• Re: Low voltage zener diodes

    From Arie de Muijnck@21:1/5 to Pimpom on Tue Oct 8 11:46:04 2024
    On 2024-10-08 11:24, Pimpom wrote:
    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are they still the same?

    Often, below 3V3, they were just a series chain of normal diodes.
    Nowadays a LED, with a sharp knee, works better if the voltage matches.
    Just beware using them at very low currents - they are light sensitive.

    Arie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerhard Hoffmann@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 8 12:08:20 2024
    Am 08.10.24 um 11:24 schrieb Pimpom:
    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    yes, that's true. At > 5V they are really avalanche diodes. Around 5-7V
    it is a mix. Zeners & avalanche diodes have a different TC, and it
    compensates at around 6V.

    You can see the onset of avalanche behavior in the noise spectrum with
    rising voltage. True Zeners are much better here. For the BZX84 family:

    < https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/24411798996/in/album-72157662535945536
    >

    Prof. Zener even sued the industry not to use his name for avalanche
    thingies because it was not "his" effect. They settled on Z-Diodes
    pretending it was for the V/I curve. But in the end the ghost was out of
    the bottle.

    Gerhard

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  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 8 14:54:39 2024
    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Pimpom@invalid.invalid on Tue Oct 8 13:55:07 2024
    On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Oct 2024 14:54:39 +0530) it happened Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <sT6NO.84691$Xx4a.59580@fx11.ams1>:

    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    Yes.
    These days there are 'bandgap' references, those are about 1.25V,
    extr3mely stable.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandgap_voltage_reference
    You can also use a chip like TL431 (google TL431.pdf)
    to make a reference from about 2.5 V upwards
    to whatever you like with 2 resistors as voltage devider.
    IIRC it uses that bandgap reference principle.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TL431#Applications

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 8 07:48:16 2024
    On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 14:54:39 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    Yup. Soft knees and terrible tempcos.

    Bandgaps like LM4040 are great. They get down to 0.1% and 50 PPM/deg
    C. 1.2 to 5 volts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 8 08:50:47 2024
    On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 12:08:20 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
    wrote:

    Am 08.10.24 um 11:24 schrieb Pimpom:
    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    yes, that's true. At > 5V they are really avalanche diodes. Around 5-7V
    it is a mix. Zeners & avalanche diodes have a different TC, and it >compensates at around 6V.

    You can see the onset of avalanche behavior in the noise spectrum with
    rising voltage. True Zeners are much better here. For the BZX84 family:

    < >https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/24411798996/in/album-72157662535945536
    >

    Prof. Zener even sued the industry not to use his name for avalanche
    thingies because it was not "his" effect. They settled on Z-Diodes
    pretending it was for the V/I curve. But in the end the ghost was out of
    the bottle.

    Gerhard




    Everybody calls them all zeners now.

    You can actually get a zener to oscillate.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/uvbj2tmrlitfv233ncamr/Zener_Noise.pdf?rlkey=bqxynlx8g1r6b6cfiimfaejuo&raw=1

    Expensive noise diodes are probably just selected zeners.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 8 11:20:51 2024
    On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 11:46:04 +0200, Arie de Muijnck <noreply@ademu.nl>
    wrote:

    On 2024-10-08 11:24, Pimpom wrote:
    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are they still the same?

    Often, below 3V3, they were just a series chain of normal diodes.
    Nowadays a LED, with a sharp knee, works better if the voltage matches.
    Just beware using them at very low currents - they are light sensitive.

    Arie

    An LED and a bipolar transistor and a source resistor can make a
    near-zero tempco current source. With free light!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Oct 9 00:54:37 2024
    On 08-10-2024 11:50 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 11:46:04 +0200, Arie de Muijnck <noreply@ademu.nl>
    wrote:

    On 2024-10-08 11:24, Pimpom wrote:
    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are they still the same?

    Often, below 3V3, they were just a series chain of normal diodes.
    Nowadays a LED, with a sharp knee, works better if the voltage matches.
    Just beware using them at very low currents - they are light sensitive.

    Arie

    An LED and a bipolar transistor and a source resistor can make a
    near-zero tempco current source. With free light!


    Yeah, I like making a part serve a dual role. It's not just the money,
    it's the elegance.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Wed Oct 9 01:40:46 2024
    On 08-10-2024 07:25 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Oct 2024 14:54:39 +0530) it happened Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <sT6NO.84691$Xx4a.59580@fx11.ams1>:

    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    Yes.
    These days there are 'bandgap' references, those are about 1.25V,
    extr3mely stable.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandgap_voltage_reference
    You can also use a chip like TL431 (google TL431.pdf)
    to make a reference from about 2.5 V upwards
    to whatever you like with 2 resistors as voltage devider.
    IIRC it uses that bandgap reference principle.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TL431#Applications


    I have a bunch of TL431, LM385 (1.25, 2.5 & adj.) and LM4040 references.
    But somehow these high precision, high stability references somehow feel
    like overkill in certain situations. It's not the cost, it's the appropriateness.

    I remember the first time I used an LM385. I live in a very remote, very
    hilly part of India. 30-40 years ago, most of the rural areas in my
    state was powered by 300kVA diesel generators. The generators were made
    by an Indian company but the voltage regulators were imported and cost
    the then equivalent of about US$4-5000 to replace. Moreover, the
    manufacturer sometimes took months to supply a replacement.

    So I designed and made several units for the state power agency, using
    only readily available parts. That's where I used LM385s as the
    reference. I had to make some of the parts by hand - like the EMI
    filter, the box, PCB, etc. The only material available then for weather proofing was small tubes of Araldite epoxy intended for domestic
    consumer use.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Oct 9 08:14:24 2024
    On 08-10-2024 08:18 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 14:54:39 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    Yup. Soft knees and terrible tempcos.

    Bandgaps like LM4040 are great. They get down to 0.1% and 50 PPM/deg
    C. 1.2 to 5 volts.



    Yes, I have the LM4040A. But they're from AliExpress, so I wouldn't rely
    on the 0.1% accuracy. Got a small batch for US$0.10 each before India
    blocked access after the border squabble with China in 2020. I have no
    means of independently verifying the accuracy.

    I also got an Aneng AN870 20000-count DMM with a claimed DC accuracy of
    0.05% at the same time. But again I have no way of verifying that claim.

    Checking the accuracy of one against the other would be like checking my digital scales with an uncertified weight.

    Readings with the AN870 agree quite well with my Fluke 107. But the 107
    claims only 0.5%. The $30 AN870 has *much* better features than the
    ~$100 Fluke though.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Pimpom@invalid.invalid on Wed Oct 9 06:01:00 2024
    On a sunny day (Wed, 9 Oct 2024 01:40:46 +0530) it happened Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <algNO.58718$zcoc.57968@fx10.ams1>:

    On 08-10-2024 07:25 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Oct 2024 14:54:39 +0530) it happened Pimpom
    <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <sT6NO.84691$Xx4a.59580@fx11.ams1>:

    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    Yes.
    These days there are 'bandgap' references, those are about 1.25V,
    extr3mely stable.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandgap_voltage_reference
    You can also use a chip like TL431 (google TL431.pdf)
    to make a reference from about 2.5 V upwards
    to whatever you like with 2 resistors as voltage devider.
    IIRC it uses that bandgap reference principle.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TL431#Applications


    I have a bunch of TL431, LM385 (1.25, 2.5 & adj.) and LM4040 references.
    But somehow these high precision, high stability references somehow feel
    like overkill in certain situations. It's not the cost, it's the >appropriateness.

    Sure, my PIC programmer uses LEDs in series as voltage reference :-)


    I remember the first time I used an LM385. I live in a very remote, very >hilly part of India. 30-40 years ago, most of the rural areas in my
    state was powered by 300kVA diesel generators. The generators were made
    by an Indian company but the voltage regulators were imported and cost
    the then equivalent of about US$4-5000 to replace. Moreover, the
    manufacturer sometimes took months to supply a replacement.

    So I designed and made several units for the state power agency, using
    only readily available parts. That's where I used LM385s as the
    reference. I had to make some of the parts by hand - like the EMI
    filter, the box, PCB, etc. The only material available then for weather >proofing was small tubes of Araldite epoxy intended for domestic
    consumer use.

    It is nice to be able to design with what you can get, is awailable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Oct 9 16:17:27 2024
    On 9/10/2024 2:50 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 12:08:20 +0200, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp@arcor.de>
    wrote:

    Am 08.10.24 um 11:24 schrieb Pimpom:
    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    yes, that's true. At > 5V they are really avalanche diodes. Around 5-7V
    it is a mix. Zeners & avalanche diodes have a different TC, and it
    compensates at around 6V.

    You can see the onset of avalanche behavior in the noise spectrum with
    rising voltage. True Zeners are much better here. For the BZX84 family:

    <
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711@N07/24411798996/in/album-72157662535945536
    >

    Prof. Zener even sued the industry not to use his name for avalanche
    thingies because it was not "his" effect. They settled on Z-Diodes
    pretending it was for the V/I curve. But in the end the ghost was out of
    the bottle.

    Gerhard




    Everybody calls them all zeners now.

    You can actually get a zener to oscillate.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/uvbj2tmrlitfv233ncamr/Zener_Noise.pdf?rlkey=bqxynlx8g1r6b6cfiimfaejuo&raw=1

    Expensive noise diodes are probably just selected zeners.

    We had a long thread about that here many years ago. The concensus was
    that they didn't actually oscillate - an avalanche zener run a very low
    current had a finite chance of self-extinguishing the avalanche and
    turning it back on again when the next cosmic ray went past, which is
    what your pencil sketch seems to show.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 9 07:52:00 2024
    On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 01:40:46 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 08-10-2024 07:25 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Tue, 8 Oct 2024 14:54:39 +0530) it happened Pimpom
    <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <sT6NO.84691$Xx4a.59580@fx11.ams1>:

    When I tested some low voltage zener diodes (<<5V) 30-40 years ago, I
    found that they didn't have even a reasonably sharp knee, behaving more
    like LEDs in forward mode, maybe worse. Do I remember correctly? Are
    they still the same?

    Yes.
    These days there are 'bandgap' references, those are about 1.25V,
    extr3mely stable.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandgap_voltage_reference
    You can also use a chip like TL431 (google TL431.pdf)
    to make a reference from about 2.5 V upwards
    to whatever you like with 2 resistors as voltage devider.
    IIRC it uses that bandgap reference principle.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TL431#Applications


    I have a bunch of TL431, LM385 (1.25, 2.5 & adj.) and LM4040 references.
    But somehow these high precision, high stability references somehow feel
    like overkill in certain situations. It's not the cost, it's the >appropriateness.

    I remember the first time I used an LM385. I live in a very remote, very >hilly part of India.

    Sounds interesting. What are the coordinates?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Oct 10 00:47:58 2024
    On 09-10-2024 08:22 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 01:40:46 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    ......<snip>..........

    I remember the first time I used an LM385. I live in a very remote, very
    hilly part of India.

    Sounds interesting. What are the coordinates?

    My house is at about 23.723°N 92.7173°E which is on the southern side of
    the state capital, a city of about 300K. The state is one twentieth the
    size of California, sandwiched along most of its north-south length
    between Bangladesh on the west and Burma to the east.

    Most of the state is on steep hillsides, with few flat and level areas.
    The aerial distance to the sole airport in the state is about 14km and
    31km by road. It used to be 43km before they found a way to bypass the
    worst parts.

    Indigenous people make up roughly 90% of the population and have little
    in common with mainstream India.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Pimpom on Wed Oct 9 19:37:06 2024
    Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09-10-2024 08:22 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 01:40:46 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    ......<snip>..........

    I remember the first time I used an LM385. I live in a very remote, very >>> hilly part of India.

    Sounds interesting. What are the coordinates?

    My house is at about 23.723°N 92.7173°E which is on the southern side of the state capital, a city of about 300K. The state is one twentieth the
    size of California, sandwiched along most of its north-south length
    between Bangladesh on the west and Burma to the east.

    Most of the state is on steep hillsides, with few flat and level areas.
    The aerial distance to the sole airport in the state is about 14km and
    31km by road. It used to be 43km before they found a way to bypass the
    worst parts.

    Indigenous people make up roughly 90% of the population and have little
    in common with mainstream India.


    Ah, so you’re one of those guys who used to come down from the hills and
    take over Burma periodically, the way the Elamites and Medes did to Sumer.
    Glad to know. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Thu Oct 10 02:03:53 2024
    On 10-10-2024 01:07 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09-10-2024 08:22 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 01:40:46 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    ......<snip>..........

    I remember the first time I used an LM385. I live in a very remote, very >>>> hilly part of India.

    Sounds interesting. What are the coordinates?

    My house is at about 23.723°N 92.7173°E which is on the southern side of >> the state capital, a city of about 300K. The state is one twentieth the
    size of California, sandwiched along most of its north-south length
    between Bangladesh on the west and Burma to the east.

    Most of the state is on steep hillsides, with few flat and level areas.
    The aerial distance to the sole airport in the state is about 14km and
    31km by road. It used to be 43km before they found a way to bypass the
    worst parts.

    Indigenous people make up roughly 90% of the population and have little
    in common with mainstream India.


    Ah, so you’re one of those guys who used to come down from the hills and take over Burma periodically, the way the Elamites and Medes did to Sumer. Glad to know. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    :) :) Maybe we should do it again and kick out the military junta there.
    It wasn't too long ago that my people were headhunters! The state - with
    its 1 million citizens - is again being flooded by thousands of refugees
    from Burma fleeing the poverty and oppression in their own country.

    I say 'again' because it was like this for decades before their brief
    stint with democracy. We give them shelter, food and employment, even ad
    hoc schools. They reward us with a sharp rise in crime - drugs, murder, robbery, scams, rape, human trafficking......

    26 years ago, I went along with some friends to see the Governor about establishing a municipality here. The talk diverged to other topics and
    the Governor - a retired military officer appointed by the central
    Indian government - said that 98& of all crimes in the state were
    committed by these illegal immigrants from Burma. My own estimate had
    been 85-90%.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 9 14:39:39 2024
    On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 00:47:58 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 09-10-2024 08:22 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 01:40:46 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    ......<snip>..........

    I remember the first time I used an LM385. I live in a very remote, very >>> hilly part of India.

    Sounds interesting. What are the coordinates?

    My house is at about 23.723°N 92.7173°E which is on the southern side of
    the state capital, a city of about 300K. The state is one twentieth the
    size of California, sandwiched along most of its north-south length
    between Bangladesh on the west and Burma to the east.

    Most of the state is on steep hillsides, with few flat and level areas.
    The aerial distance to the sole airport in the state is about 14km and
    31km by road. It used to be 43km before they found a way to bypass the
    worst parts.

    Indigenous people make up roughly 90% of the population and have little
    in common with mainstream India.

    Lots of motorcycles driving on the wrong side of the street.

    Looks like fun, riding on those hilly streets.

    San Francisco is hilly too. Kamakazies skateboard down the hills.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 9 14:40:59 2024
    On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 02:03:53 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    On 10-10-2024 01:07 am, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 09-10-2024 08:22 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 01:40:46 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    ......<snip>..........

    I remember the first time I used an LM385. I live in a very remote, very >>>>> hilly part of India.

    Sounds interesting. What are the coordinates?

    My house is at about 23.723°N 92.7173°E which is on the southern side of >>> the state capital, a city of about 300K. The state is one twentieth the
    size of California, sandwiched along most of its north-south length
    between Bangladesh on the west and Burma to the east.

    Most of the state is on steep hillsides, with few flat and level areas.
    The aerial distance to the sole airport in the state is about 14km and
    31km by road. It used to be 43km before they found a way to bypass the
    worst parts.

    Indigenous people make up roughly 90% of the population and have little
    in common with mainstream India.


    Ah, so you’re one of those guys who used to come down from the hills and
    take over Burma periodically, the way the Elamites and Medes did to Sumer. >> Glad to know. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    :) :) Maybe we should do it again and kick out the military junta there.
    It wasn't too long ago that my people were headhunters! The state - with
    its 1 million citizens - is again being flooded by thousands of refugees
    from Burma fleeing the poverty and oppression in their own country.

    I say 'again' because it was like this for decades before their brief
    stint with democracy. We give them shelter, food and employment, even ad
    hoc schools. They reward us with a sharp rise in crime - drugs, murder, >robbery, scams, rape, human trafficking......

    26 years ago, I went along with some friends to see the Governor about >establishing a municipality here. The talk diverged to other topics and
    the Governor - a retired military officer appointed by the central
    Indian government - said that 98& of all crimes in the state were
    committed by these illegal immigrants from Burma. My own estimate had
    been 85-90%.

    Just admit the women. They are less dangerous.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Oct 10 21:36:34 2024
    On 10-10-2024 03:09 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 00:47:58 +0530, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid>
    wrote:

    ..........<snip>...........

    Most of the state is on steep hillsides, with few flat and level areas.
    The aerial distance to the sole airport in the state is about 14km and
    31km by road. It used to be 43km before they found a way to bypass the
    worst parts.

    Indigenous people make up roughly 90% of the population and have little
    in common with mainstream India.

    Lots of motorcycles driving on the wrong side of the street.

    Looks like fun, riding on those hilly streets.

    San Francisco is hilly too. Kamakazies skateboard down the hills.

    Well, we have a motorbike gang of sorts here, exclusively for owners of 'Bullet' bikes, a kind of poor man's Harley. Members look tough in
    leather and denims, sport beards and take rides and out-of-state trips.
    But they're completely harmless. They donate blood, contribute to
    charity and volunteer in emergencies. I have several friends in the 'gang'.

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