• OT: USPS "informed delivery"

    From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 19 18:07:51 2024
    I'm trying to figure out the business sense of this.
    It obviously costs something to implement. What is
    the expected (long-term?) payback? Do they expect to
    eventually allow people to READ their mail BEFORE it
    is delivered? Simply knowing that <something> is
    on its way doesn't really seem to be much in terms
    of added value...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Tue Nov 19 21:57:47 2024
    On 11/19/2024 9:18 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 18:07:51 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm trying to figure out the business sense of this.
    It obviously costs something to implement. What is
    the expected (long-term?) payback? Do they expect to
    eventually allow people to READ their mail BEFORE it
    is delivered? Simply knowing that <something> is
    on its way doesn't really seem to be much in terms
    of added value...

    Informed Delivery
    <https://www.usps.com/manage/informed-delivery.htm>

    Informed Delivery can act as proof of delivery in case the mail or
    package is stolen.

    Can it similarly be used as evidence of process service?

    I've been told (and have not confirmed) that the
    USPS photographs and archives everything that is "interesting" which
    is delivered to a mailbox. Because they already do most of the work,
    the added cost of giving customers access to the information is very
    small.

    I think most mail is photographed as part of the address scanning
    and routing process. Humans don't do the sorting.

    I've been using Informed Delivery for the rural mailbox for mail
    addressed to my physical home address since the service was announced.
    For everything else, including packages, I use my PO Box address.

    Guide to Post Office Box Street Addresses (PBSA) <https://postalpro.usps.com/PBSA> <https://postalpro.usps.com/storages/2017-02/PBSAGuide.pdf>

    Street Addressing Service for Your P.O. Box <https://postalpro.usps.com/node/2728> <https://postalpro.usps.com/storages/2016-12/2728_PBSACustomerAgreement.pdf>

    Mail theft was a big problem for me until I began renting a PO Box.

    Yes, we don't have anything sent to the house. And, many transactions
    are done via ecommerce so there is no real "paper" involved.

    Unfortunately, the service costs me $216/year. My rural mailbox is
    located at an inconvenient distance from my house because the letter
    carrier will not deliver on my marginal owner maintained dirt road
    (even though UPS, FedEx and others do deliver).

    But, is the POBox really any closer?

    I thought I could survive without the rural mailbox and use my PO Box
    for everything, but that didn't work. There are some companies
    (Amazon) and government agencies who refuse to deliver to a PO Box.
    When something important is delivered to my rural mailbox, I am
    notified via Informed Delivery.

    OK, that makes sense. But, I would see that as a special case.
    How does USPS expect The Masses the *want* this? "Oh, my VISA
    bill is on its way! I can hardly wait!"

    I then rush to the rural mailbox
    before the thieves arrive. Otherwise, I wouldn't know anything had
    arrived until I eventually clean out the accumulated junk mail.

    There are "boxes" that can be rented from non-USPS providers. You
    get an address like:
    John Doe
    <address of facility>
    Suite <box number>
    <city> <state> <ZIP>

    These have some advantages:
    - pricing
    - no rule that the owner of the box be disclosed (as with USPS)
    - packages accepted (because the sender doesn't know it's a "box")
    - *possibly* better hours (though the boxes at our PO are open 24/7)
    - if you develop a rapport with the operator, they can accept
    and store perishable items for you

    They also can give the illusion that you have a "real business" and
    not just a "POBox" somewhere.

    [A friend gave me his business card. I noticed the address was just
    a mile or so from my home and decided to drop in to see him one day.
    Surprising to see that it was just one of these retail outlets
    renting a (shoebox sized) "suite" to him!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Tue Nov 19 20:18:33 2024
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 18:07:51 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm trying to figure out the business sense of this.
    It obviously costs something to implement. What is
    the expected (long-term?) payback? Do they expect to
    eventually allow people to READ their mail BEFORE it
    is delivered? Simply knowing that <something> is
    on its way doesn't really seem to be much in terms
    of added value...

    Informed Delivery
    <https://www.usps.com/manage/informed-delivery.htm>

    Informed Delivery can act as proof of delivery in case the mail or
    package is stolen. I've been told (and have not confirmed) that the
    USPS photographs and archives everything that is "interesting" which
    is delivered to a mailbox. Because they already do most of the work,
    the added cost of giving customers access to the information is very
    small.

    I've been using Informed Delivery for the rural mailbox for mail
    addressed to my physical home address since the service was announced.
    For everything else, including packages, I use my PO Box address.

    Guide to Post Office Box Street Addresses (PBSA) <https://postalpro.usps.com/PBSA> <https://postalpro.usps.com/storages/2017-02/PBSAGuide.pdf>

    Street Addressing Service for Your P.O. Box <https://postalpro.usps.com/node/2728> <https://postalpro.usps.com/storages/2016-12/2728_PBSACustomerAgreement.pdf>

    Mail theft was a big problem for me until I began renting a PO Box. Unfortunately, the service costs me $216/year. My rural mailbox is
    located at an inconvenient distance from my house because the letter
    carrier will not deliver on my marginal owner maintained dirt road
    (even though UPS, FedEx and others do deliver).

    I thought I could survive without the rural mailbox and use my PO Box
    for everything, but that didn't work. There are some companies
    (Amazon) and government agencies who refuse to deliver to a PO Box.
    When something important is delivered to my rural mailbox, I am
    notified via Informed Delivery. I then rush to the rural mailbox
    before the thieves arrive. Otherwise, I wouldn't know anything had
    arrived until I eventually clean out the accumulated junk mail.


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Nov 20 09:30:17 2024
    On 20/11/2024 01:07, Don Y wrote:
    I'm trying to figure out the business sense of this.
    It obviously costs something to implement.  What is
    the expected (long-term?) payback?  Do they expect to
    eventually allow people to READ their mail BEFORE it
    is delivered?  Simply knowing that <something> is
    on its way doesn't really seem to be much in terms
    of added value...

    I'm surprised that they don't offer it already. Typically used for
    serving legal documents or ship smaller valuable items in the UK. It is marginally cheaper than most proper couriers.

    Most normal UK stamps now have unique potentially traceable QR style
    codes on them. The forged ones do too (it was supposed to prevent that).

    They charge a premium price for signed for and tracked postal services.
    It is about the only thing they make money on now. You can see where the
    your parcel is sat rotting away due to their incompetence.

    UK PO have priced themselves out of the market for letter post with most
    people and businesses using email instead. Virtual eCards at Xmas.

    The only reason I have surface mail delivered is for utility bills and
    council tax to be able to prove who I am at banks (trivial to forge). UK doesn't have any coherent proof of ID system - it is a monumental joke.

    --
    Martin Brown

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  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Nov 20 12:57:43 2024
    On 2024-11-20, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 20/11/2024 01:07, Don Y wrote:
    I'm trying to figure out the business sense of this.
    It obviously costs something to implement.  What is
    the expected (long-term?) payback?  Do they expect to
    eventually allow people to READ their mail BEFORE it
    is delivered?  Simply knowing that <something> is
    on its way doesn't really seem to be much in terms
    of added value...

    I'm surprised that they don't offer it already. Typically used for
    serving legal documents or ship smaller valuable items in the UK. It is marginally cheaper than most proper couriers.

    You mean you want the Post Office to open your mail and read it? That's
    quite likely never going to happen. (And frankly, I'd rather it stay
    that way)

    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ralph Mowery@21:1/5 to All on Wed Nov 20 10:04:19 2024
    In article <vhjcpb$23tji$1@dont-email.me>, blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
    says...

    I'm trying to figure out the business sense of this.
    It obviously costs something to implement. What is
    the expected (long-term?) payback? Do they expect to
    eventually allow people to READ their mail BEFORE it
    is delivered? Simply knowing that <something> is
    on its way doesn't really seem to be much in terms
    of added value...




    The informed mail sure comes in hand to a friend of mine. Almost every
    week he has to chase down his mail. There are some similar road names
    in the county .
    About once a month my dad got some mail delivered to him that should go
    aout 10 miles away. He lived on White Farm road and the other was just
    White road.

    Similar to the tracking of packages. I did order one time about $ 100
    worth of food from Walmart and it never got delivered to me. I like the
    way some package services take a picture of where they left the package.
    I thought they had left one at the wrong place form the picture but it
    was taken sideways.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Ralph Mowery on Wed Nov 20 10:23:55 2024
    On 11/20/2024 8:04 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    The informed mail sure comes in hand to a friend of mine. Almost every
    week he has to chase down his mail. There are some similar road names
    in the county .
    About once a month my dad got some mail delivered to him that should go
    aout 10 miles away. He lived on White Farm road and the other was just White road.

    LOL. So, they should offer a service to PROVE that they screwed up?

    I can't see how taking on an extra cost -- for a FREE SERVICE -- helps
    an agency that is already losing money. It has to be (IMO) a foot
    in the door to get access to electronic document transfer (mail).

    Similar to the tracking of packages. I did order one time about $ 100
    worth of food from Walmart and it never got delivered to me. I like the
    way some package services take a picture of where they left the package.
    I thought they had left one at the wrong place form the picture but it
    was taken sideways.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Nov 20 10:20:40 2024
    On 11/20/2024 2:30 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 20/11/2024 01:07, Don Y wrote:
    I'm trying to figure out the business sense of this.
    It obviously costs something to implement.  What is
    the expected (long-term?) payback?  Do they expect to
    eventually allow people to READ their mail BEFORE it
    is delivered?  Simply knowing that <something> is
    on its way doesn't really seem to be much in terms
    of added value...

    I'm surprised that they don't offer it already. Typically used for serving legal documents or ship smaller valuable items in the UK. It is marginally cheaper than most proper couriers.

    Typically, here, a process server has to PHYSICALLY interact with
    a "responsible person" (i.e., not a minor) for papers to have
    been considered "served".

    E.g., we used to have photo traffic enforcement, here (cameras
    to snap photos of drivers running stop lights, speeding, etc.).
    The document is mailed to the vehicle owner's (! not necessarily
    the driver, right?) residence.

    The "scoflaw" is expected to endorse the document and remit
    the necessary fine (or, appear in court on the prescribed day/time).

    PART OF THIS ENDORSEMENT is to waive your right to being "served",
    properly.

    This leaves an interesting loophole: if you simply ignore the mailing,
    there is no way for the court to PROVE you received the notice. So,
    they will dispatch a process server to those addresses that did not
    respond to the paper notification.

    Of course, if you simply don't answer the door, then there is no way
    to be verifiably "served" and the offense is dropped! (you can't
    APPEAR to be ignoring the process server so the house needs to seem
    unoccupied)

    To confound folks who might do this, the documents include thumbnails
    of the offender -- which are too small to see in any detail. And,
    a convenient link to a web page THAT APPEARS TO PROTECT YOUR PRIVACY
    by having a unique, hard to randomly synthesize address:
    <scoflaws.com/offenders/2309235089374058734857348720397>
    One wouldn't want The Public to be able to browse folks ACCUSED of
    crimes, right?

    Of course, the fact that someone was able to specify that long,
    pseudo-random URL is argued as evidence that the only person
    LIKELY to have accessed it is the person who was able to read it
    off of the NOTICE mailed to him! I.e., proof that you were
    notified -- without requiring the post office to be involved
    (paid!) for that service!

    People instinctively want to SEE the photos so seal their own fate.

    [We adopted a citizen's initiative to ban the use of phot-enforcement,
    here -- largely because the cameras were set too restrictively
    and nitpicked about violations that a uniformed officer would
    likely have dismissed as "not worth the trouble". E.g., if your
    rear wheels have not ENTERED the intersection -- which often
    BEGINS some distance beyond the "stop line" -- then you are
    considered to have run the light. Even if you had been sitting
    at the light (left turn lane?) waiting for the intersection to clear.]

    Most normal UK stamps now have unique potentially traceable QR style codes on them. The forged ones do too (it was supposed to prevent that).

    They charge a premium price for signed for and tracked postal services. It is about the only thing they make money on now. You can see where the your parcel
    is sat rotting away due to their incompetence.

    There are several ways to obtain traceability as well as certification
    of delivery (up to requiring the receiving party to SIGN for the item).

    UK PO have priced themselves out of the market for letter post with most people
    and businesses using email instead. Virtual eCards at Xmas.

    Businesses would LIKE customers to switch to email. But, email is not
    secure (eavesdropping, counterfeiting) and the idea of any computer
    that your mail passes through (think gmail) READING the contents of
    your medical, financial transactions doesn't sit well with many people.

    [One of the firms we use THINKS they treat email securely -- by not
    disclosing your SSN, account number, etc. But, if the content is
    "This is to acknowledge your recent transfer of $XXXXXX to YYYYYY",
    don't they realize THAT leaks information, as well? Even "please
    log in to our secure portal to view an important message" indicates
    that you've "done something worth acknowledgment"]

    The only reason I have surface mail delivered is for utility bills and council
    tax to be able to prove who I am at banks (trivial to forge). UK doesn't have any coherent proof of ID system - it is a monumental joke.

    Using a single address present on two such (different) accounts
    is often used as proof of residence. But, we now have IDs that
    also purport to indicate our proof of LEGAL residence. And,
    passports (as well as passport CARDS).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Purgert@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Nov 20 17:50:47 2024
    On 2024-11-20, Don Y wrote:
    On 11/20/2024 8:04 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    The informed mail sure comes in hand to a friend of mine. Almost every
    week he has to chase down his mail. There are some similar road names
    in the county .
    About once a month my dad got some mail delivered to him that should go
    aout 10 miles away. He lived on White Farm road and the other was just
    White road.

    LOL. So, they should offer a service to PROVE that they screwed up?

    I can't see how taking on an extra cost -- for a FREE SERVICE -- helps
    an agency that is already losing money. It has to be (IMO) a foot
    in the door to get access to electronic document transfer (mail).

    The extra cost of ... what, exactly? A database row to send an email containing pictures that their automated processing system is already
    taking every day?


    --
    |_|O|_|
    |_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
    |O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1 E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Dan Purgert on Wed Nov 20 11:23:07 2024
    On 11/20/2024 10:50 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:
    On 2024-11-20, Don Y wrote:
    On 11/20/2024 8:04 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
    The informed mail sure comes in hand to a friend of mine. Almost every
    week he has to chase down his mail. There are some similar road names
    in the county .
    About once a month my dad got some mail delivered to him that should go
    aout 10 miles away. He lived on White Farm road and the other was just >>> White road.

    LOL. So, they should offer a service to PROVE that they screwed up?

    I can't see how taking on an extra cost -- for a FREE SERVICE -- helps
    an agency that is already losing money. It has to be (IMO) a foot
    in the door to get access to electronic document transfer (mail).

    The extra cost of ... what, exactly? A database row to send an email containing pictures that their automated processing system is already
    taking every day?

    And it takes NO staff to set that up and keep it operational?
    To ADVERTISE the service? To document it? To handle the inevitable
    complaints from customers who aren't getting the results they
    anticipated?

    The agency is already losing money. Do the above activities
    cost it $100,000/yr? $200,000? $1,000,000? Even if it is peanuts
    in terms of their annual operating expenses, it is still a cost.
    If there is no upside to their business (that translates into
    a revenue stream), then it just makes their bottom line look worse!

    Why don't businesses send bills/invoices via certified mail?
    After all, they are going to MAIL the item, anyway. Why not ADD
    the cost of certified delivery! (Ans: it does nothing to
    improve their bottom line and ADDS a cost)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Wed Nov 20 21:45:44 2024
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 21:57:47 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I think most mail is photographed as part of the address scanning
    and routing process. Humans don't do the sorting.

    The USPS does not open a letter or package and photograph the
    contents. The photo I receive from Informed Delivery is just the
    package shipping label or the front of the envelope. Most of the
    photos are B&W while magazines are in color.

    Note that Informed Delivery is also available for businesses: <https://www.usps.com/business/informed-delivery.htm>

    I found this document that describes how Informed Delivery might be
    beneficial to both the sender and recipient for an "interactive mail
    campaign". <https://www.usps.com/business/pdf/informed-delivery-interactive-campaign-guide.pdf>
    I skimmed the above PDF. I don't understand it and don't want to read
    it. It might be of interest to a junk mail service.


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Wed Nov 20 21:31:20 2024
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 21:57:47 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 11/19/2024 9:18 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 18:07:51 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I'm trying to figure out the business sense of this.
    It obviously costs something to implement. What is
    the expected (long-term?) payback? Do they expect to
    eventually allow people to READ their mail BEFORE it
    is delivered? Simply knowing that <something> is
    on its way doesn't really seem to be much in terms
    of added value...

    Informed Delivery
    <https://www.usps.com/manage/informed-delivery.htm>

    Informed Delivery can act as proof of delivery in case the mail or
    package is stolen.

    Can it similarly be used as evidence of process service?

    No. The process server has to identify the recipient and then hand
    them the subpoena or whatever.

    Unfortunately, the service costs me $216/year. My rural mailbox is
    located at an inconvenient distance from my house because the letter
    carrier will not deliver on my marginal owner maintained dirt road
    (even though UPS, FedEx and others do deliver).

    But, is the POBox really any closer?

    No. It's about 1.5 miles away from my house. (1 mile by winding
    mountain road and 0.5 miles on state Hwy 9. Besides being close, the
    advantage for me is that the PO Box is fairly secure.

    How does USPS expect The Masses the *want* this? "Oh, my VISA
    bill is on its way! I can hardly wait!"

    I don't know what the USPS expects from the service. I want it
    because it was the only way I could receive a warning that a
    potentially important document has arrived in my rural mailbox. If it
    is stolen after delivery, I have proof that something was delivered.

    Note that Informed Delivery is described as: <https://postalpro.usps.com/storages/2017-02/PBSAGuide.pdf>
    "The United States Postal Service® offers customers in approximately
    6,400 offices throughout the country the option of using a PBSA as an equivalent of the customer’s traditional P.O. Box-style address."

    There are "boxes" that can be rented from non-USPS providers. You
    get an address like:
    John Doe
    <address of facility>
    Suite <box number>
    <city> <state> <ZIP>

    These have some advantages:
    - pricing
    - no rule that the owner of the box be disclosed (as with USPS)
    - packages accepted (because the sender doesn't know it's a "box")
    - *possibly* better hours (though the boxes at our PO are open 24/7)
    - if you develop a rapport with the operator, they can accept
    and store perishable items for you

    They also can give the illusion that you have a "real business" and
    not just a "POBox" somewhere.

    [A friend gave me his business card. I noticed the address was just
    a mile or so from my home and decided to drop in to see him one day. >Surprising to see that it was just one of these retail outlets
    renting a (shoebox sized) "suite" to him!

    The nearest such mailbox service is 6.9 miles away in Scotts Valley.
    The next nearest is about 10 miles away in Santa Cruz (city).

    I appreciate you taking the time to pass judgment on my business
    practices. However, I was under the impression that you asked the
    question related to your business activities, not mine. What I
    provided is an example of what you might do with the service. You
    didn't ask about other options, so I didn't provide any.


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Wed Nov 20 23:23:29 2024
    On 11/20/2024 10:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 21:57:47 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I think most mail is photographed as part of the address scanning
    and routing process. Humans don't do the sorting.

    The USPS does not open a letter or package and photograph the
    contents.

    That wasn't what the above states. Clearly, the "address" that is
    scanned is on the outside of the package/envelope. "something" has to image the address label in order to identify, at the very least, the destination
    ZIP code to route the item to the next step in the process.

    As the location of the address on the item is not standardized,
    it makes sense that the entire object would be imaged in order to
    locate the information of interest.

    The photo I receive from Informed Delivery is just the
    package shipping label or the front of the envelope. Most of the
    photos are B&W while magazines are in color.

    Note that Informed Delivery is also available for businesses: <https://www.usps.com/business/informed-delivery.htm>

    I found this document that describes how Informed Delivery might be beneficial to both the sender and recipient for an "interactive mail campaign". <https://www.usps.com/business/pdf/informed-delivery-interactive-campaign-guide.pdf>
    I skimmed the above PDF. I don't understand it and don't want to read
    it. It might be of interest to a junk mail service.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Wed Nov 20 23:33:16 2024
    On 11/20/2024 10:31 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    Informed Delivery can act as proof of delivery in case the mail or
    package is stolen.

    Can it similarly be used as evidence of process service?

    No. The process server has to identify the recipient and then hand
    them the subpoena or whatever.

    Here, only a "responsible individual" at the location named
    on the service need "interact" with the process server.
    I.e., NOT opening the door but (verbally) engaging with the process
    server counts as being served; the documents can be placed outside
    the door.

    There are "boxes" that can be rented from non-USPS providers. You
    get an address like:
    John Doe
    <address of facility>
    Suite <box number>
    <city> <state> <ZIP>

    These have some advantages:
    - pricing
    - no rule that the owner of the box be disclosed (as with USPS)
    - packages accepted (because the sender doesn't know it's a "box")
    - *possibly* better hours (though the boxes at our PO are open 24/7)
    - if you develop a rapport with the operator, they can accept
    and store perishable items for you

    They also can give the illusion that you have a "real business" and
    not just a "POBox" somewhere.

    [A friend gave me his business card. I noticed the address was just
    a mile or so from my home and decided to drop in to see him one day.
    Surprising to see that it was just one of these retail outlets
    renting a (shoebox sized) "suite" to him!

    The nearest such mailbox service is 6.9 miles away in Scotts Valley.
    The next nearest is about 10 miles away in Santa Cruz (city).

    I appreciate you taking the time to pass judgment on my business

    I've done nothing of the sort -- and resent the implication.

    Rather, I have offered up anecdotes of how others have addressed
    this issue.

    The friend mentioned above lives some !12 miles from the "retail outlet",
    about 15 miles from me. Mail -- and packages -- are delivered to his residence, which is in a reasonably secure, upscale neighborhood
    with cooperative neighbors nearby.

    The "retail outlet" gives him a way of keeping his residence
    separate from his business transactions as well as the illusion
    of being something more than a one man shop (he actually has quite
    a large staff but no "place of business", per se, and likely doesn't
    want people knowing where he stores the heavy equipment that he uses)

    practices. However, I was under the impression that you asked the
    question related to your business activities, not mine. What I

    I have no interest in the service. I asked what value it MIGHT have
    as I can't imagine any upside to the USPS for undertaking it. I
    can't imagine it is going to encourage people to use USMail instead
    of email. Or, FedEx overnights.

    OTOH, they may envision CHARGING for the service in the future,
    letting customers self-select whether or not it is of value to them.

    provided is an example of what you might do with the service. You
    didn't ask about other options, so I didn't provide any.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Fri Nov 22 14:19:25 2024
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:23:29 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 11/20/2024 10:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 21:57:47 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I think most mail is photographed as part of the address scanning
    and routing process. Humans don't do the sorting.

    The USPS does not open a letter or package and photograph the
    contents.

    That wasn't what the above states.

    Please re-read what I wrote:
    "The USPS does *NOT* open a letter or package and photograph the
    contents".

    Clearly, the "address" that is
    scanned is on the outside of the package/envelope. "something" has to image >the address label in order to identify, at the very least, the destination >ZIP code to route the item to the next step in the process.

    Yes. It's the tracking number that the USPS stamps on every 1st class
    mail and package. I'm not sure but I don't think they offer tracking
    services to bulk mail users. The codes and labels have changed over
    the years:
    "USPS eliminating legacy codes, revising forms" <https://news.usps.com/2023/01/17/service-update-3/>
    With the tracking number, the USPS can identify the source and
    destination without having to open the envelope or package.

    Note that the intelligent mail barcode does not include the
    destination address, which is on a different label. <https://www.tension.com/blogs/how-read-intelligent-mail-barcode-imb/>

    As the location of the address on the item is not standardized,
    it makes sense that the entire object would be imaged in order to
    locate the information of interest.

    The automatic mail sorters can read (using OCR) an amazing variety of
    scribbled and illegible addresses. For the few addresses that can't
    be read, a photo of the illegible address on the letter or package is
    sent to a remote encoding center, where real live humans perform the
    functions of the reading the address and printing a readable bar code
    on the package. I'm not sure what happens if an address can't be
    found. I suspect there may be some special handling involved that
    doesn't involved opening the package or photographing all 6 sides of
    the box.

    According to:
    <https://facts.usps.com/systems-at-work/>
    the USPS has 8,500 mail processing machines of various flavors.
    Presumably, bar code readers and printers, to determine the routing,
    are involved with every mail sorting machine.

    The photo I receive from Informed Delivery is just the
    package shipping label or the front of the envelope. Most of the
    photos are B&W while magazines are in color.

    Note that Informed Delivery is also available for businesses:
    <https://www.usps.com/business/informed-delivery.htm>

    I found this document that describes how Informed Delivery might be
    beneficial to both the sender and recipient for an "interactive mail
    campaign".
    <https://www.usps.com/business/pdf/informed-delivery-interactive-campaign-guide.pdf>
    I skimmed the above PDF. I don't understand it and don't want to read
    it. It might be of interest to a junk mail service.



    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Jeff Liebermann on Fri Nov 22 17:00:26 2024
    On 11/22/2024 3:19 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Wed, 20 Nov 2024 23:23:29 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    On 11/20/2024 10:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Nov 2024 21:57:47 -0700, Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

    I think most mail is photographed as part of the address scanning
    and routing process. Humans don't do the sorting.

    The USPS does not open a letter or package and photograph the
    contents.

    That wasn't what the above states.

    Please re-read what I wrote:
    "The USPS does *NOT* open a letter or package and photograph the
    contents".

    And *I* wrote that it photographs the MAIL. Its contents
    were not mentioned.

    Clearly, the "address" that is
    scanned is on the outside of the package/envelope. "something" has to image >> the address label in order to identify, at the very least, the destination >> ZIP code to route the item to the next step in the process.

    Yes. It's the tracking number that the USPS stamps on every 1st class
    mail and package. I'm not sure but I don't think they offer tracking services to bulk mail users. The codes and labels have changed over
    the years:
    "USPS eliminating legacy codes, revising forms" <https://news.usps.com/2023/01/17/service-update-3/>
    With the tracking number, the USPS can identify the source and
    destination without having to open the envelope or package.

    Tracking is concerned with the sender. The photographing of mail
    is primarily there to assist in the delivery -- recipient.

    Note that the intelligent mail barcode does not include the
    destination address, which is on a different label. <https://www.tension.com/blogs/how-read-intelligent-mail-barcode-imb/>

    Their initial concern is getting the piece of mail to the correct
    "delivery post office".

    One there, mail is further separated by route (hence the financial
    incentive to bulk mailers to presort their mail, by route -- instead
    of just zip code or zip+4). The individual letter carriers then
    "case" the mail (sort it into a set of miniature mailboxes, one per
    address) so that it can be loaded into trays in "route order".

    [The individual letter carrier often has control over the order in
    which he/she travels their "route". The order of the boxes in
    the "casing" step has to reflect this, "somehow"]

    As the location of the address on the item is not standardized,
    it makes sense that the entire object would be imaged in order to
    locate the information of interest.

    The automatic mail sorters can read (using OCR) an amazing variety of scribbled and illegible addresses. For the few addresses that can't
    be read, a photo of the illegible address on the letter or package is
    sent to a remote encoding center, where real live humans perform the functions of the reading the address and printing a readable bar code

    Yes. There is a cost to this (USPS employees don't work for minimum
    wage). Hence the value of improving the OCR reliability AND the
    processing speed.

    on the package. I'm not sure what happens if an address can't be
    found. I suspect there may be some special handling involved that
    doesn't involved opening the package or photographing all 6 sides of
    the box.

    According to:
    <https://facts.usps.com/systems-at-work/>
    the USPS has 8,500 mail processing machines of various flavors.
    Presumably, bar code readers and printers, to determine the routing,
    are involved with every mail sorting machine.

    And, for "informed delivery" each of those distributed sites
    must be managed and maintained to ensure mail from ANY
    sender to any recipient can be so "informed".

    I.e., this has to cost them a fair bit of money, even if they
    have the images available as a side-effect from their OCR
    capabilities (without the informed delivery requirement, they
    could discard those images as soon as the ZIP code bar code
    has been placed on the parcel).

    What if their server's initial attempt to contact the target
    MX host fails? How long will they keep the notification
    queued? If it is to be used as proof of sending, then
    that would need to be longer than the expected delivery date!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)