Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
On 10/18/2024 12:33 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg/220px- Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg>
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise,
particularly at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some
such mechanism and if there is, it must be present by default for all
schematics one attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
They can be a PITA to start in LTSpice, like this old chestnut really
doesn't want to run at all IME in LT but is fine on a breadboard:
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
On 10/18/2024 12:33 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one
attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
They can be a PITA to start in LTSpice, like this old chestnut really
doesn't want to run at all IME in LT but is fine on a breadboard:
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg/220px-Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg>
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
both transistors saturated.
Return the base resistors to the collectors of their respective
transistors instead of the +ve rail. That will prevent them from
sarurating and will ensure reliable starting.
On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 20:17:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
both transistors saturated.
Return the base resistors to the collectors of their respective
transistors instead of the +ve rail. That will prevent them from >sarurating and will ensure reliable starting.
Right. It makes the transistors go linear if it's not oscillating.
Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
both transistors saturated.
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 20:17:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:
john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
[...]
Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
both transistors saturated.
Return the base resistors to the collectors of their respective
transistors instead of the +ve rail. That will prevent them from
sarurating and will ensure reliable starting.
Right. It makes the transistors go linear if it's not oscillating.
Yes, I discovered that in the early 1970's when I first started using >multivibrators. I don't remember seeing it documented anywhere.
On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom ><cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
Oscillators in LT Spice often need to be goosed with an injected pulse
or some initial condition setting, if they are to start in a tolerable
time, or at all.
Or skip the initial conditions solution, or bring up the power
supplies after sim start.
In a multivibrator, some tiny component value tweak can make the
asymmetry to kick things off.
Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
both transistors saturated.
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
On 10/18/2024 12:33 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one
attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
They can be a PITA to start in LTSpice, like this old chestnut really
doesn't want to run at all IME in LT but is fine on a breadboard:
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg/220px-Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg>
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:08:15 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
<cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>> at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>> and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one
attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
Oscillators in LT Spice often need to be goosed with an injected pulse
or some initial condition setting, if they are to start in a tolerable
time, or at all.
Or skip the initial conditions solution, or bring up the power
supplies after sim start.
In a multivibrator, some tiny component value tweak can make the
asymmetry to kick things off.
Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
both transistors saturated.
The supply coming up should be enough of a goose to start the
oscillator.
boB
On 10/18/2024 12:33 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one
attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
They can be a PITA to start in LTSpice, like this old chestnut really
doesn't want to run at all IME in LT but is fine on a breadboard:
<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg/220px-Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg>
On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor >Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms
lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
that do the same and better, just display the curves.
ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements.
Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.
Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?
On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor >>Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms >>lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
that do the same and better, just display the curves.
ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements.
Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >>you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.
Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?
It's sometimes hard to understand your pun spelling meanings, maybe
because you are not a native English speaker. Foreigners who try to
pun in English are often ludicrous. I was at a giant gathering at a US >national lab and some French bigwig tried to pun in English. There
were about 2000 instances of dead silence. I almost felt sorry for
him.
LT Spice is wonderful. Ususlly I can go straight to a production PC^^^^^^
board from a good sim.
On a sunny day (Sat, 19 Oct 2024 07:39:16 -0700) it happened john larkin ><JL@gct.com> wrote in <5og7hjhgc0am8m1lqmfhfufsok44en4bc5@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor >>>Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>>>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms >>>lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
that do the same and better, just display the curves.
ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements. >>>Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >>>you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.
Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?
It's sometimes hard to understand your pun spelling meanings, maybe
because you are not a native English speaker. Foreigners who try to
pun in English are often ludicrous. I was at a giant gathering at a US >>national lab and some French bigwig tried to pun in English. There
were about 2000 instances of dead silence. I almost felt sorry for
him.
Being single language like many 'merricans limits IQ and comprehension in a big way.
On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 15:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 19 Oct 2024 07:39:16 -0700) it happened john larkin
<JL@gct.com> wrote in <5og7hjhgc0am8m1lqmfhfufsok44en4bc5@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor
Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:
Being single language like many 'merricans limits IQ and comprehension in a big way.
I have noticed that the Dutch tend to be cold and rude.
The food is mediocre too.
ASML is the biggie in semi fab, but they bought the technology from
Cymer.
On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:08:15 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom >><cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
Oscillators in LT Spice often need to be goosed with an injected pulse
or some initial condition setting, if they are to start in a tolerable >>time, or at all.
Or skip the initial conditions solution, or bring up the power
supplies after sim start.
In a multivibrator, some tiny component value tweak can make the
asymmetry to kick things off.
Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
both transistors saturated.
The supply coming up should be enough of a goose to start the
oscillator.
On a sunny day (Sat, 19 Oct 2024 07:39:16 -0700) it happened john larkin ><JL@gct.com> wrote in <5og7hjhgc0am8m1lqmfhfufsok44en4bc5@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor >>>Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>>>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms >>>lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
that do the same and better, just display the curves.
ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements. >>>Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >>>you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.
Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?
It's sometimes hard to understand your pun spelling meanings, maybe
because you are not a native English speaker. Foreigners who try to
pun in English are often ludicrous. I was at a giant gathering at a US >>national lab and some French bigwig tried to pun in English. There
were about 2000 instances of dead silence. I almost felt sorry for
him.
Being single language like many 'merricans limits IQ and comprehension in a big way.
LT Spice is wonderful. Ususlly I can go straight to a production PC^^^^^^
board from a good sim.
I am multi language, sometimes I think in Dutch, sometimes in Englitch, sometimes in German
and was even singing a French song yesterday..
It is very helpful when scanning the media...
Dutch French English and German are at least required in high school here. >When I was still designing for a company there were no ElTeaSpices
Don't drink much tea anyways these days, not even coffee, chocolate yes.
On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 15:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 19 Oct 2024 07:39:16 -0700) it happened john larkin
<JL@gct.com> wrote in <5og7hjhgc0am8m1lqmfhfufsok44en4bc5@4ax.com>:
On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor
Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>
Gentlemen,
I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>>> into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>>> at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>>> and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>>> attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?
Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms
lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
that do the same and better, just display the curves.
ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements.
Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >>>> you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.
Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?
It's sometimes hard to understand your pun spelling meanings, maybe
because you are not a native English speaker. Foreigners who try to
pun in English are often ludicrous. I was at a giant gathering at a US
national lab and some French bigwig tried to pun in English. There
were about 2000 instances of dead silence. I almost felt sorry for
him.
Being single language like many 'merricans limits IQ and comprehension in a big way.
LT Spice is wonderful. Usually I can go straight to a production PC ^^^^^^
board from a good sim.
I am multi language, sometimes I think in Dutch, sometimes in English, sometimes in German
and was even singing a French song yesterday..
It is very helpful when scanning the media...
Dutch French English and German are at least required in high school here. >> When I was still designing for a company there were no lLTSpice.
Don't drink much tea anyways these days, not even coffee, chocolate yes.
I'm working with a PCB layout guy who is great with placement and
routing and such, but terrible at following written directions and
with spelling and reference designator placement. In other words, very
visual but not very verbal. Not a native English speaker.
I suspect that the Roman character set and decimal number notation
affect the way people think and get some credit for the Enlightment
and for the technical progress of western countries.
How do Chinese companies do their reference designators? All the stuff
I've seen looks very western, not Chinese characters, except that the prefixes are arbitrary, like TR for transistor, or TR for transformer, whatever.
The Chinese and Japanese and some other char sets need high resolution
too. Our smallest ref desigs are 50 mils high, which works well with
modern inkjet printing.
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