There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to the
real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years of >experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts of
brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I can
find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s) that
they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count)
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
Can someone provide me with some rough estimates of what a 1GW class
energy storage system ought to look like in terms of layout and the
number of container sized units and space required?
(or at least sanity check my guesstimate below)
Assuming that they mean 1GWh I reckon it will be about 2000T of Lithium >batteries. If each module is storage container sized and can contain
20m^2 of batteries I reckon it is about 100 units (twice that if I have
over estimated how much battery you can safely fit in a module). I
haven't been able to find any manufacturers specifications for them.
At what point in the scale up from 50MW storage units (which are quite
common in the UK) to these new Gigaparks do things get interesting?
It also strikes me that if these storage battery systems have similar >characteristics to the Lithium ion cells in my laptop they will require >complete replacement every 5 or so years if they get cycled daily.
And I presume each module needs integrated fire suppression systems to
handle thermal runaway problems. Lithium fires being notoriously
difficult for ordinary fire fighting methods to put out.
Also what additional measures will it need to tie into 400kV supergrid?
How do you even do that at 1GW using semiconductor components?
It can obviously be done since some big interconnectors are DC but how
much does that sort of hefty high voltage infrastructure cost?
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 11:40:16 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to the
real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years of
experience in BESS.
<snip>
I've seen Noddies totting up their combined years and calling that 'experience'.
It's not a straight-out lie, but it ain't the truth.
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to the
real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years of >experience in BESS.
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to the
real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years of experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts of
brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I can
find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s) that
they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count)
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
Can someone provide me with some rough estimates of what a 1GW class
energy storage system ought to look like in terms of layout and the
number of container sized units and space required?
(or at least sanity check my guesstimate below)
Assuming that they mean 1GWh I reckon it will be about 2000T of Lithium batteries. If each module is storage container sized and can contain
20m^2 of batteries I reckon it is about 100 units (twice that if I have
over estimated how much battery you can safely fit in a module). I
haven't been able to find any manufacturers specifications for them.
On 11/24/24 12:40, Martin Brown wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to
the real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years
of experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts
of brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I
can find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s)
that they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count)
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
Can someone provide me with some rough estimates of what a 1GW class
energy storage system ought to look like in terms of layout and the
number of container sized units and space required?
(or at least sanity check my guesstimate below)
Assuming that they mean 1GWh I reckon it will be about 2000T of
Lithium batteries. If each module is storage container sized and can
contain 20m^2 of batteries I reckon it is about 100 units (twice that
if I have over estimated how much battery you can safely fit in a
module). I haven't been able to find any manufacturers specifications
for them.
It makes no sense to build large concentrated battery storage
facilities. Such installations should be distributed.
Natpower seems to consist of only directors and managers. Not
a good sign.
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to the
real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years of >experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts of
brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I can
find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s) that
they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count)
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
Can someone provide me with some rough estimates of what a 1GW class
energy storage system ought to look like in terms of layout and the
number of container sized units and space required?
(or at least sanity check my guesstimate below)
Assuming that they mean 1GWh I reckon it will be about 2000T of Lithium >batteries. If each module is storage container sized and can contain
20m^2 of batteries I reckon it is about 100 units (twice that if I have
over estimated how much battery you can safely fit in a module). I
haven't been able to find any manufacturers specifications for them.
At what point in the scale up from 50MW storage units (which are quite
common in the UK) to these new Gigaparks do things get interesting?
It also strikes me that if these storage battery systems have similar >characteristics to the Lithium ion cells in my laptop they will require >complete replacement every 5 or so years if they get cycled daily.
And I presume each module needs integrated fire suppression systems to
handle thermal runaway problems. Lithium fires being notoriously
difficult for ordinary fire fighting methods to put out.
Also what additional measures will it need to tie into 400kV supergrid?
How do you even do that at 1GW using semiconductor components?
It can obviously be done since some big interconnectors are DC but how
much does that sort of hefty high voltage infrastructure cost?
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to
the real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years
of experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts
of brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I
can find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s)
that they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count)
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
So... 100MMW system in Alderley, Hampshire. My neck of the woods. No
such place that I know of, nor does Google Maps. They say' will update
in August 2024'....
On 24/11/2024 16:44, TTman wrote:
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to
the real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years
of experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts
of brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I
can find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s)
that they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count)
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
So... 100MMW system in Alderley, Hampshire. My neck of the woods. No
such place that I know of, nor does Google Maps. They say' will update
in August 2024'....
Thanks for that lead TTman. That template looks much as I expected.
There possibly is somewhere or a region with that name or maybe they
mean the one in Gloucestershire or even Cheshire. Who can tell?
The ones in my neck of the woods (3 of them) all 1GW are in public >consultation at the moment. It is likely to get rather interesting.
The ones with the most detailed prospectus after first stage public >consultation are at Teesside former steelworks site (fair enough) and
South Kilvington green field site (not good). The battery modules look
way too close together in the plans for my liking - any fire would have >spread before the fire brigade even got there.
https://www.natpower.uk/project/bellmoor/
https://www.natpower.uk/project/teesside2/
It is all very slick virtual reality marketing stuff.
The ones in my neck of the woods (3 of them) all 1GW are in public consultation
at the moment. It is likely to get rather interesting.
The ones with the most detailed prospectus after first stage public consultation are at Teesside former steelworks site (fair enough) and South Kilvington green field site (not good). The battery modules look way too close
together in the plans for my liking - any fire would have spread before the fire brigade even got there.
legg wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to the >>> real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years of
experience in BESS.
<snip>
I've seen Noddies totting up their combined years and calling that
'experience'.
This lot appear to have a bit more substance than that but absolutely no track record that I can find as their claimed company name. Their
website is really very impressive and slick. Lots of warm fuzzy words.
I haven't been able to figure out who did it for them.
It's not a straight-out lie, but it ain't the truth.
They are very good at placing PR puff pieces that get into the
mainstream media without adequate scrutiny on quiet news days. The days
of journalists fact checking outrageous claims are sadly long gone :(
Maybe they mean 1 gigawatt. It seems to be peaking power.
There are already long-distance DC power lines, with AC conversion on
both ends. I think they use a lot of IGBTs.
DC pwer lines in the UK ? Don't think so....
Imagine firing up a 12 gigawatt 800 KV converter for the first time!
NatPower sounds mostly bogus.
Luxembourg.
Snip
https://www.natpower.uk/project/bellmoor/
https://www.natpower.uk/project/teesside2/
It is all very slick virtual reality marketing stuff.
You've got to have energy before you can store it!
About all the UK has now is coal. Its NG reserves are mostly used up.
No, excess wind power meant I got paid for lots of my energy in the last
24 hrs.21:30 my cost is 0.66p yes! £00.66
22:30 minus 1.32p ( i.e I get paid to use it)
On 11/24/2024 10:58 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
The ones in my neck of the woods (3 of them) all 1GW are in public consultation
at the moment. It is likely to get rather interesting.
The ones with the most detailed prospectus after first stage public
consultation are at Teesside former steelworks site (fair enough) and South >> Kilvington green field site (not good). The battery modules look way too close
together in the plans for my liking - any fire would have spread before the >> fire brigade even got there.
State legislature is pushing laws/incentives to support *pumped*
storage, here. Of course, the geography will dictate where
that will be practical...
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to the
real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years of experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts of
brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I can
find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s) that
they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count)
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
Can someone provide me with some rough estimates of what a 1GW class
energy storage system ought to look like in terms of layout and the
number of container sized units and space required?
(or at least sanity check my guesstimate below)
Assuming that they mean 1GWh I reckon it will be about 2000T of Lithium batteries. If each module is storage container sized and can contain
20m^2 of batteries I reckon it is about 100 units (twice that if I have
over estimated how much battery you can safely fit in a module). I
haven't been able to find any manufacturers specifications for them.
At what point in the scale up from 50MW storage units (which are quite
common in the UK) to these new Gigaparks do things get interesting?
It also strikes me that if these storage battery systems have similar characteristics to the Lithium ion cells in my laptop they will require complete replacement every 5 or so years if they get cycled daily.
And I presume each module needs integrated fire suppression systems to
handle thermal runaway problems. Lithium fires being notoriously
difficult for ordinary fire fighting methods to put out.
Also what additional measures will it need to tie into 400kV supergrid?
How do you even do that at 1GW using semiconductor components?
It can obviously be done since some big interconnectors are DC but how
much does that sort of hefty high voltage infrastructure cost?
"Turkey day" here always reminds me of a small BLEVE from a propane tank
at a turkey farm which killed 3 firefighters and 20k turkeys. Gas
explosions here are so common that they only make the local news.
Lithium battery fires are not prone to exploding with the force one gets
from flammable gas and air mixtures, and so far they have all been rather small compared to your typical refinery fire.
Maybe they mean 1 gigawatt. It seems to be peaking power.
There are already long-distance DC power lines, with AC conversion on
both ends. I think they use a lot of IGBTs.
DC pwer lines in the UK ? Don't think so....
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 17:58:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 24/11/2024 16:44, TTman wrote:
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
You've got to have energy before you can store it!
About all the UK has now is coal. Its NG reserves are mostly used up.
Maybe they mean 1 gigawatt. It seems to be peaking power.
There are already long-distance DC power lines, with AC conversion on
both ends. I think they use a lot of IGBTs.
DC power lines in the UK ? Don't think so....
And I presume each module needs integrated fire suppression systems to
handle thermal runaway problems. Lithium fires being notoriously
difficult for ordinary fire fighting methods to put out.
Is there a way to put them out? I think they are a bit like magnesium
fires
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 19:04:06 +0000, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>Weeks? You are about as much of a weather expert as you are a climate
wrote:
Snip
https://www.natpower.uk/project/bellmoor/
https://www.natpower.uk/project/teesside2/
It is all very slick virtual reality marketing stuff.
You've got to have energy before you can store it!
About all the UK has now is coal. Its NG reserves are mostly used up.
No, excess wind power meant I got paid for lots of my energy in the last
24 hrs.21:30 my cost is 0.66p yes! £00.66
22:30 minus 1.32p ( i.e I get paid to use it)
There will be weeks of cold and dark and still, occasionally all
across Europe.
There aren't enough batteries to make it through
those. Maybe everyone can bundle up in bed until things improve.
For reliable power, nukes make sense, as does natural gas imported
from somewhere.
One can store a lot of LNG. Or uranium.
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 09:21:13 -0800, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 11:40:16 +0000, Martin Brown >><'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to the >>>real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years of >>>experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts of >>>brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I can >>>find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s) that >>>they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count)
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
Can someone provide me with some rough estimates of what a 1GW class >>>energy storage system ought to look like in terms of layout and the >>>number of container sized units and space required?
(or at least sanity check my guesstimate below)
Assuming that they mean 1GWh I reckon it will be about 2000T of Lithium >>>batteries. If each module is storage container sized and can contain >>>20m^2 of batteries I reckon it is about 100 units (twice that if I have >>>over estimated how much battery you can safely fit in a module). I >>>haven't been able to find any manufacturers specifications for them.
At what point in the scale up from 50MW storage units (which are quite >>>common in the UK) to these new Gigaparks do things get interesting?
It also strikes me that if these storage battery systems have similar >>>characteristics to the Lithium ion cells in my laptop they will require >>>complete replacement every 5 or so years if they get cycled daily.
And I presume each module needs integrated fire suppression systems to >>>handle thermal runaway problems. Lithium fires being notoriously >>>difficult for ordinary fire fighting methods to put out.
Also what additional measures will it need to tie into 400kV supergrid?
How do you even do that at 1GW using semiconductor components?
It can obviously be done since some big interconnectors are DC but how >>>much does that sort of hefty high voltage infrastructure cost?
Maybe they mean 1 gigawatt. It seems to be peaking power.
There are already long-distance DC power lines, with AC conversion on
both ends. I think they use a lot of IGBTs.
Yes. The key is optical triggering via an optical fiber, which is
both precise in time and electrically isolated, so one can stack many
units in series.
The highest-power stuff is Thyristor based, and is directly optically >triggered.
IGBTs are triggered by an optically-triggered IGBT driver.
Imagine firing up a 12 gigawatt 800 KV converter for the first time!
Done outdoors in staged steps, from a safe distance.
There will be many wires. 12e9/8e5= 1.5e4 amps total. Icing will not
be a problem.
Joe Gwinn
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 11:40:16 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to the >>real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years of >>experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts of
brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I can
find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s) that
they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count)
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
Can someone provide me with some rough estimates of what a 1GW class
energy storage system ought to look like in terms of layout and the
number of container sized units and space required?
(or at least sanity check my guesstimate below)
Assuming that they mean 1GWh I reckon it will be about 2000T of Lithium >>batteries. If each module is storage container sized and can contain
20m^2 of batteries I reckon it is about 100 units (twice that if I have >>over estimated how much battery you can safely fit in a module). I
haven't been able to find any manufacturers specifications for them.
At what point in the scale up from 50MW storage units (which are quite >>common in the UK) to these new Gigaparks do things get interesting?
It also strikes me that if these storage battery systems have similar >>characteristics to the Lithium ion cells in my laptop they will require >>complete replacement every 5 or so years if they get cycled daily.
And I presume each module needs integrated fire suppression systems to >>handle thermal runaway problems. Lithium fires being notoriously
difficult for ordinary fire fighting methods to put out.
Also what additional measures will it need to tie into 400kV supergrid?
How do you even do that at 1GW using semiconductor components?
It can obviously be done since some big interconnectors are DC but how
much does that sort of hefty high voltage infrastructure cost?
Maybe they mean 1 gigawatt. It seems to be peaking power.
There are already long-distance DC power lines, with AC conversion on
both ends. I think they use a lot of IGBTs.
Imagine firing up a 12 gigawatt 800 KV converter for the first time!
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 17:58:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 24/11/2024 16:44, TTman wrote:
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to
the real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years >>>> of experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts
of brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I
can find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s)
that they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count) >>>>
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only
skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
You've got to have energy before you can store it!
About all the UK has now is coal. Its NG reserves are mostly used up.
On 24/11/2024 18:20, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 17:58:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 24/11/2024 16:44, TTman wrote:
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to >>>>> the real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years >>>>> of experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts >>>>> of brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I
can find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s) >>>>> that they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count) >>>>>
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only >>>>> skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
You've got to have energy before you can store it!
There is plenty of energy in the form of windfarms that are quite
literally paid to *not* supply electricity when the wind blows any
faster than average. National grid CBA to put enough capacity into the
North South interconnects and so there is a huge surplus in the North
and a deficit in the South around London and the South East.
Cube law dependence of output power on windspeed means it isn't worth
putting in the cables in to move the highest possible peak power levels
(and that is a fair engineering compromise). However, right now they are
well short of a proper solution and a lot of Scottish and offshore wind >energy producers are paid to feather their blades!
https://news.sky.com/story/britons-paying-hundreds-of-millions-to-turn-off-wind-turbines-as-network-cant-handle-the-power-they-make-on-the-windiest-days-12822156
Building big BESS storage up North won't help at all. It will just alter
who they pay the "don't add your electricity to the grid" money to.
The stored energy needs to be already in the South before conditions get >tight since the N-S interconnectors have essentially no spare capacity
left at times of peak load. That was in part what caused the spectacular
fail when an insignificant little power station was struck by lightning
and triggered a cascade failure across large swathes of the country in
2019. It didn't help that UK trains required an engineering reset by a >specially trained operative with the right gear when power restored.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/10/uk-energy-watchdog-demands-answers-after-major-power-cut-england-wales
Problem is that land prices in the south are much higher...
About all the UK has now is coal. Its NG reserves are mostly used up.
Last coal fired power station shut down last month.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c98ye7ewwlwo
Dash for gas was how they met their CO2 reduction targets but now we are
a bit screwed since gas prices are sky high and we pay top market rates
for it (even though we still have active gas fields). They even did away
with the bulk gas storage facility so that we were literally hand to
mouth on the spot market for gas at the start of the Ukraine war.
There is some ageing nuclear still running and large scale biomass >greenwashed wood burning facilities like Drax (sounds like a Bond villain).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68381160
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:55:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 24/11/2024 18:20, john larkin wrote:
On Sun, 24 Nov 2024 17:58:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 24/11/2024 16:44, TTman wrote:
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
There is a startup company in the UK called NatPower (no relation to >>>>>> the real National Power PLC aka NPower) claiming to have over 25 years >>>>>> of experience in BESS. They are proposing 1GW (sic) BESS in all sorts >>>>>> of brown and green field UK sites. They have no track record that I >>>>>> can find. Does anyone here know of any real international project(s) >>>>>> that they have actually done and more importantly *delivered*?
(their own PR or its uncritical repetition in the press doesn't count) >>>>>>
Their website is very slick indeed but I suspect that beauty is only >>>>>> skin deep. I am interesting in evidence of substance not PR fluff.
You've got to have energy before you can store it!
There is plenty of energy in the form of windfarms that are quite
literally paid to *not* supply electricity when the wind blows any
faster than average. National grid CBA to put enough capacity into the
North South interconnects and so there is a huge surplus in the North
and a deficit in the South around London and the South East.
Cube law dependence of output power on windspeed means it isn't worth
putting in the cables in to move the highest possible peak power levels
(and that is a fair engineering compromise). However, right now they are
well short of a proper solution and a lot of Scottish and offshore wind
energy producers are paid to feather their blades!
https://news.sky.com/story/britons-paying-hundreds-of-millions-to-turn-off-wind-turbines-as-network-cant-handle-the-power-they-make-on-the-windiest-days-12822156
Building big BESS storage up North won't help at all. It will just alter
who they pay the "don't add your electricity to the grid" money to.
The stored energy needs to be already in the South before conditions get
tight since the N-S interconnectors have essentially no spare capacity
left at times of peak load. That was in part what caused the spectacular
fail when an insignificant little power station was struck by lightning
and triggered a cascade failure across large swathes of the country in
2019. It didn't help that UK trains required an engineering reset by a
specially trained operative with the right gear when power restored.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/aug/10/uk-energy-watchdog-demands-answers-after-major-power-cut-england-wales
Problem is that land prices in the south are much higher...
About all the UK has now is coal. Its NG reserves are mostly used up.
Last coal fired power station shut down last month.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c98ye7ewwlwo
Dash for gas was how they met their CO2 reduction targets but now we are
a bit screwed since gas prices are sky high and we pay top market rates
for it (even though we still have active gas fields). They even did away
with the bulk gas storage facility so that we were literally hand to
mouth on the spot market for gas at the start of the Ukraine war.
There is some ageing nuclear still running and large scale biomass
greenwashed wood burning facilities like Drax (sounds like a Bond villain). >>
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68381160
Having electricity used to be normal.
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:55:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
There is some ageing nuclear still running and large scale biomass
greenwashed wood burning facilities like Drax (sounds like a Bond villain). >>
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68381160
Having electricity used to be normal.
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:55:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
There is some ageing nuclear still running and large scale biomass
greenwashed wood burning facilities like Drax (sounds like a Bond villain). >>>
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68381160
Having electricity used to be normal.
Most of the time we still do. But the final leg of the electricity >distribution was sold off and the vulture capitalists found a cunning
way to extract value by ceasing to do any preventative maintenance!
It meant that when storm Arwen hit the north a single electricity pole >falling over took the next one down and then they fell over like
dominoes (or nine pins). We are OK with solid fuel stove and back boiler
and a generator but anyone who is entirely reliant on electricity for
heating (like our Village Hall) was screwed. My village was only down
for a couple of days more remote places were down for a fortnight.
UK electricity generation capacity is somewhat odd, but it has been >completely screwed by the lack of investment by the previous government. >There have been warnings of impending doom from experts now going back
more than two decades Professor Ian Fells at Newcastle for example:
2003 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3154001.stm
2014
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/uk-facing-blackouts-by-2014-338175
He has an axe to grind for the nuclear industry but what he said in
every case was true and made good scientific and engineering sense.
Not by him but the same basic message this year
2024 >https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/10/14/blackout-prevention-plan-activated-britain/
(sorry behind paywall)
Each time we have somehow muddled through by skin of teeth. Paying
people not to *use* electricity at absolute peak time is the latest
wheeze. We are very very close to the wire (pun intended) in the UK due
to decades of under investment in the electricity infrastructure.
At least there is some decent gas storage capacity again going into
winter. They had decommissioned it as "unnecessary" prior to the Ukraine
war. Talk about short sighted penny wise pound foolish!
https://www.centrica.com/media-centre/news/2023/centrica-bolsters-uk-s-energy-security-by-doubling-rough-storage-capacity/
Milder winters due to global warming have helped a bit. It was 10
degrees above the monthly average here not long ago.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 19:42:54 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:55:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
Milder winters due to global warming have helped a bit. It was 10
degrees above the monthly average here not long ago.
One swallow does not a spring make.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 19:42:54 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:55:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
There is some ageing nuclear still running and large scale biomass
greenwashed wood burning facilities like Drax (sounds like a Bond villain).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68381160
Having electricity used to be normal.
Most of the time we still do. But the final leg of the electricity >>distribution was sold off and the vulture capitalists found a cunning
way to extract value by ceasing to do any preventative maintenance!
The US "regulated monopoly" scheme, shareholder-owned companies with >guaranted returns and performance incentives, worked great for 100
years, until the regulation got amped up (pun intended).
The power here is very reliable. Sometimes something local, an old >transformer or something, breaks, but they fix it fast. City-wide
outages are very rare, basically unknown, between earthquakes.
An old wood pole leaned over and broke on our block a couple weeks
ago, and we lost power. An army of PG&E guys and trucks and heavy
equipment moved in and installed a new pole in about 5 hours.
The fix was amusing. I'll post a pic.
On 27/11/2024 10:34 am, john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 19:42:54 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:55:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
Milder winters due to global warming have helped a bit. It was 10
degrees above the monthly average here not long ago.
One swallow does not a spring make.
Despite Cursitor Doom's delusions, anthropogenic global warming is a
very reliable trend.
When people get sensible enough not to vote for goofs like Donald Trump
and Boris Johnson the trend may go into reverse.
Look at the Manua Loa data.
https://gml.noaa.gov/ccgg/trends/
If we melt enough of the Greenland ice sheet to kill off the Gulf stream
for a thousand years or so - a replay of the Younger Dryas - the UK will
have a problem.
On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 19:42:54 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
On Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:55:35 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
There is some ageing nuclear still running and large scale biomass
greenwashed wood burning facilities like Drax (sounds like a Bond villain).
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-68381160
Having electricity used to be normal.
Most of the time we still do. But the final leg of the electricity >>distribution was sold off and the vulture capitalists found a cunning
way to extract value by ceasing to do any preventative maintenance!
The US "regulated monopoly" scheme, shareholder-owned companies with >guaranted returns and performance incentives, worked great for 100
years, until the regulation got amped up (pun intended).
The power here is very reliable. Sometimes something local, an old >transformer or something, breaks, but they fix it fast. City-wide
outages are very rare, basically unknown, between earthquakes.
An old wood pole leaned over and broke on our block a couple weeks
ago, and we lost power. An army of PG&E guys and trucks and heavy
equipment moved in and installed a new pole in about 5 hours.
The fix was amusing. I'll post a pic.
Having electricity used to be normal.
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
Having electricity used to be normal.
UK power supply is generally way more stable than US. However, there is
a huge imbalance between where electricity is generated and it is used.
The North-South 400kV interconnectors are often maxed out at peak times.
The public consultation was yesterday. It really is 1GW injection power
and 4 hours so a 4GWhr battery farm (40x bigger than the largest system currently in the UK and being built by a startup with no track record!).
It will have ~900 container modules of batteries as close together as
they dare (half the US regulation spacing) and in double lines of 50.
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV?
And how much does one cost?
I'm guessing the secondary to handle 2500A will have to be (30A = 2mm^2
so 3000A ~ 200mm^2 = 16mm diameter) and at a 40:1 stepdown the low side
will have to be 40x bigger cross section 6x linear size hollow core?).
Are these guesses approximately right? How many turns on each?
How much soft iron core does it require (approximately)?
The location chosen is very cunning. They will get paid not to produce electricity by intercepting the payments (to not produce electricity) currently made to wind farm owners in Scotland and off the NE coast.
We don't have any worthwhile national infrastructure planning to speak
of and so this national level storage facility will be approved by a
county council planning department (any one of them if built would immediately be the largest BESS in the world). 3 within 20 miles of me.
It will have ~900 container modules of batteries as close together as
they dare (half the US regulation spacing) and in double lines of 50.
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV?
And how much does one cost?
I'm guessing the secondary to handle 2500A will have to be (30A = 2mm^2
so 3000A ~ 200mm^2 = 16mm diameter) and at a 40:1 stepdown the low side
will have to be 40x bigger cross section 6x linear size hollow core?).
Are these guesses approximately right? How many turns on each?
How much soft iron core does it require (approximately)?
On 11/30/24 11:50, Martin Brown wrote:
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV?
And how much does one cost?
There are plenty of images and descriptions of 400kV transformers
on the web. You have to be an insider to get a fair idea of the
cost. These things are usually made to order. I'd guess a 1GVA
400kV transformer to be between 6 and 7 M$. I'm not an insider
though.
On 11/30/24 11:50, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
Having electricity used to be normal.
UK power supply is generally way more stable than US. However, there is
a huge imbalance between where electricity is generated and it is used.
The North-South 400kV interconnectors are often maxed out at peak times.
The public consultation was yesterday. It really is 1GW injection power
and 4 hours so a 4GWhr battery farm (40x bigger than the largest system
currently in the UK and being built by a startup with no track record!).
It will have ~900 container modules of batteries as close together as
they dare (half the US regulation spacing) and in double lines of 50.
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV?
And how much does one cost?
I'm guessing the secondary to handle 2500A will have to be (30A = 2mm^2
so 3000A ~ 200mm^2 = 16mm diameter) and at a 40:1 stepdown the low side
will have to be 40x bigger cross section 6x linear size hollow core?).
Are these guesses approximately right? How many turns on each?
How much soft iron core does it require (approximately)?
The location chosen is very cunning. They will get paid not to produce
electricity by intercepting the payments (to not produce electricity)
currently made to wind farm owners in Scotland and off the NE coast.
We don't have any worthwhile national infrastructure planning to speak
of and so this national level storage facility will be approved by a
county council planning department (any one of them if built would
immediately be the largest BESS in the world). 3 within 20 miles of me.
There are plenty of images and descriptions of 400kV transformers
on the web. You have to be an insider to get a fair idea of the
cost. These things are usually made to order. I'd guess a 1GVA
400kV transformer to be between 6 and 7 M$. I'm not an insider
though.
Jeroen Belleman
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[..]
It will have ~900 container modules of batteries as close together as
they dare (half the US regulation spacing) and in double lines of 50.
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV?
And how much does one cost?
I'm guessing the secondary to handle 2500A will have to be (30A = 2mm^2
so 3000A ~ 200mm^2 = 16mm diameter) and at a 40:1 stepdown the low side
will have to be 40x bigger cross section 6x linear size hollow core?).
Are these guesses approximately right? How many turns on each?
How much soft iron core does it require (approximately)?
[...]
Have we got the industry that could make such a thing - or shall we be
buying it from China?
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
Having electricity used to be normal.
UK power supply is generally way more stable than US.
a huge imbalance between where electricity is generated and it is used.
The North-South 400kV interconnectors are often maxed out at peak times.
The public consultation was yesterday. It really is 1GW injection power
and 4 hours so a 4GWhr battery farm (40x bigger than the largest system >currently in the UK and being built by a startup with no track record!).
It will have ~900 container modules of batteries as close together as
they dare (half the US regulation spacing) and in double lines of 50.
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV?
And how much does one cost?
I'm guessing the secondary to handle 2500A will have to be (30A = 2mm^2
so 3000A ~ 200mm^2 = 16mm diameter) and at a 40:1 stepdown the low side
will have to be 40x bigger cross section 6x linear size hollow core?).
Are these guesses approximately right? How many turns on each?
How much soft iron core does it require (approximately)?
The location chosen is very cunning. They will get paid not to produce >electricity by intercepting the payments (to not produce electricity) >currently made to wind farm owners in Scotland and off the NE coast.
We don't have any worthwhile national infrastructure planning to speak
of and so this national level storage facility will be approved by a
county council planning department (any one of them if built would >immediately be the largest BESS in the world). 3 within 20 miles of me.
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
<snipped>
I wonder if there's any mileage in this technique...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_carbon_dioxide_energy_storage
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 11:51:52 +0000, Clive Arthur
<clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
<snipped>
I wonder if there's any mileage in this technique...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_carbon_dioxide_energy_storage
Propane would be even better. After the pressure recovery, if you
still need power, you could burn it.
On 30/11/2024 11:37, Jeroen Belleman wrote:portfolio/power-transformers-up-to-500mva/
On 11/30/24 11:50, Martin Brown wrote:
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at
400kV?
And how much does one cost?
There are plenty of images and descriptions of 400kV transformers on
the web. You have to be an insider to get a fair idea of the cost.
These things are usually made to order. I'd guess a 1GVA 400kV
transformer to be between 6 and 7 M$. I'm not an insider though.
In a quick Google search I wasn't able to find anything bigger than
500MVA at 400kV at least not domestically in the UK. Hence the question.
https://www.wilsonpowersolutions.co.uk/products/transformer-product-
Any idea of the lead times for built to order, weight or dimensions
would be very helpful.
I did also find these largest in Europe and UK BESS setups (real ones)
as a result of your suggestion so thanks for that lead.
Any idea of how the scaling law for big EHT transformers runs in terms
of power handling? eg how much cheaper is one for half the power?
I have to say that I was more impressed than I wanted to be with their
sales pitch. The only thing badly wrong is the site access route. They
were up to their eyeballs in expensive (but knowledgable consultants) -
they must be burning money on this project hand over fist.
On 30/11/2024 15:59, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 11:51:52 +0000, Clive Arthur
<clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
<snipped>
I wonder if there's any mileage in this technique...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_carbon_dioxide_energy_storage
Propane would be even better. After the pressure recovery, if you
still need power, you could burn it.
Absolutely. And use the energy to liquefy the CO2 thus produced!
Do you stand on street corners wearing a MAGA hat and with a sandwich
board proclaiming 'The End of the World is Not Nigh'? You do seem to
take every opportunity to announce your irrational belief that
anthropogenic climate change is a lie.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 10:50:07 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
Having electricity used to be normal.
UK power supply is generally way more stable than US.
How many hours per year is your power out?
I'd estimate two total here, on avearge, but a pole on our street
toppled down recently and that took 5 hours to replace
Large-region power failures are very rare here, between major
earthquakes.
The public consultation was yesterday. It really is 1GW injection power
and 4 hours so a 4GWhr battery farm (40x bigger than the largest system
currently in the UK and being built by a startup with no track record!).
It will have ~900 container modules of batteries as close together as
they dare (half the US regulation spacing) and in double lines of 50.
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV?
And how much does one cost?
Big utility transformers are made to order, and that can take years.
The hazards there are obvious.
I'm guessing the secondary to handle 2500A will have to be (30A = 2mm^2
so 3000A ~ 200mm^2 = 16mm diameter) and at a 40:1 stepdown the low side
will have to be 40x bigger cross section 6x linear size hollow core?).
Are these guesses approximately right? How many turns on each?
How much soft iron core does it require (approximately)?
It takes special gear to measure the inductance of a utility-scale transformer. A handheld meter won't do.
The location chosen is very cunning. They will get paid not to produce
electricity by intercepting the payments (to not produce electricity)
currently made to wind farm owners in Scotland and off the NE coast.
Hey, I know how to not produce electricity.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:01:37 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 16:41:32 GMT, Glen Walpert wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:01:37 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:
Here is a document with typical sizes and prices for distribution transformers from 2012:
<https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/ Large%20Power%20Transformer%20Study%20-%20June%202012_0.pdf>
On 30/11/2024 15:53, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 12:37:55 +0100, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 11/30/24 11:50, Martin Brown wrote:
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV? >>>> And how much does one cost?
There are plenty of images and descriptions of 400kV transformers
on the web. You have to be an insider to get a fair idea of the
cost. These things are usually made to order. I'd guess a 1GVA
400kV transformer to be between 6 and 7 M$. I'm not an insider
though.
Jeroen Belleman
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fte4dwtoui96xgeyn9f0h/XfmrScatter.JPG?rlkey=8uh77rliholy3iyd9y8lnvdwc&raw=1
I should add dollars.
Thanks John, but that looks a bit pessimistic.
If I read it right that's 200lb=0.1T for 1kVA so 10^5T for a 1GVA unit.
My current best guess from 4.5T for 1MVA and so 4500T for 1GVA (plus a
bit extra supporting structure to deal with the extra weight).
On 30/11/2024 18:06, Glen Walpert wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 16:41:32 GMT, Glen Walpert wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 14:01:37 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:
Here is a document with typical sizes and prices for distribution
transformers from 2012:
<https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/Large%20Power%20Transformer%20Study%20-%20June%202012_0.pdf>
Thank you Glen that looks like just what I need.
On 30/11/2024 15:51, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 10:50:07 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
Having electricity used to be normal.
UK power supply is generally way more stable than US.
How many hours per year is your power out?
Mine personally used to be entirely reliable after they replaced the
perished 1950's rubber insulated 3 vertical strands LT with modern
aluminium compound cable wiring with a steel hawser core. Prior to that
the lights would flicker in storms and burning bits of rubber would fall
to the ground under mostly bare copper wires as wet strips of old rubber
and canvas insulation touched them with much arcing and sparking.
Apart from half a day a year for preventative maintenance where they cut
down overhanging tree branches it was reliable in the old days. Failure
is usually because someone has driven into a pole. Hazard of above
ground cabling (which is unusual in the UK apart from rural backwaters).
However, since the latest shower cut back on preventative maintenance we
got hammered when storm Arwen hit taking down several (rotten) poles. We
were down for a couple of days but people around me were down for up to
two weeks (not enough poles and/or people and kit to put them in). Their >replace on fail policy can't cope with massive systemic failures. Same
with a couple of inches of snow and UK grinds to a standstill.
In the cities mains supplies are underground and pretty much reliable
apart from that infamous incident that I referred to. However, in a cold >winter on a still and cloudy day the margins now are extremely tight at
a level where they have to pay some bigger industrial users not to use
power.
I'd estimate two total here, on avearge, but a pole on our street
toppled down recently and that took 5 hours to replace
We had that too in my village. Once a tree fell on it and the steel
hawser held it but permanently bent all the poles like bananas and the
other time the milk tanker on sheet ice totalled a pole on one of the
coldest days of the year (Sunday morning). Isolated random incident so
the previous power distribution company had us back on by nightfall.
If that happened again today I expect we would get something like :
"Your call is really important to us ... our office hours are 9-5 please
call back on Monday with you emergency power outage <naff music>".
Large-region power failures are very rare here, between major
earthquakes.
They are in the UK too. We don't have earthquakes (well we do notice the
odd one every few years but they are tiny compared to real earthquakes).
The public consultation was yesterday. It really is 1GW injection power
and 4 hours so a 4GWhr battery farm (40x bigger than the largest system
currently in the UK and being built by a startup with no track record!). >>>
It will have ~900 container modules of batteries as close together as
they dare (half the US regulation spacing) and in double lines of 50.
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV? >>> And how much does one cost?
Big utility transformers are made to order, and that can take years.
The hazards there are obvious.
That is what I thought. I'm trying to put bounds on the lead time. I'm
more impressed with their sales pitch than I expected to be. My back of
the envelope calculations suggest an air of unreality about their >claimed/intended GW injection capacity. Availability of supergrid line
is not in doubt two main corridors run close by. You can light up a
fluoro tube stood on end under them. Indeed an artist did just that!
https://www.industrytap.com/florescent-bulbs-unplugged-and-shinning-tapping-electromagnetic-fields/1763
I'm guessing the secondary to handle 2500A will have to be (30A = 2mm^2
so 3000A ~ 200mm^2 = 16mm diameter) and at a 40:1 stepdown the low side
will have to be 40x bigger cross section 6x linear size hollow core?).
Are these guesses approximately right? How many turns on each?
How much soft iron core does it require (approximately)?
It takes special gear to measure the inductance of a utility-scale
transformer. A handheld meter won't do.
Granted.
The location chosen is very cunning. They will get paid not to produce
electricity by intercepting the payments (to not produce electricity)
currently made to wind farm owners in Scotland and off the NE coast.
Hey, I know how to not produce electricity.
You also have to possess the requisite kit to get paid for not doing it.
(UK infrastructure is a complete mess after decades of under investment)
Another question for my education approximately what is the current
rating of a modern UK 400kV supergrid line (I presume limited by sagging
or softening from thermal expansion). Likewise for 132kV and 33kV.
Wiki says ~2GW/circuit at 400kV (seems far too low to me)?
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 17:40:08 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 30/11/2024 15:51, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 10:50:07 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
Having electricity used to be normal.
UK power supply is generally way more stable than US.
How many hours per year is your power out?
Mine personally used to be entirely reliable after they replaced the
perished 1950's rubber insulated 3 vertical strands LT with modern
aluminium compound cable wiring with a steel hawser core. Prior to that
the lights would flicker in storms and burning bits of rubber would fall
to the ground under mostly bare copper wires as wet strips of old rubber
and canvas insulation touched them with much arcing and sparking.
Apart from half a day a year for preventative maintenance where they cut
down overhanging tree branches it was reliable in the old days. Failure
is usually because someone has driven into a pole. Hazard of above
ground cabling (which is unusual in the UK apart from rural backwaters).
However, since the latest shower cut back on preventative maintenance we
got hammered when storm Arwen hit taking down several (rotten) poles. We
were down for a couple of days but people around me were down for up to
two weeks (not enough poles and/or people and kit to put them in). Their
replace on fail policy can't cope with massive systemic failures. Same
with a couple of inches of snow and UK grinds to a standstill.
In the cities mains supplies are underground and pretty much reliable
apart from that infamous incident that I referred to. However, in a cold
winter on a still and cloudy day the margins now are extremely tight at
a level where they have to pay some bigger industrial users not to use
power.
I'd estimate two total here, on avearge, but a pole on our street
toppled down recently and that took 5 hours to replace
We had that too in my village. Once a tree fell on it and the steel
hawser held it but permanently bent all the poles like bananas and the
other time the milk tanker on sheet ice totalled a pole on one of the
coldest days of the year (Sunday morning). Isolated random incident so
the previous power distribution company had us back on by nightfall.
If that happened again today I expect we would get something like :
"Your call is really important to us ... our office hours are 9-5 please
call back on Monday with you emergency power outage <naff music>".
Large-region power failures are very rare here, between major
earthquakes.
They are in the UK too. We don't have earthquakes (well we do notice the
odd one every few years but they are tiny compared to real earthquakes).
In Louisiana, a good hurricane would take power out for a week in New Orleans, and a month or so out in the country. Volunteer linemen would
fly in from all over the USA.
The 1989 quake here was a 6.9, enough to fracture brick and
soft-foundation buildings, and a freeway, and a big part of the Bay
Bridge. Bricks killed some people, but the Oakland freeway collapse
was the nasty one. That bit of freeway had won architectural awards
for the elegance of its delicate supports. We engineering students
used to make fun of the architects.
I had some plaster walls crack, and a brick chimney collapse. Power
was out for a day or so, so we had a neighborhood ice cream party. A
mag 8 or so would be really bad, horizontal accels around 1G.
Further up, coast of Washington and Oregon, could be really bad.
There are still about a billion people in the world without
electricity, which usually means no clean running water, and cooking
over found wood or dung.
The public consultation was yesterday. It really is 1GW injection power >>>> and 4 hours so a 4GWhr battery farm (40x bigger than the largest system >>>> currently in the UK and being built by a startup with no track record!). >>>>
It will have ~900 container modules of batteries as close together as
they dare (half the US regulation spacing) and in double lines of 50.
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV? >>>> And how much does one cost?
Big utility transformers are made to order, and that can take years.
The hazards there are obvious.
That is what I thought. I'm trying to put bounds on the lead time. I'm
more impressed with their sales pitch than I expected to be. My back of
the envelope calculations suggest an air of unreality about their
claimed/intended GW injection capacity. Availability of supergrid line
is not in doubt two main corridors run close by. You can light up a
fluoro tube stood on end under them. Indeed an artist did just that!
https://www.industrytap.com/florescent-bulbs-unplugged-and-shinning-tapping-electromagnetic-fields/1763
I wouldn't have suspected that, to have enough field near the ground
from 3-phase lines way above.
Increased CO2 and a warmer climate, whatever the causes, are wonderful
for life on Earth, including human life.
How strange you are. Do you ever successfully design electronics?
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 13:17:42 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[..]
It will have ~900 container modules of batteries as close together as
they dare (half the US regulation spacing) and in double lines of 50.
SO that makes me wonder how big is a 1GW transformer operating at 400kV? >>> And how much does one cost?
I'm guessing the secondary to handle 2500A will have to be (30A = 2mm^2
so 3000A ~ 200mm^2 = 16mm diameter) and at a 40:1 stepdown the low side
will have to be 40x bigger cross section 6x linear size hollow core?).
Are these guesses approximately right? How many turns on each?
How much soft iron core does it require (approximately)?
[...]
Have we got the industry that could make such a thing - or shall we be >>buying it from China?
Maybe switchmode would work, to scale down the 50/60 Hz magnetics.
On 11/30/24 22:44, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 17:40:08 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
fluoro tube stood on end under them. Indeed an artist did just that!
https://www.industrytap.com/florescent-bulbs-unplugged-and-shinning-tapping-electromagnetic-fields/1763
I wouldn't have suspected that, to have enough field near the ground
from 3-phase lines way above.
I can attest that it works. Been there, done that.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 17:40:08 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 30/11/2024 15:51, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 10:50:07 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
On 26/11/2024 03:15, john larkin wrote:
There are still about a billion people in the world without
electricity, which usually means no clean running water, and cooking
over found wood or dung.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 16:16:39 +0000, Clive Arthur
<clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
On 30/11/2024 15:59, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 11:51:52 +0000, Clive Arthur
<clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
<snipped>
I wonder if there's any mileage in this technique...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_carbon_dioxide_energy_storage
Propane would be even better. After the pressure recovery, if you
still need power, you could burn it.
Absolutely. And use the energy to liquefy the CO2 thus produced!
If you want a power plant that never exports power, that's a great
idea. Most people want to keep their lights on.
Do you stand on street corners wearing a MAGA hat and with a sandwich
board proclaiming 'The End of the World is Not Nigh'? You do seem to
take every opportunity to announce your irrational belief that
anthropogenic climate change is a lie.
Increased CO2 and a warmer climate, whatever the causes, are wonderful
for life on Earth, including human life.
How strange you are. Do you ever successfully design electronics?
On 30/11/2024 22:58, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 11/30/24 22:44, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 17:40:08 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
fluoro tube stood on end under them. Indeed an artist did just that!
https://www.industrytap.com/florescent-bulbs-unplugged-and-shinning-tapping-electromagnetic-fields/1763
I wouldn't have suspected that, to have enough field near the ground
from 3-phase lines way above.
I can attest that it works. Been there, done that.
+1 Great mad scientist experiment - I was surprised by the brightness.
So can I. The longer tube the better.
On 30/11/2024 22:58, Jeroen Belleman wrote:
On 11/30/24 22:44, john larkin wrote:
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 17:40:08 +0000, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
fluoro tube stood on end under them. Indeed an artist did just that!
https://www.industrytap.com/florescent-bulbs-unplugged-and-shinning-tapping-electromagnetic-fields/1763
I wouldn't have suspected that, to have enough field near the ground
from 3-phase lines way above.
I can attest that it works. Been there, done that.
+1 Great mad scientist experiment - I was surprised by the brightness.
So can I. The longer tube the better.
You can hear the 400kV cables sizzling on a quiet wind free day. Windy
and in the right direction they can literally sing producing turbulent
wakes off the round cross section. Much like some roof racks on cars do.
It is quite an eerie howl.
On 24/11/2024 11:40, Martin Brown wrote:
<snipped>
I wonder if there's any mileage in this technique...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_carbon_dioxide_energy_storage
If that happened again today I expect we would get something like :
"Your call is really important to us ... our office hours are 9-5 please
call back on Monday with you emergency power outage <naff music>".
Martin Brown <'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:
[...]
If that happened again today I expect we would get something like :
"Your call is really important to us ... our office hours are 9-5 please
call back on Monday with you emergency power outage <naff music>".
No you wouldn't because your 'phone wouldn't work at all in a power cut.
of more than a few hours
On 30/11/2024 17:32, john larkin wrote:
<snip>
Increased CO2 and a warmer climate, whatever the causes, are wonderful
for life on Earth, including human life.
Oh goody, an assertion! Or should that be godly? You're a theist
aren't you?
Come on, 'Kumbaya my Lord'. You know you want to.
How strange you are. Do you ever successfully design electronics?
Yeah, loads. Never quite as good as I'd want it to be, but it sells. I
have loads of gaps in my knowledge, but people here have helped a lot.
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 23:10:52 +0000, Clive Arthur
<clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
On 30/11/2024 17:32, john larkin wrote:
<snip>
Increased CO2 and a warmer climate, whatever the causes, are wonderful
for life on Earth, including human life.
Oh goody, an assertion! Or should that be godly? You're a theist
aren't you?
Not a bit. That's a common amateur tactic, accuse people of being
Bible bangers or Trump lovers because you disagree with them.
https://www.nasa.gov/centers-and-facilities/goddard/carbon-dioxide-fertilization-greening-earth-study-finds/
Is that "NASA" some fringe religious cult?
That doesn't say why corn yields have risen in the relevant periods -Come on, 'Kumbaya my Lord'. You know you want to.
https://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/corn/news/timeless/images/US_Corn_Yld_Trend.png
So many religious nuts!\
CO2 is the only nutrient plants
need
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
[...]
CO2 is the only nutrient plants
need
Where did you learn biology?
On 3/12/2024 11:28 pm, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
[...]
CO2 is the only nutrient plants
need
That was a typo. It should have been "CO2 is not the only nutient plants need"
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