to get a spectrum...
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/fluorescent_light_spectrum_img_0874.jpg
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/rainbow_IMG_4440.JPG

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to klauskvik@hotmail.com on Sun Dec 8 07:53:35 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt >> <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
    bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope. >>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
    into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
    digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
    mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
    for those megabuck scopes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Dec 8 18:26:07 2024
    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt >>> <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
    bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope. >>>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
    into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
    digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
    mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
    for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
    a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Sun Dec 8 10:47:17 2024
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
    <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt >>>> <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
    bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope. >>>>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
    into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
    digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
    mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
    for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
    a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I
    haven't had much time to play with it.

    Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
    guess it could become a product.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1

    It's one of those tiles.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Dec 8 20:41:51 2024
    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
    <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
    <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the
    PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of >>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended
    Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the
    scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger >>>>>>> data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope. >>>>>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and
    downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
    into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
    digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
    mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
    for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
    a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I
    haven't had much time to play with it.

    Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
    guess it could become a product.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1

    It's one of those tiles.



    Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture
    and salinity vs depth for an ag customer. It’s a 150-ps-class device,
    which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re
    getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
    including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR proper.

    It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design,
    the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s perfectly okay in this situation.

    Fun gizmo.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jrwalliker@gmail.com on Mon Dec 9 06:40:34 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 8 Dec 2024 21:53:47 +0000) it happened John R Walliker <jrwalliker@gmail.com> wrote in <vj54hb$3u8r5$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 08/12/2024 13:08, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100) it happened Klaus Vestergaard
    Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote in <vj3utj$3oine$1@dont-email.me>: >>
    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt >>>> <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels



    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25
    GHz
    of
    bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time
    acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording
    pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope. >>>>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques



    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    Well, any complex wafeform can be shown to consist of sinusoidal harmonic components.
    I have used FFT and than removing a spectral line and then a reverse FFT for video processing...
    not in real time though... All depends on bandwith.
    I mean if you have a 100 GHz signal and want the _waveform_ of that signal you will need to be able to see higher harmonics
    than that
    up to 1000 GHz for the tenths harmonics.

    But if it is a repeating signal you could mix down and get the amplitude for each harmonics...
    and then reconstruct the waveform from that

    Yes, but you do also need to keep track of phase in order to
    reconstruct the waveform.

    Good point, we need experiment?
    If you can sell it for 2M$ maybe worth a try...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Mon Dec 9 13:37:54 2024
    On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
    <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
    <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the
    PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of >>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended
    Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time >>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the >>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger >>>>>>>> data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope. >>>>>>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and
    downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right? >>>>
    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
    into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
    digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
    mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
    for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
    a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I
    haven't had much time to play with it.

    Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
    guess it could become a product.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1

    It's one of those tiles.



    Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture
    and salinity vs depth for an ag customer. It’s a 150-ps-class device, which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
    including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR proper.

    It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design, the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s perfectly okay in this situation.

    Fun gizmo.


    At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a
    product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor
    winding shorts.

    Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force
    approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
    product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done
    in any other way.

    I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and
    made it for 10 USD instead :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund on Mon Dec 9 23:14:30 2024
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
    <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
    <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the
    PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of >>>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended
    Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time >>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the >>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger >>>>>>>>> data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and
    downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer?
    From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right? >>>>>
    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal
    into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
    digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
    mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small
    for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
    a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I
    haven't had much time to play with it.

    Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
    guess it could become a product.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1

    It's one of those tiles.



    Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture
    and salinity vs depth for an ag customer. It’s a 150-ps-class device,
    which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re
    getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
    including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR >> proper.

    It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design, >> the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s
    perfectly okay in this situation.

    Fun gizmo.


    At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a
    product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor
    winding shorts.

    Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
    product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done
    in any other way.

    I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and
    made it for 10 USD instead :-)


    Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer
    run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of
    the parts were EOL.

    Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Tue Dec 10 01:27:13 2024
    On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
    <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
    <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the >>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of >>>>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended >>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time >>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the >>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger >>>>>>>>>> data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and >>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer? >>>>>>>> From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right? >>>>>>
    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal >>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
    digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
    mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small >>>>>> for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
    a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I
    haven't had much time to play with it.

    Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
    guess it could become a product.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1

    It's one of those tiles.



    Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture >>> and salinity vs depth for an ag customer. It’s a 150-ps-class device, >>> which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re
    getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
    including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR >>> proper.

    It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design, >>> the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s >>> perfectly okay in this situation.

    Fun gizmo.


    At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a
    product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor
    winding shorts.

    Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force
    approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
    product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done
    in any other way.

    I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and
    made it for 10 USD instead :-)


    Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of
    the parts were EOL.

    Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)

    So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the
    IP, and could use it for other projects?

    I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW
    solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either
    telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free,
    reducing my hours billed, or letting them get a percentage of the
    profits of my sales.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund on Tue Dec 10 01:16:46 2024
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
    <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
    <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the >>>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of >>>>>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended >>>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time >>>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the >>>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and >>>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer? >>>>>>>>> From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right? >>>>>>>
    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal >>>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and
    digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
    mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small >>>>>>> for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as
    a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580. >>>>>>
    Jeroen Belleman

    I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I >>>>> haven't had much time to play with it.

    Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I
    guess it could become a product.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1

    It's one of those tiles.



    Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture >>>> and salinity vs depth for an ag customer. It’s a 150-ps-class device, >>>> which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re >>>> getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
    including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR >>>> proper.

    It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design,
    the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s >>>> perfectly okay in this situation.

    Fun gizmo.


    At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a
    product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor
    winding shorts.

    Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force
    approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
    product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done
    in any other way.

    I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and
    made it for 10 USD instead :-)


    Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer >> run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of
    the parts were EOL.

    Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)

    So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the
    IP, and could use it for other projects?

    I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW
    solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free, reducing my hours billed, or letting them get a percentage of the
    profits of my sales.


    The conversation is still underway, but I expect that we’ll wind up with a win-win deal, as we have previously.

    We position ourselves as a design consultancy with a lot of existing “background IP”, including full product designs, design studies, and general know-how.

    In the present case, we’re looking at filing a patent for a new measurement principle, and charging the customer a combined patent/know-how royalty.
    Since the total cost is a good bit less than the BOM savings alone, the negotiations are pretty amicable. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Tue Dec 10 09:41:55 2024
    On 10-12-2024 02:16, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund >>>>>>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
    <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels >>>>>>>>>>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the >>>>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of >>>>>>>>>>>> bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended >>>>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time >>>>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the >>>>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and >>>>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer? >>>>>>>>>> From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal >>>>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and >>>>>>>> digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together
    mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small >>>>>>>> for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as >>>>>>> a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580. >>>>>>>
    Jeroen Belleman

    I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I >>>>>> haven't had much time to play with it.

    Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I >>>>>> guess it could become a product.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1

    It's one of those tiles.



    Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture >>>>> and salinity vs depth for an ag customer. It’s a 150-ps-class device, >>>>> which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re >>>>> getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB,
    including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR
    proper.

    It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design,
    the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s >>>>> perfectly okay in this situation.

    Fun gizmo.


    At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a
    product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor
    winding shorts.

    Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force
    approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
    product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done >>>> in any other way.

    I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and >>>> made it for 10 USD instead :-)


    Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer >>> run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of >>> the parts were EOL.

    Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)

    So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the
    IP, and could use it for other projects?

    I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW
    solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either
    telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free,
    reducing my hours billed, or letting them get a percentage of the
    profits of my sales.


    The conversation is still underway, but I expect that we’ll wind up with a win-win deal, as we have previously.

    We position ourselves as a design consultancy with a lot of existing “background IP”, including full product designs, design studies, and general know-how.

    In the present case, we’re looking at filing a patent for a new measurement principle, and charging the customer a combined patent/know-how royalty. Since the total cost is a good bit less than the BOM savings alone, the negotiations are pretty amicable. ;)

    Sounds like an idea situation. Important to take that upfront

    I have spend a lot of time on cost savings over the years, so when I
    take a consulting assignment, I often try to solve the task and reduce
    cost significantly at the same time. Ideally with a ROI of a year. That
    is a compelling selling argument against the customer.

    Cheers

    Klaus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund on Tue Dec 10 13:12:09 2024
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 10-12-2024 02:16, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund >>>>>>>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
    <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the >>>>>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
    bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended >>>>>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time >>>>>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and >>>>>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer? >>>>>>>>>>> From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal >>>>>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and >>>>>>>>> digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together >>>>>>>>> mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small >>>>>>>>> for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as >>>>>>>> a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580. >>>>>>>>
    Jeroen Belleman

    I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I >>>>>>> haven't had much time to play with it.

    Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I >>>>>>> guess it could become a product.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1

    It's one of those tiles.



    Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture
    and salinity vs depth for an ag customer. It’s a 150-ps-class device, >>>>>> which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re >>>>>> getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB, >>>>>> including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR
    proper.

    It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design,
    the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s
    perfectly okay in this situation.

    Fun gizmo.


    At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a >>>>> product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor >>>>> winding shorts.

    Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force >>>>> approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per
    product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done >>>>> in any other way.

    I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and >>>>> made it for 10 USD instead :-)


    Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer >>>> run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of >>>> the parts were EOL.

    Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)

    So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the
    IP, and could use it for other projects?

    I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW
    solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either
    telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free,
    reducing my hours billed, or letting them get a percentage of the
    profits of my sales.


    The conversation is still underway, but I expect that we’ll wind up with a >> win-win deal, as we have previously.

    We position ourselves as a design consultancy with a lot of existing
    “background IP”, including full product designs, design studies, and
    general know-how.

    In the present case, we’re looking at filing a patent for a new measurement
    principle, and charging the customer a combined patent/know-how royalty.
    Since the total cost is a good bit less than the BOM savings alone, the
    negotiations are pretty amicable. ;)

    Sounds like an idea situation. Important to take that upfront

    I have spend a lot of time on cost savings over the years, so when I
    take a consulting assignment, I often try to solve the task and reduce
    cost significantly at the same time. Ideally with a ROI of a year. That
    is a compelling selling argument against the customer.

    Cheers

    Klaus


    Yup. It’s worth pitching a royalty,because the value you bring isn’t just a one-time payoff. That’s true whether you’re customizing an existing design or doing something new. You have a lot of background IP, including
    previous designs and

    The most common objection is, “We’re paying you for the work—why should we
    pay twice?” The answer is that the royalty (5% of revenue or thereabouts)
    is for the background IP, and the hourly work is for customizing it to
    their application.

    Try saying that you want to succeed together with them—that gets the point across pretty well, we find.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Tue Dec 10 13:17:37 2024
    Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 10-12-2024 02:16, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 10-12-2024 00:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 08-12-2024 21:41, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 18:26:07 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 12/8/24 16:53, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:11:47 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund >>>>>>>>>> <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 07-12-2024 07:00, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 6 Dec 2024 17:59:30 +0100) it happened Lasse Langwadt
    <llc@fonz.dk> wrote in <vivahi$2etnj$2@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>>>>
    On 12/5/24 11:31, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Oscilloscope Delivers 25-GHz Bandwidth on Four Channels >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/test-measurement/oscilloscopes/article/55247306/electronic-design-pico-technology-oscilloscope-delivers-25-ghz-bandwidth-on-four-channels
    Pico Technology expanded its PicoScope 9400 Series with the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PicoScope 9404A-25, a high-performance oscilloscope with 25 GHz of
    bandwidth on four channels. The company's Sampler-Extended >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Real-Time Oscilloscope (SXRTO) technology integrates real-time >>>>>>>>>>>>>> acquisition with sampling oscilloscope capabilities. Thus, the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> scope can trigger directly on the signal while recording pre-trigger
    data, with the high time and amplitude resolution of a sampling scope.

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/techxchange/article/55238271/advanced-oscilloscope-techniques

    https://www.picotech.com/products/oscilloscope/picoscope-9000-series/picoscope-9400a-series-sampler-extended-real-time-oscilloscope

    Only 25,645 ?

    For the real audiophiles!!


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXYje2B04xE

    110GHz bandwidth, 256GS/s four channels, only ~$2M


    https://www.keysight.com/us/en/product/UXR1102A/infiniium-uxr-series-oscilloscope-110-ghz-2-channels.html

    When I want to see 10 GHz signals I use an old 5 dollar LNB and >>>>>>>>>>>> downconvert to about 1 GHz...
    that into a 35 dollar RTL_SDR stick.
    I know it is not the same, but 100 GHz downconvert should not cost hat much more
    At higher frequencies lasers into non linear crystals as mixer? >>>>>>>>>>>> From the 1.999 M$ left buy a nice house?

    Very nice idea, but that will work only for sinusoidal signals, right?

    There were some superhet oscilloscopes that split the input signal >>>>>>>>>> into bands with RF techniques, namely downconverting bands and >>>>>>>>>> digitizing them, then somehow putting that mess back together >>>>>>>>>> mathematically. Of course, one was a LeCroy.

    Integrated shockline samplers killed that idea.

    But 100 GHz electrical signals barely exist, so the market is small >>>>>>>>>> for those megabuck scopes.


    I should be possible to abuse a cheap fast latched comparator as >>>>>>>>> a sampler with ~10GHz bandwidth or so. Something like an ADCMP580. >>>>>>>>>
    Jeroen Belleman

    I've done that and have a PCB, TDR actually. It seemed to work but I >>>>>>>> haven't had much time to play with it.

    Does anyone want to take over and see how well it actually works? I >>>>>>>> guess it could become a product.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y88pcdjfd0qovxmpfizwu/Z368.JPG?rlkey=fu4bng7i34yjbol7s1npapp8x&raw=1

    It's one of those tiles.



    Simon and I are just finishing up a TDR gizmo for measuring soil moisture
    and salinity vs depth for an ag customer. It’s a 150-ps-class device,
    which is much better than good enough for the application, and we’re >>>>>>> getting the first 20 fully-stuffed boards for $23 each from JLCPCB, >>>>>>> including the data converters, MCU, voltage regulators, as well as the TDR
    proper.

    It uses a two-diode sampler, which avoids the major pain of sampler design,
    the need to match diodes. Of course it has horrible kickout, but that’s
    perfectly okay in this situation.

    Fun gizmo.


    At an earlier employment a proposal was made to include a TDR into a >>>>>> product, to be able to preventive warn of cable faults or even motor >>>>>> winding shorts.

    Then a RF engineer, one that I never liked much, took the brute force >>>>>> approach using a GHz sampling ADC, costing hundreds of dollars per >>>>>> product (would effectively kill the idea). He said it could not be done >>>>>> in any other way.

    I then made a diode sampler, with a sliding picosecond STM32 timer, and >>>>>> made it for 10 USD instead :-)


    Our gizmo is replacing something like that—a 250 MSa transient digitizer
    run in equivalent time mode. Its BOM cost was around $400, plus a lot of >>>>> the parts were EOL.

    Savings like that sure make the licensing conversation easier. ;)

    So you were able to make a deal with the client that you part owned the >>>> IP, and could use it for other projects?

    I am in a similar situation right now, working on a dedicated HW
    solution that I would like to begin to sell afterwards. Guessing either >>>> telling the client they get later improvements to the design for free, >>>> reducing my hours billed, or letting them get a percentage of the
    profits of my sales.


    The conversation is still underway, but I expect that we’ll wind up with a
    win-win deal, as we have previously.

    We position ourselves as a design consultancy with a lot of existing
    “background IP”, including full product designs, design studies, and >>> general know-how.

    In the present case, we’re looking at filing a patent for a new measurement
    principle, and charging the customer a combined patent/know-how royalty. >>> Since the total cost is a good bit less than the BOM savings alone, the
    negotiations are pretty amicable. ;)

    Sounds like an idea situation. Important to take that upfront

    I have spend a lot of time on cost savings over the years, so when I
    take a consulting assignment, I often try to solve the task and reduce
    cost significantly at the same time. Ideally with a ROI of a year. That
    is a compelling selling argument against the customer.

    Cheers

    Klaus


    Yup. It’s worth pitching a royalty,because the value you bring isn’t just a
    one-time payoff. That’s true whether you’re customizing an existing design
    or doing something new. You have a lot of background IP, including
    previous designs,
    design approaches, circuit topologies, and general expertise, such as how
    to make an amplifier fast and accurate while avoiding oscillation.


    The most common objection is, “We’re paying you for the work—why should we
    pay twice?” The answer is that the royalty (5% of revenue or thereabouts) is for the background IP, and the hourly work is for customizing it to
    their application.

    Try saying that you want to succeed together with them—that gets the point across pretty well, we find.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    Oh

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)