• Re: kids these days

    From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 10:10:33 2024
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin ><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:



    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with, build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun. >Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If
    they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)


    And not everybody is 'made' for electronics...

    It is a way of thinking
    I was reading this just now:
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/09/these-3d-printed-pipes-inspired-by-shark-intestines-outperform-tesla-valves/
    can you do it in silly-con?
    Make a rectifier that way?
    ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 10:06:01 2024
    On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:



    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHVrnltb45pObHHLhZrXVxq25z20JeDU8JPg9gvlDBJhjeYEzdUd17bRg5BtdiEWogOTPdntQzANh0QgATtWDZyzRF29N5hQI-
    fpEzKWDdFKP00ngGxg35yKocz3STPk5gEgFEiIydE2c_w0GQYO362DBWRavsEPamcuQg_4Z-XU

    Oh. I just hired one.

    "For example, Michigan State University is teaching students how to
    handle a networking conversation, including how to look for signs that
    the other party is starting to get bored and that its time to move
    on."

    Oh yeah, that'll fix everything.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Sun Sep 29 20:58:33 2024
    On 29/09/2024 7:10 pm, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>: >>


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with, build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If
    they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    And the candidates know that it wouldn't be a good idea to take a job
    with him. Insultingly trivial questions from a job interviewer aren't a positive predictor of job satisfaction.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Sun Sep 29 21:01:28 2024
    On 29/09/2024 7:06 pm, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:



    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHVrnltb45pObHHLhZrXVxq25z20JeDU8JPg9gvlDBJhjeYEzdUd17bRg5BtdiEWogOTPdntQzANh0QgATtWDZyzRF29N5hQI-
    fpEzKWDdFKP00ngGxg35yKocz3STPk5gEgFEiIydE2c_w0GQYO362DBWRavsEPamcuQg_4Z-XU

    Oh. I just hired one.

    "For example, Michigan State University is teaching students how to
    handle a networking conversation, including how to look for signs that
    the other party is starting to get bored and that it’s time to move
    on."

    Oh yeah, that'll fix everything.

    If you need to be taught how to look for signs of declining interest,
    you are probably dyslexic.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to cd@notformail.com on Sun Sep 29 13:22:31 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>: >>


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun. >>Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If
    they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"
    Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 17:41:36 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom ><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>: >>>

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If
    they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts >then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"
    Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my
    example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that
    anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he
    interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are
    going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first
    approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's
    grads, it seems. :(

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to cd@notformail.com on Sun Sep 29 17:04:57 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts >>then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my
    example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that
    anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he
    interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are
    going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's
    grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days.
    Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school
    it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969 now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..
    that US war mongering war machine has no place in evolution, same for israhell, Religious brainwashed by theior leaders fanatics everywhere.

    Digital dooms day clocks very very precise... atomic





    \

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 10:36:26 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom ><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>: >>>

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If
    they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts >then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with
    1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 18:41:27 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom ><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that
    anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he
    interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are
    going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days. >Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school
    it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969 >now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..
    that US war mongering war machine has no place in evolution, same for israhell,
    Religious brainwashed by theior leaders fanatics everywhere.

    Digital dooms day clocks very very precise... atomic

    You and I are old enough to remember back in the past when a situation
    such as that in Ukraine/Russia or Israel/Palestine/Lebanon where
    all-out war was a distinct likelihood, there would be any number of
    peace envoys getting stuck in and trying to defuse the situation
    before it escalated. Isn't it curious that we have no such initiatives
    going ahead today? I don't believe there's an innocent explanation for
    that. These conflicts are 100% engineered by the people Trump refers
    to as "The Swamp" and it's becoming ever more obvious that's the case
    for even the most obtuse among the bovine, cud-chewing rabble that
    form the bulk of the electorate in all democratic nations world-wide.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 10:42:42 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts >>then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my
    example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that
    anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he
    interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are
    going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's
    grads, it seems. :(

    I use 10 volts and 9K and 1K, which really hints at the answer.

    If they get that one right, I ask them if they have anything else to
    say about the situation. One time in a thousand they might. I can keep
    hoping.

    Circuit design is something of a lost art these days.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 10:49:25 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom ><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that
    anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he
    interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are
    going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days. >Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school
    it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969 >now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..

    What's happening is that the normal distribution is getting wider, and
    not just in the USA. Some of the fringes are geniuses, and a society
    benefits from having even a few geniuses.

    Being reflexively anti-American is no substitute for thinking. I still
    think that the USA is the best place to design electronics.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Sep 29 21:53:30 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts >>then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with
    1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 14:13:26 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with
    1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter
    1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base
    voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Sep 29 18:29:42 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter
    1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base
    voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    Smart-ass answer: Who knows ... nobody uses vacuum tubes or bipolar transistors any more.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 30 01:03:37 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>>1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter
    1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base
    voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    Smart-ass answer: Who knows ... nobody uses vacuum tubes or bipolar >transistors any more.

    Joe Gwinn

    I would assume on this group that *everyone* knows.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 00:42:50 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter
    1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base
    voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    And you say a new graduate couldn't answer this? I can't believe
    they're turning out people for jobs like this. NFW would this have
    happened 40 years ago or more.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 17:06:23 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>>1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter
    1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base
    voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    Smart-ass answer: Who knows ... nobody uses vacuum tubes or bipolar >transistors any more.

    Joe Gwinn

    Yes, the collector voltage is a tough one.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 18:02:38 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>>1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter
    1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base
    voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    Smart-ass answer: Who knows ... nobody uses vacuum tubes or bipolar >transistors any more.

    Joe Gwinn

    So assume a common n-channel mosfet, like a 2N7000. What are the
    answers?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 29 20:23:31 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 01:03:37 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>>>1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter
    1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base
    voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    Smart-ass answer: Who knows ... nobody uses vacuum tubes or bipolar >>transistors any more.

    Joe Gwinn

    I would assume on this group that *everyone* knows.

    Yes but they are all old.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Mon Sep 30 13:45:53 2024
    On 30/09/2024 3:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>: >>
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>> <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:



    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>> I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>> applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>> 10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>> they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>> not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>> And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>> and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>> Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my
    example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that
    anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he
    interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are
    going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first
    approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's
    grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days. >> Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school
    it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..
    that US war mongering war machine has no place in evolution, same for israhell,
    Religious brainwashed by theior leaders fanatics everywhere.

    Digital dooms day clocks very very precise... atomic

    You and I are old enough to remember back in the past when a situation
    such as that in Ukraine/Russia or Israel/Palestine/Lebanon where
    all-out war was a distinct likelihood, there would be any number of
    peace envoys getting stuck in and trying to defuse the situation
    before it escalated. Isn't it curious that we have no such initiatives
    going ahead today? I don't believe there's an innocent explanation for
    that. These conflicts are 100% engineered by the people Trump refers
    to as "The Swamp" and it's becoming ever more obvious that's the case
    for even the most obtuse among the bovine, cud-chewing rabble that
    form the bulk of the electorate in all democratic nations world-wide.

    This does rather ignore the point that Putin doesn't want peace - he
    wants a large piece of the Ukraine, and is working on getting it in a
    way that will intimidate all his other neighbours.

    Peace envoys aren't fools - the only way to defuse the situation would
    be replace Putin with somebody less ambitious.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 13:48:27 2024
    On 30/09/2024 3:49 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>: >>
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>> <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:

    <snip>


    Being reflexively anti-American is no substitute for thinking. I still
    think that the USA is the best place to design electronics.

    But then again, John Larkin thinks that he "designs" his electronics.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Mon Sep 30 13:40:38 2024
    On 30/09/2024 2:41 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:



    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job
    applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If
    they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"
    Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my
    example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that
    anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he
    interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing.

    What we know is that John Larkin wants us to think this.

    The graduate he interviewed probably saw it differently.

    The Chinese are going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Probably not. They are no less infested with John Larkin types than we
    are, and when these creeps get into powerful positions in the Chinese
    Communist Party they can be unpleasant to any number of people.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's
    grads, it seems. :(

    Ask the wrong question the wrong way and get answers that confirm your
    own prejudices.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to JL@gct.com on Mon Sep 30 05:15:02 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to cd@notformail.com on Mon Sep 30 05:40:39 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:41:27 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <714jfj57e91sfrgeruv4prsqmujf3m04hs@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that >>>anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he >>>interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are >>>going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days. >>Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school
    it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..
    that US war mongering war machine has no place in evolution, same for israhell,
    Religious brainwashed by theior leaders fanatics everywhere.

    Digital dooms day clocks very very precise... atomic

    You and I are old enough to remember back in the past when a situation
    such as that in Ukraine/Russia or Israel/Palestine/Lebanon where
    all-out war was a distinct likelihood, there would be any number of
    peace envoys getting stuck in and trying to defuse the situation
    before it escalated. Isn't it curious that we have no such initiatives
    going ahead today? I don't believe there's an innocent explanation for
    that. These conflicts are 100% engineered by the people Trump refers
    to as "The Swamp" and it's becoming ever more obvious that's the case
    for even the most obtuse among the bovine, cud-chewing rabble that
    form the bulk of the electorate in all democratic nations world-wide.

    Darwin rules...
    !

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to JL@gct.com on Mon Sep 30 05:31:27 2024
    XPost: us.politics

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:49:25 -0700) it happened john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote in <de4jfjlq704080370lfofh0k0bu3njqn9u@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that >>>anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he >>>interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are >>>going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days. >>Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school
    it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..

    What's happening is that the normal distribution is getting wider, and
    not just in the USA. Some of the fringes are geniuses, and a society
    benefits from having even a few geniuses.

    Look at China


    Being reflexively anti-American is no substitute for thinking. I still
    think that the USA is the best place to design electronics.

    I observe, like I do when I use a scope to see what is happening in a circuit. Now is-a-hell hits Jemen.. US weapon factories are having a party,
    you pay more taxes..
    Bad system.

    As your enemies get more powerful and more unite, you are a sitting duck.
    Just a big war industry making war to sell at taxpayer's cost
    making losses, a deficit the greatest on earth and in history.

    Should any sane person ADMIRE that disaster?
    Half senile president and an ego tripper criminal as aspiring precedent.

    Hide under the table I've heard is the tactics recommended by you leaders.
    ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 30 11:05:37 2024
    XPost: us.politics

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:31:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:49:25 -0700) it happened john larkin ><JL@gct.com> wrote in <de4jfjlq704080370lfofh0k0bu3njqn9u@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>: >>>
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>: >>>>>
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>>><jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html >>>>>>>>
    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>>>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>>>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that >>>>anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he >>>>interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are >>>>going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned >>>>the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>>>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>>>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days. >>>Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school
    it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..

    What's happening is that the normal distribution is getting wider, and
    not just in the USA. Some of the fringes are geniuses, and a society >>benefits from having even a few geniuses.

    Look at China


    Being reflexively anti-American is no substitute for thinking. I still >>think that the USA is the best place to design electronics.

    I observe, like I do when I use a scope to see what is happening in a circuit. >Now is-a-hell hits Jemen.. US weapon factories are having a party,
    you pay more taxes..
    Bad system.

    As your enemies get more powerful and more unite, you are a sitting duck. >Just a big war industry making war to sell at taxpayer's cost
    making losses, a deficit the greatest on earth and in history.

    Should any sane person ADMIRE that disaster?
    Half senile president and an ego tripper criminal as aspiring precedent.

    Hide under the table I've heard is the tactics recommended by you leaders.
    ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg9scNl9h4Q

    I couldn't find the version with advert at the end "sponsored by Acme Cigarettes - the mild smoke for kids" :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 30 11:13:56 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin ><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's
    silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to cd@notformail.com on Mon Sep 30 11:35:31 2024
    XPost: us.politics

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:05:37 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2stkfjph6d7s5h50hafmsia5ep7209ds3e@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:31:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:49:25 -0700) it happened john larkin >><JL@gct.com> wrote in <de4jfjlq704080370lfofh0k0bu3njqn9u@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>: >>>>
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up
    with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue >>>>>>will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>>>>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>>>>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that >>>>>anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately, >>>>>as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he >>>>>interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are >>>>>going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned >>>>>the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And >>>>>on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>>>>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>>>>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days. >>>>Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school
    it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..

    What's happening is that the normal distribution is getting wider, and >>>not just in the USA. Some of the fringes are geniuses, and a society >>>benefits from having even a few geniuses.

    Look at China


    Being reflexively anti-American is no substitute for thinking. I still >>>think that the USA is the best place to design electronics.

    I observe, like I do when I use a scope to see what is happening in a circuit.
    Now is-a-hell hits Jemen.. US weapon factories are having a party,
    you pay more taxes..
    Bad system.

    As your enemies get more powerful and more unite, you are a sitting duck. >>Just a big war industry making war to sell at taxpayer's cost
    making losses, a deficit the greatest on earth and in history.

    Should any sane person ADMIRE that disaster?
    Half senile president and an ego tripper criminal as aspiring precedent.

    Hide under the table I've heard is the tactics recommended by you leaders. >>?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg9scNl9h4Q

    Yep, that is the one :-)


    I couldn't find the version with advert at the end "sponsored by Acme >Cigarettes - the mild smoke for kids" :-)

    Oops..
    Anyways they are all on Fetanyl or something these days?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 30 14:30:48 2024
    XPost: us.politics

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:35:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:05:37 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom ><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2stkfjph6d7s5h50hafmsia5ep7209ds3e@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:31:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:49:25 -0700) it happened john larkin >>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <de4jfjlq704080370lfofh0k0bu3njqn9u@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>: >>>>>
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up
    with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>>And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>>and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue >>>>>>>will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>>>>>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>>>>>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that >>>>>>anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately, >>>>>>as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he >>>>>>interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are >>>>>>going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned >>>>>>the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And >>>>>>on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>>>>>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>>>>>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days. >>>>>Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school >>>>>it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..

    What's happening is that the normal distribution is getting wider, and >>>>not just in the USA. Some of the fringes are geniuses, and a society >>>>benefits from having even a few geniuses.

    Look at China


    Being reflexively anti-American is no substitute for thinking. I still >>>>think that the USA is the best place to design electronics.

    I observe, like I do when I use a scope to see what is happening in a circuit.
    Now is-a-hell hits Jemen.. US weapon factories are having a party,
    you pay more taxes..
    Bad system.

    As your enemies get more powerful and more unite, you are a sitting duck. >>>Just a big war industry making war to sell at taxpayer's cost
    making losses, a deficit the greatest on earth and in history.

    Should any sane person ADMIRE that disaster?
    Half senile president and an ego tripper criminal as aspiring precedent.

    Hide under the table I've heard is the tactics recommended by you leaders. >>>?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg9scNl9h4Q

    Yep, that is the one :-)

    Indeed. But for those of us humans without shells, I'm assured hiding
    under a school desk is equally effective for any nuclear blasts up to
    10 megatons.



    I couldn't find the version with advert at the end "sponsored by Acme >>Cigarettes - the mild smoke for kids" :-)

    Oops..
    Anyways they are all on Fetanyl or something these days?

    Yeah, the under 10s are all on Fentanyl and the teenagers have moved
    on to this stuff called 'duster' I gather. I'm told it's 20 times more addictive than crack cocaine and Wallmart sells it for $2 a can. Kids
    these days have it all. When I was young, street drugs didn't even
    exist.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to cd@notformail.com on Mon Sep 30 14:35:52 2024
    XPost: us.politics

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 14:30:48 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <3i9lfj57mhfe657c5mcbd3mmap61q4m1ik@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:35:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:05:37 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2stkfjph6d7s5h50hafmsia5ep7209ds3e@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:31:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:49:25 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <de4jfjlq704080370lfofh0k0bu3njqn9u@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up
    with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort
    of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training? >>>>>>>>>
    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>>>And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>>>and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and
    resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See >>>>>>>>Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim, >>>>>>>>The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue >>>>>>>>will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>>>>>>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>>>>>>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that >>>>>>>anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately, >>>>>>>as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he >>>>>>>interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are >>>>>>>going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned >>>>>>>the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And >>>>>>>on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>>>>>>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>>>>>>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days.
    Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school >>>>>>it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..

    What's happening is that the normal distribution is getting wider, and >>>>>not just in the USA. Some of the fringes are geniuses, and a society >>>>>benefits from having even a few geniuses.

    Look at China


    Being reflexively anti-American is no substitute for thinking. I still >>>>>think that the USA is the best place to design electronics.

    I observe, like I do when I use a scope to see what is happening in a circuit.
    Now is-a-hell hits Jemen.. US weapon factories are having a party,
    you pay more taxes..
    Bad system.

    As your enemies get more powerful and more unite, you are a sitting duck. >>>>Just a big war industry making war to sell at taxpayer's cost
    making losses, a deficit the greatest on earth and in history.

    Should any sane person ADMIRE that disaster?
    Half senile president and an ego tripper criminal as aspiring precedent. >>>>
    Hide under the table I've heard is the tactics recommended by you leaders. >>>>?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg9scNl9h4Q

    Yep, that is the one :-)

    Indeed. But for those of us humans without shells, I'm assured hiding
    under a school desk is equally effective for any nuclear blasts up to
    10 megatons.



    I couldn't find the version with advert at the end "sponsored by Acme >>>Cigarettes - the mild smoke for kids" :-)

    Oops..
    Anyways they are all on Fetanyl or something these days?

    Yeah, the under 10s are all on Fentanyl and the teenagers have moved
    on to this stuff called 'duster' I gather. I'm told it's 20 times more >addictive than crack cocaine and Wallmart sells it for $2 a can. Kids
    these days have it all. When I was young, street drugs didn't even
    exist.

    Had to look up 'duster'
    https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/air-duster-abuse/air-duster-high/

    When I was young, say in the fifties, no drugs here either, was living in Amsterdam back then.
    In the seventies drugs were everywhere here, smoking with friends at night in my room playing records..,
    the smell got much in my clothes, so you got funny looks at work,
    One day I just quit drugs.
    There also was LSD and what not.
    Some people I knew ended in the hospital with overdoses..
    Some kicked off...

    Somehow drugs never got hold on me, always could rationalize what I experienced,
    was studying psychology books, designing stuff, work...
    then after the mid seventies travelled the world.... looking for 'truth', travelled all over the US too.
    Lived in a community for a while... lived in the wild... had my own company, worked
    in many different fields that used electronics... in a hospital too.
    Drugs are in a way an escape from your reality,, OTOH I have had cool experiences.
    Here, few month ago, waiting at the bus stop, kids smoking there, maybe 10 or 12 years old?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 11:12:25 2024
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:02:38 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>>>And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>>>1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter
    1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base
    voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    Smart-ass answer: Who knows ... nobody uses vacuum tubes or bipolar >>transistors any more.

    Joe Gwinn

    So assume a common n-channel mosfet, like a 2N7000. What are the
    answers?

    Where's the Microcontroller Programmers Guide?

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 30 08:18:42 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin ><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    "Paralysis by analysis."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 30 08:24:38 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K. >>
    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 30 08:16:56 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:12:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:02:38 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>>And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>>and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>>>>1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter >>>>1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base >>>>voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    Smart-ass answer: Who knows ... nobody uses vacuum tubes or bipolar >>>transistors any more.

    Joe Gwinn

    So assume a common n-channel mosfet, like a 2N7000. What are the
    answers?

    Where's the Microcontroller Programmers Guide?

    Joe Gwinn

    So many people here prefer snarks to parts.

    Probably few actually understand simple circuits.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 30 16:40:18 2024
    XPost: us.politics

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 14:35:52 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 14:30:48 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom ><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <3i9lfj57mhfe657c5mcbd3mmap61q4m1ik@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:35:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:05:37 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2stkfjph6d7s5h50hafmsia5ep7209ds3e@4ax.com>: >>>
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:31:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:49:25 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <de4jfjlq704080370lfofh0k0bu3njqn9u@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up
    with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort
    of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards .. >>>>>>>>>>>Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training? >>>>>>>>>>
    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>>>>And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>>>>and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and
    resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See >>>>>>>>>Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim, >>>>>>>>>The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue >>>>>>>>>will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>>>>>>>Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>>>>>>>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that >>>>>>>>anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately, >>>>>>>>as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he >>>>>>>>interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are >>>>>>>>going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned >>>>>>>>the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And >>>>>>>>on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>>>>>>>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>>>>>>>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days.
    Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school >>>>>>>it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..

    What's happening is that the normal distribution is getting wider, and >>>>>>not just in the USA. Some of the fringes are geniuses, and a society >>>>>>benefits from having even a few geniuses.

    Look at China


    Being reflexively anti-American is no substitute for thinking. I still >>>>>>think that the USA is the best place to design electronics.

    I observe, like I do when I use a scope to see what is happening in a circuit.
    Now is-a-hell hits Jemen.. US weapon factories are having a party, >>>>>you pay more taxes..
    Bad system.

    As your enemies get more powerful and more unite, you are a sitting duck. >>>>>Just a big war industry making war to sell at taxpayer's cost
    making losses, a deficit the greatest on earth and in history.

    Should any sane person ADMIRE that disaster?
    Half senile president and an ego tripper criminal as aspiring precedent. >>>>>
    Hide under the table I've heard is the tactics recommended by you leaders. >>>>>?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg9scNl9h4Q

    Yep, that is the one :-)

    Indeed. But for those of us humans without shells, I'm assured hiding
    under a school desk is equally effective for any nuclear blasts up to
    10 megatons.



    I couldn't find the version with advert at the end "sponsored by Acme >>>>Cigarettes - the mild smoke for kids" :-)

    Oops..
    Anyways they are all on Fetanyl or something these days?

    Yeah, the under 10s are all on Fentanyl and the teenagers have moved
    on to this stuff called 'duster' I gather. I'm told it's 20 times more >>addictive than crack cocaine and Wallmart sells it for $2 a can. Kids
    these days have it all. When I was young, street drugs didn't even
    exist.

    Had to look up 'duster'
    https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/air-duster-abuse/air-duster-high/

    When I was young, say in the fifties, no drugs here either, was living in Amsterdam back then.
    In the seventies drugs were everywhere here, smoking with friends at night in my room playing records..,
    the smell got much in my clothes, so you got funny looks at work,
    One day I just quit drugs.
    There also was LSD and what not.
    Some people I knew ended in the hospital with overdoses..
    Some kicked off...

    Somehow drugs never got hold on me, always could rationalize what I experienced,
    was studying psychology books, designing stuff, work...
    then after the mid seventies travelled the world.... looking for 'truth', travelled all over the US too.
    Lived in a community for a while... lived in the wild... had my own company, worked
    in many different fields that used electronics... in a hospital too.
    Drugs are in a way an escape from your reality,, OTOH I have had cool experiences.
    Here, few month ago, waiting at the bus stop, kids smoking there, maybe 10 or 12 years old?


    We tend to see this as a recent phenomenon, but it really isn't. Go
    back to Ireland a hundred years ago and you'd see 7 year-old boys
    running around smoking tobacco in clay pipes and it was not regarded
    as the least bit unsual!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 16:46:48 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K. >>>
    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    Seriously? Vb is 5V. Vbe is 0.6V so Ve is 4.4V which gives us an Ie of
    4.4/1000 = 4.4mA. Ic will be slightly less obviously but to a first approximation we usually take them to be the same. Vc = 10V.
    I don't see how anyone can get tripped up by this.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 15:51:38 2024
    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K. >>>
    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>> electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's
    silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?


    Standard ROT circuit from technician school BITD.

    Beta of 200ish, roughly 4 mA I_C, so the base pulls 20 uA. With a 5k
    source, it’ll sag 100 mV, not much.

    So V_E will be near 4.3 V, unless it oscillates, which it probably won’t unless it’s built on one of those nasty white nylon slab things.

    (Technician school is particularly insistent on the distinction between
    beta and beta+1 in circuits, even though datasheet limits easily exceed
    2:1.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    (who’s never taken a circuits course other than “RLCs for physicists”)

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 30 11:05:13 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:46:48 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K. >>>>
    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    Seriously? Vb is 5V. Vbe is 0.6V so Ve is 4.4V which gives us an Ie of >4.4/1000 = 4.4mA. Ic will be slightly less obviously but to a first >approximation we usually take them to be the same. Vc = 10V.
    I don't see how anyone can get tripped up by this.

    You aren't interviewing many young EE grads!

    Sure, people hang out in various parts of the abstraction stack, but
    real circuit design seems to be a fading art.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Mon Sep 30 11:11:12 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 15:51:38 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>> electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's
    silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?


    Standard ROT circuit from technician school BITD.

    Beta of 200ish, roughly 4 mA I_C, so the base pulls 20 uA. With a 5k
    source, itll sag 100 mV, not much.

    So V_E will be near 4.3 V, unless it oscillates, which it probably wont >unless its built on one of those nasty white nylon slab things.

    (Technician school is particularly insistent on the distinction between
    beta and beta+1 in circuits, even though datasheet limits easily exceed
    2:1.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    (whos never taken a circuits course other than RLCs for physicists)

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a
    miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 13:21:56 2024
    "john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message news:7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K. >>>
    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    Why not ask about the essential features of the circuit below.
    Extra credit: What's it for?

    Knowledge of things which were useful decades ago may not be so useful now.

    How many students think that knowing how to design circuits like the one below will help them make money?

    Version 4
    SHEET 1 960 1280
    WIRE -272 -144 -400 -144
    WIRE 112 -144 -272 -144
    WIRE 352 -144 112 -144
    WIRE 544 -144 352 -144
    WIRE -272 -96 -272 -144
    WIRE 112 -96 112 -144
    WIRE 352 -96 352 -144
    WIRE 544 -16 544 -144
    WIRE -272 16 -272 -32
    WIRE 112 16 112 -16
    WIRE 192 16 112 16
    WIRE 352 32 352 -16
    WIRE 480 32 352 32
    WIRE 112 64 112 16
    WIRE 192 112 192 80
    WIRE 64 128 16 128
    WIRE 112 192 112 160
    WIRE 240 208 208 208
    WIRE 544 208 544 80
    WIRE 544 208 304 208
    WIRE -400 256 -400 -144
    WIRE 352 272 352 32
    WIRE 16 304 16 128
    WIRE 112 304 112 272
    WIRE 112 304 16 304
    WIRE 112 320 112 304
    WIRE 208 320 208 208
    WIRE 208 320 112 320
    WIRE 288 320 208 320
    WIRE 112 352 112 320
    WIRE -288 400 -576 400
    WIRE -240 400 -288 400
    WIRE -224 400 -240 400
    WIRE -128 400 -160 400
    WIRE -16 400 -48 400
    WIRE 48 400 -16 400
    WIRE 352 400 352 368
    WIRE 544 480 544 208
    WIRE 592 480 544 480
    WIRE 688 480 656 480
    WIRE 832 480 768 480
    WIRE 880 480 832 480
    WIRE -16 496 -16 400
    WIRE 16 496 -16 496
    WIRE 112 496 112 448
    WIRE 112 496 80 496
    WIRE 112 512 112 496
    WIRE 224 512 112 512
    WIRE 352 512 352 480
    WIRE 432 512 352 512
    WIRE -240 528 -240 400
    WIRE -16 528 -16 496
    WIRE 112 528 112 512
    WIRE 352 528 352 512
    WIRE -576 608 -576 400
    WIRE 832 608 832 480
    WIRE -16 656 -16 608
    WIRE 352 656 352 608
    WIRE 352 656 -16 656
    WIRE 544 672 544 480
    WIRE 688 672 544 672
    WIRE 112 688 112 608
    WIRE 112 688 -16 688
    WIRE 112 704 112 688
    WIRE 352 704 352 656
    WIRE 544 704 544 672
    WIRE -16 720 -16 688
    WIRE 432 720 432 512
    WIRE 688 720 688 672
    WIRE -576 832 -576 688
    WIRE -400 832 -400 336
    WIRE -400 832 -576 832
    WIRE -240 832 -240 608
    WIRE -240 832 -400 832
    WIRE -16 832 -16 784
    WIRE -16 832 -240 832
    WIRE 112 832 112 784
    WIRE 112 832 -16 832
    WIRE 352 832 352 784
    WIRE 352 832 112 832
    WIRE 432 832 432 784
    WIRE 432 832 352 832
    WIRE 544 832 544 784
    WIRE 544 832 432 832
    WIRE 832 832 832 688
    WIRE 832 832 544 832
    WIRE -576 880 -576 832
    WIRE 224 896 224 512
    WIRE 256 896 224 896
    WIRE 496 896 336 896
    WIRE 544 896 496 896
    WIRE 688 896 688 784
    WIRE 688 896 624 896
    WIRE 224 1024 224 896
    WIRE 256 1024 224 1024
    WIRE 368 1024 336 1024
    WIRE 400 1024 368 1024
    WIRE 496 1024 496 896
    WIRE 496 1024 464 1024
    WIRE 224 1136 224 1024
    WIRE 256 1136 224 1136
    WIRE 368 1136 368 1024
    WIRE 368 1136 320 1136
    FLAG -576 880 0
    FLAG 192 112 0
    FLAG -288 400 input
    FLAG -272 16 0
    FLAG 832 480 output
    SYMBOL pjf 64 64 R0
    WINDOW 0 -32 -1 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -87 35 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName J1
    SYMATTR Value 2N4302
    SYMBOL res 96 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 150k
    SYMBOL voltage -400 240 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
    WINDOW 39 -151 71 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -79 36 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR Value 24
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMBOL npn 48 352 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 96 176 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 27k
    SYMBOL npn 480 -16 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q2
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 336 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 22k
    SYMBOL npn 288 272 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q3
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL polcap 176 16 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C2
    SYMATTR Value 47
    SYMBOL res 96 512 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R4
    SYMATTR Value 470
    SYMBOL res 96 688 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R5
    SYMATTR Value 39k
    SYMBOL res -32 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 -41 40 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -63 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R6
    SYMATTR Value 270k
    SYMBOL cap 80 480 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 470p
    SYMBOL polcap -32 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C3
    SYMATTR Value 47
    SYMBOL res -32 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R7
    SYMATTR Value 1k
    SYMBOL polcap -160 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C4
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL res -256 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 40 38 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 36 74 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R8
    SYMATTR Value 68k
    SYMBOL res 528 688 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R9
    SYMATTR Value 3k3
    SYMBOL cap 304 192 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C5
    SYMATTR Value 10p
    SYMBOL res 336 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 -52 35 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -58 72 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R10
    SYMATTR Value 5.6k
    SYMBOL res 336 688 R0
    WINDOW 0 -53 28 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -47 61 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R11
    SYMATTR Value 10k
    SYMBOL res 336 384 R0
    WINDOW 0 -59 36 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -61 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R12
    SYMATTR Value 2.2k
    SYMBOL res 352 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R13
    SYMATTR Value 680k
    SYMBOL res 640 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R14
    SYMATTR Value 1.5k
    SYMBOL res 352 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R15
    SYMATTR Value 24k
    SYMBOL cap 320 1120 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C6
    SYMATTR Value 3.3n
    SYMBOL cap 464 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C7
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    SYMBOL polcap 672 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C8
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL polcap 416 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C9
    SYMATTR Value 100
    SYMBOL polcap -288 -96 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C10
    SYMATTR Value 220
    SYMBOL polcap 592 496 R270
    WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2
    WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2
    SYMATTR InstName C11
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL res 784 464 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R16
    SYMATTR Value 100
    SYMBOL res 816 592 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R17
    SYMATTR Value 1000k
    SYMBOL voltage -576 592 R0
    WINDOW 3 -283 51 Left 2
    WINDOW 123 -283 79 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 -283 107 Left 2
    SYMATTR Value SINE(0 0.1 1000)
    SYMATTR Value2 AC 0.1 0
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
    SYMATTR InstName V2
    TEXT -864 808 Left 2 ;.ac oct 20 5 3000000
    TEXT -416 1264 Left 2 !.MODEL 2N4302 njf VTO=-1.17 BETA=519u LAMBDA=7.72m CGD=2.30p CGS=2.30p PB=12.5 IS=14.9f MFG=InterFET
    TEXT -864 880 Left 2 !.tran 100m

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Mon Sep 30 11:18:40 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 13:21:56 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message news:7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K. >>>>
    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    Why not ask about the essential features of the circuit below.
    Extra credit: What's it for?

    Knowledge of things which were useful decades ago may not be so useful now.

    How many students think that knowing how to design circuits like the one below will help them make money?

    Version 4
    SHEET 1 960 1280
    WIRE -272 -144 -400 -144
    WIRE 112 -144 -272 -144
    WIRE 352 -144 112 -144
    WIRE 544 -144 352 -144
    WIRE -272 -96 -272 -144
    WIRE 112 -96 112 -144
    WIRE 352 -96 352 -144
    WIRE 544 -16 544 -144
    WIRE -272 16 -272 -32
    WIRE 112 16 112 -16
    WIRE 192 16 112 16
    WIRE 352 32 352 -16
    WIRE 480 32 352 32
    WIRE 112 64 112 16
    WIRE 192 112 192 80
    WIRE 64 128 16 128
    WIRE 112 192 112 160
    WIRE 240 208 208 208
    WIRE 544 208 544 80
    WIRE 544 208 304 208
    WIRE -400 256 -400 -144
    WIRE 352 272 352 32
    WIRE 16 304 16 128
    WIRE 112 304 112 272
    WIRE 112 304 16 304
    WIRE 112 320 112 304
    WIRE 208 320 208 208
    WIRE 208 320 112 320
    WIRE 288 320 208 320
    WIRE 112 352 112 320
    WIRE -288 400 -576 400
    WIRE -240 400 -288 400
    WIRE -224 400 -240 400
    WIRE -128 400 -160 400
    WIRE -16 400 -48 400
    WIRE 48 400 -16 400
    WIRE 352 400 352 368
    WIRE 544 480 544 208
    WIRE 592 480 544 480
    WIRE 688 480 656 480
    WIRE 832 480 768 480
    WIRE 880 480 832 480
    WIRE -16 496 -16 400
    WIRE 16 496 -16 496
    WIRE 112 496 112 448
    WIRE 112 496 80 496
    WIRE 112 512 112 496
    WIRE 224 512 112 512
    WIRE 352 512 352 480
    WIRE 432 512 352 512
    WIRE -240 528 -240 400
    WIRE -16 528 -16 496
    WIRE 112 528 112 512
    WIRE 352 528 352 512
    WIRE -576 608 -576 400
    WIRE 832 608 832 480
    WIRE -16 656 -16 608
    WIRE 352 656 352 608
    WIRE 352 656 -16 656
    WIRE 544 672 544 480
    WIRE 688 672 544 672
    WIRE 112 688 112 608
    WIRE 112 688 -16 688
    WIRE 112 704 112 688
    WIRE 352 704 352 656
    WIRE 544 704 544 672
    WIRE -16 720 -16 688
    WIRE 432 720 432 512
    WIRE 688 720 688 672
    WIRE -576 832 -576 688
    WIRE -400 832 -400 336
    WIRE -400 832 -576 832
    WIRE -240 832 -240 608
    WIRE -240 832 -400 832
    WIRE -16 832 -16 784
    WIRE -16 832 -240 832
    WIRE 112 832 112 784
    WIRE 112 832 -16 832
    WIRE 352 832 352 784
    WIRE 352 832 112 832
    WIRE 432 832 432 784
    WIRE 432 832 352 832
    WIRE 544 832 544 784
    WIRE 544 832 432 832
    WIRE 832 832 832 688
    WIRE 832 832 544 832
    WIRE -576 880 -576 832
    WIRE 224 896 224 512
    WIRE 256 896 224 896
    WIRE 496 896 336 896
    WIRE 544 896 496 896
    WIRE 688 896 688 784
    WIRE 688 896 624 896
    WIRE 224 1024 224 896
    WIRE 256 1024 224 1024
    WIRE 368 1024 336 1024
    WIRE 400 1024 368 1024
    WIRE 496 1024 496 896
    WIRE 496 1024 464 1024
    WIRE 224 1136 224 1024
    WIRE 256 1136 224 1136
    WIRE 368 1136 368 1024
    WIRE 368 1136 320 1136
    FLAG -576 880 0
    FLAG 192 112 0
    FLAG -288 400 input
    FLAG -272 16 0
    FLAG 832 480 output
    SYMBOL pjf 64 64 R0
    WINDOW 0 -32 -1 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -87 35 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName J1
    SYMATTR Value 2N4302
    SYMBOL res 96 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 150k
    SYMBOL voltage -400 240 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
    WINDOW 39 -151 71 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -79 36 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR Value 24
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMBOL npn 48 352 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 96 176 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 27k
    SYMBOL npn 480 -16 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q2
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 336 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 22k
    SYMBOL npn 288 272 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q3
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL polcap 176 16 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C2
    SYMATTR Value 47
    SYMBOL res 96 512 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R4
    SYMATTR Value 470
    SYMBOL res 96 688 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R5
    SYMATTR Value 39k
    SYMBOL res -32 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 -41 40 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -63 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R6
    SYMATTR Value 270k
    SYMBOL cap 80 480 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 470p
    SYMBOL polcap -32 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C3
    SYMATTR Value 47
    SYMBOL res -32 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R7
    SYMATTR Value 1k
    SYMBOL polcap -160 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C4
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL res -256 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 40 38 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 36 74 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R8
    SYMATTR Value 68k
    SYMBOL res 528 688 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R9
    SYMATTR Value 3k3
    SYMBOL cap 304 192 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C5
    SYMATTR Value 10p
    SYMBOL res 336 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 -52 35 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -58 72 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R10
    SYMATTR Value 5.6k
    SYMBOL res 336 688 R0
    WINDOW 0 -53 28 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -47 61 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R11
    SYMATTR Value 10k
    SYMBOL res 336 384 R0
    WINDOW 0 -59 36 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -61 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R12
    SYMATTR Value 2.2k
    SYMBOL res 352 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R13
    SYMATTR Value 680k
    SYMBOL res 640 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R14
    SYMATTR Value 1.5k
    SYMBOL res 352 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R15
    SYMATTR Value 24k
    SYMBOL cap 320 1120 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C6
    SYMATTR Value 3.3n
    SYMBOL cap 464 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C7
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    SYMBOL polcap 672 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C8
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL polcap 416 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C9
    SYMATTR Value 100
    SYMBOL polcap -288 -96 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C10
    SYMATTR Value 220
    SYMBOL polcap 592 496 R270
    WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2
    WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2
    SYMATTR InstName C11
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL res 784 464 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R16
    SYMATTR Value 100
    SYMBOL res 816 592 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R17
    SYMATTR Value 1000k
    SYMBOL voltage -576 592 R0
    WINDOW 3 -283 51 Left 2
    WINDOW 123 -283 79 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 -283 107 Left 2
    SYMATTR Value SINE(0 0.1 1000)
    SYMATTR Value2 AC 0.1 0
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
    SYMATTR InstName V2
    TEXT -864 808 Left 2 ;.ac oct 20 5 3000000
    TEXT -416 1264 Left 2 !.MODEL 2N4302 njf VTO=-1.17 BETA=519u LAMBDA=7.72m CGD=2.30p CGS=2.30p PB=12.5 IS=14.9f MFG=InterFET
    TEXT -864 880 Left 2 !.tran 100m





    R8 and C10 are interesting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Arie de Muijnck@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 21:37:29 2024
    On 2024-09-30 17:24, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K. >>>
    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>> electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's
    silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?


    Think a resistor of 1K times hFE in parallel to the lower base divider resistor and recalculate for a better approximation.
    Or estimate Ib from Ie/hFE and use the Thevenin of the base resistors to correct the base drive voltage.
    Or use LTspice...

    Arie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 16:04:08 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:16:56 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:12:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:02:38 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote: >>>>>>
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training? >>>>>>>>>
    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>>>>applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>>>>>10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>>>>they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>>>>not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>>>And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>>>and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>>>>>and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>>>>>1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>>>electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter >>>>>1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base >>>>>voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    Smart-ass answer: Who knows ... nobody uses vacuum tubes or bipolar >>>>transistors any more.

    Joe Gwinn

    So assume a common n-channel mosfet, like a 2N7000. What are the
    answers?

    Where's the Microcontroller Programmers Guide?

    Joe Gwinn

    So many people here prefer snarks to parts.

    Probably few actually understand simple circuits.

    Both true. I would have gotten the bit about emitter followers being
    able to oscillate, because while they have no voltage gain, they do
    have power gain, so can be made to oscillate nicely with a
    multi-tapped ferrite pot core inductor and a film capacitor. This is
    how the old Touch-Tone keypads worked, with Germanium transistors
    even. Later were silicon.

    My equivalent to your emitter follower test is higher-level, because I
    was in the software labs in those days, but we were interfacing to
    hardware.

    I would give the candidate a 11x17 inch sheet of paper and a pencil,
    and ask the candidate to draw a diagram of the components of their
    senior project, and walk me through it step by step. This was quite
    effective at eliminating the poseurs, as they could not get much
    beyond high-level platitudes. People who had actually designed a
    built something would not run out of deep details.

    And I was on the receiving end of such a question when I was job
    seeking in the 1970s or so. There was this startup which was building something that ran on SEL 32/55 midi computers, an IBM 360 clone
    optimized for process control. (SEL 32/55s are now a chip.)

    The question was to diagram and explain how an I/O Channel Control
    worked. It's a linked chain of data blocks, each block specifying an
    action or setting. In those days, these blocks were data structured
    usually generated with macros, but in earlier days one just wrote the
    data structure directly in hex.

    Anyway I passed, but the company was a bit too anarchic for my taste.
    Many years later, my main interviewer applied for a job (not knowing
    that I was the manager), and I hired him. The very fact that he could
    follow what I was saying back in the day was enough proof of
    capability. Small world.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Mon Sep 30 12:45:46 2024
    On 9/30/24 10:21 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message news:7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>> electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's
    silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    Why not ask about the essential features of the circuit below.
    Extra credit: What's it for?

    Knowledge of things which were useful decades ago may not be so useful now.

    How many students think that knowing how to design circuits like the one below will help them make money?

    Version 4
    SHEET 1 960 1280
    WIRE -272 -144 -400 -144
    WIRE 112 -144 -272 -144
    WIRE 352 -144 112 -144
    WIRE 544 -144 352 -144
    WIRE -272 -96 -272 -144
    WIRE 112 -96 112 -144
    WIRE 352 -96 352 -144
    WIRE 544 -16 544 -144
    WIRE -272 16 -272 -32
    WIRE 112 16 112 -16
    WIRE 192 16 112 16
    WIRE 352 32 352 -16
    WIRE 480 32 352 32
    WIRE 112 64 112 16
    WIRE 192 112 192 80
    WIRE 64 128 16 128
    WIRE 112 192 112 160
    WIRE 240 208 208 208
    WIRE 544 208 544 80
    WIRE 544 208 304 208
    WIRE -400 256 -400 -144
    WIRE 352 272 352 32
    WIRE 16 304 16 128
    WIRE 112 304 112 272
    WIRE 112 304 16 304
    WIRE 112 320 112 304
    WIRE 208 320 208 208
    WIRE 208 320 112 320
    WIRE 288 320 208 320
    WIRE 112 352 112 320
    WIRE -288 400 -576 400
    WIRE -240 400 -288 400
    WIRE -224 400 -240 400
    WIRE -128 400 -160 400
    WIRE -16 400 -48 400
    WIRE 48 400 -16 400
    WIRE 352 400 352 368
    WIRE 544 480 544 208
    WIRE 592 480 544 480
    WIRE 688 480 656 480
    WIRE 832 480 768 480
    WIRE 880 480 832 480
    WIRE -16 496 -16 400
    WIRE 16 496 -16 496
    WIRE 112 496 112 448
    WIRE 112 496 80 496
    WIRE 112 512 112 496
    WIRE 224 512 112 512
    WIRE 352 512 352 480
    WIRE 432 512 352 512
    WIRE -240 528 -240 400
    WIRE -16 528 -16 496
    WIRE 112 528 112 512
    WIRE 352 528 352 512
    WIRE -576 608 -576 400
    WIRE 832 608 832 480
    WIRE -16 656 -16 608
    WIRE 352 656 352 608
    WIRE 352 656 -16 656
    WIRE 544 672 544 480
    WIRE 688 672 544 672
    WIRE 112 688 112 608
    WIRE 112 688 -16 688
    WIRE 112 704 112 688
    WIRE 352 704 352 656
    WIRE 544 704 544 672
    WIRE -16 720 -16 688
    WIRE 432 720 432 512
    WIRE 688 720 688 672
    WIRE -576 832 -576 688
    WIRE -400 832 -400 336
    WIRE -400 832 -576 832
    WIRE -240 832 -240 608
    WIRE -240 832 -400 832
    WIRE -16 832 -16 784
    WIRE -16 832 -240 832
    WIRE 112 832 112 784
    WIRE 112 832 -16 832
    WIRE 352 832 352 784
    WIRE 352 832 112 832
    WIRE 432 832 432 784
    WIRE 432 832 352 832
    WIRE 544 832 544 784
    WIRE 544 832 432 832
    WIRE 832 832 832 688
    WIRE 832 832 544 832
    WIRE -576 880 -576 832
    WIRE 224 896 224 512
    WIRE 256 896 224 896
    WIRE 496 896 336 896
    WIRE 544 896 496 896
    WIRE 688 896 688 784
    WIRE 688 896 624 896
    WIRE 224 1024 224 896
    WIRE 256 1024 224 1024
    WIRE 368 1024 336 1024
    WIRE 400 1024 368 1024
    WIRE 496 1024 496 896
    WIRE 496 1024 464 1024
    WIRE 224 1136 224 1024
    WIRE 256 1136 224 1136
    WIRE 368 1136 368 1024
    WIRE 368 1136 320 1136
    FLAG -576 880 0
    FLAG 192 112 0
    FLAG -288 400 input
    FLAG -272 16 0
    FLAG 832 480 output
    SYMBOL pjf 64 64 R0
    WINDOW 0 -32 -1 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -87 35 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName J1
    SYMATTR Value 2N4302
    SYMBOL res 96 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 150k
    SYMBOL voltage -400 240 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
    WINDOW 39 -151 71 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -79 36 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR Value 24
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMBOL npn 48 352 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 96 176 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 27k
    SYMBOL npn 480 -16 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q2
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 336 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 22k
    SYMBOL npn 288 272 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q3
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL polcap 176 16 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C2
    SYMATTR Value 47ľ
    SYMBOL res 96 512 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R4
    SYMATTR Value 470
    SYMBOL res 96 688 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R5
    SYMATTR Value 39k
    SYMBOL res -32 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 -41 40 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -63 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R6
    SYMATTR Value 270k
    SYMBOL cap 80 480 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 470p
    SYMBOL polcap -32 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C3
    SYMATTR Value 47ľ
    SYMBOL res -32 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R7
    SYMATTR Value 1k
    SYMBOL polcap -160 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C4
    SYMATTR Value 1ľ
    SYMBOL res -256 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 40 38 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 36 74 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R8
    SYMATTR Value 68k
    SYMBOL res 528 688 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R9
    SYMATTR Value 3k3
    SYMBOL cap 304 192 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C5
    SYMATTR Value 10p
    SYMBOL res 336 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 -52 35 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -58 72 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R10
    SYMATTR Value 5.6k
    SYMBOL res 336 688 R0
    WINDOW 0 -53 28 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -47 61 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R11
    SYMATTR Value 10k
    SYMBOL res 336 384 R0
    WINDOW 0 -59 36 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -61 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R12
    SYMATTR Value 2.2k
    SYMBOL res 352 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R13
    SYMATTR Value 680k
    SYMBOL res 640 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R14
    SYMATTR Value 1.5k
    SYMBOL res 352 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R15
    SYMATTR Value 24k
    SYMBOL cap 320 1120 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C6
    SYMATTR Value 3.3n
    SYMBOL cap 464 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C7
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    SYMBOL polcap 672 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C8
    SYMATTR Value 1ľ
    SYMBOL polcap 416 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C9
    SYMATTR Value 100ľ
    SYMBOL polcap -288 -96 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C10
    SYMATTR Value 220ľ
    SYMBOL polcap 592 496 R270
    WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2
    WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2
    SYMATTR InstName C11
    SYMATTR Value 1ľ
    SYMBOL res 784 464 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R16
    SYMATTR Value 100
    SYMBOL res 816 592 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R17
    SYMATTR Value 1000k
    SYMBOL voltage -576 592 R0
    WINDOW 3 -283 51 Left 2
    WINDOW 123 -283 79 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 -283 107 Left 2
    SYMATTR Value SINE(0 0.1 1000)
    SYMATTR Value2 AC 0.1 0
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
    SYMATTR InstName V2
    TEXT -864 808 Left 2 ;.ac oct 20 5 3000000
    TEXT -416 1264 Left 2 !.MODEL 2N4302 njf VTO=-1.17 BETA=519u LAMBDA=7.72m CGD=2.30p CGS=2.30p PB=12.5 IS=14.9f MFG=InterFET
    TEXT -864 880 Left 2 !.tran 100m


    Looks like an audio pre-amp with RIAA equalization for a moving coil pickup.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Mon Sep 30 23:35:00 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 15:51:38 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>> electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN
    emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's
    silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Extra credit: anything else to say?


    Standard ROT circuit from technician school BITD.

    Beta of 200ish, roughly 4 mA I_C, so the base pulls 20 uA. With a 5k
    source, itll sag 100 mV, not much.

    So V_E will be near 4.3 V, unless it oscillates, which it probably wont >unless its built on one of those nasty white nylon slab things.

    (Technician school is particularly insistent on the distinction between
    beta and beta+1 in circuits, even though datasheet limits easily exceed
    2:1.)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Congratuations, Phil. You're hired! :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to kevin_es@whitedigs.com on Mon Sep 30 18:29:31 2024
    "KevinJ93" <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> wrote in message news:vdev5a$2c45n$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/30/24 10:21 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message news:7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?
    ...

    Looks like an audio pre-amp with RIAA equalization for a moving coil pickup.


    https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/70s/Wireless-World-1974-12-S-OCR.pdf
    Page 503 (pdf page 37)

    One thing I just noticed is that 2N4302 is n channel but shown as p channel.

    Anyone know of a part I can still buy which is sufficiently equivalent?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Mon Sep 30 17:38:44 2024
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 18:29:31 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "KevinJ93" <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> wrote in message news:vdev5a$2c45n$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/30/24 10:21 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message news:7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?
    ...

    Looks like an audio pre-amp with RIAA equalization for a moving coil pickup. >>

    https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/70s/Wireless-World-1974-12-S-OCR.pdf
    Page 503 (pdf page 37)

    One thing I just noticed is that 2N4302 is n channel but shown as p channel.

    Anyone know of a part I can still buy which is sufficiently equivalent?


    You could bootstrap a collector resistor and get about the same
    effect.

    The Supertex depletion fets make nice constant-current loads too. They
    are very repeatible, unlike jfets.

    What's the expected current in the jfet?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 21:19:36 2024
    "john larkin" <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in message news:hugmfj91o9i4p37suanbr9p49o12p131vs@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 18:29:31 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "KevinJ93" <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> wrote in message news:vdev5a$2c45n$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/30/24 10:21 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message news:7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?
    ...

    Looks like an audio pre-amp with RIAA equalization for a moving coil pickup.

    https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/70s/Wireless-World-1974-12-S-OCR.pdf
    Page 503 (pdf page 37)

    One thing I just noticed is that 2N4302 is n channel but shown as p channel. >>
    Anyone know of a part I can still buy which is sufficiently equivalent?


    You could bootstrap a collector resistor and get about the same
    effect.

    The Supertex depletion fets make nice constant-current loads too. They
    are very repeatible, unlike jfets.

    What's the expected current in the jfet?


    The current in the FET is about 50 uA in this version which has been adusted for 12V rather than 24V power.

    Looks like J113 is a reasonable replacement in this circuit, and it is available.

    Version 4
    SHEET 1 1144 1280
    WIRE -272 -144 -400 -144
    WIRE 112 -144 -272 -144
    WIRE 352 -144 112 -144
    WIRE 544 -144 352 -144
    WIRE -272 -96 -272 -144
    WIRE 112 -96 112 -144
    WIRE 352 -96 352 -144
    WIRE 544 -16 544 -144
    WIRE -272 16 -272 -32
    WIRE 112 16 112 -16
    WIRE 192 16 112 16
    WIRE 352 32 352 -16
    WIRE 480 32 352 32
    WIRE 112 64 112 16
    WIRE 192 112 192 80
    WIRE 64 128 16 128
    WIRE 112 176 112 160
    WIRE 176 176 112 176
    WIRE 112 192 112 176
    WIRE 272 208 240 208
    WIRE 544 208 544 80
    WIRE 544 208 336 208
    WIRE -400 256 -400 -144
    WIRE 352 272 352 32
    WIRE 16 304 16 128
    WIRE 112 304 112 272
    WIRE 112 304 16 304
    WIRE 112 320 112 304
    WIRE 240 320 240 208
    WIRE 240 320 112 320
    WIRE 288 320 240 320
    WIRE 112 352 112 320
    WIRE -288 400 -576 400
    WIRE -240 400 -288 400
    WIRE -224 400 -240 400
    WIRE -128 400 -160 400
    WIRE -16 400 -48 400
    WIRE 48 400 -16 400
    WIRE 352 400 352 368
    WIRE 432 400 352 400
    WIRE 352 416 352 400
    WIRE 544 480 544 208
    WIRE 592 480 544 480
    WIRE 688 480 656 480
    WIRE 832 480 768 480
    WIRE 880 480 832 480
    WIRE -16 496 -16 400
    WIRE 16 496 -16 496
    WIRE 112 496 112 448
    WIRE 112 496 80 496
    WIRE 112 512 112 496
    WIRE 224 512 112 512
    WIRE -240 528 -240 400
    WIRE -16 528 -16 496
    WIRE 352 528 352 496
    WIRE 432 528 352 528
    WIRE 112 544 112 512
    WIRE 352 544 352 528
    WIRE -576 608 -576 400
    WIRE 832 608 832 480
    WIRE -16 656 -16 608
    WIRE 352 656 352 624
    WIRE 352 656 -16 656
    WIRE 544 672 544 480
    WIRE 688 672 544 672
    WIRE 112 688 112 624
    WIRE 112 688 -16 688
    WIRE -16 720 -16 688
    WIRE 112 720 112 688
    WIRE 352 720 352 656
    WIRE 432 720 432 528
    WIRE 544 720 544 672
    WIRE 688 720 688 672
    WIRE -576 832 -576 688
    WIRE -400 832 -400 336
    WIRE -400 832 -576 832
    WIRE -240 832 -240 608
    WIRE -240 832 -400 832
    WIRE -16 832 -16 784
    WIRE -16 832 -240 832
    WIRE 112 832 112 800
    WIRE 112 832 -16 832
    WIRE 352 832 352 800
    WIRE 352 832 112 832
    WIRE 432 832 432 784
    WIRE 432 832 352 832
    WIRE 544 832 544 800
    WIRE 544 832 432 832
    WIRE 832 832 832 688
    WIRE 832 832 544 832
    WIRE -576 880 -576 832
    WIRE 224 896 224 512
    WIRE 256 896 224 896
    WIRE 496 896 336 896
    WIRE 544 896 496 896
    WIRE 688 896 688 784
    WIRE 688 896 624 896
    WIRE 224 1024 224 896
    WIRE 256 1024 224 1024
    WIRE 368 1024 336 1024
    WIRE 400 1024 368 1024
    WIRE 496 1024 496 896
    WIRE 496 1024 464 1024
    WIRE 224 1136 224 1024
    WIRE 256 1136 224 1136
    WIRE 368 1136 368 1024
    WIRE 368 1136 320 1136
    FLAG -576 880 0
    FLAG 192 112 0
    FLAG -288 400 input
    FLAG -272 16 0
    FLAG 832 480 output
    DATAFLAG 496 208 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 400 528 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 304 656 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 16 400 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 160 512 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 64 688 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 160 16 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 176 320 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 400 400 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 400 32 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 160 176 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG -352 -144 "round(($)*100)/100"
    SYMBOL res 96 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 47k
    SYMBOL voltage -400 240 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
    WINDOW 39 -151 71 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -79 36 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR Value 12
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMBOL npn 48 352 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 96 176 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 27k
    SYMBOL npn 480 -16 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q2
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 336 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 22k
    SYMBOL npn 288 272 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q3
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL polcap 176 16 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C2
    SYMATTR Value 68
    SYMBOL res 96 528 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R4
    SYMATTR Value 470
    SYMBOL res 96 704 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R5
    SYMATTR Value 39k
    SYMBOL res -32 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 -41 40 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -63 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R6
    SYMATTR Value 270k
    SYMBOL cap 80 480 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 470p
    SYMBOL polcap -32 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C3
    SYMATTR Value 22
    SYMBOL res -32 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R7
    SYMATTR Value 1k
    SYMBOL polcap -160 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C4
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL res -256 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 40 38 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 36 74 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R8
    SYMATTR Value 68k
    SYMBOL res 528 704 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R9
    SYMATTR Value 3.3k
    SYMBOL cap 336 192 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C5
    SYMATTR Value 10p
    SYMBOL res 336 528 R0
    WINDOW 0 -52 35 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -58 72 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R10
    SYMATTR Value 5.6k
    SYMBOL res 336 704 R0
    WINDOW 0 -53 28 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -47 61 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R11
    SYMATTR Value 10k
    SYMBOL res 336 400 R0
    WINDOW 0 -59 36 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -61 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R12
    SYMATTR Value 2.2k
    SYMBOL res 352 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R13
    SYMATTR Value 680k
    SYMBOL res 640 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R14
    SYMATTR Value 1.5k
    SYMBOL res 352 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R15
    SYMATTR Value 24k
    SYMBOL cap 320 1120 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C6
    SYMATTR Value 3.3n
    SYMBOL cap 464 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C7
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    SYMBOL polcap 672 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C8
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL polcap 416 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C9
    SYMATTR Value 100
    SYMBOL polcap -288 -96 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C10
    SYMATTR Value 220
    SYMBOL polcap 592 496 R270
    WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2
    WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2
    SYMATTR InstName C11
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL res 784 464 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R16
    SYMATTR Value 100
    SYMBOL res 816 592 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R17
    SYMATTR Value 1000k
    SYMBOL voltage -576 592 R0
    WINDOW 3 -283 51 Left 2
    WINDOW 123 -283 79 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 -283 107 Left 2
    SYMATTR Value SINE(0 0.1 1000)
    SYMATTR Value2 AC 0.1 0
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
    SYMATTR InstName V2
    SYMBOL njf 64 64 R0
    WINDOW 0 -8 -8 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -51 22 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName J1
    SYMATTR Value J113
    TEXT -864 808 Left 2 !.ac oct 20 5 3000000
    TEXT -864 880 Left 2 ;.tran 100m

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 30 22:57:23 2024
    "john larkin" <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in message news:hugmfj91o9i4p37suanbr9p49o12p131vs@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 18:29:31 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "KevinJ93" <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> wrote in message news:vdev5a$2c45n$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/30/24 10:21 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message news:7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?
    ...

    Looks like an audio pre-amp with RIAA equalization for a moving coil pickup.

    https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/70s/Wireless-World-1974-12-S-OCR.pdf
    Page 503 (pdf page 37)

    One thing I just noticed is that 2N4302 is n channel but shown as p channel. >>
    Anyone know of a part I can still buy which is sufficiently equivalent?


    You could bootstrap a collector resistor and get about the same
    effect.

    It can't be denied that a bootstrap version has similar, maybe near enough identical performance and eliminates the FET completely.

    Version 4
    SHEET 1 1144 1280
    WIRE -272 -144 -400 -144
    WIRE 112 -144 -272 -144
    WIRE 352 -144 112 -144
    WIRE 544 -144 352 -144
    WIRE -272 -96 -272 -144
    WIRE 112 -96 112 -144
    WIRE 352 -96 352 -144
    WIRE 544 -16 544 -144
    WIRE -272 16 -272 -32
    WIRE 112 32 112 -16
    WIRE 208 32 112 32
    WIRE 352 32 352 -16
    WIRE 480 32 352 32
    WIRE 208 80 208 32
    WIRE 112 128 112 32
    WIRE 272 208 240 208
    WIRE 544 208 544 80
    WIRE 544 208 336 208
    WIRE -400 256 -400 -144
    WIRE 352 272 352 32
    WIRE 112 320 112 208
    WIRE 240 320 240 208
    WIRE 240 320 112 320
    WIRE 288 320 240 320
    WIRE 112 352 112 320
    WIRE 352 384 352 368
    WIRE 432 384 352 384
    WIRE -288 400 -576 400
    WIRE -240 400 -288 400
    WIRE -224 400 -240 400
    WIRE -128 400 -160 400
    WIRE -16 400 -48 400
    WIRE 48 400 -16 400
    WIRE 208 400 208 144
    WIRE 352 400 352 384
    WIRE 352 400 208 400
    WIRE 352 416 352 400
    WIRE 544 480 544 208
    WIRE 592 480 544 480
    WIRE 688 480 656 480
    WIRE 832 480 768 480
    WIRE 880 480 832 480
    WIRE -16 496 -16 400
    WIRE 16 496 -16 496
    WIRE 112 496 112 448
    WIRE 112 496 80 496
    WIRE 112 512 112 496
    WIRE 224 512 112 512
    WIRE -240 528 -240 400
    WIRE -16 528 -16 496
    WIRE 352 528 352 496
    WIRE 432 528 352 528
    WIRE 112 544 112 512
    WIRE 352 544 352 528
    WIRE -576 608 -576 400
    WIRE 832 608 832 480
    WIRE -16 656 -16 608
    WIRE 352 656 352 624
    WIRE 352 656 -16 656
    WIRE 544 672 544 480
    WIRE 688 672 544 672
    WIRE 112 688 112 624
    WIRE 112 688 -16 688
    WIRE -16 720 -16 688
    WIRE 112 720 112 688
    WIRE 352 720 352 656
    WIRE 432 720 432 528
    WIRE 544 720 544 672
    WIRE 688 720 688 672
    WIRE -576 832 -576 688
    WIRE -400 832 -400 336
    WIRE -400 832 -576 832
    WIRE -240 832 -240 608
    WIRE -240 832 -400 832
    WIRE -16 832 -16 784
    WIRE -16 832 -240 832
    WIRE 112 832 112 800
    WIRE 112 832 -16 832
    WIRE 352 832 352 800
    WIRE 352 832 112 832
    WIRE 432 832 432 784
    WIRE 432 832 352 832
    WIRE 544 832 544 800
    WIRE 544 832 432 832
    WIRE 832 832 832 688
    WIRE 832 832 544 832
    WIRE -576 880 -576 832
    WIRE 224 896 224 512
    WIRE 256 896 224 896
    WIRE 496 896 336 896
    WIRE 544 896 496 896
    WIRE 688 896 688 784
    WIRE 688 896 624 896
    WIRE 224 1024 224 896
    WIRE 256 1024 224 1024
    WIRE 368 1024 336 1024
    WIRE 400 1024 368 1024
    WIRE 496 1024 496 896
    WIRE 496 1024 464 1024
    WIRE 224 1136 224 1024
    WIRE 256 1136 224 1136
    WIRE 368 1136 368 1024
    WIRE 368 1136 320 1136
    FLAG -576 880 0
    FLAG -288 400 input
    FLAG -272 16 0
    FLAG 832 480 output
    DATAFLAG 496 208 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 400 528 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 304 656 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 16 400 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 160 512 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 64 688 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 160 32 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 160 320 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 400 384 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG 400 32 "round(($)*100)/100"
    DATAFLAG -352 -144 "round(($)*100)/100"
    SYMBOL res 96 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 47k
    SYMBOL voltage -400 240 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 0
    WINDOW 39 -151 71 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -79 36 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR Value 12
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMBOL npn 48 352 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 96 112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 150k
    SYMBOL npn 480 -16 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q2
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL res 336 -112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 22k
    SYMBOL npn 288 272 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q3
    SYMATTR Value 2N3904
    SYMBOL polcap 192 80 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C2
    SYMATTR Value 10
    SYMBOL res 96 528 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R4
    SYMATTR Value 470
    SYMBOL res 96 704 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R5
    SYMATTR Value 39k
    SYMBOL res -32 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 -41 40 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -63 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R6
    SYMATTR Value 270k
    SYMBOL cap 80 480 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 470p
    SYMBOL polcap -32 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C3
    SYMATTR Value 22
    SYMBOL res -32 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R7
    SYMATTR Value 1k
    SYMBOL polcap -160 384 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C4
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL res -256 512 R0
    WINDOW 0 40 38 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 36 74 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R8
    SYMATTR Value 68k
    SYMBOL res 528 704 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R9
    SYMATTR Value 3.3k
    SYMBOL cap 336 192 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C5
    SYMATTR Value 10p
    SYMBOL res 336 528 R0
    WINDOW 0 -52 35 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -58 72 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R10
    SYMATTR Value 5.6k
    SYMBOL res 336 704 R0
    WINDOW 0 -53 28 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -47 61 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R11
    SYMATTR Value 10k
    SYMBOL res 336 400 R0
    WINDOW 0 -59 36 Left 2
    WINDOW 3 -61 76 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName R12
    SYMATTR Value 2.2k
    SYMBOL res 352 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R13
    SYMATTR Value 680k
    SYMBOL res 640 880 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R14
    SYMATTR Value 1.5k
    SYMBOL res 352 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R15
    SYMATTR Value 24k
    SYMBOL cap 320 1120 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C6
    SYMATTR Value 3.3n
    SYMBOL cap 464 1008 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C7
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    SYMBOL polcap 672 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C8
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL polcap 416 720 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C9
    SYMATTR Value 100
    SYMBOL polcap -288 -96 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C10
    SYMATTR Value 220
    SYMBOL polcap 592 496 R270
    WINDOW 0 32 32 VTop 2
    WINDOW 3 0 32 VBottom 2
    SYMATTR InstName C11
    SYMATTR Value 1
    SYMBOL res 784 464 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R16
    SYMATTR Value 100
    SYMBOL res 816 592 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R17
    SYMATTR Value 1000k
    SYMBOL voltage -576 592 R0
    WINDOW 3 -283 51 Left 2
    WINDOW 123 -283 79 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 -283 107 Left 2
    SYMATTR Value SINE(0 0.1 1000)
    SYMATTR Value2 AC 0.1 0
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0
    SYMATTR InstName V2
    TEXT -864 808 Left 2 !.ac oct 20 5 3000000
    TEXT -864 880 Left 2 ;.tran 100m



    The Supertex depletion fets make nice constant-current loads too. They
    are very repeatible, unlike jfets.

    What's the expected current in the jfet?


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Oct 1 14:53:32 2024
    On 1/10/2024 1:16 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:12:25 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:02:38 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:29:42 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 14:13:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:53:30 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote: >>>>>>
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:



    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>>> I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training? >>>>>>>>>
    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>>>>> applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>>>>> they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>>>>> not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>>> Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>>> And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>>> and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See

    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with >>>>>>> 1K.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?

    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>> volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>>> electronics now.

    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>> emitter follower.

    What do you ask them about that?

    V+=10. Two 10K resistors up and down to set the base voltage. Emitter >>>>> 1K to ground.

    What's the base voltage? Some people have said 0.6, because base
    voltages are always 0.6.

    What's the emitter voltage? Collector current?

    Anything else to say?

    Trick question: what's the collector voltage?

    Smart-ass answer: Who knows ... nobody uses vacuum tubes or bipolar
    transistors any more.

    Joe Gwinn

    So assume a common n-channel mosfet, like a 2N7000. What are the
    answers?

    Where's the Microcontroller Programmers Guide?

    Joe Gwinn

    So many people here prefer snarks to parts.

    Probably few actually understand simple circuits.

    John Larkin doesn't seem to understand the two transistor
    emitter-coupled monostable.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to JL@gct.com on Tue Oct 1 06:11:49 2024
    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K. >>>
    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN)
    you need to take into account the base current that will among other things decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Tue Oct 1 06:35:35 2024
    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 18:29:31 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <vdf8oc$1qf3$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "KevinJ93" <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> wrote in message news:vdev5a$2c45n$1@dont-email.me...
    On 9/30/24 10:21 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "john larkin" <JL@gct.com> wrote in message news:7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com...
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into
    paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?
    ...

    Looks like an audio pre-amp with RIAA equalization for a moving coil pickup. >>

    https://worldradiohistory.com/UK/Wireless-World/70s/Wireless-World-1974-12-S-OCR.pdf
    Page 503 (pdf page 37)

    One thing I just noticed is that 2N4302 is n channel but shown as p channel.

    Anyone know of a part I can still buy which is sufficiently equivalent?

    I use BF245C for most FET stuff.
    Should be fast enough for even the best audiophiles...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to cd@notformail.com on Tue Oct 1 06:44:03 2024
    XPost: us.politics

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 16:40:18 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <mfhlfjptm3rgmglttigt52hjo60k21pgmn@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 14:35:52 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 14:30:48 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <3i9lfj57mhfe657c5mcbd3mmap61q4m1ik@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:35:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:05:37 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>>><cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2stkfjph6d7s5h50hafmsia5ep7209ds3e@4ax.com>: >>>>
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:31:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:49:25 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <de4jfjlq704080370lfofh0k0bu3njqn9u@4ax.com>: >>>>>>
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:


    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing >>>>>>>>>>>>But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>>>>>>>I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up
    with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones
    sort
    of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards .. >>>>>>>>>>>>Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training? >>>>>>>>>>>
    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job
    applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If
    they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it >>>>>>>>>>Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed... >>>>>>>>>>And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example.
    And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that >>>>>>>>>>and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and
    resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value.
    and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See >>>>>>>>>>Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim, >>>>>>>>>>The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue >>>>>>>>>>will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"
    Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my >>>>>>>>>example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that >>>>>>>>>anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately, >>>>>>>>>as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he >>>>>>>>>interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are >>>>>>>>>going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned >>>>>>>>>the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And >>>>>>>>>on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first >>>>>>>>>approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's >>>>>>>>>grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days.
    Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school >>>>>>>>it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..

    What's happening is that the normal distribution is getting wider, and >>>>>>>not just in the USA. Some of the fringes are geniuses, and a society >>>>>>>benefits from having even a few geniuses.

    Look at China


    Being reflexively anti-American is no substitute for thinking. I still >>>>>>>think that the USA is the best place to design electronics.

    I observe, like I do when I use a scope to see what is happening in a circuit.
    Now is-a-hell hits Jemen.. US weapon factories are having a party, >>>>>>you pay more taxes..
    Bad system.

    As your enemies get more powerful and more unite, you are a sitting duck. >>>>>>Just a big war industry making war to sell at taxpayer's cost >>>>>>making losses, a deficit the greatest on earth and in history.

    Should any sane person ADMIRE that disaster?
    Half senile president and an ego tripper criminal as aspiring precedent. >>>>>>
    Hide under the table I've heard is the tactics recommended by you leaders.
    ?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg9scNl9h4Q

    Yep, that is the one :-)

    Indeed. But for those of us humans without shells, I'm assured hiding >>>under a school desk is equally effective for any nuclear blasts up to
    10 megatons.



    I couldn't find the version with advert at the end "sponsored by Acme >>>>>Cigarettes - the mild smoke for kids" :-)

    Oops..
    Anyways they are all on Fetanyl or something these days?

    Yeah, the under 10s are all on Fentanyl and the teenagers have moved
    on to this stuff called 'duster' I gather. I'm told it's 20 times more >>>addictive than crack cocaine and Wallmart sells it for $2 a can. Kids >>>these days have it all. When I was young, street drugs didn't even
    exist.

    Had to look up 'duster'
    https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/air-duster-abuse/air-duster-high/

    When I was young, say in the fifties, no drugs here either, was living in Amsterdam back then.
    In the seventies drugs were everywhere here, smoking with friends at night in my room playing records..,
    the smell got much in my clothes, so you got funny looks at work,
    One day I just quit drugs.
    There also was LSD and what not.
    Some people I knew ended in the hospital with overdoses..
    Some kicked off...

    Somehow drugs never got hold on me, always could rationalize what I experienced,
    was studying psychology books, designing stuff, work...
    then after the mid seventies travelled the world.... looking for 'truth', travelled all over the US too.
    Lived in a community for a while... lived in the wild... had my own company, worked
    in many different fields that used electronics... in a hospital too.
    Drugs are in a way an escape from your reality,, OTOH I have had cool experiences.
    Here, few month ago, waiting at the bus stop, kids smoking there, maybe 10 or 12 years old?


    We tend to see this as a recent phenomenon, but it really isn't. Go
    back to Ireland a hundred years ago and you'd see 7 year-old boys
    running around smoking tobacco in clay pipes and it was not regarded
    as the least bit unsual!

    Tobacco, yes, I did try that too at young age, but drugs?
    It reminded me of that song:
    Oh mother tell your children, not to do what I have done
    go to that house in New Orleans, they call the Rising Sun"
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-43lLKaqBQ

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clive Arthur@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Tue Oct 1 10:29:22 2024
    On 29/09/2024 10:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If
    they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Doesn't mean much as specified. Voltage with respect to what?

    --
    Cheers
    Clive

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 1 07:50:47 2024
    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin ><JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K. >>>>
    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should
    take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually
    are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN)
    you need to take into account the base current that will among other things >decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to clive@nowaytoday.co.uk on Tue Oct 1 09:54:12 2024
    On Tue, 1 Oct 2024 10:29:22 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 29/09/2024 10:10, Cursitor Doom wrote:

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job
    applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with
    10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If
    they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows
    not to hire them. :-)

    Doesn't mean much as specified. Voltage with respect to what?

    The planet that we all share. It should be obvious in the sketch that
    I draw.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to JL@gct.com on Wed Oct 2 06:02:09 2024
    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin >><JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too.

    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN)
    you need to take into account the base current that will among other things >>decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar:
    https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Clive Arthur@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Oct 2 16:45:37 2024
    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's
    job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter
    single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned
    out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job
    as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his
    new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company
    was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    [Among the other questions were to make an Xor using two-input Nands,
    show a methodology for calculating a square root where that function
    isn't available, and tell us at what temperature solder melts.]

    --
    Cheers
    Clive

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to clive@nowaytoday.co.uk on Wed Oct 2 18:06:46 2024
    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a
    miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's
    job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter
    single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned
    out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job
    as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his
    new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company
    was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    [Among the other questions were to make an Xor using two-input Nands,
    show a methodology for calculating a square root where that function
    isn't available, and tell us at what temperature solder melts.]

    You were lucky, then. Designers typically don't make good repair
    technicians and vice-versa. The two types think in fundamentally
    different ways.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 2 12:50:06 2024
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin ><JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin >>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>><JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>>full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>>>electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware. >>>>>>Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>>and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>>silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>>to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>>that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6 >>>>volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>>ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN)
    you need to take into account the base current that will among other things >>>decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.
    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar:
    https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Oct 2 20:29:23 2024
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>> volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic >>>>>>>> electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware.
    Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination...
    It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>> emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>>> silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>>> to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>>> that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>> take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6
    volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>> are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to
    ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN)
    you need to take into account the base current that will among other things
    decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar:
    https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.



    Nah, it’s all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Arie de Muijnck@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Wed Oct 2 22:43:02 2024
    On 2024-10-02 22:29, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin >>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>>> volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic
    electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware. >>>>>>>> Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination... >>>>>>>> It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>>> emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>>>> silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>>>> to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>>>> that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>>> take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6 >>>>>> volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>>> are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>>>> ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN)
    you need to take into account the base current that will among other things
    decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar:
    https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.



    Nah, it’s all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Most of it comes from (is processed by) Cacao de Zaan, a factory in the west of the Netherlands, below sea level.
    A very long time ago I supervised the design and commissioning of a laboratory data collection and automation system for them.
    After working there for a week I could not eat chocolate for some weeks, the intense smell was too much.

    Arie

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Wed Oct 2 14:04:02 2024
    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 20:29:23 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin >>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>>> volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic
    electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware. >>>>>>>> Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination... >>>>>>>> It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>>> emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>>>> silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>>>> to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>>>> that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>>> take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6 >>>>>> volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>>> are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>>>> ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN)
    you need to take into account the base current that will among other things
    decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar:
    https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.



    Nah, its all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    There's actually a ski resort in the Netherlands.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Wed Oct 2 23:22:51 2024
    On 10/2/24 22:29, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin >>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>>> volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic
    electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware. >>>>>>>> Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination... >>>>>>>> It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>>> emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>>>> silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>>>> to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>>>> that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>>> take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6 >>>>>> volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>>> are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>>>> ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN)
    you need to take into account the base current that will among other things
    decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar:
    https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.



    Nah, it’s all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    Yep, with mountain summits culminating at 40 cm above the local
    water level. The smell of cocoa permeates the whole area. I had
    an uncle working at Verkade.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Wed Oct 2 23:16:26 2024
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 10/2/24 22:29, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>: >>>>>>
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>>>> volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic
    electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware. >>>>>>>>> Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination... >>>>>>>>> It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>>>> emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>>>>> silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>>>>> to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>>>>> that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>>>> take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6 >>>>>>> volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>>>> are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>>>>> ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN) >>>>>> you need to take into account the base current that will among other things
    decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar:
    https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.



    Nah, it’s all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    Yep, with mountain summits culminating at 40 cm above the local
    water level. The smell of cocoa permeates the whole area. I had
    an uncle working at Verkade.

    Jeroen Belleman


    My grandfather spent a few years being closely concerned with small
    differences of elevation in Flanders.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to clive@nowaytoday.co.uk on Wed Oct 2 19:53:49 2024
    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a
    miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's
    job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter
    single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned
    out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job
    as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his
    new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company
    was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being
    replaced.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Wed Oct 2 20:01:39 2024
    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 23:16:26 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 10/2/24 22:29, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>>>>> volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic
    electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware. >>>>>>>>>> Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination... >>>>>>>>>> It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>>>>> emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>>>>>> silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>>>>>> to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>>>>>> that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>>>>> take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6 >>>>>>>> volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>>>>> are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>>>>>> ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN) >>>>>>> you need to take into account the base current that will among other things
    decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar: >>>>> https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.



    Nah, its all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    Yep, with mountain summits culminating at 40 cm above the local
    water level. The smell of cocoa permeates the whole area. I had
    an uncle working at Verkade.

    Jeroen Belleman


    My grandfather spent a few years being closely concerned with small >differences of elevation in Flanders.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Where I grew up, 318 Broadway Street in New Orleans, we looked UP at
    ships on the Mississippi river.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jl@glen--canyon.com on Thu Oct 3 06:06:11 2024
    On a sunny day (Wed, 02 Oct 2024 14:04:02 -0700) it happened john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <b8drfj96b04jtjfnie7tajkp4ppnl6kpbi@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 20:29:23 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>: >>>>>>
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>>>> volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic
    electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware. >>>>>>>>> Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination... >>>>>>>>> It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>>>> emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>>>>> silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>>>>> to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>>>>> that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>>>> take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6 >>>>>>> volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>>>> are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>>>>> ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN) >>>>>> you need to take into account the base current that will among other things
    decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar:
    https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.



    Nah, its all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    There's actually a ski resort in the Netherlands.

    Minimum temp says +1 degree C coming week,
    it is 1.4 C now in the north east,
    bit warmer near the sea where I am.
    Winter has not even started...

    Lowest I have ever experienced here was -40 C,
    but that was long ago before electric cars heated up stuff ;-)
    <ducks>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Oct 3 16:25:33 2024
    On 3/10/2024 12:53 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a
    miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's
    job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter
    single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned
    out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job
    as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his
    new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company
    was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing
    treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being
    replaced.

    There are more jobs for good digital circuit designers than for good
    analog circuit designers these days, so the next generation has a wider
    choice of jobs.

    Mixed signal people need to be both.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Thu Oct 3 16:21:43 2024
    On 3/10/2024 3:06 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a
    miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's
    job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter
    single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned
    out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job
    as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his
    new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company
    was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing
    treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    [Among the other questions were to make an Xor using two-input Nands,
    show a methodology for calculating a square root where that function
    isn't available, and tell us at what temperature solder melts.]

    You were lucky, then. Designers typically don't make good repair
    technicians and vice-versa. The two types think in fundamentally
    different ways.

    One has to wonder why Cursitor Doom thinks that he knows. He isn't
    either. Repair technicians typically have to work out why a device isn't working, which is a process of forming hypotheses and testing them.

    Designers tend to come up with hypotheses faster than repair
    technicians, so they don't test them as thoroughly, but they do tend to
    fix things faster.

    At Cambridge Instruments the design engineers frequently got called in
    when some expensive production machine wasn't meeting its performance
    tests, and we frequently did well. We cost twice as much per hour as the technicians, but a million dollar machine sitting on the production line
    didn't make any money at all until we could ship it out.

    Our chief engineer got shipped to America once to a machine that wasn't
    passing it's acceptance tests, and solve the problem instantly by
    recognising the ancient hydraulic lift that took him up to machine under
    test.

    It had an associated magnetic field due to the big lump of iron involved
    and our machine was sensitive enough to the local magnetic field that
    the lift going up and down messed it up.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From piglet@21:1/5 to Bill Sloman on Thu Oct 3 09:45:37 2024
    Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
    On 3/10/2024 3:06 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a >>>> miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's
    job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter
    single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned
    out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job
    as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his
    new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company >>> was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing
    treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    [Among the other questions were to make an Xor using two-input Nands,
    show a methodology for calculating a square root where that function
    isn't available, and tell us at what temperature solder melts.]

    You were lucky, then. Designers typically don't make good repair
    technicians and vice-versa. The two types think in fundamentally
    different ways.

    One has to wonder why Cursitor Doom thinks that he knows. He isn't
    either. Repair technicians typically have to work out why a device isn't working, which is a process of forming hypotheses and testing them.

    Designers tend to come up with hypotheses faster than repair
    technicians, so they don't test them as thoroughly, but they do tend to
    fix things faster.

    At Cambridge Instruments the design engineers frequently got called in
    when some expensive production machine wasn't meeting its performance
    tests, and we frequently did well. We cost twice as much per hour as the technicians, but a million dollar machine sitting on the production line didn't make any money at all until we could ship it out.

    Our chief engineer got shipped to America once to a machine that wasn't passing it's acceptance tests, and solve the problem instantly by
    recognising the ancient hydraulic lift that took him up to machine under test.

    It had an associated magnetic field due to the big lump of iron involved
    and our machine was sensitive enough to the local magnetic field that
    the lift going up and down messed it up.


    Yes, a repair technician has the great advantage knowing that the item at
    one point did work. Much more interesting/challenging is dealing with production line rejects - apart from the usual pcb hairlines, diodes wrong
    way, PNP for NPN etc my proudest moment was sleuthing a resistor network
    that was mislabelled at source, instead of having one common they were isolated, never used that vendor again and instigated goods inwards
    electrical test.


    --
    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sergey Kubushyn@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 27 00:08:10 2024
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    Just FYI -- everything after the ...818.html, starting with the question
    mark, is the tracking information that is not needed of useful. The URL is:

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    and it fits in one line.

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9uZXdzLmdvb2dsZS5jb20v&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAHVrnltb45pObHHLhZrXVxq25z20JeDU8JPg9gvlDBJhjeYEzdUd17bRg5BtdiEWogOTPdntQzANh0QgATtWDZyzRF29N5hQI-
    fpEzKWDdFKP00ngGxg35yKocz3STPk5gEgFEiIydE2c_w0GQYO362DBWRavsEPamcuQg_4Z-XU

    Oh. I just hired one.

    ---
    ******************************************************************
    * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
    * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 26 16:21:31 2024
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to ksi@koi8.net on Thu Sep 26 17:20:53 2024
    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 00:08:10 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    Just FYI -- everything after the ...818.html, starting with the question >mark, is the tracking information that is not needed of useful. The URL is:

    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    and it fits in one line.

    OK. Amazon links are like that... you can chop them off short.

    And Google is evil.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 26 19:01:01 2024
    On Thu, 26 Sep 2024 17:20:53 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 00:08:10 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:

    Just FYI -- everything after the ...818.html, starting with the question >>mark, is the tracking information that is not needed of useful. The URL is: >>
    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    and it fits in one line.

    OK. Amazon links are like that... you can chop them off short.

    I suggest "ClearURL" plugin for trimming off the tracking data from a
    URL:
    <https://docs.clearurls.xyz>
    For Thunderbird:
    <https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/clearurls/>
    For Chrome: <https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/clearurls/lckanjgmijmafbedllaakclkaicjfmnk>
    For Edge: <https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/clearurls/mdkdmaickkfdekbjdoojfalpbkgaddei>

    It's not the best, the fanciest or the most reliable, but it's been
    working well enough for about two years. The only problem is that
    some web piles require the presence of the appended tracking data for
    their web pages to function properly. Three mouse clicks to turn it
    off and three more to turn it back on later.

    And Google is evil.

    Maybe. Large and profitable companies tend to be labeled as evil.
    Since Google search makes the most money for Google, I would suspect
    that they are more than willing to compromise ethical behavior in
    exchange for increased profits:
    "Google Revenue Breakdown - How Does Google Make Money?" <https://www.doofinder.com/en/statistics/google-revenue-breakdown>
    $175 billion in revenue for Google search out of a total of $307
    billion revenue for the company.


    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jl@glen--canyon.com on Fri Sep 27 08:42:27 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:



    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff
    I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with, build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun. Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    And not everybody is 'made' for electronics...

    It is a way of thinking
    I was reading this just now:
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/09/these-3d-printed-pipes-inspired-by-shark-intestines-outperform-tesla-valves/
    can you do it in silly-con?
    Make a rectifier that way?
    ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Oct 3 23:20:42 2024
    On 30/09/2024 3:40 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 18:41:27 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <714jfj57e91sfrgeruv4prsqmujf3m04hs@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:04:57 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 17:41:36 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom >>> <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <2h0jfjhlq7ic02h5f72a3ibsksv5mkg6aj@4ax.com>: >>>
    On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:22:31 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:10:33 +0100) it happened Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com> wrote in <d56ifj1angpnq16qhhb0vplmlr3tt7opnf@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 27 Sep 2024 08:42:27 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 26 Sep 2024 16:21:31 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in <v1rbfj18eqbgr1t9bfvdfqqmn1q91gcfof@4ax.com>:



    https://finance.yahoo.com/news/bosses-firing-gen-z-grads-111719818.html

    Oh. I just hired one.

    There is a lot of truth in that article.
    I have had to work with newcomers, some knew nothing
    But then when I started... in my first job designing a.o. mil stuff >>>>>>> I had to figure it all out for myself the same day the requests got on the table.
    One old guy, who had some experience with electronics but had a lot with high power stuff..
    and a manager to rule us, was the environment, and a big factory floor building the things we came up with, and
    a test room (HV stuff 100 kV etc megawatt stuff.. and a little corner and oscilloscope for me to test what I came up with,
    build proto circuits.

    Later when starting in broadcasting we got 6 month in the school benches in their own studio, while getting payed,
    and exams after that, everything from audio, video, satellite, management, politics (who can do what, red phones sort of
    thing), the works.
    As that (video, audio etc) was my real interest, I found it relaxing and fun.
    Then when you are put in charge of a real event, I remember the first day I ran alone in a head control room
    I had to call my boss back from his dinner in some restaurant.. could not find the cables we had to swap
    to sync some remote location,
    turned out those were hidden under the floor boards ..
    Did not they tell you that?
    (Must have missed that :-) ).

    It all depends,.
    Do you give the poor new guy training? ANY kind of training?

    He doesn't have to. John has this screening technique he uses for job >>>>>> applicants. He shows them a diagram of two 1k resistors in series with >>>>>> 10V across them and asks them what the voltage where they join is. If >>>>>> they freak out, burst into tears or defenestrate themselves, he knows >>>>>> not to hire them. :-)

    Yes I did read that posting
    Its hard, lemme see, e=m.c^12 likely does not help.
    to make it easier for me I use volts, so if 3k3 + 4k7 in series gives 8 volts
    then we know 3k3 gives 3.3 V across it and 4k7 4.7 volts across it
    Best is to use trimpots to get the right value, no math needed...
    And of course you need to bring the (multi?)meter impedance into play, especially for high
    value resistors and moving coil meters from old boat anchors for example. >>>>> And there are LDRs and NTCs and PTCs, so we need to know all that
    and the temperature and light intensity...
    for the NTCs and PTCs we also need to know the current and time since switch on...
    So no wonder if they defenestrate themselves.
    An other issue maybe length contraction due to near light speed that may affect both measurement equipment and resistors.
    And reading those colored bands around some resistors to get the value. >>>>> and wirewound, carbon composite, metal,
    And then J.L. did not specify if it was DeeSee or AH!See
    Imagine 2 1k resistors, one wire-wound, the other metal flim,
    The wire-wound would work as inductor for RF, so would some small metal ones with some turns on it..
    And then there are tolerances, simple maybe for 2 resistors from the same batch
    but tolerances, sometimes a silver or gold band will give a clue
    will change the outcome.
    So as the saying goes: "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated" >>>>> Opps, composite carbon reisors maye aso be sensitve to moisture? And maybe pressue?
    Those would often go high in teefee sets...

    ...

    Jan, you're massively over-complicating this! :-) The resistors in my
    example are both 1k so it's half the supply rail. But you knew that
    anyway.
    The answers you gave show that you know your subject. Unfortunately,
    as we know from what John's stated here before, the graduates he
    interviews have no idea what the fuck they're doing. The Chinese are
    going to kick our arses if they aren't already.

    Oh - and carbon resistors are noisy. And I don't think you mentioned
    the source resistance of the supply. We could go on. And on. And
    on.... But that's not what John asked for. He only wanted a first
    approximation which would be 5 Volts. But that's too much for today's
    grads, it seems. :(

    Sure, but I find it hard to believe,
    we had a lab and were required to do measurements etc.. in my school days. >>> Not only electronics, some mechanics too.
    But indeed there is nothing like practical experience, in my school
    it was known that only hobbyists would psss the exams...

    Electronics is a huge field, on top of that now comes programming.. oh and now AI..
    And ever higher frequencies... ever more software (like peeseebee software for example)
    protocols, what not... standarss...

    And in spite of all that : US could do a moon return in the sixties, July 1969
    now they are stuck and need to be saved from the ISS..
    SpaceX just did sent up a rescue mission:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy89kz8ge41o

    US IQ is dropping, no empire lasted forever..
    that US war mongering war machine has no place in evolution, same for israhell,
    Religious brainwashed by theior leaders fanatics everywhere.

    Digital dooms day clocks very very precise... atomic

    You and I are old enough to remember back in the past when a situation
    such as that in Ukraine/Russia or Israel/Palestine/Lebanon where
    all-out war was a distinct likelihood, there would be any number of
    peace envoys getting stuck in and trying to defuse the situation
    before it escalated. Isn't it curious that we have no such initiatives
    going ahead today?

    What makes you think that? The middle east is certainly crawling with
    peace envoys. The Russia/Ukraine situation is different, in that Putin
    has been getting away with murder for so long that he imagines that he
    can get what he wants by pure persistence. Sanctions are slowing him
    down a bit, but not enough.

    I don't believe there's an innocent explanation for
    that. These conflicts are 100% engineered by the people Trump refers
    to as "The Swamp" and it's becoming ever more obvious that's the case
    for even the most obtuse among the bovine, cud-chewing rabble that
    form the bulk of the electorate in all democratic nations world-wide.

    It's not remotely obvious to anybody who doesn't have an obsession with
    grossly implausible conspiracy theories

    Darwin rules...!

    Evolution is all about the survival of the fittest. Psychopathic
    dictators kill off other people, so those genes don't get selected out
    all that effectively.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Oct 3 23:03:24 2024
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 19:53:49 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a
    miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's
    job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter >>single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned
    out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job
    as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his
    new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company >>was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >>treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being
    replaced.

    Maybe not yet, but pretty soon AI will do it better than humans.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 3 23:09:27 2024
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 14:04:02 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 20:29:23 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>: >>>>>>
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9 >>>>>>>>>> volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's >>>>>>>>>> full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic
    electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware. >>>>>>>>> Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination... >>>>>>>>> It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right >>>>>>>>>> and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>>>> emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's >>>>>>>> silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems >>>>>>>> to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get >>>>>>>> that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>>>> take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6 >>>>>>> volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>>>> are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>>>>> ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so)
    then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN) >>>>>> you need to take into account the base current that will among other things
    decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage...

    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar:
    https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.



    Nah, its all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    There's actually a ski resort in the Netherlands.

    Yeah, they probably made mountains out of all the submerged land they
    reclaimed from their North Sea coast. Never forget they'd invented
    windmills centuries before they ever caught-on elsewhere as a solution
    to green energy. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 3 15:11:43 2024
    On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 23:03:24 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 19:53:49 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a >>>> miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's >>>job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter >>>single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned >>>out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job
    as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his
    new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company >>>was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >>>treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being
    replaced.

    Maybe not yet, but pretty soon AI will do it better than humans.

    Don't see how a simple quesion has enough information to generate a
    complex design.

    https://www.flux.ai/

    Why do we have garbage like Windows and Outlook if AI is available?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Oct 3 23:13:28 2024
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 20:01:39 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 23:16:26 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 10/2/24 22:29, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>: >>>>>>
    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>>
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>>>>>
    I wouldn't hire someone who complicates a simple question into >>>>>>>>>>>> paralysis.


    I draw a 10 volt battery connected to two resistors, 9K in series with 1K.

    The problem there is 'draw', no reality.
    The battery will have an internal resistance, maybe discharged too. >>>>>>>>>>>
    What's the voltage across the 1K?



    I hired a 3-month intern a month ago who failed the test. He said 9
    volts. I hired him anyway and fired him as an intern on Friday. He's
    full time now. He's mostly a software engineer. I'm teaching him basic
    electronics now.

    Well, that is OK.
    But needs experimenting, building circuits, else all vaporware. >>>>>>>>>>> Same with software, write it, test it, else just imagination... >>>>>>>>>>> It may not be / work for everybody..
    Some run for US precedent..
    When I have to believe the crap trump puts out these days (about Iran for example)
    4 sure (or maybe even 00 sure <where 00 is the symbol for infinite> ) we will have
    WW3 no matter who is winning the electtions.


    I dream of some day finding a kid who gets the voltage divider right
    and has something intelligent so say about the next test, an NPN >>>>>>>>>>>> emitter follower.

    Ge or Si?

    John mentioned a Vb of 0.6V so the 'student' is expected to know it's
    silicon. And of course, it's a Vbe of 0.6V and that distinction seems
    to trip up a lot of young folks, it seems. The Vb is 5. Once they get
    that straight, the rest of it falls into place easily enough. Should >>>>>>>>>> take < 30s for someone to figure out - and hopefully <<!

    No, I said that one EE grad claimed that Vb (not Vbe) would be 0.6 >>>>>>>>> volts to ground.

    Can anyone here say about what the base and emitter voltages actually >>>>>>>>> are? Collector current?

    +10 supply, two 10Ks making a divider into the base, 1K emitter to >>>>>>>>> ground, typical small silicon NPN.

    Depends on the beta, if YOU assume beta is huge ( >=300 or so) >>>>>>>> then base will be at about 5 V, emitter at about 4.3 V
    current will then be 4.3 / 1000 or 4.3 mA
    (I always go for .7 V Vbe for some reason)

    Extra credit: anything else to say?

    For a lower beta (may be as low as 10 for for example a power NPN) >>>>>>>> you need to take into account the base current that will among other things
    decreae the base voltage followed by a lower emitter voltage... >>>>>>>>
    Are credits chocolate?

    Yes.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7pmkpe7468dgzaatxi50w/Eng_Choc.jpg?rlkey=nmefiui4eqbzfzvhjdhbxcqla&raw=1

    We have a direct account with Lundt.

    Amazing, I ordered some of these 2 weeks ago,
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/verkade-puur-intens-12x-111-gram/9300000158912440
    all gone now :-)
    So yesterday I went shopping, got new ones...
    When winter comes a hot chocolate drink is good too, add some sugar: >>>>>> https://www.ah.nl/producten/product/wi127402/blooker-cacaopoeder

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places >>>>> that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark >>>>> stuff is great.



    Nah, its all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    Yep, with mountain summits culminating at 40 cm above the local
    water level. The smell of cocoa permeates the whole area. I had
    an uncle working at Verkade.

    Jeroen Belleman


    My grandfather spent a few years being closely concerned with small >>differences of elevation in Flanders.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Where I grew up, 318 Broadway Street in New Orleans, we looked UP at
    ships on the Mississippi river.


    All very well til the levee breaks.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM3fodiK9rY

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Oct 3 20:20:21 2024
    "john larkin" <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in message news:rb5ufj1pc4uk139u9n0rljvrliqacpllq3@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 23:03:24 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 19:53:49 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a >>>>> miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or
    noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's >>>>job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter >>>>single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned >>>>out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job >>>>as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his >>>>new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company >>>>was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >>>>treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being
    replaced.

    Maybe not yet, but pretty soon AI will do it better than humans.

    Don't see how a simple quesion has enough information to generate a
    complex design.

    https://www.flux.ai/

    Why do we have garbage like Windows and Outlook if AI is available?

    Because garbage made money and closed source meant no-one else could laugh at the code.

    If Windows is ever rewritten by AI then it's likely to be in a way which does whatever is necessary to make more money.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Fri Oct 4 15:42:17 2024
    On 4/10/2024 8:03 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 19:53:49 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:

    <snip>

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being
    replaced.

    Maybe not yet, but pretty soon AI will do it better than humans.

    Probably not. It could explore a solution space more thoroughly than a
    human, but it isn't clear that it could chose a solution space worth
    exploring.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Fri Oct 4 15:53:40 2024
    On 4/10/2024 8:09 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 14:04:02 -0700, john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 20:29:23 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote:
    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 06:02:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Tue, 01 Oct 2024 07:50:47 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>> <JL@gct.com> wrote in <eu2ofjhoa2566a02apvlhjlvil4gaq0536@4ax.com>:

    On Tue, 01 Oct 2024 06:11:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Mon, 30 Sep 2024 08:24:38 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <7bglfjtll1os4g6pfqhf1i7jl0acmrvlqv@4ax.com>: >>>>>>>
    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:13:56 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On Mon, 30 Sep 2024 05:15:02 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 29 Sep 2024 10:36:26 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <JL@gct.com> wrote in <kb3jfjpejs47hqjd00fis20eog8de19ae8@4ax.com>:

    <snip>

    It makes no sense that europeans are a zillion miles from the places
    that grow chocolate, but make such good stuff. The Ritter Sport dark
    stuff is great.

    Nah, it’s all from the sun-drenched tropical mountains of Holland.

    There's actually a ski resort in the Netherlands.

    Yeah, they probably made mountains out of all the submerged land they reclaimed from their North Sea coast. Never forget they'd invented
    windmills centuries before they ever caught-on elsewhere as a solution
    to green energy. ;-)

    Windmills have been around for lot longer than the Netherlands.
    Wikipedia dates them back to 700 - 900 AD in Persia.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Fri Oct 4 18:13:55 2024
    On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 20:20:21 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    "john larkin" <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in message news:rb5ufj1pc4uk139u9n0rljvrliqacpllq3@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 23:03:24 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 19:53:49 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur >>>><clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a >>>>>> miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or >>>>>> noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's >>>>>job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter >>>>>single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned >>>>>out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job >>>>>as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his >>>>>new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company >>>>>was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >>>>>treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being >>>>replaced.

    Maybe not yet, but pretty soon AI will do it better than humans.

    Don't see how a simple quesion has enough information to generate a
    complex design.

    Take a modular approach until such time as the algos improve.

    https://www.flux.ai/

    Why do we have garbage like Windows and Outlook if AI is available?

    I haven't used either for very many years. Linux is *way* better in so
    many ways.

    Because garbage made money and closed source meant no-one else could laugh at the code.

    Ha! ha! Well said, Edward; spot on!

    If Windows is ever rewritten by AI then it's likely to be in a way which does whatever is necessary to make more money.

    We could get AI to come up with something a little better than just
    another version of Windows, I'd imagine. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Fri Oct 4 14:56:37 2024
    "Cursitor Doom" <cd@notformail.com> wrote in message news:2c80gjt42h2f04f40i1i3n05j2pe4c3jqa@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 20:20:21 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    "john larkin" <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in message news:rb5ufj1pc4uk139u9n0rljvrliqacpllq3@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 23:03:24 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 19:53:49 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur >>>>><clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a >>>>>>> miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or >>>>>>> noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's >>>>>>job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter >>>>>>single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned >>>>>>out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job >>>>>>as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his >>>>>>new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company >>>>>>was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >>>>>>treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being >>>>>replaced.

    Maybe not yet, but pretty soon AI will do it better than humans.

    Don't see how a simple quesion has enough information to generate a
    complex design.

    Take a modular approach until such time as the algos improve.

    https://www.flux.ai/

    Why do we have garbage like Windows and Outlook if AI is available?

    I haven't used either for very many years. Linux is *way* better in so
    many ways.

    Outlook was always garbage. I currently set up emclient for anyone who wants an installable client which can handle many different
    email addresses.
    A Linux version of emclient would be nice but not likely to happen.

    I use Windows 10 for daily work but Hyper-V has Windows xp and two debian servers.
    I don't use a Linux desktop, just putty for command line and winscp for file access.
    Just log in as root over SCP and use notepad++ to edit any file on the Linux system.
    I also have linux boxes running proxmox.


    Because garbage made money and closed source meant no-one else could laugh at the code.

    Ha! ha! Well said, Edward; spot on!

    If Windows is ever rewritten by AI then it's likely to be in a way which does whatever is necessary to make more money.

    We could get AI to come up with something a little better than just
    another version of Windows, I'd imagine. ;-)

    Depends on who trains it, and what they train it to do, and what they train it to be.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Sat Oct 5 00:01:44 2024
    On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 14:56:37 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "Cursitor Doom" <cd@notformail.com> wrote in message news:2c80gjt42h2f04f40i1i3n05j2pe4c3jqa@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 20:20:21 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    "john larkin" <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in message news:rb5ufj1pc4uk139u9n0rljvrliqacpllq3@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 23:03:24 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 19:53:49 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur >>>>>><clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other
    comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a >>>>>>>> miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or >>>>>>>> noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's >>>>>>>job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter >>>>>>>single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned >>>>>>>out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job >>>>>>>as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his >>>>>>>new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company >>>>>>>was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >>>>>>>treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being >>>>>>replaced.

    Maybe not yet, but pretty soon AI will do it better than humans.

    Don't see how a simple quesion has enough information to generate a
    complex design.

    Take a modular approach until such time as the algos improve.

    https://www.flux.ai/

    Why do we have garbage like Windows and Outlook if AI is available?

    I haven't used either for very many years. Linux is *way* better in so
    many ways.

    Outlook was always garbage. I currently set up emclient for anyone who wants an installable client which can handle many different
    email addresses.
    A Linux version of emclient would be nice but not likely to happen.

    I use Windows 10 for daily work but Hyper-V has Windows xp and two debian servers.
    I don't use a Linux desktop, just putty for command line and winscp for file access.
    Just log in as root over SCP and use notepad++ to edit any file on the Linux system.
    I also have linux boxes running proxmox.


    Because garbage made money and closed source meant no-one else could laugh at the code.

    Ha! ha! Well said, Edward; spot on!

    If Windows is ever rewritten by AI then it's likely to be in a way which does whatever is necessary to make more money.

    We could get AI to come up with something a little better than just
    another version of Windows, I'd imagine. ;-)

    Depends on who trains it, and what they train it to do, and what they train it to be.


    Well, so long as Bill Gates doesn't train it, it'll do just fine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Fri Oct 4 20:28:53 2024
    "Cursitor Doom" <cd@notformail.com> wrote in message news:lts0gjd4gsl84be5je9hcmen2dolt931fr@4ax.com...
    On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 14:56:37 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "Cursitor Doom" <cd@notformail.com> wrote in message news:2c80gjt42h2f04f40i1i3n05j2pe4c3jqa@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 20:20:21 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    "john larkin" <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in message news:rb5ufj1pc4uk139u9n0rljvrliqacpllq3@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 23:03:24 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 19:53:49 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote: >>>>>>
    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur >>>>>>><clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other >>>>>>>>> comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a
    miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or >>>>>>>>> noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's >>>>>>>>job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter >>>>>>>>single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned >>>>>>>>out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job >>>>>>>>as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his >>>>>>>>new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company
    was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >>>>>>>>treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being >>>>>>>replaced.

    Maybe not yet, but pretty soon AI will do it better than humans.

    Don't see how a simple quesion has enough information to generate a
    complex design.

    Take a modular approach until such time as the algos improve.

    https://www.flux.ai/

    Why do we have garbage like Windows and Outlook if AI is available?

    I haven't used either for very many years. Linux is *way* better in so
    many ways.

    Outlook was always garbage. I currently set up emclient for anyone who wants an installable client which can handle many different
    email addresses.
    A Linux version of emclient would be nice but not likely to happen.

    I use Windows 10 for daily work but Hyper-V has Windows xp and two debian servers.
    I don't use a Linux desktop, just putty for command line and winscp for file access.
    Just log in as root over SCP and use notepad++ to edit any file on the Linux system.
    I also have linux boxes running proxmox.


    Because garbage made money and closed source meant no-one else could laugh at the code.

    Ha! ha! Well said, Edward; spot on!

    If Windows is ever rewritten by AI then it's likely to be in a way which does whatever is necessary to make more money.

    We could get AI to come up with something a little better than just
    another version of Windows, I'd imagine. ;-)

    Depends on who trains it, and what they train it to do, and what they train it to be.


    Well, so long as Bill Gates doesn't train it, it'll do just fine.

    The BASIC interpreters were fine, but they were written in assembler and refined and refined for small memory footprint.
    This had the side effect of making them super efficient and about as bug free as you can get.
    They were also small enough that one person could understand all or nearly all of the code.

    Problems started when multiple people started writing DOS in c.
    Programmers were now shielded from what the processor was actually doing so issues such as unchecked buffer in just about everything
    arose.
    I've no idea whether Gates himself ever wrote anything in c but I suspect he did not.

    I wonder whether AI will eventually get smart enough to look at current code at assembler level and refine it in a similar way.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Sat Oct 5 19:22:42 2024
    On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 20:28:53 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "Cursitor Doom" <cd@notformail.com> wrote in message news:lts0gjd4gsl84be5je9hcmen2dolt931fr@4ax.com...
    On Fri, 4 Oct 2024 14:56:37 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "Cursitor Doom" <cd@notformail.com> wrote in message news:2c80gjt42h2f04f40i1i3n05j2pe4c3jqa@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 3 Oct 2024 20:20:21 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


    "john larkin" <jl@glen--canyon.com> wrote in message news:rb5ufj1pc4uk139u9n0rljvrliqacpllq3@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 03 Oct 2024 23:03:24 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Wed, 02 Oct 2024 19:53:49 -0700, john larkin <JL@gct.com> wrote: >>>>>>>
    On Wed, 2 Oct 2024 16:45:37 +0100, Clive Arthur >>>>>>>><clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 30/09/2024 19:11, john larkin wrote:
    <snip>

    If they get the DC part about right, I ask them for any other >>>>>>>>>> comments. All sorts of things could be mentioned.

    With the base looking at 5K, it's unlikley to oscillate. It would be a
    miracle if any kid even mentioned emitter follower oscillation. Or >>>>>>>>>> noise, or tempcos, or anything else.


    Along with a colleague, I interviewed someone for a repair technician's
    job a few years back. Among the questions was a simple common emitter >>>>>>>>>single transistor stage which we asked him to explain.

    He blew us away. He knew *far* more detail than either of us. Turned >>>>>>>>>out he was a shit-hot analog designer looking for a less stressful job >>>>>>>>>as he wound down to retirement. He turned out to be brilliant at his >>>>>>>>>new job, and mentored a lot of younger people. He left when the company
    was bought by a large US corporation with the concomitant mind-numbing >>>>>>>>>treacle-wading bullshit. [Me too!]

    I see the trend, good circuit designers retiring and not being >>>>>>>>replaced.

    Maybe not yet, but pretty soon AI will do it better than humans.

    Don't see how a simple quesion has enough information to generate a >>>>>> complex design.

    Take a modular approach until such time as the algos improve.

    https://www.flux.ai/

    Why do we have garbage like Windows and Outlook if AI is available?

    I haven't used either for very many years. Linux is *way* better in so >>>> many ways.

    Outlook was always garbage. I currently set up emclient for anyone who wants an installable client which can handle many different
    email addresses.
    A Linux version of emclient would be nice but not likely to happen.

    I use Windows 10 for daily work but Hyper-V has Windows xp and two debian servers.
    I don't use a Linux desktop, just putty for command line and winscp for file access.
    Just log in as root over SCP and use notepad++ to edit any file on the Linux system.
    I also have linux boxes running proxmox.


    Because garbage made money and closed source meant no-one else could laugh at the code.

    Ha! ha! Well said, Edward; spot on!

    If Windows is ever rewritten by AI then it's likely to be in a way which does whatever is necessary to make more money.

    We could get AI to come up with something a little better than just
    another version of Windows, I'd imagine. ;-)

    Depends on who trains it, and what they train it to do, and what they train it to be.


    Well, so long as Bill Gates doesn't train it, it'll do just fine.

    The BASIC interpreters were fine, but they were written in assembler and refined and refined for small memory footprint.
    This had the side effect of making them super efficient and about as bug free as you can get.
    They were also small enough that one person could understand all or nearly all of the code.

    Problems started when multiple people started writing DOS in c.
    Programmers were now shielded from what the processor was actually doing so issues such as unchecked buffer in just about everything
    arose.
    I've no idea whether Gates himself ever wrote anything in c but I suspect he did not.

    I wonder whether AI will eventually get smart enough to look at current code at assembler level and refine it in a similar way.

    Should be a given. Compilers have been optimising higher level
    languages for *years* and without the use of AI.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)