• Re: Oscillators in LTspice

    From bitrex@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Fri Oct 18 12:38:42 2024
    On 10/18/2024 12:33 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
    at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
    and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    They can be a PITA to start in LTSpice, like this old chestnut really
    doesn't want to run at all IME in LT but is fine on a breadboard:

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg/220px-Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Oct 18 16:56:09 2024
    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 12:38:42 -0400, bitrex wrote:

    On 10/18/2024 12:33 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
    simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise,
    particularly at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some
    such mechanism and if there is, it must be present by default for all
    schematics one attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    They can be a PITA to start in LTSpice, like this old chestnut really
    doesn't want to run at all IME in LT but is fine on a breadboard:

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/
    Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg/220px- Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg>

    That's basically an RC multivibrator isn't it? As such there's no reason
    why it shouldn't function in any flavour of Spice in addition to real
    life. My question was more in relation to the simulation of LC
    oscillators.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to cd999666@notformail.com on Fri Oct 18 10:08:15 2024
    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
    at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
    and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Oscillators in LT Spice often need to be goosed with an injected pulse
    or some initial condition setting, if they are to start in a tolerable
    time, or at all.

    Or skip the initial conditions solution, or bring up the power
    supplies after sim start.

    In a multivibrator, some tiny component value tweak can make the
    asymmetry to kick things off.

    Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
    both transistors saturated.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 18 16:33:22 2024
    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
    simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
    at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
    and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one
    attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to bitrex on Fri Oct 18 19:52:44 2024
    On 10/18/24 18:38, bitrex wrote:
    On 10/18/2024 12:33 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
    simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
    at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
    and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one
    attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    They can be a PITA to start in LTSpice, like this old chestnut really
    doesn't want to run at all IME in LT but is fine on a breadboard:

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg/220px-Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg>

    I tweaked it a bit, but the simulation below works.

    Jeroen Belleman


    Version 4
    SHEET 1 1348 680
    WIRE 0 -48 -160 -48
    WIRE 160 -48 0 -48
    WIRE 336 -48 160 -48
    WIRE 0 16 0 -48
    WIRE 160 16 160 -48
    WIRE 336 80 336 -48
    WIRE 160 128 160 96
    WIRE 272 128 160 128
    WIRE -160 176 -160 -48
    WIRE 160 176 160 128
    WIRE 0 224 0 96
    WIRE 64 224 0 224
    WIRE 96 224 64 224
    WIRE -160 288 -160 256
    WIRE 64 304 64 224
    WIRE 96 304 64 304
    WIRE 208 304 96 304
    WIRE 336 304 336 176
    WIRE 336 304 272 304
    WIRE 384 304 336 304
    WIRE 416 304 384 304
    WIRE 0 320 0 224
    WIRE 336 352 336 304
    WIRE 0 464 0 400
    WIRE 160 464 160 272
    WIRE 336 464 336 432
    FLAG 336 464 0
    FLAG 160 464 0
    FLAG 0 464 0
    FLAG -160 288 0
    FLAG 384 304 out
    FLAG 96 304 b
    SYMBOL npn 96 176 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 144 0 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 1k
    SYMBOL pnp 272 176 M180
    SYMATTR InstName Q2
    SYMATTR Value 2N3906
    SYMBOL cap 272 288 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 22µ
    SYMBOL res 320 336 R0
    SYMATTR InstName RL
    SYMATTR Value 30
    SYMBOL res -16 304 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 56k
    SYMBOL res -16 0 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 220k
    SYMBOL voltage -160 160 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMATTR Value PWL(0 0 1u 9)
    TEXT -192 400 Left 2 !.tran 10
    TEXT -192 448 Left 2 !.ic v(b)=0
    TEXT 496 0 Left 2 ;Flasher, according to Forrest Mims.
    TEXT 496 48 Left 2 ;Jeroen Belleman - 20241018

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Fri Oct 18 12:46:50 2024
    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 20:17:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    [...]

    Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
    both transistors saturated.

    Return the base resistors to the collectors of their respective
    transistors instead of the +ve rail. That will prevent them from
    sarurating and will ensure reliable starting.

    Right. It makes the transistors go linear if it's not oscillating.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Oct 18 20:52:10 2024
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 20:17:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    [...]

    Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
    both transistors saturated.

    Return the base resistors to the collectors of their respective
    transistors instead of the +ve rail. That will prevent them from >sarurating and will ensure reliable starting.

    Right. It makes the transistors go linear if it's not oscillating.

    Yes, I discovered that in the early 1970's when I first started using multivibrators. I don't remember seeing it documented anywhere.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Oct 18 20:17:19 2024
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    [...]

    Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
    both transistors saturated.

    Return the base resistors to the collectors of their respective
    transistors instead of the +ve rail. That will prevent them from
    sarurating and will ensure reliable starting.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Fri Oct 18 13:20:57 2024
    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 20:52:10 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 20:17:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    [...]

    Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
    both transistors saturated.

    Return the base resistors to the collectors of their respective
    transistors instead of the +ve rail. That will prevent them from
    sarurating and will ensure reliable starting.

    Right. It makes the transistors go linear if it's not oscillating.

    Yes, I discovered that in the early 1970's when I first started using >multivibrators. I don't remember seeing it documented anywhere.

    I invented that too! Roughly the same time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From boB@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 18 20:24:53 2024
    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:08:15 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom ><cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Oscillators in LT Spice often need to be goosed with an injected pulse
    or some initial condition setting, if they are to start in a tolerable
    time, or at all.

    Or skip the initial conditions solution, or bring up the power
    supplies after sim start.

    In a multivibrator, some tiny component value tweak can make the
    asymmetry to kick things off.

    Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
    both transistors saturated.

    The supply coming up should be enough of a goose to start the
    oscillator.

    boB

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Sat Oct 19 15:26:20 2024
    On 19/10/2024 3:33 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
    at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
    and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    They don't usually self-start. Rounding errors in the arithmetic do act
    as a source of wide-band noise, but for any practical simulation you set
    up the initial conditions to launch the oscillation at an appreciable
    fraction of the steady state amplitude.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydhey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to user@example.net on Sat Oct 19 05:38:45 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 12:38:42 -0400) it happened bitrex <user@example.net> wrote in <67128f12$1$2873018$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:

    On 10/18/2024 12:33 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
    simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
    at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
    and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one
    attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    They can be a PITA to start in LTSpice, like this old chestnut really
    doesn't want to run at all IME in LT but is fine on a breadboard:

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg/220px-Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg>

    Nice, I would perhaps use a UJT for short flashes.
    Still have some..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Doom on Sat Oct 19 05:33:51 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:

    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
    at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
    and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
    Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms
    lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
    Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
    that do the same and better, just display the curves.

    ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
    Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
    I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
    And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
    You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements.
    Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those,
    you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
    An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.

    Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to boB on Sat Oct 19 11:41:43 2024
    boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:08:15 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom
    <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
    simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>> at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>> and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one
    attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Oscillators in LT Spice often need to be goosed with an injected pulse
    or some initial condition setting, if they are to start in a tolerable
    time, or at all.

    Or skip the initial conditions solution, or bring up the power
    supplies after sim start.

    In a multivibrator, some tiny component value tweak can make the
    asymmetry to kick things off.

    Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
    both transistors saturated.

    The supply coming up should be enough of a goose to start the
    oscillator.

    boB





    That’s actually the problem—some circuits with lockup states will work fine on the bench and only fail in the field, due e. g. to wimpier supplies and brownouts.

    For LC and crystal oscillators, startup problems occur when the
    small-signal (class A) gain is too low. Circuits with that problem start
    up fine if the turn-on transient is large and sharp enough, but not
    otherwise.

    In a simulation, the very small-scale nonlinearity of rounding error can
    make the circuit seem to have startup problems that the real circuit
    doesn’t, sort of like how you can stand an egg on end if you’re careful. (Or sprinkle the bar with salt first, but I digress. )

    t’s perfectly legit to goose an oscillator simulation as long as it’s firmly in the small-signal limit, i.e. the goose is << kT/e, so that it’s always class A.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to bitrex on Sat Oct 19 07:23:26 2024
    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 12:38:42 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

    On 10/18/2024 12:33 PM, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
    simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something
    into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly
    at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism
    and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one
    attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    They can be a PITA to start in LTSpice, like this old chestnut really
    doesn't want to run at all IME in LT but is fine on a breadboard:

    <https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/83/Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg/220px-Forrest_Mims_hand_drawn_circuit_1983.jpg>

    A classic blunder: turn the trimpot all the way and blow out the
    transistor.

    Turnoff can zener the base too, for long-term damage.

    How many mistakes can be made in a circuit that has N components?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 19 07:39:16 2024
    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor >Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:

    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
    Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms
    lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
    Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
    that do the same and better, just display the curves.

    ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
    Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
    I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
    And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
    You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements.
    Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
    An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.

    Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?

    It's sometimes hard to understand your pun spelling meanings, maybe
    because you are not a native English speaker. Foreigners who try to
    pun in English are often ludicrous. I was at a giant gathering at a US
    national lab and some French bigwig tried to pun in English. There
    were about 2000 instances of dead silence. I almost felt sorry for
    him.

    LT Spice is wonderful. Ususlly I can go straight to a production PC
    board from a good sim.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to JL@gct.com on Sat Oct 19 15:20:49 2024
    On a sunny day (Sat, 19 Oct 2024 07:39:16 -0700) it happened john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote in <5og7hjhgc0am8m1lqmfhfufsok44en4bc5@4ax.com>:

    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor >>Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:

    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
    Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms >>lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
    Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
    that do the same and better, just display the curves.

    ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
    Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
    I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
    And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
    You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements.
    Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >>you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
    An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.

    Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?

    It's sometimes hard to understand your pun spelling meanings, maybe
    because you are not a native English speaker. Foreigners who try to
    pun in English are often ludicrous. I was at a giant gathering at a US >national lab and some French bigwig tried to pun in English. There
    were about 2000 instances of dead silence. I almost felt sorry for
    him.


    Being single language like many 'merricans limits IQ and comprehension in a big way.


    LT Spice is wonderful. Ususlly I can go straight to a production PC
    ^^^^^^
    board from a good sim.

    I am multi language, sometimes I think in Dutch, sometimes in Englitch, sometimes in German
    and was even singing a French song yesterday..
    It is very helpful when scanning the media...

    Dutch French English and German are at least required in high school here.
    When I was still designing for a company there were no ElTeaSpices
    Don't drink much tea anyways these days, not even coffee, chocolate yes.

    Things I make just work first time...
    Even code.. Even asm.
    It's (electronic design) a bit like cooking, just mix the ingredians, try something new, taste it.
    The basics have never changed...
    It's about electrons

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 21 12:09:44 2024
    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 15:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sat, 19 Oct 2024 07:39:16 -0700) it happened john larkin ><JL@gct.com> wrote in <5og7hjhgc0am8m1lqmfhfufsok44en4bc5@4ax.com>:

    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor >>>Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:

    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>>>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
    Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms >>>lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
    Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
    that do the same and better, just display the curves.

    ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
    Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
    I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
    And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
    You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements. >>>Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >>>you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
    An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.

    Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?

    It's sometimes hard to understand your pun spelling meanings, maybe
    because you are not a native English speaker. Foreigners who try to
    pun in English are often ludicrous. I was at a giant gathering at a US >>national lab and some French bigwig tried to pun in English. There
    were about 2000 instances of dead silence. I almost felt sorry for
    him.


    Being single language like many 'merricans limits IQ and comprehension in a big way.


    I have noticed that the Dutch tend to be cold and rude.

    The food is medicre too.

    ASML is the biggie in semi fab, but they bought the technology from
    Cymer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Oct 23 13:17:24 2024
    On 22/10/2024 6:09 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 15:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sat, 19 Oct 2024 07:39:16 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <5og7hjhgc0am8m1lqmfhfufsok44en4bc5@4ax.com>:

    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor
    Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    Being single language like many 'merricans limits IQ and comprehension in a big way.


    I have noticed that the Dutch tend to be cold and rude.

    The do tend to be rational and direct. If you expect to be flattered
    non-stop you might find that rude.

    My experience in the Netherlands was that they were mostly warm and
    friendly. I once got dragged into some tricky correspondence with UK
    suppliers, to add some native speaker polish to the English language
    letters we were sending them, and got told off for trying to express the demands more diplomatically (strange as that may sound).

    The food is mediocre too.

    There are exceptions, as there are even in the USA.

    ASML is the biggie in semi fab, but they bought the technology from
    Cymer.

    And made it work. That seems to have taken some help from Phil Hobbs.

    I'm not fond of ASML - they wouldn't hire me when I was job-hunting in
    the Netherlands. It's a Philips spin-off and their human factors
    department has the same unjustified high opinion of their own expertise
    as every other Philips human factors department.

    Philips has got a lot of high technology into the market - the Compact (optical) Disk format is an obvious example - and their pure research
    mob were in the Bell Labs class (if quite a bit smaller).

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to boB on Thu Oct 24 02:37:42 2024
    On 2024-10-19, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:
    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:08:15 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC), Cursitor Doom >><cd999666@notformail.com> wrote:

    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Oscillators in LT Spice often need to be goosed with an injected pulse
    or some initial condition setting, if they are to start in a tolerable >>time, or at all.

    Or skip the initial conditions solution, or bring up the power
    supplies after sim start.

    In a multivibrator, some tiny component value tweak can make the
    asymmetry to kick things off.

    Actually, the classic astable mv usually has a genuine hangup state,
    both transistors saturated.

    The supply coming up should be enough of a goose to start the
    oscillator.

    The supply may be slow to come up - perhaps it's a NiMH cell with a photovoltaic panel charging it.

    --
    Jasen.
    🇺🇦 Слава Україні

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 24 13:16:07 2024
    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 15:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sat, 19 Oct 2024 07:39:16 -0700) it happened john larkin ><JL@gct.com> wrote in <5og7hjhgc0am8m1lqmfhfufsok44en4bc5@4ax.com>:

    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor >>>Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>:

    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice >>>>simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>>into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>>at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>>and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>>attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
    Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms >>>lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
    Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
    that do the same and better, just display the curves.

    ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
    Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
    I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
    And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
    You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements. >>>Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >>>you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
    An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.

    Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?

    It's sometimes hard to understand your pun spelling meanings, maybe
    because you are not a native English speaker. Foreigners who try to
    pun in English are often ludicrous. I was at a giant gathering at a US >>national lab and some French bigwig tried to pun in English. There
    were about 2000 instances of dead silence. I almost felt sorry for
    him.


    Being single language like many 'merricans limits IQ and comprehension in a big way.


    LT Spice is wonderful. Ususlly I can go straight to a production PC
    ^^^^^^
    board from a good sim.

    I am multi language, sometimes I think in Dutch, sometimes in Englitch, sometimes in German
    and was even singing a French song yesterday..
    It is very helpful when scanning the media...

    Dutch French English and German are at least required in high school here. >When I was still designing for a company there were no ElTeaSpices
    Don't drink much tea anyways these days, not even coffee, chocolate yes.


    I'm working with a PCB layout guy who is great with placement and
    routing and such, but terrible at following written directions and
    with spelling and reference designator placement. In other words, very
    visual but not very verbal. Not a native English speaker.

    I suspect that the Roman character set and decimal number notation
    affect the way people think and get some credit for the Enlightment
    and for the technical progress of western countries.

    How do Chinese companies do their reference designators? All the stuff
    I've seen looks very western, not Chinese characters, except that the
    prefixes are arbitrary, like TR for transistor, or TR for transformer, whatever.

    The chinese and japanese and some other char sets need high resolution
    too. Our smallest ref desigs are 50 mils high, which works well with
    modern inkjet printing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Oct 25 16:25:46 2024
    On 25/10/2024 7:16 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 15:20:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sat, 19 Oct 2024 07:39:16 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <5og7hjhgc0am8m1lqmfhfufsok44en4bc5@4ax.com>:

    On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 05:33:51 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 18 Oct 2024 16:33:22 -0000 (UTC)) it happened Cursitor
    Doom <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in <veu2ki$3cmo3$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>
    Gentlemen,

    I've never spiced an oscillator AFAICR. Do they self-start in spice
    simulators (LT in particular)? IOW, did Mike Engleheart build something >>>>> into the engine which generates wideband 'background' noise, particularly >>>>> at 'power up' as it were? I'm assuming there must be some such mechanism >>>>> and if there is, it must be present by default for all schematics one >>>>> attempts to simulate and not just oscillators?

    Often, if not always, it is simpler to just solder a circuit together and measure it, than that ElTeaSpites jive.
    Tried it, have it on a Linux PC, it did not give the right waveforms
    lacking accurate models, and environment awareness. peeseebee, housing, cables, what not.
    Used it for some LF filters as that saves math, but there are much simpler filter design programs
    that do the same and better, just display the curves.

    ElTeaSpites has become a religion...
    Just use a soldering iron and a good scope, maybe also a spectrum analyzer and you have certainty.
    I have done LF and GHz stuff that all works that way,
    And you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    ElTeaSpites sucks anyways when you add microcontrollers and those are everywhere,
    You should be OK with all your boat anchors doing good measurements.
    Modern stuff uses chips that give very limited info about what's in those, >>>> you will need the right model for ElTeaSpites (those are always incomplete) and need to measure anyways.
    Just test small sub-circuits and put it all together.
    An alternative would perhaps be to as AI to design stuff.. save a lot of the time to get familiar with the ElTeaSpites.

    Is that where it goes for electronics design? AI?

    It's sometimes hard to understand your pun spelling meanings, maybe
    because you are not a native English speaker. Foreigners who try to
    pun in English are often ludicrous. I was at a giant gathering at a US
    national lab and some French bigwig tried to pun in English. There
    were about 2000 instances of dead silence. I almost felt sorry for
    him.

    Being single language like many 'merricans limits IQ and comprehension in a big way.


    LT Spice is wonderful. Usually I can go straight to a production PC ^^^^^^
    board from a good sim.

    I am multi language, sometimes I think in Dutch, sometimes in English, sometimes in German
    and was even singing a French song yesterday..
    It is very helpful when scanning the media...

    Dutch French English and German are at least required in high school here. >> When I was still designing for a company there were no lLTSpice.
    Don't drink much tea anyways these days, not even coffee, chocolate yes.

    I'm working with a PCB layout guy who is great with placement and
    routing and such, but terrible at following written directions and
    with spelling and reference designator placement. In other words, very
    visual but not very verbal. Not a native English speaker.

    There are native speakers of English who are more visual than verbal.

    I knew one brilliant engineer who was so verbal that he couldn't see the
    point of spelling "their","there" and "they're" differently because they
    were all pronounced indentically. I once offered to check his text for
    him, and he rejected the offer because he couldn't see the point.

    I suspect that the Roman character set and decimal number notation
    affect the way people think and get some credit for the Enlightment
    and for the technical progress of western countries.

    Not an opinion shared by the kind of visual psychologists who think
    about that kind of stuff.

    How do Chinese companies do their reference designators? All the stuff
    I've seen looks very western, not Chinese characters, except that the prefixes are arbitrary, like TR for transistor, or TR for transformer, whatever.

    The Chinese and Japanese and some other char sets need high resolution
    too. Our smallest ref desigs are 50 mils high, which works well with
    modern inkjet printing.

    Korea, Thailand, and the Arab countries all have their own character
    sets. Japan has three. The Cyrillic alphabet is pretty close to Latin
    and Greek (because it evolved from them).

    The basic fact that human languages all use a limited number of phonemes
    (drawn from a common stock of about 200 which pretty much every human
    can produce and distinguish) pretty much defines how writing works.

    The practical details get messy.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)