• 9W LED inrush current

    From Pimpom@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 2 12:01:47 2024
    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a typical
    9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Pimpom@invalid.invalid on Wed Oct 2 09:51:30 2024
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>:

    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a typical
    9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my LED bulbs from Cina:
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG
    peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Wed Oct 2 17:33:07 2024
    On 02-10-2024 03:21 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>:

    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a typical
    9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my LED bulbs from Cina:
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG
    peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    Ah, I should have formed my question more carefully. I know about those
    early bulbs. They were the precursors to modern ones that use switching supplies. These later models are the ones I mean.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Pimpom@invalid.invalid on Wed Oct 2 15:59:19 2024
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 17:33:07 +0530) it happened Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <vdjcpr$37dnn$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 02-10-2024 03:21 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom
    <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>:

    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a typical
    9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my LED bulbs from Cina:
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG
    peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    Ah, I should have formed my question more carefully. I know about those
    early bulbs. They were the precursors to modern ones that use switching >supplies. These later models are the ones I mean.

    Google
    https://www.google.com/search?q=LED+lamp+driver+IC
    lots of chips and circuits
    click on 'pictures' top screen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Pimpom on Wed Oct 2 20:13:09 2024
    On 02/10/2024 13:03, Pimpom wrote:
    On 02-10-2024 03:21 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom
    <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>:

    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a typical
    9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my LED
    bulbs from Cina:
      https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG
       peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    Ah, I should have formed my question more carefully. I know about those
    early bulbs. They were the precursors to modern ones that use switching supplies. These later models are the ones I mean.

    It is still likely to be fairly small since the cheap parts they use are
    not capable of more. Only way to be sure for a specific brand is to
    measure it. I'd expect no more than 2-3x its nominal operating current.
    The reservoir capacitor is seldom bigger than needed to avoid visible
    flicker and sometimes not even that on the cheap and nasties.

    Why do you need to know?

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Thu Oct 3 01:52:36 2024
    On 03-10-2024 12:43 am, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/10/2024 13:03, Pimpom wrote:
    On 02-10-2024 03:21 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom
    <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>:

    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a typical >>>> 9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my LED
    bulbs from Cina:
      https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG
       peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    Ah, I should have formed my question more carefully. I know about
    those early bulbs. They were the precursors to modern ones that use
    switching supplies. These later models are the ones I mean.

    It is still likely to be fairly small since the cheap parts they use are
    not capable of more. Only way to be sure for a specific brand is to
    measure it. I'd expect no more than 2-3x its nominal operating current.
    The reservoir capacitor is seldom bigger than needed to avoid visible
    flicker and sometimes not even that on the cheap and nasties.

    Why do you need to know?

    I wouldn't call it a 'need' - for now. It's more of an academic
    curiosity. I tend to be that way but tidbits of knowledge like this have
    a way of becoming useful later, sometimes years later.

    What triggered this line of thought was a design I'm working on in which
    a 2A SSR or miniature EM relay is to switch a 230V 9W lamp several times
    in an hour. I'm not seriously concerned about the relays' capability to
    handle such levels of power but it got me thinking.

    One source I briefly looked at before posting here cited something like
    130A for a 150W 230V lamp. It was a long article and I didn't read it
    through. Looked legit though, with charts and curves and formulas. It
    talked about MCBs tripping and relay contacts being welded together.

    The article might have been about industrial scale lighting but I didn't
    read enough to be sure. It got me wondering how those figures scale down
    to domestic lights.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Wed Oct 2 13:32:32 2024
    On 10/2/2024 12:13 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/10/2024 13:03, Pimpom wrote:
    On 02-10-2024 03:21 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom
    <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>:

    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a typical >>>> 9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my LED bulbs >>> from Cina:
      https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG
       peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    Ah, I should have formed my question more carefully. I know about those early
    bulbs. They were the precursors to modern ones that use switching supplies. >> These later models are the ones I mean.

    It is still likely to be fairly small since the cheap parts they use are not capable of more. Only way to be sure for a specific brand is to measure it. I'd
    expect no more than 2-3x its nominal operating current. The reservoir capacitor
    is seldom bigger than needed to avoid visible flicker and sometimes not even that on the cheap and nasties.

    For lighting *installations* (i.e., not individual lamps), I think they
    use 100x the steady state current as an upper figure. This is intended
    to cover model and manufacturer variations.

    With multiple lamps on a branch circuit (or whatever is driving them),
    this can add up pretty quickly.

    Why do you need to know?


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Wed Oct 2 17:32:30 2024
    On 10/2/2024 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/2/2024 12:13 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/10/2024 13:03, Pimpom wrote:
    On 02-10-2024 03:21 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom
    <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>: >>>>
    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a typical >>>>> 9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my LED bulbs
    from Cina:
      https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG
       peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    Ah, I should have formed my question more carefully. I know about those
    early bulbs. They were the precursors to modern ones that use switching
    supplies. These later models are the ones I mean.

    It is still likely to be fairly small since the cheap parts they use are not >> capable of more. Only way to be sure for a specific brand is to measure it. >> I'd expect no more than 2-3x its nominal operating current. The reservoir
    capacitor is seldom bigger than needed to avoid visible flicker and sometimes
    not even that on the cheap and nasties.

    For lighting *installations* (i.e., not individual lamps), I think they
    use 100x the steady state current as an upper figure.  This is intended
    to cover model and manufacturer variations.

    With multiple lamps on a branch circuit (or whatever is driving them),
    this can add up pretty quickly.

    Why do you need to know?

    <https://adlt.com.au/resources/led-inrush-currents/>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Brown@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Oct 3 09:46:21 2024
    On 03/10/2024 01:32, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/2/2024 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/2/2024 12:13 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/10/2024 13:03, Pimpom wrote:
    On 02-10-2024 03:21 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom
    <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>: >>>>>
    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a
    typical
    9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my
    LED bulbs from Cina:
      https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG
       peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    Ah, I should have formed my question more carefully. I know about
    those early bulbs. They were the precursors to modern ones that use
    switching supplies. These later models are the ones I mean.

    It is still likely to be fairly small since the cheap parts they use
    are not capable of more. Only way to be sure for a specific brand is
    to measure it. I'd expect no more than 2-3x its nominal operating
    current. The reservoir capacitor is seldom bigger than needed to
    avoid visible flicker and sometimes not even that on the cheap and
    nasties.

    For lighting *installations* (i.e., not individual lamps), I think they
    use 100x the steady state current as an upper figure.  This is intended
    to cover model and manufacturer variations.

    With multiple lamps on a branch circuit (or whatever is driving them),
    this can add up pretty quickly.

    Why do you need to know?

    <https://adlt.com.au/resources/led-inrush-currents/>

    Thanks for the link - that seems definitive and on high end units too.

    I had perhaps naively assumed that they would put a small inductor in
    series with the thing to limit worst case inrush current. It is only for
    a very very short time though ~100A for <1ms which real fuses won't even
    see and most domestic circuit breakers probably won't either.

    By comparison the arc caused by a filament spotlamp in the kitchen going
    pop bang almost always exceeded the max trip current by some margin.

    My lighting circuits are now almost exclusively LED based and I have
    never seen any signs of trips. Although I never put all the lights on at
    once and then done a system mains power off/on at the breaker box.

    That is about the only time that this 100A surge risk becomes a problem.
    One of my switched loads is 10x 7W LED candle lamps and has never caused
    a problem. Back when it was 10x 40w incandescents it was a heat source!

    --
    Martin Brown

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pimpom@21:1/5 to Don Y on Thu Oct 3 15:14:35 2024
    On 03-10-2024 06:02 am, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/2/2024 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/2/2024 12:13 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/10/2024 13:03, Pimpom wrote:
    On 02-10-2024 03:21 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom
    <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>: >>>>>
    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a
    typical
    9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my
    LED bulbs from Cina:
      https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG
       peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    Ah, I should have formed my question more carefully. I know about
    those early bulbs. They were the precursors to modern ones that use
    switching supplies. These later models are the ones I mean.

    It is still likely to be fairly small since the cheap parts they use
    are not capable of more. Only way to be sure for a specific brand is
    to measure it. I'd expect no more than 2-3x its nominal operating
    current. The reservoir capacitor is seldom bigger than needed to
    avoid visible flicker and sometimes not even that on the cheap and
    nasties.

    For lighting *installations* (i.e., not individual lamps), I think they
    use 100x the steady state current as an upper figure.  This is intended
    to cover model and manufacturer variations.

    With multiple lamps on a branch circuit (or whatever is driving them),
    this can add up pretty quickly.

    Why do you need to know?

    <https://adlt.com.au/resources/led-inrush-currents/>


    That's the link I mentioned seeing before. I was bury and only scanned
    it briefly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From piglet@21:1/5 to Pimpom on Thu Oct 3 09:53:19 2024
    Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    On 03-10-2024 06:02 am, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/2/2024 1:32 PM, Don Y wrote:
    On 10/2/2024 12:13 PM, Martin Brown wrote:
    On 02/10/2024 13:03, Pimpom wrote:
    On 02-10-2024 03:21 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Wed, 2 Oct 2024 12:01:47 +0530) it happened Pimpom >>>>>> <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote in <mN5LO.101241$CStb.23546@fx12.ams1>: >>>>>>
    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a
    typical
    9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Not sure wat the 'typical' circuit is, this is wha tI found in my
    LED bulbs from Cina:
      https://panteltje.nl/pub/LED_light_circuit_diagram_IMG_6925.JPG >>>>>>    peak current is limited by the 1uF series cap at 50 Hz here.
    There are so many different LEDs around,...

    Ah, I should have formed my question more carefully. I know about
    those early bulbs. They were the precursors to modern ones that use
    switching supplies. These later models are the ones I mean.

    It is still likely to be fairly small since the cheap parts they use
    are not capable of more. Only way to be sure for a specific brand is
    to measure it. I'd expect no more than 2-3x its nominal operating
    current. The reservoir capacitor is seldom bigger than needed to
    avoid visible flicker and sometimes not even that on the cheap and
    nasties.

    For lighting *installations* (i.e., not individual lamps), I think they
    use 100x the steady state current as an upper figure.  This is intended >>> to cover model and manufacturer variations.

    With multiple lamps on a branch circuit (or whatever is driving them),
    this can add up pretty quickly.

    Why do you need to know?

    <https://adlt.com.au/resources/led-inrush-currents/>


    That's the link I mentioned seeing before. I was bury and only scanned
    it briefly.


    There is a relay (from memory Hongfa HF115 or Schrack RX03) whose data
    sheet specifies inrush , something like 165A for 20ms incandescent or 425A
    for 1.5 ms LED which gives you rough indication of magnitude of the
    problem. Yes, contact welding is a problem.

    --
    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Pimpom on Thu Oct 3 03:44:42 2024
    On 10/3/2024 2:44 AM, Pimpom wrote:
    On 03-10-2024 06:02 am, Don Y wrote:

    <https://adlt.com.au/resources/led-inrush-currents/>

    That's the link I mentioned seeing before. I was bury and only scanned it briefly.

    I have other documentation that states similarly -- but,
    I don't think I am allowed to publish it :< OTOH,
    nothing prevents me from searching for public
    documents that make *similar* claims! :>

    OTOH, this is all industrial/large-scale stuff. I
    have no idea how devices targeting consumer would
    behave. On the one hand, they are likely lower
    cost and, thus, "cheaper" (in all meanings of the term).
    On the other, if they were problematic in their design,
    they would fail their markets!

    [Someone trying to illuminate /L'Arc de Triomphe/ is
    obviously more determined -- and resourceful -- than
    someone trying to light their bathroom!]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Martin Brown on Thu Oct 3 03:25:40 2024
    On 10/3/2024 1:46 AM, Martin Brown wrote:
    For lighting *installations* (i.e., not individual lamps), I think they
    use 100x the steady state current as an upper figure.  This is intended >>> to cover model and manufacturer variations.

    With multiple lamps on a branch circuit (or whatever is driving them),
    this can add up pretty quickly.

    Why do you need to know?

    <https://adlt.com.au/resources/led-inrush-currents/>

    Thanks for the link - that seems definitive and on high end units too.

    I had perhaps naively assumed that they would put a small inductor in series with the thing to limit worst case inrush current. It is only for a very very short time though ~100A for <1ms which real fuses won't even see and most domestic circuit breakers probably won't either.

    "Best Practices" (for industrial-scale installations) is to put a
    "smart" driver *in* the lamp and just run "unswitched" (excepting
    for circuit breaker) mains voltage to the fixture(s). Then,
    use smart controls to slightly stagger (like one mains cycle)
    the startup of multiple lamps.

    I have one of these mounted in our garage:
    <https://protolight.com/files/2019/05/Lumenbeam-LBX-cc-hex-2.png>
    (may not be the correct model; I'm too lazy to walk out there and
    take a look :< The yoke in the picture seems too large -- the lamp
    is about 14" in diameter) It dissipates 100W -- intended to light the
    EXTERIOR of large *buildings* dramatically. (I use it as a way
    to inform the driver of a vehicle entering/exiting the garage of
    a hazzard or caution needed in his actions -- like "you're too close
    to the side of the space" or "you are about to run over something")

    It is controlled by a wonky serial protocol layered on EIA232.
    The drivers inside the lamp ("luminaire") try to play nice with
    the mains (multiple discrete emitters involved -- RGBW). It's up
    to the controller that is talking to them to coordinate their
    loads.

    By comparison the arc caused by a filament spotlamp in the kitchen going pop bang almost always exceeded the max trip current by some margin.

    My lighting circuits are now almost exclusively LED based and I have never seen
    any signs of trips. Although I never put all the lights on at once and then done a system mains power off/on at the breaker box.

    Most of our lighting circuits are 6-10 lamps (I like/need? a LOT of
    light and grumble when SWMBO is always turning their intensity down).
    We've not had any problems -- but, I assume the dimmer controls
    ("for use with LED") have taken some steps in this regard, along
    with manufacturers of the actual lamps (no one would be using them
    if they had to reset a breaker each time they flipped a switch "on"!)

    That is about the only time that this 100A surge risk becomes a problem. One of
    my switched loads is 10x 7W LED candle lamps and has never caused a problem. Back when it was 10x 40w incandescents it was a heat source!

    Again, "I line/need lots of light" :> My bathroom was like a
    sauna -- 8x60W -- with incandescents! A dimmer made it tolerable
    for normal use vs. "crank it up for a clean shave!" :<

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jasen Betts@21:1/5 to Pimpom on Sat Oct 5 22:18:01 2024
    On 2024-10-02, Pimpom <Pimpom@invalid.invalid> wrote:
    Does anyone have a figure for the switch-on inrush current of a typical
    9W LED bulb? Preferably for 230/240V.

    Is there a typical 230V LED bulb circuit?

    --
    Jasen.
    🇺🇦 Слава Україні

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)