https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
"john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message news:iv1dkj1d8qa5cvm4r5b7mbehcot0lnd057@4ax.com...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from- electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189240V AC never did me any harm.
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
I first remember it when I moved a lamp in the loft (attic) which my
father had left there with the base off with live contacts exposed.
It was unpleasant but not harmful. I only just manage to avoid putting
my foot through the ceiling.
Later I was moving out of a flat (apartment) and we couldn't find the
keys to turn the power off.
The removal guys refused to disconnect the cooker (stove) live so I did
it for them.
In article <iv1dkj1d8qa5cvm4r5b7mbehcot0lnd057@4ax.com>, JL@gct.com
says...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
It is probably all the safety standards in this country.
When I first started in a plant about 40 years ago there was very little safety precautions. In the last 20 or so years they got very strict following new govenment regulations.
The electrical code for homes has gotten onthe safety bandwagon. All
the GFCI and arc flash circuits probably help.
Actually, the regulations for building electronic devices are quite
strict. At the same time, we have cars passing each other with a
differential speed of 200km/h within a couple of feet. Kills a lot of
people, but the regulations are never changed (hard to modify existing infrastructure)
On 2024-11-27 03:53, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-
electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Maybe you have more fires.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
On 28-11-2024 00:19, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-27 03:53, john larkin wrote:And in general less efficiency since I2R losses are higher in the US ;-)
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-
electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Maybe you have more fires.
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 00:57:09 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 28-11-2024 00:19, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-27 03:53, john larkin wrote:And in general less efficiency since I2R losses are higher in the US ;-)
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from- >>>> electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Maybe you have more fires.
Most losses are in distribution, and that's kilovolts. Of course, the
USA is BIG.
Serious appliances, like air conditioners and clothes dryers, run line-to-line, 240 volts. Modern TVs and LED lighting don't need much
power.
Our wiring doesn't usually get warm.
We heat and cook with gas, and we don't have a/c or a pool or any
silliness like that, so we don't use a lot of power.
On 2024-11-28 01:51, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 00:57:09 +0100, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
On 28-11-2024 00:19, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-27 03:53, john larkin wrote:And in general less efficiency since I2R losses are higher in the US ;-)
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from- >>>>> electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189 >>>>>
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then, >>>>> no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Maybe you have more fires.
Most losses are in distribution, and that's kilovolts. Of course, the
USA is BIG.
Serious appliances, like air conditioners and clothes dryers, run
line-to-line, 240 volts. Modern TVs and LED lighting don't need much
power.
Our wiring doesn't usually get warm.
We heat and cook with gas, and we don't have a/c or a pool or any
silliness like that, so we don't use a lot of power.
But a tea kettle or a bread toaster or the microwave plug into 120,
drawing quite some amps. If those connections get a bit rusty, they also
get hot. And they need thick wires; thick copper is not that easy to
wrap around connectors.
But a tea kettle or a bread toaster or the microwave plug into 120, drawing quite some amps.
If those connections get a bit rusty, they also get hot. And
they need thick wires; thick copper is not that easy to wrap around connectors.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 22:14:56 -0500, Edward Rawde wrote:
"john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in messageelectrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
news:iv1dkj1d8qa5cvm4r5b7mbehcot0lnd057@4ax.com...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-
240V AC never did me any harm.
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
I first remember it when I moved a lamp in the loft (attic) which my
father had left there with the base off with live contacts exposed.
It was unpleasant but not harmful. I only just manage to avoid putting
my foot through the ceiling.
Later I was moving out of a flat (apartment) and we couldn't find the
keys to turn the power off.
The removal guys refused to disconnect the cooker (stove) live so I did
it for them.
Same here. Having dry skin helps a lot. There are still two real dangers though: wetness in whatever form and accidentally poking your finger into
a socket where there's a live strand sticking out which punctures your
skin. That's when you can *really* get a belt!
Something I was taught, which has beceome an ingrained habit, is to
touch anything for the first time with the back of your hand or fingers;
if it is 'live' you will jump away.
Working in a radio factory brought home the need to apply that rule to everyday objects, as it wasn't unknown for some joker to wire up a door handle or a metal swivel chair to a high voltage supply. The other
useful habit was to freeze if anyone threw anything towards you and
shouted "Catch!" - the object that bounced off you was just as likely to
be a charged high voltage electrolytic capacitor.
On 27/11/2024 17:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:[...]
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 22:14:56 -0500, Edward Rawde wrote:
"john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in messageelectrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
news:iv1dkj1d8qa5cvm4r5b7mbehcot0lnd057@4ax.com...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-
240V AC never did me any harm.
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
I first remember it when I moved a lamp in the loft (attic) which my
father had left there with the base off with live contacts exposed.
It was unpleasant but not harmful. I only just manage to avoid putting
my foot through the ceiling.
Later I was moving out of a flat (apartment) and we couldn't find the
keys to turn the power off.
The removal guys refused to disconnect the cooker (stove) live so I did
it for them.
Same here. Having dry skin helps a lot. There are still two real dangers though: wetness in whatever form and accidentally poking your finger into
a socket where there's a live strand sticking out which punctures your skin. That's when you can *really* get a belt!
It can also get nasty when muscle goes into spasm and contracts a hand
or even just a finger round the conductor, so you can't get free easily.
Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:
On 27/11/2024 17:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:[...]
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 22:14:56 -0500, Edward Rawde wrote:
"john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message
news:iv1dkj1d8qa5cvm4r5b7mbehcot0lnd057@4ax.com...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from- >>> electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189240V AC never did me any harm.
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then, >>>>> no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
I first remember it when I moved a lamp in the loft (attic) which my
father had left there with the base off with live contacts exposed.
It was unpleasant but not harmful. I only just manage to avoid putting >>>> my foot through the ceiling.
Later I was moving out of a flat (apartment) and we couldn't find the
keys to turn the power off.
The removal guys refused to disconnect the cooker (stove) live so I did >>>> it for them.
Same here. Having dry skin helps a lot. There are still two real dangers >>> though: wetness in whatever form and accidentally poking your finger into >>> a socket where there's a live strand sticking out which punctures your
skin. That's when you can *really* get a belt!
It can also get nasty when muscle goes into spasm and contracts a hand
or even just a finger round the conductor, so you can't get free easily.
Something I was taught, which has beceome an ingrained habit, is to
touch anything for the first time with the back of your hand or fingers;
if it is 'live' you will jump away.
[I worked on some systems where you had bus bars running floor to
head level. Remove belt buckle and don't wear "riveted" jeans,
cuff links, wire-rim eyeglasses, etc. Of course, it would be safer
just to power the beasts off when working on them but you can waste
a lot of time powering them up and down!]
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a previous graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you
can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't smell good. He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected him.
On 11/27/2024 6:33 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
But a tea kettle or a bread toaster or the microwave plug into 120,
drawing quite some amps.
Many electric tea kettles have the element IN the kettle. So, there is
an EASY "mate/unmate" connection between the kettle and its base (a set
of concentric rings). A small one (~1 liter) typically has a 1500W rating.
A "2 slice" toaster (you can find them in 4 slice models as well) is typically 1000W.
Microwave ovens are 600-1000W.
Toaster ovens are 1200 to 1800W.
(Belgian) Waffle iron, pizzelle iron, et ilk are in the 700-1800W range.
[Keep in mind that US homes tend to have a pair of 20A (2400W) "small appliance" circuits to address countertop loads in the kitchen.]
Most other "pluggable" small appliances are in the 200-600W range
(hand/stand mixers, blenders, etc.)Â All kitchen pluggable appliances
tend to be sold with short power cords (18-24 inches). As such, are
plugged and unplugged typically with each use.
[This leads to wear and tear on the plug and receptacle, both of
which lead to increased losses IN that connection, over time.]
Hair dryers are nominally 1000W.
All of these are often cheap, "tinny" products -- not built very robust
(save for "better quality" microwaves and toaster ovens) -- because they
CAN be built "cheaply" (cost&quality) and consumers tend not to want to
spend much on them.
If those connections get a bit rusty, they also get hot. And they need
thick wires; thick copper is not that easy to wrap around connectors.
A 20A branch circuit (e.g., countertop services) is fed by 12AWG conductors (hot, neutral and earth). Additionally, use of receptacles RATED for 20A loads tends to lead to improves quality of that receptacle.
OTOH, many are wired (by homeowners!) with "back stab" connections where
the ends of the individual conductors are stripped of insulation and then then "poked" into holes in the back of the fixture where a spring-loaded mechanism grips them. This is typically not as robust as "completely"
(270 degree) wrapping a conductor around a screw that causes both sides
of the wrapped conductor to be in contact with the screw/terminal.
Additionally, many folks "daisy chain" the inbound "feed" THROUGH the
fixture to the outbound (i.e., two separate connections for each conductor
on the fixture). As the fixture (receptacle) is "exercised" by the insertion and removal of plugs, small motions cause the stiff wires to loosen. If this happens at an upstream fixture, then that connection
may be passing most of the current drawn on that branch circuit
(instead of JUST the current used in that fixture).
[A better wiring technique is to connect inbound and outbound conductors under a wire nut (sized for the number and size of conductors) along with
a "pigtail" to feed the fixture. In this way, the downstream loads
are firmly connected to the "feed" and only the current flowing through
the fixture (via the pigtail) is susceptible to loosening AT the fixture. But, this is more labor intensive.]
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a previous
graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you
can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't smell good. He
was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected
him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a previous
graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you
can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't smell good. He
was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected
him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug at both ends. It means your home-made disco console can use a readily obtainable mains socket for power input and it doesn't matter which way round you unwind the cable. Another advantage
is that you can unplug the console end and use it to fend off violent
drunks.
I don't understand why they're not used more often.
All of these are often cheap, "tinny" products -- not built very robust
(save for "better quality" microwaves and toaster ovens) -- because they
CAN be built "cheaply" (cost&quality) and consumers tend not to want to
spend much on them.
I forgot about room heaters. Here most of them are 2KW each, maybe switchable to 1KW.
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a
previous graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you can't let go or move and burning human flesh
doesn't smell good. He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug at both ends. It means your home-made disco console can use a readily obtainable mains socket for power
input and it doesn't matter which way round you unwind the cable. Another advantage is that you can unplug the console end and
use it to fend off violent drunks.
I don't understand why they're not used more often.
--
Cheers
Clive
Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a previous
graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you
can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't smell good. He
was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected
him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug at both ends. It means your home-made disco
console can use a readily obtainable mains socket for power input and it
doesn't matter which way round you unwind the cable. Another advantage
is that you can unplug the console end and use it to fend off violent
drunks.
I don't understand why they're not used more often.
I presume it is named after what someone says upon seeing it for the
first time? ...or is it the person you are most likely to go and meet
after using one?
On 2024-11-28 12:56, Don Y wrote:
[I worked on some systems where you had bus bars running floor to
head level. Remove belt buckle and don't wear "riveted" jeans,
cuff links, wire-rim eyeglasses, etc. Of course, it would be safer
just to power the beasts off when working on them but you can waste
a lot of time powering them up and down!]
Telephone exchanges had such bars, powered with 48 volts and huge lead
acid batteries connected to them. You could not unpower them, that would >leave thousands of clients with no service.
A chap of our company was working around there, on a ladder. The "false >floor" had one or two tiles removed for accessing the cables beneath. He >fell, and he of course tried to grab something to stop the fall. A
spanner was on his hand, and of course, it stuck between two copper bars.
It melted.
The entire island (Mallorca?) lost mobile phone service for an hour or two.
He was taken to hospital, unharmed but in shock. Maybe he had some small >burning from the hot metal, I don't remember.
There was an investigation, but I never knew about the results.
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a previous
graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you
can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't smell good. He
was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected
him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
On the other hand, you have USB chargers and other power supplies from
China with poor to some having little barrier insulation. That being
said, I have never hear about a fatality from that risk pool.
A "2 slice" toaster (you can find them in 4 slice models as well) is >typically 1000W.
Microwave ovens are 600-1000W.
Toaster ovens are 1200 to 1800W.
(Belgian) Waffle iron, pizzelle iron, et ilk are in the 700-1800W range.
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a
previous graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you can't let go or move and burning human flesh
doesn't smell good. He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug on each end. In this case plugged into a 4 way extension block under a rack full of electronics in a top
physics lab!
So named because it gets you closer to God.
Google seems singularly unhelpful on this one...
--
Martin Brown
At $WORK, the more common thing was to shed all jewelry as a wedding band >across a 100A supply will turn neatly cauterize the severed finger!
Of course, spouses tend to have raised eyebrows when you return home
without your wedding band in its rightful place (or, worse: with a >flesh-colored bandage wrapped around it!)
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a previous
graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you
can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't smell good. He was
probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
On 27-11-2024 16:11, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <iv1dkj1d8qa5cvm4r5b7mbehcot0lnd057@4ax.com>, JL@gct.com
says...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
It is probably all the safety standards in this country.
When I first started in a plant about 40 years ago there was very little
safety precautions. In the last 20 or so years they got very strict
following new govenment regulations.
The electrical code for homes has gotten onthe safety bandwagon. All
the GFCI and arc flash circuits probably help.
On the other hand, you have USB chargers and other power supplies from
China with poor to some having little barrier insulation. That being
said, I have never hear about a fatality from that risk pool.
Actually, the regulations for building electronic devices are quite
strict. At the same time, we have cars passing each other with a
differential speed of 200km/h within a couple of feet. Kills a lot of
people, but the regulations are never changed (hard to modify existing infrastructure)
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> writes:
At $WORK, the more common thing was to shed all jewelry as a wedding band
across a 100A supply will turn neatly cauterize the severed finger!
Of course, spouses tend to have raised eyebrows when you return home
without your wedding band in its rightful place (or, worse: with a
flesh-colored bandage wrapped around it!)
A mere 100A?
A telco Central Office battery plant will supply
thousands through a short. See the screwdriver turn orange,
All tools were taped up in case they were dropped across
the terminals. I recall when TI first made plastic LED
watches. Power craft guys LOVED them because with plastic bands,
they were safe to wear.
I have a similar story, from a colleague who had worked at one of the
big accelerators in the US Argonne National Lab in the 1960s. He worked
in the powerhouse that provided 20,000 amps at 10 volts DC to the
accelerator field coils (which were water-cooled copper then), delivered
over a par of large copper bus-bars side by side. One day,
he happened to drop a big steel wrench across the buss bars. The wrench evaporated with a bang, and the power system carried on. Startled but
unhurt, he called the accelerator control room and asked - they looked
and saw no indication of that momentary short.
.<https://www.anl.gov/>
People have been known to ask for them in stores here because they don't
want to take their christmas lights down and put them up again so that a
plug instead of a socket is next to the power outlet. The usual response is that yes one could be made but not legally so no.
Chainable light strings are common in North America so there is usually a socket on the other end to allow connection of another string of lights. I don't remember seeing that in Europe.
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:via7ui$kcu0$1@dont-email.me...
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a
previous graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you can't let go or move and burning human flesh
doesn't smell good. He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug on each end. In this case plugged into a 4 way extension block under a rack full of electronics in a top
physics lab!
So named because it gets you closer to God.
Google seems singularly unhelpful on this one...
I once went into radio shack in the US and asked for an extension mains lead. I got a blank look, so I pointed to what I wanted and learned that I should have said power cord.
On 27/11/2024 17:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:from-
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 22:14:56 -0500, Edward Rawde wrote:
"john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message
news:iv1dkj1d8qa5cvm4r5b7mbehcot0lnd057@4ax.com...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-
electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
240V AC never did me any harm.
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
I first remember it when I moved a lamp in the loft (attic) which my
father had left there with the base off with live contacts exposed.
It was unpleasant but not harmful. I only just manage to avoid putting
my foot through the ceiling.
Later I was moving out of a flat (apartment) and we couldn't find the
keys to turn the power off.
The removal guys refused to disconnect the cooker (stove) live so I
did it for them.
Same here. Having dry skin helps a lot. There are still two real
dangers though: wetness in whatever form and accidentally poking your
finger into a socket where there's a live strand sticking out which
punctures your skin. That's when you can *really* get a belt!
It can also get nasty when muscle goes into spasm and contracts a hand
or even just a finger round the conductor, so you can't get free easily.
My first unpleasant experience was with a 350V DC supply in a valve
radio which I was trying to fix. I was holding the DC+ wire ready to
resolder it to the smoothing capacitor. I had removed the capacitor from
its mount, but it was still connected to the rectifier on the negative
side. It wasn't in quite the right position for soldering, so I just
went to pick it up to move it. I had completely forgotten that the case
was connected to the -ve side, and got a hell of a belt from it. My hand contracted around the capacitor, and I wouldn't have been able to let go
but my arm muscles also contracted and I involuntarily threw the
capacitor 15 feet across the room. That broke the connection, but to
this day I don't know why I hadn't turned off the power to the radio
before resoldering. It could have been a lot worse.
Electric snowblowers are a joke here given the limits of ~2KW.
If we had 30A/240, they could 5.7KW that would actually kick butt.
It's one of few things I envy the British about.
On 11/27/24 23:54, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
On 27-11-2024 16:11, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <iv1dkj1d8qa5cvm4r5b7mbehcot0lnd057@4ax.com>, JL@gct.com
says...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
It is probably all the safety standards in this country.
When I first started in a plant about 40 years ago there was very little >>> safety precautions. In the last 20 or so years they got very strict
following new govenment regulations.
The electrical code for homes has gotten onthe safety bandwagon. All
the GFCI and arc flash circuits probably help.
On the other hand, you have USB chargers and other power supplies from
China with poor to some having little barrier insulation. That being
said, I have never hear about a fatality from that risk pool.
Actually, the regulations for building electronic devices are quite
strict. At the same time, we have cars passing each other with a
differential speed of 200km/h within a couple of feet. Kills a lot of
people, but the regulations are never changed (hard to modify existing
infrastructure)
traffic death and serious traffic injuries, is somewhere between half
and a third of what they were just 20 years ago
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a previous
graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached
you can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't smell good.
He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and
disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug at both ends. It means your home-made disco console can use a readily obtainable mains socket for power input and it doesn't matter which way round you unwind the cable. Another advantage
is that you can unplug the console end and use it to fend off violent
drunks.
I don't understand why they're not used more often.
Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund <klauskvik@hotmail.com> writes:
On the other hand, you have USB chargers and other power supplies from
China with poor to some having little barrier insulation. That being
said, I have never hear about a fatality from that risk pool.
I have. Some GenZer used a long USB extension so she could use
her phone in the bathtub. The counterfeit-US approved had nil
line isolation and it killed her.
Actually, the regulations for building electronic devices are quite
strict. At the same time, we have cars passing each other with a differential speed of 200km/h within a couple of feet. Kills a lot of people, but the regulations are never changed (hard to modify existing infrastructure)
traffic death and serious traffic injuries, is somewhere between half
and a third of what they were just 20 years ago
On 2024-11-28 15:39, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a previous
graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached
you can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't smell good.
He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and
disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug at both ends. It means your home-made disco
console can use a readily obtainable mains socket for power input and it
doesn't matter which way round you unwind the cable. Another advantage
is that you can unplug the console end and use it to fend off violent
drunks.
I don't understand why they're not used more often.
Jesus!
Yes, I have seen them. On 220 volts. They were used for transformers,
those that had 120 on one side, 220 on the other, both being female
sockets, so you needed a cable with two male plugs to connect them to
the wall.
We don't see such transformers anymore, but when I was a kid they were >common, because although most houses were 220 volts, some were 125, so
we had gadgets of both voltages.
On 11/28/2024 8:51 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
People have been known to ask for them in stores here because they don't
want to take their christmas lights down and put them up again so that a
plug instead of a socket is next to the power outlet. The usual response is >> that yes one could be made but not legally so no.
Lack of planning? Start stringing the lights from the outlet -- and
begin with the PLUG end! (no rocket science, there)
Chainable light strings are common in North America so there is usually a
socket on the other end to allow connection of another string of lights. I >> don't remember seeing that in Europe.
Yes, and often the plug has an in-built (replaceable) fuse. I think
three strands (of C9's) are the limit (~5A?) -- likely a consequence
of the flimsy wire interconnecting them.
When we string the citrus trees, we have to plan where the strands
will ultimately go so we don't end up with all the lights on one
side of the tree (adjacent to the power inlet) and have to run
a separate extension cord to the far side of the tree. (better to
use a string of lights to get power over there!)
Chainable light strings are common in North America so there is usually a >>> socket on the other end to allow connection of another string of lights. I >>> don't remember seeing that in Europe.
Yes, and often the plug has an in-built (replaceable) fuse. I think
three strands (of C9's) are the limit (~5A?) -- likely a consequence
of the flimsy wire interconnecting them.
Yes I've had to replace the fuse a few times.
Parallel rather than serial topology is rocket science to some people.
When we string the citrus trees, we have to plan where the strands
will ultimately go so we don't end up with all the lights on one
side of the tree (adjacent to the power inlet) and have to run
a separate extension cord to the far side of the tree. (better to
use a string of lights to get power over there!)
Ah yes the lights in the trees.
Then I'm asked to connect the power and I find a socket on the ground.
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a previous
graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you
can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't smell good. He
was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected
him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug on each end. In this case plugged into a 4 way extension block under a rack full of electronics in a top physics lab!
So named because it gets you closer to God.
Google seems singularly unhelpful on this one...
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 11:33:59 -0500, Joe Gwinn wrote:
I have a similar story, from a colleague who had worked at one of the
big accelerators in the US Argonne National Lab in the 1960s. He worked
in the powerhouse that provided 20,000 amps at 10 volts DC to the
accelerator field coils (which were water-cooled copper then), delivered
over a par of large copper bus-bars side by side. One day,
he happened to drop a big steel wrench across the buss bars. The wrench
evaporated with a bang, and the power system carried on. Startled but
unhurt, he called the accelerator control room and asked - they looked
and saw no indication of that momentary short.
.<https://www.anl.gov/>
This crazy English guy shorts out 50,000 Amps for a bit of fun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mGhhdPgXG8&t=7s
On 2024-11-28 21:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 11:33:59 -0500, Joe Gwinn wrote:
I have a similar story, from a colleague who had worked at one of the
big accelerators in the US Argonne National Lab in the 1960s. He worked >>> in the powerhouse that provided 20,000 amps at 10 volts DC to the
accelerator field coils (which were water-cooled copper then), delivered >>> over a par of large copper bus-bars side by side. One day,
he happened to drop a big steel wrench across the buss bars. The wrench
evaporated with a bang, and the power system carried on. Startled but
unhurt, he called the accelerator control room and asked - they looked
and saw no indication of that momentary short.
.<https://www.anl.gov/>
This crazy English guy shorts out 50,000 Amps for a bit of fun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mGhhdPgXG8&t=7s
!!!
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 14:32:01 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-11-28 21:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 11:33:59 -0500, Joe Gwinn wrote:
I have a similar story, from a colleague who had worked at one of the
big accelerators in the US Argonne National Lab in the 1960s. He worked >>>> in the powerhouse that provided 20,000 amps at 10 volts DC to the
accelerator field coils (which were water-cooled copper then), delivered >>>> over a par of large copper bus-bars side by side. One day,
he happened to drop a big steel wrench across the buss bars. The wrench >>>> evaporated with a bang, and the power system carried on. Startled but
unhurt, he called the accelerator control room and asked - they looked >>>> and saw no indication of that momentary short.
.<https://www.anl.gov/>
This crazy English guy shorts out 50,000 Amps for a bit of fun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mGhhdPgXG8&t=7s
!!!
Cool. I wonder is there is a market for 10,000 amp pulse generators.
Sounds interesting.
On 2024-11-29 18:22, john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 14:32:01 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-11-28 21:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 11:33:59 -0500, Joe Gwinn wrote:
I have a similar story, from a colleague who had worked at one of the >>>>> big accelerators in the US Argonne National Lab in the 1960s. He worked >>>>> in the powerhouse that provided 20,000 amps at 10 volts DC to the
accelerator field coils (which were water-cooled copper then), delivered >>>>> over a par of large copper bus-bars side by side. One day,
he happened to drop a big steel wrench across the buss bars. The wrench >>>>> evaporated with a bang, and the power system carried on. Startled but >>>>> unhurt, he called the accelerator control room and asked - they looked >>>>> and saw no indication of that momentary short.
.<https://www.anl.gov/>
This crazy English guy shorts out 50,000 Amps for a bit of fun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mGhhdPgXG8&t=7s
!!!
Cool. I wonder is there is a market for 10,000 amp pulse generators.
Sounds interesting.
Being picky, he failed to blow the 5000A fuse with a 50,000A current. He >provided such current for an instant, which blew the fuse partly. In a
real application, the high current would continue flowing through the
other elements of the fuse, a bigger current per element than rated, and
the rest of the fuse elements would blow in cascade till not one would
be left alive.
On 11/28/2024 11:41 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:via7ui$kcu0$1@dont-email.me...
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by
a
previous graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you can't let go or move and burning human flesh
doesn't smell good. He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug on each end. In this case plugged into a 4 way extension block under a rack full of electronics in a
top
physics lab!
So named because it gets you closer to God.
Google seems singularly unhelpful on this one...
I once went into radio shack in the US and asked for an extension mains lead.
I got a blank look, so I pointed to what I wanted and learned that I should have said power cord.
It was common, in the days of tube-based TV sets, to salvage the power
cord ("cheater") from an old set. The cord on the set was affixed to the back cover to provide an interlock so you couldn't operate the set with
the cover off. The "cheater" eliminated that restriction -- at a bit
of risk to the user.
I don't think the back of our tube-based TV was ever on.
While it was under warranty, service people seemed to arrive monthly.
When it was out of warranty I learned a lot about the practical side of electronics.
Eventually it ran reasonably reliably until the picture tube gave up so my father and myself replaced the A66-140X
https://www.google.com/search?q=beovision+3400+pdf
I don't think the UK ever had any tube only colour TVs, they were all hybrids (tubes for high power / high voltage) and
semiconductors.
In the above case all discrete except for one integrated circuit (line oscillator).
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in messagenews:viaje1$m7b3$3@dont-email.me...
On 11/28/2024 11:41 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message >>news:via7ui$kcu0$1@dont-email.me... > On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. >>wrote: >> On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote: >> >> ... >> >>> One >>of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found himself >>holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by >>> a >>> previous >>graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you >>can't let go or move and burning human flesh >>> doesn't smell good. He >>was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected >>him. >> >> What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are >>songs. > > A mains cable with a plug on each end. In this case plugged >>into a 4 way extension block under a rack full of electronics in a > top >>> physics lab! >
So named because it gets you closer to God.
Google seems singularly unhelpful on this one...
I once went into radio shack in the US and asked for an extension mains
I lead. got a blank look, so I pointed to what I wanted and learned
I that I should have said power cord.
It was common, in the days of tube-based TV sets, to salvage the power
cord ("cheater") from an old set. The cord on the set was affixed to the back cover to provide an interlock so you couldn't operate the set with
the cover off. The "cheater" eliminated that restriction -- at a bit
of risk to the user.
I don't think the back of our tube-based TV was ever on. While it was
under warranty, service people seemed to arrive monthly. When it was out
of warranty I learned a lot about the practical side of electronics. Eventually it ran reasonably reliably until the picture tube gave up so my father and myself replaced the A66-140X
https://www.google.com/search?q=beovision+3400+pdf
I don't think the UK ever had any tube only colour TVs, they were all
hybrids (tubes for high power / high voltage) and semiconductors. In the above case all discrete except for one integrated circuit (line
oscillator).
On 11/29/2024 7:33 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
I don't think the back of our tube-based TV was ever on.
While it was under warranty, service people seemed to arrive monthly.
It was a routine task for me to be charged with pulling ALL the
tubes and walking up to the corner drugstore (where they had a
tube tester) to check them. Invariably, one would be "weak",
replaced and then the TV returned to "new" condition. A fair
bit cheaper than a replacement TV.
On 2024-11-30 06:29, Don Y wrote:
On 11/29/2024 7:33 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
I don't think the back of our tube-based TV was ever on.
While it was under warranty, service people seemed to arrive monthly.
It was a routine task for me to be charged with pulling ALL the
tubes and walking up to the corner drugstore (where they had a
tube tester) to check them. Invariably, one would be "weak",
replaced and then the TV returned to "new" condition. A fair
bit cheaper than a replacement TV.
What meant "weak"? Perhaps they had lost a bit of vacuum? Or a problem
with the cathode?
I remember that we had a B/W TV, and the technician would come to our
home now and then, and replace a tube or two. I was a kid at the time.
Also, the thing was VHF only. There was only one TV channel in Spain. At
some point they created a second channel, on UHF. We had our TV
upgraded, a second tuner control was sticking out on the side. For this >operation they took our only TV to the repair shop for some days.
I think we had to install a new smaller antena for this channel to work.
It had cartoons at about 20 hours, and sometimes there would be
interferences and I would get mad because the only TV program I was
allowed to watch was not working.
"Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:viaje1$m7b3$3@dont-email.me...
On 11/28/2024 11:41 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Martin Brown" <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote in message news:via7ui$kcu0$1@dont-email.me...
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by
a
previous graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once attached you can't let go or move and burning human flesh
doesn't smell good. He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised and disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug on each end. In this case plugged into a 4 way extension block under a rack full of electronics in a
top
physics lab!
So named because it gets you closer to God.
Google seems singularly unhelpful on this one...
I once went into radio shack in the US and asked for an extension mains lead.
I got a blank look, so I pointed to what I wanted and learned that I should have said power cord.
It was common, in the days of tube-based TV sets, to salvage the power
cord ("cheater") from an old set. The cord on the set was affixed to the
back cover to provide an interlock so you couldn't operate the set with
the cover off. The "cheater" eliminated that restriction -- at a bit
of risk to the user.
I don't think the back of our tube-based TV was ever on.
While it was under warranty, service people seemed to arrive monthly.
When it was out of warranty I learned a lot about the practical side of electronics.
Eventually it ran reasonably reliably until the picture tube gave up so my father and myself replaced the A66-140X
https://www.google.com/search?q=beovision+3400+pdf
I don't think the UK ever had any tube only colour TVs, they were all hybrids (tubes for high power / high voltage) and
semiconductors.
In the above case all discrete except for one integrated circuit (line oscillator).
We had great shows, better than most of the junk nowadays. PBS was "educational TV" with lots of science and documentaries. It's mostly
murder mysteries now.
We probably had great shows because where I lived we only had 5
channels.
One was an educational one and another was very weak and some
times not even watchable.
Now with a couple of hundred channels they
have to fill all that air time with something and we get quantify
instead of quality.+
There were two shows that i really liked that do not seem to have an
equal now. One growing up was Mr Wizard and the other was when computers
were coming to the homes was The Computer Chronicles. It told how
computers worked and history of hem.
On 11/30/2024 10:06 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
We probably had great shows because where I lived we only had 5
channels.
Most places had 3 or 4 channels. If you were sited JUST right,
you might catch the fringe of some other metropolitan area's
selection (but, you'd get TWO ABC or two NBC or two CBS, etc.
so not much real variety)
One was an educational one and another was very weak and some
times not even watchable.
Tinfoil!!
Now with a couple of hundred channels they
have to fill all that air time with something and we get quantify
instead of quality.+
I rescanned the broadcast channels last night. I think 66. Of
course, once you ditch the spanish language ones and the shopping
channels... you're still left with shit!
There were two shows that i really liked that do not seem to have an
equal now. One growing up was Mr Wizard and the other was when computers
were coming to the homes was The Computer Chronicles. It told how
computers worked and history of hem.
There are many _Dinosaurs_ episodes that make hilarious references
to "Mr Lizard" ("We're gonna need another Timmy!")
There were two shows that i really liked that do not seem to have an
equal now. One growing up was Mr Wizard and the other was when computers
were coming to the homes was The Computer Chronicles. It told how
computers worked and history of hem.
There are many _Dinosaurs_ episodes that make hilarious references
to "Mr Lizard" ("We're gonna need another Timmy!")
In article <8jdmkj9jr9eq2f1tfqhsrmf72s2phuupsq@4ax.com>, JL@gct.com
says...
We had great shows, better than most of the junk nowadays. PBS was
"educational TV" with lots of science and documentaries. It's mostly
murder mysteries now.
We probably had great shows because where I lived we only had 5
channels. One was an educational one and another was very weak and some times not even watchable. Now with a couple of hundred channels they
have to fill all that air time with something and we get quantify
instead of quality.+
Most places had 3 or 4 channels. If you were sited JUST right,
you might catch the fringe of some other metropolitan area's
selection (but, you'd get TWO ABC or two NBC or two CBS, etc.
so not much real variety)
One was an educational one and another was very weak and some
times not even watchable.
Tinfoil!!
Now with a couple of hundred channels they
have to fill all that air time with something and we get quantify
instead of quality.+
I rescanned the broadcast channels last night. I think 66. Of
course, once you ditch the spanish language ones and the shopping
channels... you're still left with shit!
On 11/30/24 18:06, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <8jdmkj9jr9eq2f1tfqhsrmf72s2phuupsq@4ax.com>, JL@gct.com
says...
We had great shows, better than most of the junk nowadays. PBS was
"educational TV" with lots of science and documentaries. It's mostly
murder mysteries now.
We probably had great shows because where I lived we only had 5
channels. One was an educational one and another was very weak and some
times not even watchable. Now with a couple of hundred channels they
have to fill all that air time with something and we get quantify
instead of quality.+
You'd think that competition would tend to make for better
quality, but it doesn't work like that. The channels show
what they think people want to see, and most people have
primitive tastes.
Look at what kind of person was chosen to become your president:
A TV show host, and a boorish one at that! Wretched!
Jeroen Belleman
We lived about halfway between two large cities, about 40 miles each way
and used an outside antenna without a rotaor. The upper vhf antenna was pointed to one town that had the high channels and the lower vhf antenna
was pointed to the othe town that was about 180 deg fromthe first one.
To get one of the stations I had to go outside with a pipe wrench and
turn the antenna pipe that was about 20 feet tall to get it.
I get somewhere around the same 60 to 70 channels on my tv with the
outside antenna. Have to devide that by 3 or 4 as each station has that
many sub channels.
With the dish network I get about 200 more with the
package we have. And like you say still shit to watch unless you watch
some of the older stuff from the 1950 to 1980 TV shows but before long
all you get is reruns of them instead of more shows. One station runs
the old Star Trek series off the origional and 3 off shoots of it over
and over.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the
part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
Risk taking is probably the biggest contributor. Like the handyman who
was standing on a metal ladder _in_ a public swimming pool, drilling a
hole in the ceiling above using a 230V power drill. Far from the next
outlet so multiple extension cords in a row and one of the couplings was
down in the water.
I regularly visit a guy in a care home who is there because of a fall from great height. A former neighbor in Europe wasn't so lucky. He only lived, to some extent, another four days in the hospital.
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as >Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the
part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
Risk taking is probably the biggest contributor. Like the handyman who
was standing on a metal ladder _in_ a public swimming pool, drilling a
hole in the ceiling above using a 230V power drill. Far from the next
outlet so multiple extension cords in a row and one of the couplings was
down in the water.
On 11/30/2024 4:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
I regularly visit a guy in a care home who is there because of a fall from >> great height. A former neighbor in Europe wasn't so lucky. He only lived, to >> some extent, another four days in the hospital.
My Math teacher in JrHigh was changing the lights on the ceiling
of the gymnasium (some 30 ft above the hardwood floor) with another
person (I don't recall who -- nor why a math teacher was doing something
that a maintenance person should have!)
To save time, instead of climbing down the scaffolding to unlock the
wheels, move it 6 ft, relock the wheels, and reclimb it, they would
pull themselves along by grasping the I-beams that supported the
ceiling.
Of course, the scaffolding eventually fell. Must have been an interesting >experience, clinging to the I-beams in the hope that someone would
discover your folly and re-erect it before your grasp failed.
He spent months in a body cast (broken back) -- but, was in reasonably
good spirits (realizing that he was the source of his own problem).
On 11/30/2024 10:06 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
We probably had great shows because where I lived we only had 5
channels.
Most places had 3 or 4 channels. If you were sited JUST right,
you might catch the fringe of some other metropolitan area's
selection (but, you'd get TWO ABC or two NBC or two CBS, etc.
so not much real variety)
 One was an educational one and another was very weak and some
times not even watchable.
Tinfoil!!
 Now with a couple of hundred channels they
have to fill all that air time with something and we get quantify
instead of quality.+
On 11/30/2024 2:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I get somewhere around the same 60 to 70 channels on my tv with the
outside antenna. Have to devide that by 3 or 4 as each station has that
many sub channels.
Yes. Not to mention the channels that seem to actually be clones of
each other:Â "Wait, wasn't this show on that OTHER station just two
seconds ago as I channel surfed past it?"
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-
electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the
part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
Risk taking is probably the biggest contributor. Like the handyman who
was standing on a metal ladder _in_ a public swimming pool, drilling a
hole in the ceiling above using a 230V power drill. Far from the next
outlet so multiple extension cords in a row and one of the couplings was
down in the water.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
There was a guy in our marina working on his boat, about waist deep in
Lake Pontchartrain. He was drilling a hole using one of those old
2-wire aluminum-case drills. He died.
Lake Pontchartrain is 630 square miles and is largely waist-deep. Some
people claim parts hit 12 feet, but actually it just gets thicker as
you go down.
On 11/30/2024 10:19 AM, Don Y wrote:
There were two shows that i really liked that do not seem to have an
equal now. One growing up was Mr Wizard and the other was when computers >>> were coming to the homes was The Computer Chronicles. It told how
computers worked and history of hem.
There are many _Dinosaurs_ episodes that make hilarious references
to "Mr Lizard" ("We're gonna need another Timmy!")
In no particular order:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP7U8ha-dCs> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM1S27fPUQY> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGodtjvO5yI>
On 2024-12-01 03:42, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
...
There was a guy in our marina working on his boat, about waist deep in
Lake Pontchartrain. He was drilling a hole using one of those old
2-wire aluminum-case drills. He died.
I'm wondering if using today a battery powered drill would be safe in
that situation.
On 11/29/2024 7:33 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
I don't think the back of our tube-based TV was ever on.
While it was under warranty, service people seemed to arrive monthly.
It was a routine task for me to be charged with pulling ALL the tubes
and walking up to the corner drugstore (where they had a tube tester) to check them. Invariably, one would be "weak", replaced and then the TV returned to "new" condition. A fair bit cheaper than a replacement TV.
When it was out of warranty I learned a lot about the practical side of
electronics.
Eventually it ran reasonably reliably until the picture tube gave up so
my father and myself replaced the A66-140X
https://www.google.com/search?q=beovision+3400+pdf
I don't think the UK ever had any tube only colour TVs, they were all
hybrids (tubes for high power / high voltage) and semiconductors.
In the above case all discrete except for one integrated circuit (line
oscillator).
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 01:30:40 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-11-28 15:39, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found
himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a
previous graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once
attached you can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't
smell good. He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised
and disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug at both ends. It means your home-made disco
console can use a readily obtainable mains socket for power input and
it doesn't matter which way round you unwind the cable. Another
advantage is that you can unplug the console end and use it to fend
off violent drunks.
I don't understand why they're not used more often.
Jesus!
Yes, I have seen them. On 220 volts. They were used for transformers,
those that had 120 on one side, 220 on the other, both being female >>sockets, so you needed a cable with two male plugs to connect them to
the wall.
We don't see such transformers anymore, but when I was a kid they were >>common, because although most houses were 220 volts, some were 125, so
we had gadgets of both voltages.
I've seen them used between two houses, when one had the power shut off.
In article <8jdmkj9jr9eq2f1tfqhsrmf72s2phuupsq@4ax.com>, JL@gct.com
says...
We probably had great shows because where I lived we only had 5
We had great shows, better than most of the junk nowadays. PBS was
"educational TV" with lots of science and documentaries. It's mostly
murder mysteries now.
channels. One was an educational one and another was very weak and some times not even watchable. Now with a couple of hundred channels they
have to fill all that air time with something and we get quantify
instead of quality.+
There were two shows that i really liked that do not seem to have an
equal now. One growing up was Mr Wizard and the other was when computers
were coming to the homes was The Computer Chronicles. It told how
computers worked and history of hem.
On 2024-11-30 18:47, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2024 10:19 AM, Don Y wrote:
There were two shows that i really liked that do not seem to have an
equal now. One growing up was Mr Wizard and the other was when
computers were coming to the homes was The Computer Chronicles. It
told how computers worked and history of hem.
There are many _Dinosaurs_ episodes that make hilarious references to
"Mr Lizard" ("We're gonna need another Timmy!")
In no particular order:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP7U8ha-dCs>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM1S27fPUQY>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGodtjvO5yI>
Gosh :-)
I don't think these got translated and aired over my way (many cartoons were).
On the other hand, maybe they would not be politically correct today :-P
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:25:03 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/30/24 18:06, Ralph Mowery wrote:Should be fun.
In article <8jdmkj9jr9eq2f1tfqhsrmf72s2phuupsq@4ax.com>, JL@gct.com
says...
We probably had great shows because where I lived we only had 5
We had great shows, better than most of the junk nowadays. PBS was
"educational TV" with lots of science and documentaries. It's mostly
murder mysteries now.
channels. One was an educational one and another was very weak and
some times not even watchable. Now with a couple of hundred channels
they have to fill all that air time with something and we get quantify
instead of quality.+
You'd think that competition would tend to make for better quality, but
it doesn't work like that. The channels show what they think people want
to see, and most people have primitive tastes.
Look at what kind of person was chosen to become your president:
A TV show host, and a boorish one at that! Wretched!
Jeroen Belleman
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as >Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the
part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 16:21:59 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 11/30/2024 4:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
I regularly visit a guy in a care home who is there because of a fall from >>> great height. A former neighbor in Europe wasn't so lucky. He only lived, to
some extent, another four days in the hospital.
My Math teacher in JrHigh was changing the lights on the ceiling
of the gymnasium (some 30 ft above the hardwood floor) with another
person (I don't recall who -- nor why a math teacher was doing something >>that a maintenance person should have!)
To save time, instead of climbing down the scaffolding to unlock the >>wheels, move it 6 ft, relock the wheels, and reclimb it, they would
pull themselves along by grasping the I-beams that supported the
ceiling.
Of course, the scaffolding eventually fell. Must have been an interesting >>experience, clinging to the I-beams in the hope that someone would
discover your folly and re-erect it before your grasp failed.
He spent months in a body cast (broken back) -- but, was in reasonably
good spirits (realizing that he was the source of his own problem).
In 6th grade, a guy came into our class with a lader to change a
fluorescent tube. Miss Denton wisely decided to take the class for a
walk. Before we were all out of the room, the giant fixture collapsed
onto a row of desks. Kids would have been killed.
Even worse, some kid brough in a swolen can of something as some sort
of science demo, and put it on a windowsill in the Louisiana sun. It
exploded and splattered insanely putrid stuff, mostly on the Student
Council President.
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 17:58:18 -0800, john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 01:30:40 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-11-28 15:39, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found >>>>>> himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a
previous graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once >>>>>> attached you can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't
smell good. He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised >>>>>> and disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs.
A mains cable with a plug at both ends. It means your home-made disco >>>> console can use a readily obtainable mains socket for power input and
it doesn't matter which way round you unwind the cable. Another
advantage is that you can unplug the console end and use it to fend
off violent drunks.
I don't understand why they're not used more often.
Jesus!
Yes, I have seen them. On 220 volts. They were used for transformers,
those that had 120 on one side, 220 on the other, both being female
sockets, so you needed a cable with two male plugs to connect them to
the wall.
We don't see such transformers anymore, but when I was a kid they were
common, because although most houses were 220 volts, some were 125, so
we had gadgets of both voltages.
I've seen them used between two houses, when one had the power shut off.
There are thousands of 240VAC to 110VAC transformers in the UK. You can
buy or hire them. They are mandatory for site work. IOW, builders who need mains power for their drills and saws etc have to use these transformers
for safety reasons.
They're not really practical for me, though, since
they're industrial jobs and weigh about 30lb each. Hence I'd use my variac for anything up to 1hp load. It only handles up to 3.15A max but at least
I can move it around with ease.
On 01/12/2024 17:59, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-
from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-
European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as
Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the >>> part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new
isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was
bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more
realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe
things are plugged in.
Joe Gwinn
In some countries the two contacts are between phases on a three-phase supply, so there is no neutral at the socket.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 19:06:47 -0800, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 16:21:59 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:
On 11/30/2024 4:13 PM, Joerg wrote:
I regularly visit a guy in a care home who is there because of a fall from >>>> great height. A former neighbor in Europe wasn't so lucky. He only lived, to
some extent, another four days in the hospital.
My Math teacher in JrHigh was changing the lights on the ceiling
of the gymnasium (some 30 ft above the hardwood floor) with another
person (I don't recall who -- nor why a math teacher was doing something >>> that a maintenance person should have!)
To save time, instead of climbing down the scaffolding to unlock the
wheels, move it 6 ft, relock the wheels, and reclimb it, they would
pull themselves along by grasping the I-beams that supported the
ceiling.
Of course, the scaffolding eventually fell. Must have been an interesting >>> experience, clinging to the I-beams in the hope that someone would
discover your folly and re-erect it before your grasp failed.
He spent months in a body cast (broken back) -- but, was in reasonably
good spirits (realizing that he was the source of his own problem).
In 6th grade, a guy came into our class with a lader to change a
fluorescent tube. Miss Denton wisely decided to take the class for a
walk. Before we were all out of the room, the giant fixture collapsed
onto a row of desks. Kids would have been killed.
Even worse, some kid brough in a swolen can of something as some sort
of science demo, and put it on a windowsill in the Louisiana sun. It
exploded and splattered insanely putrid stuff, mostly on the Student
Council President.
Surströmming?
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surstr%C3%B6mming>
On 2024-12-01 18:29, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 17:58:18 -0800, john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 01:30:40 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-11-28 15:39, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 28/11/2024 13:41, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-28 13:14, Martin Brown wrote:A mains cable with a plug at both ends. It means your home-made disco >>>>> console can use a readily obtainable mains socket for power input and >>>>> it doesn't matter which way round you unwind the cable. Another
...
One of my friends at university (at a top level institution) found >>>>>>> himself holding a live plug a on Jesus lead left behind by a
previous graduate student. The burns from that were horrific. Once >>>>>>> attached you can't let go or move and burning human flesh doesn't >>>>>>> smell good. He was probably only on for 30s before someone realised >>>>>>> and disconnected him.
What's a "Jesus lead"? I tried to google, but what I find are songs. >>>>>
advantage is that you can unplug the console end and use it to fend
off violent drunks.
I don't understand why they're not used more often.
Jesus!
Yes, I have seen them. On 220 volts. They were used for transformers,
those that had 120 on one side, 220 on the other, both being female
sockets, so you needed a cable with two male plugs to connect them to
the wall.
We don't see such transformers anymore, but when I was a kid they were >>>> common, because although most houses were 220 volts, some were 125, so >>>> we had gadgets of both voltages.
I've seen them used between two houses, when one had the power shut off.
There are thousands of 240VAC to 110VAC transformers in the UK. You can
buy or hire them. They are mandatory for site work. IOW, builders who need >> mains power for their drills and saws etc have to use these transformers
for safety reasons.
Huh? Why would they want to use their power tools at half the voltage and at least half the power? Running a 240 volt drill at
110?
It would make sense to use a 240:240 isolation transformer, though.
They're not really practical for me, though, since
they're industrial jobs and weigh about 30lb each. Hence I'd use my variac >> for anything up to 1hp load. It only handles up to 3.15A max but at least
I can move it around with ease.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
On 2024-11-30 18:47, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2024 10:19 AM, Don Y wrote:
There were two shows that i really liked that do not seem to have an
equal now. One growing up was Mr Wizard and the other was when computers >>>> were coming to the homes was The Computer Chronicles. It told how
computers worked and history of hem.
There are many _Dinosaurs_ episodes that make hilarious references
to "Mr Lizard" ("We're gonna need another Timmy!")
In no particular order:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP7U8ha-dCs>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM1S27fPUQY>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGodtjvO5yI>
Gosh :-)
I don't think these got translated and aired over my way (many cartoons were).
On the other hand, maybe they would not be politically correct today :-P
Risk taking is probably the biggest contributor. Like the handyman who was >> standing on a metal ladder _in_ a public swimming pool, drilling a hole in >> the ceiling above using a 230V power drill. Far from the next outlet so
multiple extension cords in a row and one of the couplings was down in the >> water.
:-O
How did he get to the ladder? Swimming?
(just one of many possible questions)
On 2024-11-30 23:28, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2024 2:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I get somewhere around the same 60 to 70 channels on my tv with the
outside antenna. Have to devide that by 3 or 4 as each station has that
many sub channels.
Yes. Not to mention the channels that seem to actually be clones of
each other:Â "Wait, wasn't this show on that OTHER station just two
seconds ago as I channel surfed past it?"
On fibre TV, on the other hand (we did not have cable TV till nearly year 2000,
and when we did it was a different system), we have a new nuisance. To watch this or that serial that you possibly want, you have to subscribe to a new offering. Say Disney, Showtime, Skysomething, etc. You have to be rich to be able to choose the program of the moment.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 15:12:47 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-11-30 06:29, Don Y wrote:
On 11/29/2024 7:33 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
I don't think the back of our tube-based TV was ever on.
While it was under warranty, service people seemed to arrive monthly.
It was a routine task for me to be charged with pulling ALL the
tubes and walking up to the corner drugstore (where they had a
tube tester) to check them. Invariably, one would be "weak",
replaced and then the TV returned to "new" condition. A fair
bit cheaper than a replacement TV.
What meant "weak"? Perhaps they had lost a bit of vacuum? Or a problem
with the cathode?
Usually bad cathode emission, sometimes gas, rarely a short.
CRT cathodes would get weak, and one could add a filament voltage
booster thing to get a bit more lifetime out of a tube.
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote in message news:f1ru1lxdqh.ln2@Telcontar.valinor...
On 2024-12-01 18:29, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 17:58:18 -0800, john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 01:30:40 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
There are thousands of 240VAC to 110VAC transformers in the UK. You canJesus!
Yes, I have seen them. On 220 volts. They were used for transformers, >>>>> those that had 120 on one side, 220 on the other, both being female
sockets, so you needed a cable with two male plugs to connect them to >>>>> the wall.
We don't see such transformers anymore, but when I was a kid they were >>>>> common, because although most houses were 220 volts, some were 125, so >>>>> we had gadgets of both voltages.
I've seen them used between two houses, when one had the power shut off. >>>
buy or hire them. They are mandatory for site work. IOW, builders who need >>> mains power for their drills and saws etc have to use these transformers >>> for safety reasons.
Huh? Why would they want to use their power tools at half the voltage and at least half the power? Running a 240 volt drill at
110?
No, the power tools will be designed for 115V
Building sites require nothing above 60V (the exact number may be 55, not sure) between you and ground.
So 240V to 120V isolation transformer with secondary centre tapped to ground. Public display christmas tree lights may require the same. Nothing above 60V so you can't get your hand on the open circuit end end
of a string which has 240V on the other end.
john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 15:12:47 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-11-30 06:29, Don Y wrote:
On 11/29/2024 7:33 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
I don't think the back of our tube-based TV was ever on.It was a routine task for me to be charged with pulling ALL the
While it was under warranty, service people seemed to arrive monthly. >>>>
tubes and walking up to the corner drugstore (where they had a
tube tester) to check them. Invariably, one would be "weak",
replaced and then the TV returned to "new" condition. A fair
bit cheaper than a replacement TV.
What meant "weak"? Perhaps they had lost a bit of vacuum? Or a problem
with the cathode?
Usually bad cathode emission, sometimes gas, rarely a short.
CRT cathodes would get weak, and one could add a filament voltage
booster thing to get a bit more lifetime out of a tube.
One of the problems was identified as an insulating layer building up
between the bulk of the cathode coating and the surface layer. If I
remember correctly it was caused by molecules of occluded gas (mainly
oxygen) being released from the electrodes. Better de-gassing methods,
which included induction heating the electrodes while the valve was on
the pump, coupled with improved getters, improved valve life - but these improvements only came at the end of the valve era and didn't benefit
1950s televisions.
The problem was made worse by the set designers trying to screw the
maximum performance out of each valve and component ...and then some. Over-run screen grid resistors changed value, which overheated the
screen grid and released gasses, which caused ionisation, increased the
anode cureent and overheated the anode - which released more gas etc.
On 12/1/2024 6:49 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2024-11-30 23:28, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2024 2:11 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
I get somewhere around the same 60 to 70 channels on my tv with the
outside antenna. Have to devide that by 3 or 4 as each station has that >>>> many sub channels.
Yes. Not to mention the channels that seem to actually be clones of
each other:Â "Wait, wasn't this show on that OTHER station just two
seconds ago as I channel surfed past it?"
On fibre TV, on the other hand (we did not have cable TV till nearly
year 2000, and when we did it was a different system), we have a new
nuisance. To watch this or that serial that you possibly want, you
have to subscribe to a new offering. Say Disney, Showtime,
Skysomething, etc. You have to be rich to be able to choose the
program of the moment.
I don't believe in paying for "broadcast" TV -- even if it is over a constrained medium (e.g., "Cable").
What little we watch (now), we do with a DVR so we can time shift as well
as skip through the commercials. SWMBO has fallen in love with it as
it trims 30% off of her viewing time!
Most of our "viewing" is in the form of movies. Our local library is
pretty good at keeping current with titles -- though you may have to
wait for the title you want. We typically have 10 titles out at a
time to cut down on our trips to the library. You can each it for
4 weeks, then renew for 3 weeks -- up to 4 times -- then be a month
late returning it without a fine. Far too permissive, IMO, but it
seems to work reasonably well. (and, they did away with fines,
recently, so what incentive to return titles??)
On 01/12/2024 17:59, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as
Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the >>> part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new
isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was
bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more
realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe
things are plugged in.
Joe Gwinn
In some countries the two contacts are between phases on a three-phase >supply, so there is no neutral at the socket.
On 2024-12-01 21:05, Edward Rawde wrote:
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote in message
news:f1ru1lxdqh.ln2@Telcontar.valinor...
On 2024-12-01 18:29, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 17:58:18 -0800, john larkin wrote:
On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 01:30:40 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
...
Jesus!
Yes, I have seen them. On 220 volts. They were used for
transformers, those that had 120 on one side, 220 on the other,
both being female sockets, so you needed a cable with two male
plugs to connect them to the wall.
We don't see such transformers anymore, but when I was a kid they
were common, because although most houses were 220 volts, some were >>>>>> 125, so we had gadgets of both voltages.
I've seen them used between two houses, when one had the power shut
off.
There are thousands of 240VAC to 110VAC transformers in the UK. You
can buy or hire them. They are mandatory for site work. IOW, builders
who need mains power for their drills and saws etc have to use these
transformers for safety reasons.
Huh? Why would they want to use their power tools at half the voltage
and at least half the power? Running a 240 volt drill at 110?
No, the power tools will be designed for 115V Building sites require
nothing above 60V (the exact number may be 55, not sure) between you
and ground.
So 240V to 120V isolation transformer with secondary centre tapped to
ground.
Public display christmas tree lights may require the same. Nothing
above 60V so you can't get your hand on the open circuit end end of a
string which has 240V on the other end.
Ah, it is a building code somewhere. USA? Ah, no, you said UK. Well,
that is a surprise to me. I had no idea.
But they are using the two semiphases, so 120 volts tools?
Interesting idea. Wise. Unless some idiot forgets to install the ground connection because he is on a hurry.
No, here (Spain) we use full voltage (230) at building sites. Some
machines, like the crane, may have the three phases, ie, 300 volts
between phases. Of course, I suppose many workers are using battery
powered tools.
On 2024-11-30 18:19, Don Y wrote:
On 11/30/2024 10:06 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
We probably had great shows because where I lived we only had 5
channels.
Most places had 3 or 4 channels. If you were sited JUST right,
you might catch the fringe of some other metropolitan area's
selection (but, you'd get TWO ABC or two NBC or two CBS, etc.
so not much real variety)
I live on the south-east of Spain. Back then, in summer, or maybe just before summer, we would get interference coming from Italy or Morocco, over the sea. I
think it was on the VHF band.
I don't believe in paying for "broadcast" TV -- even if it is over a
constrained medium (e.g., "Cable").
Me neither, but life is boring outside of it.
What little we watch (now), we do with a DVR so we can time shift as well
as skip through the commercials. SWMBO has fallen in love with it as
it trims 30% off of her viewing time!
We also have time shift, on all channels. The tiny box at home sends a command
to the server farm, and the time stops or goes backwards. Of course, the response time is sluggish, but it works, with relatively dumb hardware at home.
Reminds me. Over a decade ago I bought a Gigaset M740 AV terrestrial digital tv
tuner. It could record or time shift using an external usb hard disk (not provided) or a Windows or Linux computer sharing a directory.
It had two tuners. It was capable of recording from two stations at the same time as playing a previous recording.
And it had a community of developers, so that there were alternative firmwares
more powerful than the original.
Unfortunately, the digital broadcasting system in Spain has been improved to HD
(high definition), and the machine does not work any more (as a tuner/recorder). I have not found a modern replacement with similar capabilities.
Most of our "viewing" is in the form of movies. Our local library is
pretty good at keeping current with titles -- though you may have to
wait for the title you want. We typically have 10 titles out at a
time to cut down on our trips to the library. You can each it for
4 weeks, then renew for 3 weeks -- up to 4 times -- then be a month
late returning it without a fine. Far too permissive, IMO, but it
seems to work reasonably well. (and, they did away with fines,
recently, so what incentive to return titles??)
On DVDs?
I don't think there are DVD libraries here. I should ask.
On 12/1/2024 2:31 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't believe in paying for "broadcast" TV -- even if it is over a
constrained medium (e.g., "Cable").
Me neither, but life is boring outside of it.
I find it hard to make time for "(traditional) entertainment"; there
are far too many MORE interesting things to do!
What little we watch (now), we do with a DVR so we can time shift as
well
as skip through the commercials. SWMBO has fallen in love with it as
it trims 30% off of her viewing time!
We also have time shift, on all channels. The tiny box at home sends a
command to the server farm, and the time stops or goes backwards. Of
course, the response time is sluggish, but it works, with relatively
dumb hardware at home.
So, your "provider" interacts with your "client" (box)?
I rescued a box that records OTA broadcasts onto disk. So, there is no other entity involved in the transaction. No one knows what we are watching,
when we skip commercials, etc.
Reminds me. Over a decade ago I bought a Gigaset M740 AV terrestrial
digital tv tuner. It could record or time shift using an external usb
hard disk (not provided) or a Windows or Linux computer sharing a
directory.
It had two tuners. It was capable of recording from two stations at
the same time as playing a previous recording.
Yes, this is exactly similar. But, the disk is built in. (no idea how large
it is nor how much "content" it can store. SWMBO just uses it to watch early morning or late night (the night before) shows. E.g., sometimes the PBS channel will broadcast an old (or "artsy") movie that she won't want to stay up to view "live".
And it had a community of developers, so that there were alternative
firmwares more powerful than the original.
Unfortunately, the digital broadcasting system in Spain has been
improved to HD (high definition), and the machine does not work any
more (as a tuner/recorder). I have not found a modern replacement with
similar capabilities.
You might want to check the Silicon Dust offerings. No idea as to their international capabilities. But, I've designed them into my current project. The goal being to eliminate "real" TVs and just push pixels
down the wire to "displays". as such, any display becomes a TV (or
movie screen or baby monitor/nanny cam or...)
Most of our "viewing" is in the form of movies. Our local library is
pretty good at keeping current with titles -- though you may have to
wait for the title you want. We typically have 10 titles out at a
time to cut down on our trips to the library. You can each it for
4 weeks, then renew for 3 weeks -- up to 4 times -- then be a month
late returning it without a fine. Far too permissive, IMO, but it
seems to work reasonably well. (and, they did away with fines,
recently, so what incentive to return titles??)
On DVDs?
Yes. Tape has long been discarded. CDs are also on the obsolescent list. Amusing how eagerly the library tries to rid itself of titles!
(this is exactly contrary to how things were when I was a kid; you
could find all sorts of "old material" archived in libraries!)
I'll watch "Despicable Me 4" (which will probably be a disappointment),
"The Wild Robot" (which will probably disappoint -- for different reasons), "Deadpool & Wolverine" (which will likely be silly brain rot) and "IF"
(which may well be entertaining) next week. Beyond that, it is hard to predict when the reservations queued before mine will be filled.
I don't think there are DVD libraries here. I should ask.
Sadly, I suspect the local library is used primarily for DVDs and
public computer access. The librarian gets very excited when I
submit a request for some technical paper or text that they will
have to find in some other (out of state) library. They always wonder
about the particular *content*. I guess it makes them feel "needed"?
On 2024-12-02 06:20, Don Y wrote:
On 12/1/2024 2:31 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I don't believe in paying for "broadcast" TV -- even if it is over a
constrained medium (e.g., "Cable").
Me neither, but life is boring outside of it.
I find it hard to make time for "(traditional) entertainment"; there
are far too many MORE interesting things to do!
What little we watch (now), we do with a DVR so we can time shift as
well
as skip through the commercials. SWMBO has fallen in love with it as
it trims 30% off of her viewing time!
We also have time shift, on all channels. The tiny box at home sends a
command to the server farm, and the time stops or goes backwards. Of
course, the response time is sluggish, but it works, with relatively
dumb hardware at home.
So, your "provider" interacts with your "client" (box)?
Yep.
I rescued a box that records OTA broadcasts onto disk. So, there is no
other entity involved in the transaction. No one knows what we are
watching,
when we skip commercials, etc.
Sure, but over here most of the channels that broadcast over the air are
not interesting. And the signal suffers some interruptions or interference.
Reminds me. Over a decade ago I bought a Gigaset M740 AV terrestrial
digital tv tuner. It could record or time shift using an external usb
hard disk (not provided) or a Windows or Linux computer sharing a
directory.
It had two tuners. It was capable of recording from two stations at
the same time as playing a previous recording.
Yes, this is exactly similar. But, the disk is built in. (no idea how
large
it is nor how much "content" it can store. SWMBO just uses it to watch
early morning or late night (the night before) shows. E.g., sometimes the >> PBS channel will broadcast an old (or "artsy") movie that she won't want to >> stay up to view "live".
And it had a community of developers, so that there were alternative
firmwares more powerful than the original.
Unfortunately, the digital broadcasting system in Spain has been
improved to HD (high definition), and the machine does not work any
more (as a tuner/recorder). I have not found a modern replacement with
similar capabilities.
You might want to check the Silicon Dust offerings. No idea as to their
international capabilities. But, I've designed them into my current
project. The goal being to eliminate "real" TVs and just push pixels
down the wire to "displays". as such, any display becomes a TV (or
movie screen or baby monitor/nanny cam or...)
MythTV is very powerful, but in the past I had trouble making Digital TV >cards work with Linux
Most of our "viewing" is in the form of movies. Our local library is
pretty good at keeping current with titles -- though you may have to
wait for the title you want. We typically have 10 titles out at a
time to cut down on our trips to the library. You can each it for
4 weeks, then renew for 3 weeks -- up to 4 times -- then be a month
late returning it without a fine. Far too permissive, IMO, but it
seems to work reasonably well. (and, they did away with fines,
recently, so what incentive to return titles??)
On DVDs?
Yes. Tape has long been discarded. CDs are also on the obsolescent
list. Amusing how eagerly the library tries to rid itself of titles!
(this is exactly contrary to how things were when I was a kid; you
could find all sorts of "old material" archived in libraries!)
Right.
I'll watch "Despicable Me 4" (which will probably be a disappointment),
"The Wild Robot" (which will probably disappoint -- for different reasons), >> "Deadpool & Wolverine" (which will likely be silly brain rot) and "IF"
(which may well be entertaining) next week. Beyond that, it is hard to
predict when the reservations queued before mine will be filled.
I don't think there are DVD libraries here. I should ask.
Sadly, I suspect the local library is used primarily for DVDs and
public computer access. The librarian gets very excited when I
submit a request for some technical paper or text that they will
have to find in some other (out of state) library. They always wonder
about the particular *content*. I guess it makes them feel "needed"?
Quite :-)
On 2024-11-30 23:24, Joerg wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from- electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such
as Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake
on the part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
Risk taking is probably the biggest contributor. Like the handyman who
was standing on a metal ladder _in_ a public swimming pool, drilling a
hole in the ceiling above using a 230V power drill. Far from the next
outlet so multiple extension cords in a row and one of the couplings
was down in the water.
:-O
How did he get to the ladder? Swimming?
(just one of many possible questions)
I rescued a box that records OTA broadcasts onto disk. So, there is no
other entity involved in the transaction. No one knows what we are watching,
when we skip commercials, etc.
Sure, but over here most of the channels that broadcast over the air are not interesting. And the signal suffers some interruptions or interference.
You might want to check the Silicon Dust offerings. No idea as to their
international capabilities. But, I've designed them into my current
project. The goal being to eliminate "real" TVs and just push pixels
down the wire to "displays". as such, any display becomes a TV (or
movie screen or baby monitor/nanny cam or...)
MythTV is very powerful, but in the past I had trouble making Digital TV cards
work with Linux
I'll watch "Despicable Me 4" (which will probably be a disappointment),
"The Wild Robot" (which will probably disappoint -- for different reasons), >> "Deadpool & Wolverine" (which will likely be silly brain rot) and "IF"
(which may well be entertaining) next week. Beyond that, it is hard to
predict when the reservations queued before mine will be filled.
I don't think there are DVD libraries here. I should ask.
Sadly, I suspect the local library is used primarily for DVDs and
public computer access. The librarian gets very excited when I
submit a request for some technical paper or text that they will
have to find in some other (out of state) library. They always wonder
about the particular *content*. I guess it makes them feel "needed"?
Quite :-)
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as
Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the
part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new
isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was
bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe
things are plugged in.
Joe Gwinn
On 12/2/2024 6:11 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
I rescued a box that records OTA broadcasts onto disk. So, there is no >>> other entity involved in the transaction. No one knows what we are
watching,
when we skip commercials, etc.
Sure, but over here most of the channels that broadcast over the air
are not interesting. And the signal suffers some interruptions or
interference.
Oh, so the "provider" I mentioned is NOT the "public broadcasters" but, rather, some "cable service". That would be the same, here.
And, most OTA broadcasts, here, are shite, as well. But, the local
news and some late night talk shows (comedians) are worth watching (especially if you can select which PARTS you will be watching)
You might want to check the Silicon Dust offerings. No idea as to their >>> international capabilities. But, I've designed them into my current
project. The goal being to eliminate "real" TVs and just push pixels
down the wire to "displays". as such, any display becomes a TV (or
movie screen or baby monitor/nanny cam or...)
MythTV is very powerful, but in the past I had trouble making Digital
TV cards work with Linux
The SD offerings are stand-alone boxes; typically two (optimized now, to
one)
antenna/cable input and a network connection. (I think once you get above 4? tuners, they add network interfaces just because HD content -- for multiple
concurrent broadcasts -- can quickly consume bandwidth of a single
interface)
I'll watch "Despicable Me 4" (which will probably be a disappointment),
"The Wild Robot" (which will probably disappoint -- for different
reasons),
"Deadpool & Wolverine" (which will likely be silly brain rot) and "IF"
(which may well be entertaining) next week. Beyond that, it is hard to >>> predict when the reservations queued before mine will be filled.
I don't think there are DVD libraries here. I should ask.
Sadly, I suspect the local library is used primarily for DVDs and
public computer access. The librarian gets very excited when I
submit a request for some technical paper or text that they will
have to find in some other (out of state) library. They always wonder
about the particular *content*. I guess it makes them feel "needed"?
Quite :-)
<shrug>Â I am happy that *I* don't have to chase down the references. Apparently, it costs them something on the order of $75 to chase down
a single reference. Should I feel "guilty"?
What is most annoying is that "technical papers" will typically be
FAXed to them. Why not just send a PDF and let me retrieve it electronically (via my on-line account)? In addition to the degraded
copy quality, it means I have to scan and OCR the document myself! :<
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as
Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the >>> part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new
isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was
bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more
realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe
things are plugged in.
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then
you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders.
In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then, >>>>> no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as >>>> Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the >>>> part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new
isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was
bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more
realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe
things are plugged in.
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then
you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders.
In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed.
I think that the 99+ percent is quite optimistic, especially on older buildings. Back when I was an apartment-dweller, ran into all manner
of trouble, to the point that one of the first things I did in a new apartment, was to turn the power off and opened all electric boxes,
and straighten out the "carpenter wiring", much of this being
dangerous.
War Story One: In the 1970s in Washington, DC, my boss was having considerable problems with the lights in his newish house in the
suburbs. For instance, when he turned one light on, an unrelated
light would go off. I said it sounded like some kind of grounding
problem. Eventually he invited me to dinner in his house, and bring
your voltmeter. Which I did. It turned out that the solid copper
wires at every electrical device (wall switch, outlet, light, et al)
were loose - the electrician (or his assistant had forgotten to
tighten all the terminal screws down. (Stranded wire was not used
then.) So boss called the builder to have all those neglected
terminal screws tightened properly. He was lucky that there wasn't a
fire.
War Story Two. Ten years later, in Baltimore, MD, some friends
complained that their kitchen light (in the center of the ceiling)
flickered, and mentioned that when they used the sink in the washroom
off the kitchen, sparks fell from underneath that sink. I didn't
believe them at first, but they persisted. It turned out that the
building (which was quite old) still had some old knob-and-tube
wiring. The plumbers had recently replaced the drain pipe from the
bathroom above the washroom with a new copper pipe, and had barged
through the existing knob-and-tube wiring, breaking the return path,
but accidentally making the drain pipe live. The current made it from
the copper drain pipe to the existing cast iron drain through the
hardware on the washroom sink. Stopgap was to firmly ground the drain
pipe. I assume the owner of the building had words with the plumber,
and got an electrician. Anyway, nobody was hurt, and nothing burnt
down.
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Joe Gwinn
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that
common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then
you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders.
In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed.
I think that the 99+ percent is quite optimistic, especially on older buildings. Back when I was an apartment-dweller, ran into all manner
of trouble, to the point that one of the first things I did in a new apartment, was to turn the power off and opened all electric boxes,
and straighten out the "carpenter wiring", much of this being
dangerous.
War Story One: In the 1970s in Washington, DC, my boss was having considerable problems with the lights in his newish house in the
suburbs. For instance, when he turned one light on, an unrelated
light would go off. I said it sounded like some kind of grounding
problem. Eventually he invited me to dinner in his house, and bring
your voltmeter. Which I did. It turned out that the solid copper
wires at every electrical device (wall switch, outlet, light, et al)
were loose - the electrician (or his assistant had forgotten to
tighten all the terminal screws down. (Stranded wire was not used
then.) So boss called the builder to have all those neglected
terminal screws tightened properly. He was lucky that there wasn't a
fire.
War Story Two. Ten years later, in Baltimore, MD, some friends
complained that their kitchen light (in the center of the ceiling)
flickered, and mentioned that when they used the sink in the washroom
off the kitchen, sparks fell from underneath that sink. I didn't
believe them at first, but they persisted. It turned out that the
building (which was quite old) still had some old knob-and-tube
wiring. The plumbers had recently replaced the drain pipe from the
bathroom above the washroom with a new copper pipe, and had barged
through the existing knob-and-tube wiring, breaking the return path,
but accidentally making the drain pipe live. The current made it from
the copper drain pipe to the existing cast iron drain through the
hardware on the washroom sink. Stopgap was to firmly ground the drain
pipe. I assume the owner of the building had words with the plumber,
and got an electrician. Anyway, nobody was hurt, and nothing burnt
down.
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Joe Gwinn
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that
common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring>
On 2024-12-02 22:17, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>> wrote:
...
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then >>> you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders.
In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed.
I think that the 99+ percent is quite optimistic, especially on older
buildings. Back when I was an apartment-dweller, ran into all manner
of trouble, to the point that one of the first things I did in a new
apartment, was to turn the power off and opened all electric boxes,
and straighten out the "carpenter wiring", much of this being
dangerous.
War Story One: In the 1970s in Washington, DC, my boss was having
considerable problems with the lights in his newish house in the
suburbs. For instance, when he turned one light on, an unrelated
light would go off. I said it sounded like some kind of grounding
problem. Eventually he invited me to dinner in his house, and bring
your voltmeter. Which I did. It turned out that the solid copper
wires at every electrical device (wall switch, outlet, light, et al)
were loose - the electrician (or his assistant had forgotten to
tighten all the terminal screws down. (Stranded wire was not used
then.) So boss called the builder to have all those neglected
terminal screws tightened properly. He was lucky that there wasn't a
fire.
War Story Two. Ten years later, in Baltimore, MD, some friends
complained that their kitchen light (in the center of the ceiling)
flickered, and mentioned that when they used the sink in the washroom
off the kitchen, sparks fell from underneath that sink. I didn't
believe them at first, but they persisted. It turned out that the
building (which was quite old) still had some old knob-and-tube
wiring. The plumbers had recently replaced the drain pipe from the
bathroom above the washroom with a new copper pipe, and had barged
through the existing knob-and-tube wiring, breaking the return path,
but accidentally making the drain pipe live. The current made it from
the copper drain pipe to the existing cast iron drain through the
hardware on the washroom sink. Stopgap was to firmly ground the drain
pipe. I assume the owner of the building had words with the plumber,
and got an electrician. Anyway, nobody was hurt, and nothing burnt
down.
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Not a dangerous one.
The lights in the garden in my father's beach place were connected, the >neutral to one current limiter, the live to another one. The result was >weird: the residual-current device (RCD or RCCB or GFCI) of the house
(here the entire house must be protected by one) triggered at half past
six in the morning, every morning.
The electrician was baffled. He found out that the station switched the >transformer one notch at that hour, but why would that cause the GFCI to >trigger nobody could imagine. Finally he found the crossover, and the
thing stopped happening.
On that same place, a cable entered a certain tube with one colour and
exited a different colour.
Turned out that the installation had been done by three different >electricians, each not knowing what the previous one intended or did.
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that
common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring>
Oh! I had seen the article time ago, I had forgotten.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:40:13 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/2/24 1:17 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:I think that the 99+ percent is quite optimistic, especially on older
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120 >>>>>>> volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then, >>>>>>> no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as >>>>>> Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the >>>>>> part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new
isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was
bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more >>>>> realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe >>>>> things are plugged in.
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then >>>> you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders. >>>> In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed. >>>
buildings. Back when I was an apartment-dweller, ran into all manner
of trouble, to the point that one of the first things I did in a new
apartment, was to turn the power off and opened all electric boxes,
and straighten out the "carpenter wiring", much of this being
dangerous.
Not too optimistic, I think. The home inspector we used was a seasoned
guy and he said outlets where line and neutral are reversed were very
rare. He made it a habit of testing them all.
War Story One: In the 1970s in Washington, DC, my boss was having
considerable problems with the lights in his newish house in the
suburbs. For instance, when he turned one light on, an unrelated
light would go off. I said it sounded like some kind of grounding
problem. Eventually he invited me to dinner in his house, and bring
your voltmeter. Which I did. It turned out that the solid copper
wires at every electrical device (wall switch, outlet, light, et al)
were loose - the electrician (or his assistant had forgotten to
tighten all the terminal screws down. (Stranded wire was not used
then.) So boss called the builder to have all those neglected
terminal screws tightened properly. He was lucky that there wasn't a
fire.
That's a serious blunder by a contractor.
It certainly was, but if the house had burned down, good luck figuring
out why from inspection of the ashes.
There is an electrical inspector whose approval is required before the
house can be occupied, but they do not generally test that the screws
are tight.
What probably happened is that the electrician had an apprentice, and
so the electrician does the hooking up and the apprentice checks that
it's correct (and thus learns) and does the final tightening. They
somehow got distracted, and the last step never happened.
In Germany we had mandatory
road-worthiness checks for cars every two years. I think they still do.
The inspector came up from underneath my dad's car with a pale face.
"Sir, come down here, you've got to see this". The four connector bolts
of a universal joint in the steering column were in there alright but
the mechanic had forgotten to put any of the nuts on them, let alone
tighten anything. They were just rattling around in their holes without
nuts. My dad was one of the guys who floored it on autobahns, 120mph and
more. That could have resulted in a horrific accident.
Good lord. That would have killed many people.
War Story Two. Ten years later, in Baltimore, MD, some friends
complained that their kitchen light (in the center of the ceiling)
flickered, and mentioned that when they used the sink in the washroom
off the kitchen, sparks fell from underneath that sink. I didn't
believe them at first, but they persisted. It turned out that the
building (which was quite old) still had some old knob-and-tube
wiring. The plumbers had recently replaced the drain pipe from the
bathroom above the washroom with a new copper pipe, and had barged
through the existing knob-and-tube wiring, breaking the return path,
but accidentally making the drain pipe live. The current made it from
the copper drain pipe to the existing cast iron drain through the
hardware on the washroom sink. Stopgap was to firmly ground the drain
pipe. I assume the owner of the building had words with the plumber,
and got an electrician. Anyway, nobody was hurt, and nothing burnt
down.
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Over there it's often willful neglect. I sat at a pcinic table of a
campground in Italy, having some wine with the owner. The lights
flickered and a loud phzzzzt was heard, sparks flew. The overhead cable
to the freezer at the (very far away) end of that line was arcing. "I
think we should turn this off and run an extension cord" ... "Nah,
happens a lot, it'll hang on for a while. I'll fix this tomorrow. Or the
day after".
Yes, very often exactly that. I have similar stories.
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that
common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
Yes but unfortunately most of them contain just a screw and not a
pressure plate. You are supposed to use ferrules on stranded wire but
hardly anyone does.
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and
clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
On 12/2/24 1:17 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>> wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120 >>>>>> volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then, >>>>>> no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as >>>>> Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the >>>>> part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new
isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was
bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more
realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe >>>> things are plugged in.
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then >>> you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders.
In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed.
I think that the 99+ percent is quite optimistic, especially on older
buildings. Back when I was an apartment-dweller, ran into all manner
of trouble, to the point that one of the first things I did in a new
apartment, was to turn the power off and opened all electric boxes,
and straighten out the "carpenter wiring", much of this being
dangerous.
Not too optimistic, I think. The home inspector we used was a seasoned
guy and he said outlets where line and neutral are reversed were very
rare. He made it a habit of testing them all.
War Story One: In the 1970s in Washington, DC, my boss was having
considerable problems with the lights in his newish house in the
suburbs. For instance, when he turned one light on, an unrelated
light would go off. I said it sounded like some kind of grounding
problem. Eventually he invited me to dinner in his house, and bring
your voltmeter. Which I did. It turned out that the solid copper
wires at every electrical device (wall switch, outlet, light, et al)
were loose - the electrician (or his assistant had forgotten to
tighten all the terminal screws down. (Stranded wire was not used
then.) So boss called the builder to have all those neglected
terminal screws tightened properly. He was lucky that there wasn't a
fire.
That's a serious blunder by a contractor.
In Germany we had mandatory
road-worthiness checks for cars every two years. I think they still do.
The inspector came up from underneath my dad's car with a pale face.
"Sir, come down here, you've got to see this". The four connector bolts
of a universal joint in the steering column were in there alright but
the mechanic had forgotten to put any of the nuts on them, let alone
tighten anything. They were just rattling around in their holes without
nuts. My dad was one of the guys who floored it on autobahns, 120mph and >more. That could have resulted in a horrific accident.
War Story Two. Ten years later, in Baltimore, MD, some friends
complained that their kitchen light (in the center of the ceiling)
flickered, and mentioned that when they used the sink in the washroom
off the kitchen, sparks fell from underneath that sink. I didn't
believe them at first, but they persisted. It turned out that the
building (which was quite old) still had some old knob-and-tube
wiring. The plumbers had recently replaced the drain pipe from the
bathroom above the washroom with a new copper pipe, and had barged
through the existing knob-and-tube wiring, breaking the return path,
but accidentally making the drain pipe live. The current made it from
the copper drain pipe to the existing cast iron drain through the
hardware on the washroom sink. Stopgap was to firmly ground the drain
pipe. I assume the owner of the building had words with the plumber,
and got an electrician. Anyway, nobody was hurt, and nothing burnt
down.
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Over there it's often willful neglect. I sat at a pcinic table of a >campground in Italy, having some wine with the owner. The lights
flickered and a loud phzzzzt was heard, sparks flew. The overhead cable
to the freezer at the (very far away) end of that line was arcing. "I
think we should turn this off and run an extension cord" ... "Nah,
happens a lot, it'll hang on for a while. I'll fix this tomorrow. Or the
day after".
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that
common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
Yes but unfortunately most of them contain just a screw and not a
pressure plate. You are supposed to use ferrules on stranded wire but
hardly anyone does.
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:40:13 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/2/24 1:17 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:I think that the 99+ percent is quite optimistic, especially on older
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>> wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120 >>>>>>>> volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then, >>>>>>>> no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as >>>>>>> Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the
part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new >>>>>> isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was >>>>>> bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more >>>>>> realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe >>>>>> things are plugged in.
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then >>>>> you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders. >>>>> In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed. >>>>
buildings. Back when I was an apartment-dweller, ran into all manner
of trouble, to the point that one of the first things I did in a new
apartment, was to turn the power off and opened all electric boxes,
and straighten out the "carpenter wiring", much of this being
dangerous.
Not too optimistic, I think. The home inspector we used was a seasoned
guy and he said outlets where line and neutral are reversed were very
rare. He made it a habit of testing them all.
War Story One: In the 1970s in Washington, DC, my boss was having
considerable problems with the lights in his newish house in the
suburbs. For instance, when he turned one light on, an unrelated
light would go off. I said it sounded like some kind of grounding
problem. Eventually he invited me to dinner in his house, and bring
your voltmeter. Which I did. It turned out that the solid copper
wires at every electrical device (wall switch, outlet, light, et al)
were loose - the electrician (or his assistant had forgotten to
tighten all the terminal screws down. (Stranded wire was not used
then.) So boss called the builder to have all those neglected
terminal screws tightened properly. He was lucky that there wasn't a
fire.
That's a serious blunder by a contractor.
It certainly was, but if the house had burned down, good luck figuring
out why from inspection of the ashes.
There is an electrical inspector whose approval is required before the
house can be occupied, but they do not generally test that the screws
are tight.
What probably happened is that the electrician had an apprentice, and
so the electrician does the hooking up and the apprentice checks that
it's correct (and thus learns) and does the final tightening. They
somehow got distracted, and the last step never happened.
In Germany we had mandatory
road-worthiness checks for cars every two years. I think they still do.
The inspector came up from underneath my dad's car with a pale face.
"Sir, come down here, you've got to see this". The four connector bolts
of a universal joint in the steering column were in there alright but
the mechanic had forgotten to put any of the nuts on them, let alone
tighten anything. They were just rattling around in their holes without
nuts. My dad was one of the guys who floored it on autobahns, 120mph and >>> more. That could have resulted in a horrific accident.
Good lord. That would have killed many people.
War Story Two. Ten years later, in Baltimore, MD, some friends
complained that their kitchen light (in the center of the ceiling)
flickered, and mentioned that when they used the sink in the washroom
off the kitchen, sparks fell from underneath that sink. I didn't
believe them at first, but they persisted. It turned out that the
building (which was quite old) still had some old knob-and-tube
wiring. The plumbers had recently replaced the drain pipe from the
bathroom above the washroom with a new copper pipe, and had barged
through the existing knob-and-tube wiring, breaking the return path,
but accidentally making the drain pipe live. The current made it from >>>> the copper drain pipe to the existing cast iron drain through the
hardware on the washroom sink. Stopgap was to firmly ground the drain >>>> pipe. I assume the owner of the building had words with the plumber,
and got an electrician. Anyway, nobody was hurt, and nothing burnt
down.
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Over there it's often willful neglect. I sat at a pcinic table of a
campground in Italy, having some wine with the owner. The lights
flickered and a loud phzzzzt was heard, sparks flew. The overhead cable
to the freezer at the (very far away) end of that line was arcing. "I
think we should turn this off and run an extension cord" ... "Nah,
happens a lot, it'll hang on for a while. I'll fix this tomorrow. Or the >>> day after".
Yes, very often exactly that. I have similar stories.
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that >>>> common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
Yes but unfortunately most of them contain just a screw and not a
pressure plate. You are supposed to use ferrules on stranded wire but
hardly anyone does.
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and
clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
Electrical codes contain a lot of non-obvious and very expensive wisdom.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 22:44:53 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-12-02 22:17, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote:
...
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Not a dangerous one.
The lights in the garden in my father's beach place were connected, the
neutral to one current limiter, the live to another one. The result was
weird: the residual-current device (RCD or RCCB or GFCI) of the house
(here the entire house must be protected by one) triggered at half past
six in the morning, every morning.
The electrician was baffled. He found out that the station switched the
transformer one notch at that hour, but why would that cause the GFCI to
trigger nobody could imagine. Finally he found the crossover, and the
thing stopped happening.
Crossover?
On that same place, a cable entered a certain tube with one colour and
exited a different colour.
So there was an inline splice, which is forbidden here. All splices
must be accessible for repair.
There was a You-Tube couple in Kiev, Ukraine that made a good income
showing their home-improvement and boat-building stories and methods,
up until when the Russians invaded in 2022. Anyway, the guy did his
own electrical work, and happily made connections buried in walls, his
trick being that he arc welded the copper wires being connected - this connection was not going to fail at any current level that didn't melt
the wires as well, so what difference could it make? I see his point,
but the US electrical safety authorities probably would not.
Turned out that the installation had been done by three different
electricians, each not knowing what the previous one intended or did.
Yeah. That kind of problem is at the root cause of many bad
accidents.
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that
common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring>
Oh! I had seen the article time ago, I had forgotten.
I don't miss those days.
I have many Baltimore and Washington, DC, stories, where there are
lots of transient tenants and skinflint to rapacious landlords.
And a few good landlords. One of may many apartments had a new
landlord with a building that was overrun with cockroaches. We
complained to no avail. One day I caught an immense cockroach (50mm
long) and brought it to the landlord (a lawyer), who was working on
something nearby. His eyes widened - he had never seen one *that* big
- and stammered that I had certainly brought the evidence. He said
that he had an exterminator on contract. I pointed out that there is
no way that critter could have gotten so big if the exterminator was
doing his job, even sporadically. He allowed that this was true. Next
week, the apartment building smelled like a refinery, and there were
paper signs the exterminator had been busy. The landlord was being
cheated by the exterminator.
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then
you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders.
In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed.
I think that the 99+ percent is quite optimistic, especially on older
buildings. Back when I was an apartment-dweller, ran into all manner
of trouble, to the point that one of the first things I did in a new apartment, was to turn the power off and opened all electric boxes,
and straighten out the "carpenter wiring", much of this being
dangerous.
War Story One: In the 1970s in Washington, DC, my boss was having considerable problems with the lights in his newish house in the
suburbs. For instance, when he turned one light on, an unrelated
light would go off. I said it sounded like some kind of grounding
problem. Eventually he invited me to dinner in his house, and bring
your voltmeter. Which I did. It turned out that the solid copper
wires at every electrical device (wall switch, outlet, light, et al)
were loose - the electrician (or his assistant had forgotten to
tighten all the terminal screws down. (Stranded wire was not used
then.) So boss called the builder to have all those neglected
terminal screws tightened properly. He was lucky that there wasn't a
fire.
The electrician was baffled. He found out that the station switched the transformer one notch at that hour, but why would that cause the GFCI to trigger nobody could imagine. Finally he found the crossover, and the thing stopped happening.
On that same place, a cable entered a certain tube with one colour and exited a
different colour.
Turned out that the installation had been done by three different electricians,
each not knowing what the previous one intended or did.
MythTV is very powerful, but in the past I had trouble making Digital TV >>> cards work with Linux
The SD offerings are stand-alone boxes; typically two (optimized now, to one)
antenna/cable input and a network connection. (I think once you get above >> 4? tuners, they add network interfaces just because HD content -- for multiple
concurrent broadcasts -- can quickly consume bandwidth of a single interface)
I will have to see if they sell here. The transmission protocols are different.
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:40:13 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/2/24 1:17 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:I think that the 99+ percent is quite optimistic, especially on older
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>> wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120 >>>>>>>> volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then, >>>>>>>> no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as >>>>>>> Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the
part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new >>>>>> isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was >>>>>> bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more >>>>>> realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe >>>>>> things are plugged in.
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then >>>>> you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders. >>>>> In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed. >>>>
buildings. Back when I was an apartment-dweller, ran into all manner
of trouble, to the point that one of the first things I did in a new
apartment, was to turn the power off and opened all electric boxes,
and straighten out the "carpenter wiring", much of this being
dangerous.
Not too optimistic, I think. The home inspector we used was a seasoned
guy and he said outlets where line and neutral are reversed were very
rare. He made it a habit of testing them all.
War Story One: In the 1970s in Washington, DC, my boss was having
considerable problems with the lights in his newish house in the
suburbs. For instance, when he turned one light on, an unrelated
light would go off. I said it sounded like some kind of grounding
problem. Eventually he invited me to dinner in his house, and bring
your voltmeter. Which I did. It turned out that the solid copper
wires at every electrical device (wall switch, outlet, light, et al)
were loose - the electrician (or his assistant had forgotten to
tighten all the terminal screws down. (Stranded wire was not used
then.) So boss called the builder to have all those neglected
terminal screws tightened properly. He was lucky that there wasn't a
fire.
That's a serious blunder by a contractor.
It certainly was, but if the house had burned down, good luck figuring
out why from inspection of the ashes.
There is an electrical inspector whose approval is required before the
house can be occupied, but they do not generally test that the screws
are tight.
What probably happened is that the electrician had an apprentice, and
so the electrician does the hooking up and the apprentice checks that
it's correct (and thus learns) and does the final tightening. They
somehow got distracted, and the last step never happened.
In Germany we had mandatory
road-worthiness checks for cars every two years. I think they still do.
The inspector came up from underneath my dad's car with a pale face.
"Sir, come down here, you've got to see this". The four connector bolts
of a universal joint in the steering column were in there alright but
the mechanic had forgotten to put any of the nuts on them, let alone
tighten anything. They were just rattling around in their holes without
nuts. My dad was one of the guys who floored it on autobahns, 120mph and >>> more. That could have resulted in a horrific accident.
Good lord. That would have killed many people.
War Story Two. Ten years later, in Baltimore, MD, some friends
complained that their kitchen light (in the center of the ceiling)
flickered, and mentioned that when they used the sink in the washroom
off the kitchen, sparks fell from underneath that sink. I didn't
believe them at first, but they persisted. It turned out that the
building (which was quite old) still had some old knob-and-tube
wiring. The plumbers had recently replaced the drain pipe from the
bathroom above the washroom with a new copper pipe, and had barged
through the existing knob-and-tube wiring, breaking the return path,
but accidentally making the drain pipe live. The current made it from >>>> the copper drain pipe to the existing cast iron drain through the
hardware on the washroom sink. Stopgap was to firmly ground the drain >>>> pipe. I assume the owner of the building had words with the plumber,
and got an electrician. Anyway, nobody was hurt, and nothing burnt
down.
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Over there it's often willful neglect. I sat at a pcinic table of a
campground in Italy, having some wine with the owner. The lights
flickered and a loud phzzzzt was heard, sparks flew. The overhead cable
to the freezer at the (very far away) end of that line was arcing. "I
think we should turn this off and run an extension cord" ... "Nah,
happens a lot, it'll hang on for a while. I'll fix this tomorrow. Or the >>> day after".
Yes, very often exactly that. I have similar stories.
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that >>>> common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
Yes but unfortunately most of them contain just a screw and not a
pressure plate. You are supposed to use ferrules on stranded wire but
hardly anyone does.
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and
clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
Electrical codes contain a lot of non-obvious and very expensive wisdom.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and
clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
On 2024-12-03 00:20, Joe Gwinn wrote:
.....
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and
clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
DON'T! The tin will flow slowly under pressure, and loose the connection.
It was a common habit in the Netherlands until forbidden. With a reason.
Unless of course you mean you have a clamp with a spring that will adjust?
Arie
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
On 12/2/2024 2:07 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
MythTV is very powerful, but in the past I had trouble making
Digital TV cards work with Linux
The SD offerings are stand-alone boxes; typically two (optimized
now, to one) antenna/cable input and a network connection. (I
think once you get above 4? tuners, they add network interfaces
just because HD content -- for multiple concurrent broadcasts --
can quickly consume bandwidth of a single interface)
I will have to see if they sell here. The transmission protocols are
different.
<shrug> No idea. I treat THAT technology much like people treat automobiles:
"What do I have to do to MAKE IT GO?"
MythTV, OTOH, is a big mess. Typical of FOSS offerings where no one sat down
to DESIGN the product but, rather, opted to have scores of "settings" (and boasting that it maximizes flexibility!) so that the user -- EACH user
-- ends
up having to make decisions that the developers avoided. <frown>
Thankfully, the "box" we have has already baked ITS notions into its
design so, as long as we can live with those assumptions, its a great solution!
On 12/3/2024 4:10 AM, Arie de Muijnck wrote:
On 2024-12-03 00:20, Joe Gwinn wrote:
.....
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and
clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
DON'T! The tin will flow slowly under pressure, and loose the connection.
It was a common habit in the Netherlands until forbidden. With a reason.
+1
We had been commissioned to build a test set for an IBM division.
We "went the extra mile" and tinned the stranded wire before securing
under screws.
Their inspector came in and "failed" every such connection
In hindsight, it made perfect sense.
Unless of course you mean you have a clamp with a spring that will
adjust?
On 12/2/2024 2:44 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
The electrician was baffled. He found out that the station switched
the transformer one notch at that hour, but why would that cause the
GFCI to trigger nobody could imagine. Finally he found the crossover,
and the thing stopped happening.
GFCIs are touchy. When someone complains of a failing GFCI, I immediately tell them to recheck ALL of the connections as this tends to cause
"false" trips.
On that same place, a cable entered a certain tube with one colour and
exited a different colour.
Turned out that the installation had been done by three different
electricians, each not knowing what the previous one intended or did.
Here, any "splice" has to be done in a junction box. And, all junction boxes must be accessible. So, the wire entering a conduit at one end
WILL be the wire exiting at the other.
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 23:54:27 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 13:40:13 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/2/24 1:17 PM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:I think that the 99+ percent is quite optimistic, especially on older >>>>> buildings. Back when I was an apartment-dweller, ran into all manner >>>>> of trouble, to the point that one of the first things I did in a new >>>>> apartment, was to turn the power off and opened all electric boxes,
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
On 11/26/24 6:53 PM, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120 >>>>>>>>> volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then, >>>>>>>>> no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Twice the line voltage makes a difference. Also, some countries such as
Germany have non-polarized wall outlets which was a clear mistake on the
part of the standards guys. Think toasters and forks.
We have polarized line plugs in the US, but the wiring old and new >>>>>>> isn't consistent, or becomes so over time. And so people often
intentionally defeat the polarization.
Part of the problem is that for many small appliances, the plug was >>>>>>> bigger than the appliance. Probably more expensive too.
Anyway, my instinct is that not polarizing plugs and sockets is more >>>>>>> realistic, as it forces manufacturers to pass safety regardless of hoe >>>>>>> things are plugged in.
Polarization can save the day with toasters and similar appliances. Then >>>>>> you can make sure that neutral comes in at the top end of the meanders. >>>>>> In the US, 99+ percent of cases will not have line and neutral reversed. >>>>>
and straighten out the "carpenter wiring", much of this being
dangerous.
Not too optimistic, I think. The home inspector we used was a seasoned >>>> guy and he said outlets where line and neutral are reversed were very
rare. He made it a habit of testing them all.
War Story One: In the 1970s in Washington, DC, my boss was having
considerable problems with the lights in his newish house in the
suburbs. For instance, when he turned one light on, an unrelated
light would go off. I said it sounded like some kind of grounding
problem. Eventually he invited me to dinner in his house, and bring >>>>> your voltmeter. Which I did. It turned out that the solid copper
wires at every electrical device (wall switch, outlet, light, et al) >>>>> were loose - the electrician (or his assistant had forgotten to
tighten all the terminal screws down. (Stranded wire was not used
then.) So boss called the builder to have all those neglected
terminal screws tightened properly. He was lucky that there wasn't a >>>>> fire.
That's a serious blunder by a contractor.
It certainly was, but if the house had burned down, good luck figuring
out why from inspection of the ashes.
There is an electrical inspector whose approval is required before the
house can be occupied, but they do not generally test that the screws
are tight.
What probably happened is that the electrician had an apprentice, and
so the electrician does the hooking up and the apprentice checks that
it's correct (and thus learns) and does the final tightening. They
somehow got distracted, and the last step never happened.
In Germany we had mandatory
road-worthiness checks for cars every two years. I think they still do. >>>> The inspector came up from underneath my dad's car with a pale face.
"Sir, come down here, you've got to see this". The four connector bolts >>>> of a universal joint in the steering column were in there alright but
the mechanic had forgotten to put any of the nuts on them, let alone
tighten anything. They were just rattling around in their holes without >>>> nuts. My dad was one of the guys who floored it on autobahns, 120mph and >>>> more. That could have resulted in a horrific accident.
Good lord. That would have killed many people.
War Story Two. Ten years later, in Baltimore, MD, some friends
complained that their kitchen light (in the center of the ceiling)
flickered, and mentioned that when they used the sink in the washroom >>>>> off the kitchen, sparks fell from underneath that sink. I didn't
believe them at first, but they persisted. It turned out that the
building (which was quite old) still had some old knob-and-tube
wiring. The plumbers had recently replaced the drain pipe from the
bathroom above the washroom with a new copper pipe, and had barged
through the existing knob-and-tube wiring, breaking the return path, >>>>> but accidentally making the drain pipe live. The current made it from >>>>> the copper drain pipe to the existing cast iron drain through the
hardware on the washroom sink. Stopgap was to firmly ground the drain >>>>> pipe. I assume the owner of the building had words with the plumber, >>>>> and got an electrician. Anyway, nobody was hurt, and nothing burnt
down.
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Over there it's often willful neglect. I sat at a pcinic table of a
campground in Italy, having some wine with the owner. The lights
flickered and a loud phzzzzt was heard, sparks flew. The overhead cable >>>> to the freezer at the (very far away) end of that line was arcing. "I
think we should turn this off and run an extension cord" ... "Nah,
happens a lot, it'll hang on for a while. I'll fix this tomorrow. Or the >>>> day after".
Yes, very often exactly that. I have similar stories.
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that >>>>> common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
Yes but unfortunately most of them contain just a screw and not a
pressure plate. You are supposed to use ferrules on stranded wire but
hardly anyone does.
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and
clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
Electrical codes contain a lot of non-obvious and very expensive wisdom.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
I've asked a few electricians if they have read the building codes.
None have.
On 2024-12-03 00:09, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 22:44:53 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-12-02 22:17, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>> wrote:
...
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Not a dangerous one.
The lights in the garden in my father's beach place were connected, the
neutral to one current limiter, the live to another one. The result was
weird: the residual-current device (RCD or RCCB or GFCI) of the house
(here the entire house must be protected by one) triggered at half past
six in the morning, every morning.
The electrician was baffled. He found out that the station switched the
transformer one notch at that hour, but why would that cause the GFCI to >>> trigger nobody could imagine. Finally he found the crossover, and the
thing stopped happening.
Crossover?
I don't know how to call it. He found that the live was coming from one >circuit breaker, and the neutral from another.
Of course, everything
worked, the lamps were connected to the neutral and the live, continuity >tests say "right", but... two breakers. And the GFCI reacted, somehow.
On that same place, a cable entered a certain tube with one colour and
exited a different colour.
So there was an inline splice, which is forbidden here. All splices
must be accessible for repair.
It is forbidden here too!
Not only that, but the same cable was one colour on one end, and a
different colour on the other end, so impossible to trace the cables
from junction to junction box. The electrician that found this out was >astonished. I guess he wasted days figuring out what was going on.
If the guy had used cables of the same colour, nobody would have noticed.
There was a You-Tube couple in Kiev, Ukraine that made a good income
showing their home-improvement and boat-building stories and methods,
up until when the Russians invaded in 2022. Anyway, the guy did his
own electrical work, and happily made connections buried in walls, his
trick being that he arc welded the copper wires being connected - this
connection was not going to fail at any current level that didn't melt
the wires as well, so what difference could it make? I see his point,
but the US electrical safety authorities probably would not.
The house I am living at, has some cables directly embedded in the
mortar. This is forbidden, but wasn't at the time. The correct procedure
now is to place plastic tubing inside the walls and the mortar, and then >drive the cables inside the tubing. The cables can be replaced when needed.
Turned out that the installation had been done by three different
electricians, each not knowing what the previous one intended or did.
Yeah. That kind of problem is at the root cause of many bad
accidents.
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that >>>> common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring>
Oh! I had seen the article time ago, I had forgotten.
I don't miss those days.
I have many Baltimore and Washington, DC, stories, where there are
lots of transient tenants and skinflint to rapacious landlords.
And a few good landlords. One of my many apartments had a new
landlord with a building that was overrun with cockroaches. We
complained to no avail. One day I caught an immense cockroach (50mm
long) and brought it to the landlord (a lawyer), who was working on
something nearby. His eyes widened - he had never seen one *that* big
- and stammered that I had certainly brought the evidence. He said
that he had an exterminator on contract. I pointed out that there is
no way that critter could have gotten so big if the exterminator was
doing his job, even sporadically. He allowed that this was true. Next
week, the apartment building smelled like a refinery, and there were
paper signs the exterminator had been busy. The landlord was being
cheated by the exterminator.
Ah...
On 2024-12-03 00:20, Joe Gwinn wrote:
.....
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and
clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
DON'T! The tin will flow slowly under pressure, and loose the connection.
It was a common habit in the Netherlands until forbidden. With a reason.
Unless of course you mean you have a clamp with a spring that will adjust?
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 02:42:37 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-12-03 00:09, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 22:44:53 +0100, "Carlos E.R."
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2024-12-02 22:17, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Mon, 2 Dec 2024 11:35:41 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>> wrote:
On 12/1/24 9:59 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:24:11 -0800, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com> >>>>>>> wrote:
...
I have many such stories, but this will do for now.
And I bet that Europe also has its heart-stopping stories.
Not a dangerous one.
The lights in the garden in my father's beach place were connected, the >>>> neutral to one current limiter, the live to another one. The result was >>>> weird: the residual-current device (RCD or RCCB or GFCI) of the house
(here the entire house must be protected by one) triggered at half past >>>> six in the morning, every morning.
The electrician was baffled. He found out that the station switched the >>>> transformer one notch at that hour, but why would that cause the GFCI to >>>> trigger nobody could imagine. Finally he found the crossover, and the
thing stopped happening.
Crossover?
I don't know how to call it. He found that the live was coming from one
circuit breaker, and the neutral from another.
We would say that the wires were crossed or swapped.
Of course, everything
worked, the lamps were connected to the neutral and the live, continuity
tests say "right", but... two breakers. And the GFCI reacted, somehow.
A GFCI breaker senses the difference in currents carried by hot and
neutral wires. If no leakage, the difference is zero, so the
difference is the leakage. If this leakage exceeds a few milliamps
for maybe a second or two, pop.
The two GFCI breakers each see a very large unbalance, the full
current in that straddling circuit.
On that same place, a cable entered a certain tube with one colour and >>>> exited a different colour.
So there was an inline splice, which is forbidden here. All splices
must be accessible for repair.
It is forbidden here too!
Not only that, but the same cable was one colour on one end, and a
different colour on the other end, so impossible to trace the cables
from junction to junction box. The electrician that found this out was
astonished. I guess he wasted days figuring out what was going on.
If the guy had used cables of the same colour, nobody would have noticed.
Thank god that he didn't.
There was a You-Tube couple in Kiev, Ukraine that made a good income
showing their home-improvement and boat-building stories and methods,
up until when the Russians invaded in 2022. Anyway, the guy did his
own electrical work, and happily made connections buried in walls, his
trick being that he arc welded the copper wires being connected - this
connection was not going to fail at any current level that didn't melt
the wires as well, so what difference could it make? I see his point,
but the US electrical safety authorities probably would not.
The house I am living at, has some cables directly embedded in the
mortar. This is forbidden, but wasn't at the time. The correct procedure
now is to place plastic tubing inside the walls and the mortar, and then
drive the cables inside the tubing. The cables can be replaced when needed.
We would say pull the cables.
Embedding a tube versus the wires is the best future-proofing one can
get. As is making the tube too big at first.
Turned out that the installation had been done by three different
electricians, each not knowing what the previous one intended or did.
Yeah. That kind of problem is at the root cause of many bad
accidents.
PS: I do prefer the Euro-style closed terminals that work for
stranded and solid wire. They are allowed in the US, but not all that >>>>> common outside of industrial sites. One big advantage is that they
take far less volume than wire-nuts and the like.
.<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knob-and-tube_wiring>
Oh! I had seen the article time ago, I had forgotten.
I don't miss those days.
I have many Baltimore and Washington, DC, stories, where there are
lots of transient tenants and skinflint to rapacious landlords.
And a few good landlords. One of my many apartments had a new
landlord with a building that was overrun with cockroaches. We
complained to no avail. One day I caught an immense cockroach (50mm
long) and brought it to the landlord (a lawyer), who was working on
something nearby. His eyes widened - he had never seen one *that* big
- and stammered that I had certainly brought the evidence. He said
that he had an exterminator on contract. I pointed out that there is
no way that critter could have gotten so big if the exterminator was
doing his job, even sporadically. He allowed that this was true. Next
week, the apartment building smelled like a refinery, and there were
paper signs the exterminator had been busy. The landlord was being
cheated by the exterminator.
Ah...
I have a non-electrical war story, also from 1970s Washington,
different apartment: One Sunday evening I made myself dinner, and
while cleaning up, the kitchen sink faucet, classic single-handle
design of some kind, and the hot would not shut off, instead roaring
at full volume. Far too loud to ignore and call the landlord in the
morning, so I took it apart. Whereupon I found a 6" (150mm) long
straight piece of steel coat hangar wire. Removed it and put the
valve back together, which now worked correctly. But I could not
imagine how such a long wire could get there, as it could not turn the corners in the pipes leading to the valve. So I took the other valve
apart. And found another 6" length of steel wire. Removed it. This
was carefully crafted sabotage, intended to generate repeat emergency repairs. My then landlord was himself a thief, so I never told him -
they deserved one another.
Joe Gwinn
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
Electrical codes contain a lot of non-obvious and very expensive wisdom.+1 (many times over)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
GFCIs are touchy. When someone complains of a failing GFCI, I immediately >> tell them to recheck ALL of the connections as this tends to cause
"false" trips.
Yep.
Also things like computers do have a constant small leak. Or mains filters.
On that same place, a cable entered a certain tube with one colour and
exited a different colour.
Turned out that the installation had been done by three different
electricians, each not knowing what the previous one intended or did.
Here, any "splice" has to be done in a junction box. And, all junction
boxes must be accessible. So, the wire entering a conduit at one end
WILL be the wire exiting at the other.
Here too, of course.
MythTV, OTOH, is a big mess. Typical of FOSS offerings where no one sat down
to DESIGN the product but, rather, opted to have scores of "settings" (and >> boasting that it maximizes flexibility!) so that the user -- EACH user -- ends
up having to make decisions that the developers avoided. <frown>
Thankfully, the "box" we have has already baked ITS notions into its
design so, as long as we can live with those assumptions, its a great
solution!
Yes, I agree that a ready made box is better; I just have not found a good enough box. I have one somewhere, but it is much worse than my old Gigaset. It
appears that good makers have abandoned this market in Europe.
On 12/3/2024 7:12 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
GFCIs are touchy. When someone complains of a failing GFCI, I
immediately
tell them to recheck ALL of the connections as this tends to cause
"false" trips.
Yep.
Also things like computers do have a constant small leak. Or mains
filters.
GFCIs are only "required" on branch circuits feeding "wet locations" and
the like.
So, bathroom outlets (but not light fixtures), in the garage, or basement
or outdoors. (IIRC, if the outlet is over 8 ft off the ground, the requirement doesn't apply. E.g., the outlet that feeds a garage door
opener is typcially on the ceiling and need not ? be protected)
Now, AFCIs are being required in living spaces (like bedrooms) but, there, the goal is to protect against fires...
On that same place, a cable entered a certain tube with one colour
and exited a different colour.
Turned out that the installation had been done by three different
electricians, each not knowing what the previous one intended or did.
Here, any "splice" has to be done in a junction box. And, all junction >>> boxes must be accessible. So, the wire entering a conduit at one end
WILL be the wire exiting at the other.
Here too, of course.
It is interesting how often one will encounter "hidden/buried" boxes,
in practice. Most often, a homeowner ignorant of the Code. Or, a "handyman" hired by said homeowner who ASSUMES the homeowner is
ignorant AND isn't going to pay to have the work inspected:Â "It's
just a small change to the existing wiring..."
A neighbor had some coach lights installed on his outdoor spa/Jacuzzi.
The lights were at eye level. In a "wet location". And, exposed to
the weather.
The LICENSED ELECTRICIAN mounted them directly to the wooden support
members;
no electrical box "behind" them (likely because he didn't want to cut
into the 6x6" timbers and felt a surface mounted box would "look tacky"?). Instead, he carefully cut away a portion of each fixture (where it abutted the mounting surface) to allow the wire to sneak out against the timber.
Then, ran ROMEX (NM) tacked to the surface of the wooden members (the
lights
being about 12 ft apart).
I happened to see it and told him that it was unsafe, not to Code, etc.
He defended the electrician (a fellow member of some charitable "service organization" to which the neighbor belonged). I didn't relent.
Eventually, he had the owner of the electrical company (the "electrician" I've been indirectly referencing) stop by the house. At which point,
he saw the work that his flunkies had done -- apologized and had them come back out to make it right.
Point being, when it comes to electrical (and practically all trades),
you can't just rely on people doing it "right".
A neighbor has an outdoor "post light" (literally, a light atop a steel
post in the middle of the yard) that is powered MAGICALLY! I.e., if
you turn off the main breaker to his house, the light remains lit.
"No thank you. I'm not going to help you solve THAT problem!"
A neighbor has an outdoor "post light" (literally, a light atop a steel
post in the middle of the yard) that is powered MAGICALLY! I.e., if you
turn off the main breaker to his house, the light remains lit.
"No thank you. I'm not going to help you solve THAT problem!"
My neighbour has a new led fixture above the street door, flood type. When
it is off, it still has some light. I guess the switch is on the neutral,
and there is a small leak.
Here there is one mandatory inspection by a licensed electrician before the
electrical company connects the house, then done.
You do the barbarics when he is gone.
When you sell the house, there may be a new inspection, at the electrical company request. I don't know the rules. On other countries, there is a periodical inspection.
We have periodical inspections for gas (kitchen and heating); but not portable stoves (with bottled butane or propane).
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 12:10:54 +0100, Arie de Muijnck <noreply@ademu.nl>
wrote:
On 2024-12-03 00:20, Joe Gwinn wrote:
.....
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and
clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
DON'T! The tin will flow slowly under pressure, and loose the connection.
It was a common habit in the Netherlands until forbidden. With a reason.
Yes, I know. Only done for small wires at low power.
My neighbour has a new led fixture above the street door, flood type.
When it is off, it still has some light. I guess the switch is on the neutral, and there is a small leak.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
[...]
My neighbour has a new led fixture above the street door, flood type.
When it is off, it still has some light. I guess the switch is on the
neutral, and there is a small leak.
If the live and neutral run directly to the fitting and there is a long branch of cable running to the switch, it could be caused by capacitive coupling between the wires in the switch branch.
In modern UK practice (probably harmonised across Europe) there has to
be an earth conductor in all fixed wiring. This is usually located
between the two power conductors and acts as a screen against capacitive coupling - but very old wiring doesn't have it and, even if it is
present, it may not have actually been connected to earth.
Multi-core wiring, which would be used with a two-switch system, only
has the earth between two of the three conductors, so there is still capacitive coupling between the other two.
On 27/11/2024 02:53, john larkin wrote:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Age-adjusted-mortality-rates-from-electrical-injuries-per-1-million-population-European_fig1_221916189
The US (0.63 PPM) is probably low partly because we have mostly 120
volt gadgets. I usually wire boxes hot, and get tickled now and then,
no big deal.
Some countries are astounding.
I managed to get stuck on UK 240 Volts back in the eighties. Picked up a
live mains piece of equipment forgetting I'd removed the access base.
It locked my arms up to my chest and I had to be switched off. Fecking
scary feeling when you realise you can't let go. Still have the scars
forty years later where the live solder pins tuned my skin to liquid!
On 12/3/24 9:16 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 12:10:54 +0100, Arie de Muijnck <noreply@ademu.nl>
wrote:
On 2024-12-03 00:20, Joe Gwinn wrote:
.....
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and >>>> clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
DON'T! The tin will flow slowly under pressure, and loose the connection. >>> It was a common habit in the Netherlands until forbidden. With a reason.
Yes, I know. Only done for small wires at low power.
If it's mains stuff the arcing can still spark a fire. I've had numerous >cases where I found signal or control wires were tinned and then
clamped, and the connections failed or became erratic. Usually after
many years.
[...]
On 12/3/24 9:16 AM, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Tue, 3 Dec 2024 12:10:54 +0100, Arie de Muijnck <noreply@ademu.nl>
wrote:
On 2024-12-03 00:20, Joe Gwinn wrote:
.....
I don't either, because the approved euro terminal strips don't
provide plates for the smaller wire sizes. I also use the euro
terminal strips inside appliances, and if I'm connecting finely
stranded wire, I tin the wire with 63-37 solder to consolidate it, and >>>> clamp that.
Joe Gwinn
DON'T! The tin will flow slowly under pressure, and loose the connection. >>> It was a common habit in the Netherlands until forbidden. With a reason.
Yes, I know. Only done for small wires at low power.
If it's mains stuff the arcing can still spark a fire. I've had numerous >cases where I found signal or control wires were tinned and then
clamped, and the connections failed or became erratic. Usually after
many years.
Measuring winding DC resistances with probes did not work - contact resistances too large and unstable.
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
[...]
Measuring winding DC resistances with probes did not work - contact
resistances too large and unstable.
Feed a constant current through the winding and then measure the
volt-drop with a pair of probes on the wires themselves, so that the >volt-drop of the terminal contact area is not included in the reading.
That is a standard four-terminal measuring technique used for low value >resistance.
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 22:25:19 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
[...]
Measuring winding DC resistances with probes did not work - contact
resistances too large and unstable.
Feed a constant current through the winding and then measure the
volt-drop with a pair of probes on the wires themselves, so that the
volt-drop of the terminal contact area is not included in the reading.
That is a standard four-terminal measuring technique used for low value
resistance.
I do have a 6.5-digit bench top digital multimeter.
The problem was that I didn't have four hands, and clip leads were too
flaky as well. All such problems were solved using the 6-bar terminal
strip.
On 2024-12-05 02:02, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Wed, 4 Dec 2024 22:25:19 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
[...]
Measuring winding DC resistances with probes did not work - contact
resistances too large and unstable.
Feed a constant current through the winding and then measure the
volt-drop with a pair of probes on the wires themselves, so that the
volt-drop of the terminal contact area is not included in the reading.
That is a standard four-terminal measuring technique used for low value
resistance.
I do have a 6.5-digit bench top digital multimeter.
The problem was that I didn't have four hands, and clip leads were too
flaky as well. All such problems were solved using the 6-bar terminal
strip.
How about using AC from a signal generator?
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