• Re: Instead scopes

    From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Martin Rid on Tue Aug 27 15:07:56 2024
    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> Wrote in message:r
    Anyone own the gds-1202b ?Any good?$350 at tequipmentCheers--
    ----Android NewsGr
    up Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

    Spell check error.

    Title should be: 'Instek scopes'



    I suspect that it was right the first time. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

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  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 27 10:40:15 2024
    Anyone own the gds-1202b ?

    Any good?

    $350 at tequipment

    Cheers
    --


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  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to Martin Rid on Tue Aug 27 10:48:49 2024
    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> Wrote in message:r
    Anyone own the gds-1202b ?Any good?$350 at tequipmentCheers-- ----Android NewsGroup Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

    Spell check error.

    Title should be: 'Instek scopes'


    --


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  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to martin_riddle@verison.net on Tue Aug 27 09:04:42 2024
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    Anyone own the gds-1202b ?

    Any good?

    $350 at tequipment

    Cheers

    I haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.

    I recently acquired a Siglent

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

    and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.

    It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to get
    you out of nightmare states.

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  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to martin_riddle@verison.net on Tue Aug 27 09:30:33 2024
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:48:49 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> Wrote in message:r
    Anyone own the gds-1202b ?Any good?$350 at tequipmentCheers-- ----Android NewsGroup Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

    Spell check error.

    Title should be: 'Instek scopes'

    Spelling is over-rated. People used to just spell things any way that
    sounded right.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin Rid@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 27 14:55:32 2024
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/
    product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers
    --


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  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to martin_riddle@verison.net on Tue Aug 27 19:23:33 2024
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/
    product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

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  • From Sergey Kubushyn@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 28 04:28:02 2024
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/
    gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    I don't have any relation to Rigol, just have DHO924S as a go-to scope on my bench and DHO814 for use as an advanced multimeter wherever I need a
    portable one. I like them and I can run them in a web browser if needed.

    I do have an advanced LeCroy WR640Zi with all options for serious jobs -- it
    is 40GS/s 4GHz bandwidth instrument with all features imaginable -- but I rarely power it up. It makes a noise like a jet at takeoff (Rigol DHO is
    very quite) and it is 8-bit so what you get on the screen looks ugly
    comparing with 12-bit DHO. DHO924 covers 99% of real world debugging so
    LeCroy is mostly gathering dust...

    BTW, DHO924S has built-in Arbitrary Function Generator with 25MHz max and it can make Bode plots using that AFG which is quite useful for SMPS debugging
    and loop response tuning. Sure, it is not the best AFG but totally adequate
    for most practical purposes.

    ---
    ******************************************************************
    * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
    * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************

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  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to ksi@koi8.net on Wed Aug 28 08:08:04 2024
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/
    gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope >for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has >all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that >feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.


    I don't have any relation to Rigol, just have DHO924S as a go-to scope on my >bench and DHO814 for use as an advanced multimeter wherever I need a
    portable one. I like them and I can run them in a web browser if needed.

    I bought the Siglent as a gift, and I was curious about it.


    I do have an advanced LeCroy WR640Zi with all options for serious jobs -- it >is 40GS/s 4GHz bandwidth instrument with all features imaginable -- but I >rarely power it up. It makes a noise like a jet at takeoff (Rigol DHO is
    very quite) and it is 8-bit so what you get on the screen looks ugly >comparing with 12-bit DHO. DHO924 covers 99% of real world debugging so >LeCroy is mostly gathering dust...

    So is ours! It cost $50K. It doesn't make much sense and there is
    basically no support. It doesn't make sense to them either.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Sergey Kubushyn@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 28 15:21:00 2024
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/
    gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope >>for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has >>all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that >>feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    I don't have any relation to Rigol, just have DHO924S as a go-to scope on my >>bench and DHO814 for use as an advanced multimeter wherever I need a >>portable one. I like them and I can run them in a web browser if needed.

    I bought the Siglent as a gift, and I was curious about it.


    I do have an advanced LeCroy WR640Zi with all options for serious jobs -- it >>is 40GS/s 4GHz bandwidth instrument with all features imaginable -- but I >>rarely power it up. It makes a noise like a jet at takeoff (Rigol DHO is >>very quite) and it is 8-bit so what you get on the screen looks ugly >>comparing with 12-bit DHO. DHO924 covers 99% of real world debugging so >>LeCroy is mostly gathering dust...

    So is ours! It cost $50K. It doesn't make much sense and there is
    basically no support. It doesn't make sense to them either.

    Yep, all those features are nice but very rarely needed in the real life.

    ---
    ******************************************************************
    * KSI@home KOI8 Net < > The impossible we do immediately. *
    * Las Vegas NV, USA < > Miracles require 24-hour notice. * ******************************************************************

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to ksi@koi8.net on Wed Aug 28 09:32:58 2024
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.amazon.
    com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope >>>for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has >>>all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that >>>feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Sergey Kubushyn on Wed Aug 28 17:41:33 2024
    Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin
    Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b
    Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We >>>>>> like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and
    gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has >>>>>> an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou
    out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope >>> for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has >>> all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>> from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    I don't have any relation to Rigol, just have DHO924S as a go-to scope on my
    bench and DHO814 for use as an advanced multimeter wherever I need a
    portable one. I like them and I can run them in a web browser if needed.

    I bought the Siglent as a gift, and I was curious about it.


    I do have an advanced LeCroy WR640Zi with all options for serious jobs -- it
    is 40GS/s 4GHz bandwidth instrument with all features imaginable -- but I >>> rarely power it up. It makes a noise like a jet at takeoff (Rigol DHO is >>> very quite) and it is 8-bit so what you get on the screen looks ugly
    comparing with 12-bit DHO. DHO924 covers 99% of real world debugging so
    LeCroy is mostly gathering dust...

    So is ours! It cost $50K. It doesn't make much sense and there is
    basically no support. It doesn't make sense to them either.

    Yep, all those features are nice but very rarely needed in the real life.

    Next to my bench, I have a couple of TDS 784As, a TDS 694C, an 11801C, and
    an 11802 that JL kindly donated when I went out on my own, lo these fifteen years ago. Also several SD-14s and SD-24s, plus at least one of all the
    other heads except the SD-32.

    I use them all regularly.

    My favorite is the 694C—3GHz, 10GSa/s simultaneously on all four channels. It’s 50 ohms only, but I also have the matching 4GHz FET probes.

    A 12-bit scope might be useful if the ENOB is anything like that, but I
    have doubts, especially in a 250 MHz bandwidth.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Wed Aug 28 13:05:35 2024
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 17:41:33 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin
    Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b
    Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We >>>>>>> like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and
    gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has >>>>>>> an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou >>>>>>> out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>> from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    I don't have any relation to Rigol, just have DHO924S as a go-to scope on my
    bench and DHO814 for use as an advanced multimeter wherever I need a
    portable one. I like them and I can run them in a web browser if needed. >>>
    I bought the Siglent as a gift, and I was curious about it.


    I do have an advanced LeCroy WR640Zi with all options for serious jobs -- it
    is 40GS/s 4GHz bandwidth instrument with all features imaginable -- but I >>>> rarely power it up. It makes a noise like a jet at takeoff (Rigol DHO is >>>> very quite) and it is 8-bit so what you get on the screen looks ugly
    comparing with 12-bit DHO. DHO924 covers 99% of real world debugging so >>>> LeCroy is mostly gathering dust...

    So is ours! It cost $50K. It doesn't make much sense and there is
    basically no support. It doesn't make sense to them either.

    Yep, all those features are nice but very rarely needed in the real life.

    Next to my bench, I have a couple of TDS 784As, a TDS 694C, an 11801C, and
    an 11802 that JL kindly donated when I went out on my own, lo these fifteen >years ago. Also several SD-14s and SD-24s, plus at least one of all the
    other heads except the SD-32.

    I use them all regularly.

    My favorite is the 694C3GHz, 10GSa/s simultaneously on all four channels. >Its 50 ohms only, but I also have the matching 4GHz FET probes.

    A 12-bit scope might be useful if the ENOB is anything like that, but I
    have doubts, especially in a 250 MHz bandwidth.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    The 3 GHz probe sampler, the SD14, is incredible. Its loading is close
    to zero and in most cases it doesn't even need a ground clip on the
    probe.

    I have a couple of the SD32 (50 GHz) heads, if you need to do
    something fast.

    And one each of the SD42 and SD43 optical-input heads.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 05:46:54 2024
    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope >>>>for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has >>>>all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Aug 29 20:23:19 2024
    On 29/08/2024 2:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.amazon.
    com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>> >from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    Or a least to be able to react to John Larkin's insultingly trivial
    questions in a way that leaves him thinking that.

    Maybe he didn't understand the answers.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 06:55:15 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin ><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350
    dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>>from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    How to type c++

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 07:16:58 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:15 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin >><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>>>from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be >>>completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    How to type c++

    One issue here is that it's cheaper and easier to teach coding, than
    it is to teach electronics.

    I walked through the Cornell EE school. I saw about 25 computer
    screens and one oscilloscope.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Aug 30 00:43:39 2024
    On 30/08/2024 12:16 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:15 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin >>> <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    How to type c++

    One issue here is that it's cheaper and easier to teach coding, than
    it is to teach electronics.

    I walked through the Cornell EE school. I saw about 25 computer
    screens and one oscilloscope.

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 08:49:13 2024
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 12:16 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:15 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :) >>>>>
    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>> the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    How to type c++

    One issue here is that it's cheaper and easier to teach coding, than
    it is to teach electronics.

    I walked through the Cornell EE school. I saw about 25 computer
    screens and one oscilloscope.

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    Except that many recent EE grads don't know how to run LT Spice.

    I guess you don't meet many young engineers any more. I do. If they
    are really smart, I can teach them the basics in about a year. I've
    got two cases in my new design center.

    Today's lecture will be about transmission lines, starting with the
    Pony Express and Morse and the first telegraphs, and the transatlantic
    fiasco and Heaviside.

    I'll show them an LT Spice transmission line example on our giant new
    OLED screen, and a real TDR on my 11802.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 16:06:11 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:15 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <8dv0djhj73b0ejudpkahnojgjk30i9rrbv@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin >><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one
    of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>>>from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be >>>completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    How to type c++

    C plush plush is a crime against humanity in my opinion
    C with linked list is all you need.

    But bit of asm is also a must, close to the hardware,
    to be able to use the on chip facilities the micros have.

    As to electrickety, I remember a lunch conversation between us technical people and one was talking about electrickety flowing from + towards -
    I aksked him how he though a radio tube worked...
    That guy was later sent far away to look after a small studio...
    He would not have coped in the media center were we were..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bill.sloman@ieee.org on Thu Aug 29 16:21:21 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.
    mamamatical bullshit much of the time
    That is why we are stuck with Albert onestone crap and wrong cosmological models
    that even a 10 year old can see are wrong.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 16:15:59 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 07:16:58 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <je01dj177m9p0q25en4k2jm8u0bsj07t2j@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:15 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin >>><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn >>>><ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b
    Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one
    of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>>>>from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have >>>>half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on >>>>transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be >>>>completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    How to type c++

    One issue here is that it's cheaper and easier to teach coding, than
    it is to teach electronics.

    I walked through the Cornell EE school. I saw about 25 computer
    screens and one oscilloscope.

    In the school where I was we had plenty of scopes and stuff.
    Some teachers were very old, from before the transistor age...
    The concensus was that 'only true hobbyists make it'
    I think we started with 2 classes of 30, we had 6 at the final exams that had passed at the party
    I did 2 exams at the same time, one from te gov and one from the school.
    I remember one question 'draw a PCB for this transistor circuit'
    does that still happen?
    I thought it was fun:-)
    Computers? There were none..
    Calculators yes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 11:47:42 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman ><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested. >>
    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither
    accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers
    have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to
    train your instincts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 11:50:33 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:15:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 07:16:58 -0700) it happened john larkin ><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <je01dj177m9p0q25en4k2jm8u0bsj07t2j@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:15 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn >>>>><ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b
    Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one
    of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :) >>>>>
    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have >>>>>half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>>the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on >>>>>transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be >>>>>completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    How to type c++

    One issue here is that it's cheaper and easier to teach coding, than
    it is to teach electronics.

    I walked through the Cornell EE school. I saw about 25 computer
    screens and one oscilloscope.

    In the school where I was we had plenty of scopes and stuff.
    Some teachers were very old, from before the transistor age...
    The concensus was that 'only true hobbyists make it'
    I think we started with 2 classes of 30, we had 6 at the final exams that had passed at the party
    I did 2 exams at the same time, one from te gov and one from the school.
    I remember one question 'draw a PCB for this transistor circuit'
    does that still happen?
    I thought it was fun:-)
    Computers? There were none..
    Calculators yes.


    We weren't alowed to use a calculator on exams because it would give
    an unfair advantage to the students that could afford one.

    My HP35 cost $400, a bit more than my Honda S90 motorcycle.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 11:52:11 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:06:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:15 -0700) it happened john larkin ><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <8dv0djhj73b0ejudpkahnojgjk30i9rrbv@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin >>><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn >>>><ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one
    of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>>>>from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have >>>>half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on >>>>transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be >>>>completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    How to type c++

    C plush plush is a crime against humanity in my opinion
    C with linked list is all you need.

    But bit of asm is also a must, close to the hardware,
    to be able to use the on chip facilities the micros have.

    As to electrickety, I remember a lunch conversation between us technical people
    and one was talking about electrickety flowing from + towards -
    I aksked him how he though a radio tube worked...
    That guy was later sent far away to look after a small studio...
    He would not have coped in the media center were we were..

    Electricity does flow from + to -.

    People who are taught otherwise are damaged for life.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 29 11:59:55 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:23:19 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 29/08/2024 2:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.amazon.
    com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>> >from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    Or a least to be able to react to John Larkin's insultingly trivial
    questions in a way that leaves him thinking that.

    Maybe he didn't understand the answers.

    You're impossible to talk too. Your only motivation is to insult.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to wmartin on Thu Aug 29 19:42:30 2024
    wmartin <wwm@wwmartin.net> wrote:
    On 8/27/24 08:07, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> Wrote in message:r
    Anyone own the gds-1202b ?Any good?$350 at tequipmentCheers--
    ----Android NewsGr
    up Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html >>>
    Spell check error.

    Title should be: 'Instek scopes'



    I suspect that it was right the first time. ;)



    Hmm, how much did you get paid for that ringing endorsement? :-)

    Three bags of Scopie Treats. Mmm—mmmm. ;)

    I’m not at all against cheap scopes with fancy specs. For most of my
    stuff, I need something faster than 1GSa/s, but a 12 bit digitizer could certainly come in handy.

    Thing is, if I have to average 16 or more traces to get the noise floor
    down far enough for that resolution to be meaningful, I really haven’t
    gained that much.

    By Widrow’s theorem, if there’s at least an LSB or two worth of real noise, quantization noise averages out the same as any other sort.

    So the ENOB spec is key.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From wmartin@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Thu Aug 29 12:24:19 2024
    On 8/27/24 08:07, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:
    Martin Rid <martin_riddle@verison.net> Wrote in message:r
    Anyone own the gds-1202b ?Any good?$350 at tequipmentCheers--
    ----Android NewsGr
    up Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html >>
    Spell check error.

    Title should be: 'Instek scopes'



    I suspect that it was right the first time. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Hmm, how much did you get paid for that ringing endorsement? :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Aug 29 21:50:19 2024
    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:15:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:
    [...]
    Calculators yes.

    We weren't alowed to use a calculator on exams because it would give
    an unfair advantage to the students that could afford one.

    We were allowed mechanical calculators (Facits etc.) but there were only
    enough for half the candidates. Half of us were locked in a room with a
    spare envigilator acting as a guard while the other half sat the exam
    then we swapped places and the ones who had taken the exam were locked
    in while the second group sat the exam.

    Electronic calculators did not exist, but we did learn to program an
    analogue computer where 100v = 1 Machine Unit.

    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Thu Aug 29 16:44:10 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 19:15:29 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:


    On 2024-08-28 16:05, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 17:41:33 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin
    Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b >>>>>>>>> ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We >>>>>>>>> like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and
    gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has >>>>>>>>> an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou >>>>>>>>> out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>>> from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    I don't have any relation to Rigol, just have DHO924S as a go-to scope on my
    bench and DHO814 for use as an advanced multimeter wherever I need a >>>>>> portable one. I like them and I can run them in a web browser if needed. >>>>>
    I bought the Siglent as a gift, and I was curious about it.


    I do have an advanced LeCroy WR640Zi with all options for serious jobs -- it
    is 40GS/s 4GHz bandwidth instrument with all features imaginable -- but I
    rarely power it up. It makes a noise like a jet at takeoff (Rigol DHO is >>>>>> very quite) and it is 8-bit so what you get on the screen looks ugly >>>>>> comparing with 12-bit DHO. DHO924 covers 99% of real world debugging so >>>>>> LeCroy is mostly gathering dust...

    So is ours! It cost $50K. It doesn't make much sense and there is
    basically no support. It doesn't make sense to them either.

    Yep, all those features are nice but very rarely needed in the real life. >>>
    Next to my bench, I have a couple of TDS 784As, a TDS 694C, an 11801C, and >>> an 11802 that JL kindly donated when I went out on my own, lo these fifteen >>> years ago. Also several SD-14s and SD-24s, plus at least one of all the
    other heads except the SD-32.

    I use them all regularly.

    My favorite is the 694C3GHz, 10GSa/s simultaneously on all four channels. >>> Its 50 ohms only, but I also have the matching 4GHz FET probes.

    A 12-bit scope might be useful if the ENOB is anything like that, but I
    have doubts, especially in a 250 MHz bandwidth.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    The 3 GHz probe sampler, the SD14, is incredible. Its loading is close
    to zero and in most cases it doesn't even need a ground clip on the
    probe.

    I have a couple of the SD32 (50 GHz) heads, if you need to do
    something fast.

    And one each of the SD42 and SD43 optical-input heads.

    Yeah, I have one each of the 20 GHz SD-48 and SD-46, and two of the
    slower (6 GHz) SD-42s. They're great except that they're blind north of
    900 nm.

    I also have an SD-51 trigger head, which is a tunnel diode gizmo that >improves the high-speed triggering, and an SD-20 loop-through head,
    which lets you sample the input signal to some gizmo as well as its output.

    The 2-meter extender cables are super useful because you can bring the >sampler to the gizmo rather than the other way round.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    The extender cables cost more than the heads nowadays.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Aug 29 19:15:29 2024
    On 2024-08-28 16:05, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 17:41:33 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Sergey Kubushyn <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin
    Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b >>>>>>>> ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We >>>>>>>> like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and
    gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has >>>>>>>> an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou >>>>>>>> out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>> from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    I don't have any relation to Rigol, just have DHO924S as a go-to scope on my
    bench and DHO814 for use as an advanced multimeter wherever I need a >>>>> portable one. I like them and I can run them in a web browser if needed. >>>>
    I bought the Siglent as a gift, and I was curious about it.


    I do have an advanced LeCroy WR640Zi with all options for serious jobs -- it
    is 40GS/s 4GHz bandwidth instrument with all features imaginable -- but I >>>>> rarely power it up. It makes a noise like a jet at takeoff (Rigol DHO is >>>>> very quite) and it is 8-bit so what you get on the screen looks ugly >>>>> comparing with 12-bit DHO. DHO924 covers 99% of real world debugging so >>>>> LeCroy is mostly gathering dust...

    So is ours! It cost $50K. It doesn't make much sense and there is
    basically no support. It doesn't make sense to them either.

    Yep, all those features are nice but very rarely needed in the real life. >>
    Next to my bench, I have a couple of TDS 784As, a TDS 694C, an 11801C, and >> an 11802 that JL kindly donated when I went out on my own, lo these fifteen >> years ago. Also several SD-14s and SD-24s, plus at least one of all the
    other heads except the SD-32.

    I use them all regularly.

    My favorite is the 694C—3GHz, 10GSa/s simultaneously on all four channels. >> It’s 50 ohms only, but I also have the matching 4GHz FET probes.

    A 12-bit scope might be useful if the ENOB is anything like that, but I
    have doubts, especially in a 250 MHz bandwidth.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    The 3 GHz probe sampler, the SD14, is incredible. Its loading is close
    to zero and in most cases it doesn't even need a ground clip on the
    probe.

    I have a couple of the SD32 (50 GHz) heads, if you need to do
    something fast.

    And one each of the SD42 and SD43 optical-input heads.

    Yeah, I have one each of the 20 GHz SD-48 and SD-46, and two of the
    slower (6 GHz) SD-42s. They're great except that they're blind north of
    900 nm.

    I also have an SD-51 trigger head, which is a tunnel diode gizmo that
    improves the high-speed triggering, and an SD-20 loop-through head,
    which lets you sample the input signal to some gizmo as well as its output.

    The 2-meter extender cables are super useful because you can bring the
    sampler to the gizmo rather than the other way round.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Aug 30 14:10:11 2024
    On 30/08/2024 1:49 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 12:16 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 06:55:15 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 05:46:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Wed, 28 Aug 2024 09:32:58 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>> <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mtjucjdqe2f91c2jsjp6011k0uvakuimog@4ax.com>:

    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any
    good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a
    Siglenthttps://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he
    likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :) >>>>>>
    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have >>>>>> half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>>> the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    oops!

    Then what DO they know?

    How to type c++

    One issue here is that it's cheaper and easier to teach coding, than
    it is to teach electronics.

    I walked through the Cornell EE school. I saw about 25 computer
    screens and one oscilloscope.

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested. >>
    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    Except that many recent EE grads don't know how to run LTSpice.

    They were trained on some other version of Spice? Or some other
    simulation program?

    I guess you don't meet many young engineers any more.

    I'm treasurer of the NSW branch of the IEEE. I get to met a few from
    time to time. One had just finished a Ph.D. on a flexible implantable
    liquid crystal electrode for nerve cells (which you interrograted with a laser). I passed on one her papers to Australia's then chief scientist
    (whom I happened to know) who made his money out of measuring nerve cell potentials exactly. He liked the paper, but said it was thirty years too
    late for him.


    I do. If they are really smart, I can teach them the basics in about a year.

    Or your version of the basics, which seems to be odd enough that they
    might take a year to find out what kind of responses you expect to get.


    I've got two cases in my new design center.

    They've got my sympathy.

    Today's lecture will be about transmission lines, starting with the
    Pony Express and Morse and the first telegraphs, and the transatlantic
    fiasco and Heaviside.

    Heaviside is where it starts to get interesting. William Thompson -
    later Lord Kelvin - was directly involved with the early transatlantic telegraph links. Heaviside came later.

    I'll show them an LT Spice transmission line example on our giant new
    OLED screen, and a real TDR on my 11802.

    What are you doing about the math? - not that I ever needed to get into
    that though it did prompt me to go for calculators that could handle
    hyperbolic trigometrical functions.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Aug 30 14:17:14 2024
    On 30/08/2024 4:59 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:23:19 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 29/08/2024 2:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.amazon.
    com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work >>>>> >from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz
    DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    Or a least to be able to react to John Larkin's insultingly trivial
    questions in a way that leaves him thinking that.

    Maybe he didn't understand the answers.

    You're impossible to talk too. Your only motivation is to insult.

    If your idea of a conversation is one where you get flattered nonstop,
    I'm not the ideal conversational partner.

    Most people have lower expectations when it comes to uncritical
    flattery, and some of them can even earn just approbation.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jl@650pot.com on Fri Aug 30 06:47:54 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested. >>>
    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither
    accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers
    have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to
    train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you
    You will still need real testing.
    Maybe boeing just spiced their thrusters :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 30 07:13:23 2024
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:47:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin ><jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither
    accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers
    have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to
    train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you
    You will still need real testing.

    Sure, but if I wake up at 3AM in Truckee, I can Spice an idea and go
    back to bed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6TrbD7-IwU&list=PLlD2eDv5CIe9u7jbKUkZ5xrLLSCrn0z_e

    Actually, I have designed useful circuits by randomly fiddling with
    Spice, stupid topologies that turn out to work.


    Maybe boeing just spiced their thrusters :-)

    SpaceX is having trouble with helium leaks too. Helium is the chemical equivalent of slippery eels. It will leak though almost anything, even
    solid metals. If they need an inert gas, why don't they use argon or
    neon or nitrogen?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 30 08:29:20 2024
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 07:13:23 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:47:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin >><jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>>is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither >>>accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers >>>have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to >>>train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you
    You will still need real testing.

    Sure, but if I wake up at 3AM in Truckee, I can Spice an idea and go
    back to bed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6TrbD7-IwU&list=PLlD2eDv5CIe9u7jbKUkZ5xrLLSCrn0z_e

    Actually, I have designed useful circuits by randomly fiddling with
    Spice, stupid topologies that turn out to work.


    Maybe boeing just spiced their thrusters :-)

    SpaceX is having trouble with helium leaks too. Helium is the chemical >equivalent of slippery eels. It will leak though almost anything, even
    solid metals. If they need an inert gas, why don't they use argon or
    neon or nitrogen?

    https://nypost.com/2024/08/30/us-news/boeing-execs-fought-nasa-to-bring-home-stranded-astronauts-in-starliner-sources/

    This is a reversal from the Challenger disaster. NASA is being careful
    this time, and the contractor is not.

    Musk is cool. He annoys a lot of fatheads.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Aug 31 01:39:37 2024
    On 31/08/2024 12:13 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:47:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin
    <jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither
    accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers
    have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to
    train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you
    You will still need real testing.

    Sure, but if I wake up at 3AM in Truckee, I can Spice an idea and go
    back to bed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6TrbD7-IwU&list=PLlD2eDv5CIe9u7jbKUkZ5xrLLSCrn0z_e

    Actually, I have designed useful circuits by randomly fiddling with
    Spice, stupid topologies that turn out to work.

    What a creationist would call intelligent design. The rest of us call it evolving your circuits, rather than designing them, and you have
    described that as insanely inefficient.

    Maybe boeing just spiced their thrusters :-)

    SpaceX is having trouble with helium leaks too. Helium is the chemical equivalent of slippery eels. It will leak though almost anything, even
    solid metals. If they need an inert gas, why don't they use argon or
    neon or nitrogen?

    Argon and neon aren't all that inert, nitrogen even less so. For
    thrusters, helium's low molecular weight is a real advantage. Hydrogen
    would be about the same, but it is anything but inert, and leaks almost
    as fast a helium, and atomic hydrogen can produce hydrogen embrittlement.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 30 10:14:46 2024
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:17:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 4:59 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:23:19 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 29/08/2024 2:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.
    amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :)

    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but
    the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    Or a least to be able to react to John Larkin's insultingly trivial
    questions in a way that leaves him thinking that.

    Maybe he didn't understand the answers.

    You're impossible to talk too. Your only motivation is to insult.

    If your idea of a conversation is one where you get flattered nonstop,
    I'm not the ideal conversational partner.


    My idea of good conversation is a group of people playing with ideas
    and inventing stuff together. "Egoless" is the word, as in "egoless programming."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoless_programming

    I don't think you can do that. Some people are too fragile.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 30 10:18:52 2024
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 01:39:37 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 12:13 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:47:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin >>> <jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither
    accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers >>>> have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to
    train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you
    You will still need real testing.

    Sure, but if I wake up at 3AM in Truckee, I can Spice an idea and go
    back to bed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6TrbD7-IwU&list=PLlD2eDv5CIe9u7jbKUkZ5xrLLSCrn0z_e

    Actually, I have designed useful circuits by randomly fiddling with
    Spice, stupid topologies that turn out to work.

    What a creationist would call intelligent design. The rest of us call it >evolving your circuits, rather than designing them, and you have
    described that as insanely inefficient.

    It's not inefficient if it's done insanely fast, in parallel,
    preferably asleep.

    It doesn't matter how you describe the process. It works better if you
    don't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 30 18:22:20 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 07:13:23 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <1ak3dj9pbeivllh8jk5ke2ani3jid2hl3p@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:47:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin >><jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>><bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>>is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither >>>accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers >>>have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to >>>train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you
    You will still need real testing.

    Sure, but if I wake up at 3AM in Truckee, I can Spice an idea and go
    back to bed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6TrbD7-IwU&list=PLlD2eDv5CIe9u7jbKUkZ5xrLLSCrn0z_e

    Nice hat!

    Not much news there now is it?


    Actually, I have designed useful circuits by randomly fiddling with
    Spice, stupid topologies that turn out to work.

    I have used spice a couple of times, mostly out of curiosity.
    Last one was in Linux Wine (windows emulator).
    There were some problems with those simulations... they were not reality (scoped the stuff)
    But maybe it is hard to match so many years of human experience
    Having better models of parts is an other requirement.
    It _is_ all math and math is by definion a limited descriptopn of reality, VERY limited
    reality equations represent...
    Insight is what counts.


    Maybe boeing just spiced their thrusters :-)

    SpaceX is having trouble with helium leaks too. Helium is the chemical >equivalent of slippery eels. It will leak though almost anything, even
    solid metals. If they need an inert gas, why don't they use argon or
    neon or nitrogen?

    Yep, I wondered the same thing

    Maybe AI will learn.... and be the next thing after spice.
    There is an AI test at tomshardware.com,
    I asked it the question "how to speed up my Raspberry"

    https://www.tomshardware.com/news/tomshardware-ai-chatbot#main

    The answer was:

    -----------
    HammerBot:

    To make a Raspberry Pi 4 faster, you can overclock it. Here's a step-by-step guide on how to overclock your Raspberry Pi 4 to 2.3 GHz:

    Ensure Adequate Cooling: Before starting the overclock process, make sure your Raspberry Pi 4 has adequate cooling. Options include:
    Pimoroni Fan Shim
    52Pi Ice Tower Cooler

    Edit the config.txt File:
    Open the config.txt file for editing in a terminal window on your Pi:

    sudo nano /boot/config.txt

    Add the following lines to set the CPU and GPU speeds, and provide extra voltage:

    # Overclock Instructions
    arm_freq=2300
    gpu_freq=500
    over_voltage=14
    force_turbo=1

    Save and Exit:
    Press CTRL + X, then Y, and hit Enter to save and exit the file.

    Reboot the Raspberry Pi:
    Reboot your Raspberry Pi to apply the changes:

    sudo reboot

    Verify the Overclock:
    After rebooting, open a terminal and use the vcgencmd command to show the current ARM CPU speed:

    vcgencmd measure_clock arm

    For more detailed instructions and considerations, you can refer to the full guide on Tom's Hardware.

    Keep in mind that overclocking can invalidate your warranty and may cause instability if not done properly. Ensure you have sufficient cooling to prevent thermal throttling.
    ------------


    Now serching with google works too and I am sure hammerbot uses it,
    but still that saved time (if you woke up at 3 AM and wondered...).
    Was just a test (not going to try it) but imagine the same for design.

    ?
    Where will it go?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Aug 31 15:40:53 2024
    On 31/08/2024 3:18 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 01:39:37 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 12:13 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:47:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>> <jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>: >>>>
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither
    accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers >>>>> have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to >>>>> train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you
    You will still need real testing.

    Sure, but if I wake up at 3AM in Truckee, I can Spice an idea and go
    back to bed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6TrbD7-IwU&list=PLlD2eDv5CIe9u7jbKUkZ5xrLLSCrn0z_e

    Actually, I have designed useful circuits by randomly fiddling with
    Spice, stupid topologies that turn out to work.

    What a creationist would call intelligent design. The rest of us call it
    evolving your circuits, rather than designing them, and you have
    described that as insanely inefficient.

    It's not inefficient if it's done insanely fast, in parallel,
    preferably asleep.

    Efficiency is the ratio of how long something actually takes compared
    with the time taken by some sort of ideal process. We don't know what
    the ideal process might look like, and have no idea how long it would
    take, so talking about the "efficiency" of the process is mere
    illiterate bullshit.

    You brain isn't wildly different from any other human brain and isn't
    going to do anything insanely fast, even when you are asleep.

    It doesn't matter how you describe the process. It works better if you
    don't.

    What makes you think that? I suspect the claim reflects the fact that
    you aren't good at explaining things and want an excuse to avoid trying
    to do so.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Aug 31 16:08:05 2024
    On 31/08/2024 1:29 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 07:13:23 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:47:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin >>> <jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither
    accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers >>>> have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to
    train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you
    You will still need real testing.

    Sure, but if I wake up at 3AM in Truckee, I can Spice an idea and go
    back to bed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6TrbD7-IwU&list=PLlD2eDv5CIe9u7jbKUkZ5xrLLSCrn0z_e

    Actually, I have designed useful circuits by randomly fiddling with
    Spice, stupid topologies that turn out to work.


    Maybe boeing just spiced their thrusters :-)

    SpaceX is having trouble with helium leaks too. Helium is the chemical
    equivalent of slippery eels. It will leak though almost anything, even
    solid metals. If they need an inert gas, why don't they use argon or
    neon or nitrogen?

    https://nypost.com/2024/08/30/us-news/boeing-execs-fought-nasa-to-bring-home-stranded-astronauts-in-starliner-sources/

    This is a reversal from the Challenger disaster. NASA is being careful
    this time, and the contractor is not.

    Musk is cool. He annoys a lot of fatheads.

    If paying way too much for Twitter and halving its value after getting
    control of it is actually cool, you may be right. More rational
    observers see that as evidence that Musk is an ego-driven fathead.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Aug 31 16:03:39 2024
    On 31/08/2024 3:14 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:17:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 4:59 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:23:19 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 29/08/2024 2:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.
    amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :) >>>>>
    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have
    half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>> the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    Or a least to be able to react to John Larkin's insultingly trivial
    questions in a way that leaves him thinking that.

    Maybe he didn't understand the answers.

    You're impossible to talk too. Your only motivation is to insult.

    If your idea of a conversation is one where you get flattered nonstop,
    I'm not the ideal conversational partner.


    My idea of good conversation is a group of people playing with ideas
    and inventing stuff together. "Egoless" is the word, as in "egoless programming."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoless_programming

    I don't think you can do that. Some people are too fragile.

    Your opinion is noted. I doubt if the people with whom I have
    collaborated would agree.

    Sloman A.W., Buggs P., Molloy J., and Stewart D. “A
    microcontroller-based driver to stabilise the temperature of an optical
    stage to 1mK in the range 4C to 38C, using a Peltier heat pump and a
    thermistor sensor” Measurement Science and Technology, 7 1653-64 (1996)

    Jim Molloy has died, but Paul Buggs and Doug Stewart are still around.
    You could ask them.

    http://sophia-elektronica.com/At_Cambridge.html

    presents three years of my weekly reports when I was acting as a senior electronic engineer in the advanced electron beam tester project - they eventually went to everybody working on the team, though they were
    directed to the project manager. This was a bit odd, but my ego didn't
    have anything to do with it.

    I knew some ego-driven engineers who tried to patent every bright idea
    that they though that they had had. I've only got three patents and one
    of them had struck me as obvious, so I hadn't thought to patent it until
    I'd had to explain it to enough people to let me realise that it wasn't
    all that obvious.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 31 07:38:28 2024
    ?
    Where will it go?

    PS
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/embedded/machine-learning/article/55135389/electronic-design-tiny-ai-on-the-edge-ai-edas-transforming-the-future-of-design
    https://www.electronicdesign.com/magazine/50472
    lots to read....
    and try I suppose.
    Then all from a central censored server?
    AI to refuse - or mess up your latest mil design?
    ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 31 07:03:51 2024
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 16:03:39 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 3:14 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:17:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 4:59 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:23:19 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>> wrote:

    On 29/08/2024 2:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.
    amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :) >>>>>>
    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have >>>>>> half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>>> the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    Or a least to be able to react to John Larkin's insultingly trivial
    questions in a way that leaves him thinking that.

    Maybe he didn't understand the answers.

    You're impossible to talk too. Your only motivation is to insult.

    If your idea of a conversation is one where you get flattered nonstop,
    I'm not the ideal conversational partner.


    My idea of good conversation is a group of people playing with ideas
    and inventing stuff together. "Egoless" is the word, as in "egoless
    programming."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoless_programming

    I don't think you can do that. Some people are too fragile.

    Your opinion is noted. I doubt if the people with whom I have
    collaborated would agree.

    Sloman A.W., Buggs P., Molloy J., and Stewart D. A
    microcontroller-based driver to stabilise the temperature of an optical
    stage to 1mK in the range 4C to 38C, using a Peltier heat pump and a >thermistor sensor Measurement Science and Technology, 7 1653-64 (1996)

    You did one academic, unremarkable temperature controller, published
    in a journal, and have cited it here maybe 50 times now. Do something
    new.

    Here's my millikelven temperature controller.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/emxfaurnyj35t0y84tvwl/Oven_Cables_pub.jpg?rlkey=jpcnmnt1pcooz9nj7d0j4rah0&raw=1

    That's a dual-stage Mach-Zender e/o modulartor whose extinction is
    much better if the temperature is stable to milllikelvins. The big hogged-aluminum box is heated by six mosfets on the bottom, and there
    are four thermistors for feedback. It runs at 30C.

    This is part of the modulation system for a big laser.

    I really over-did it on the enclosure. It's a lot heavier than it
    really needed to be.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 31 06:53:28 2024
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 15:40:53 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 3:18 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 01:39:37 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 12:13 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:47:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>> <jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>: >>>>>
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither
    accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers >>>>>> have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to >>>>>> train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you >>>>> You will still need real testing.

    Sure, but if I wake up at 3AM in Truckee, I can Spice an idea and go
    back to bed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6TrbD7-IwU&list=PLlD2eDv5CIe9u7jbKUkZ5xrLLSCrn0z_e

    Actually, I have designed useful circuits by randomly fiddling with
    Spice, stupid topologies that turn out to work.

    What a creationist would call intelligent design. The rest of us call it >>> evolving your circuits, rather than designing them, and you have
    described that as insanely inefficient.

    It's not inefficient if it's done insanely fast, in parallel,
    preferably asleep.

    Efficiency is the ratio of how long something actually takes compared
    with the time taken by some sort of ideal process. We don't know what
    the ideal process might look like, and have no idea how long it would
    take, so talking about the "efficiency" of the process is mere
    illiterate bullshit.

    You brain isn't wildly different from any other human brain and isn't
    going to do anything insanely fast, even when you are asleep.

    It doesn't matter how you describe the process. It works better if you
    don't.

    What makes you think that? I suspect the claim reflects the fact that
    you aren't good at explaining things and want an excuse to avoid trying
    to do so.

    People, especially people with advanced degrees, who can't invent
    things, often resent people who do invent things. We just fired one
    case.

    They should accept that people are different, and pitch in to develop
    the new ideas that others invent. Their resentment often stops them
    from helping, so they become useless.

    I suppose this could be a new idea to you.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Sat Aug 31 07:24:33 2024
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 21:50:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:15:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:
    [...]
    Calculators yes.

    We weren't alowed to use a calculator on exams because it would give
    an unfair advantage to the students that could afford one.

    We were allowed mechanical calculators (Facits etc.) but there were only >enough for half the candidates. Half of us were locked in a room with a >spare envigilator acting as a guard while the other half sat the exam
    then we swapped places and the ones who had taken the exam were locked
    in while the second group sat the exam.

    Electronic calculators did not exist, but we did learn to program an
    analogue computer where 100v = 1 Machine Unit.

    A lot of current engineering practise is left over from the days when
    computing was expensive or non-existant. Things like s-parameters and
    Smith charts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Sep 1 02:11:45 2024
    On 31/08/2024 11:53 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 15:40:53 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 3:18 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 01:39:37 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 12:13 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 06:47:54 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 29 Aug 2024 11:47:42 -0700) it happened john larkin >>>>>> <jl@650pot.com> wrote in <pcg1djt6otqheh6vgi9len892jd21g1sn0@4ax.com>: >>>>>>
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:21:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.

    The ISS and moon landings are super-expensive theatre. Neither
    accomplishes anything.

    Boeing and Microsoft have the same problem, bean counter money-mongers >>>>>>> have taken over from engineers.

    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    Spice can be very handy. As Mike says, LT Spice's real function is to >>>>>>> train your instincts.

    I dunno, much I learned from working with tubes and transistors was by building small circuits and measuring what happened.
    Sure spice is great for math intensive stuff such as filters.. but you still need to know the basics.
    These days with chips doing much of the work and limited knowledge what is actually _in_ those chips
    it is hard to tell if a real circuit will behave like spice tells you >>>>>> You will still need real testing.

    Sure, but if I wake up at 3AM in Truckee, I can Spice an idea and go >>>>> back to bed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6TrbD7-IwU&list=PLlD2eDv5CIe9u7jbKUkZ5xrLLSCrn0z_e

    Actually, I have designed useful circuits by randomly fiddling with
    Spice, stupid topologies that turn out to work.

    What a creationist would call intelligent design. The rest of us call it >>>> evolving your circuits, rather than designing them, and you have
    described that as insanely inefficient.

    It's not inefficient if it's done insanely fast, in parallel,
    preferably asleep.

    Efficiency is the ratio of how long something actually takes compared
    with the time taken by some sort of ideal process. We don't know what
    the ideal process might look like, and have no idea how long it would
    take, so talking about the "efficiency" of the process is mere
    illiterate bullshit.

    You brain isn't wildly different from any other human brain and isn't
    going to do anything insanely fast, even when you are asleep.

    It doesn't matter how you describe the process. It works better if you
    don't.

    What makes you think that? I suspect the claim reflects the fact that
    you aren't good at explaining things and want an excuse to avoid trying
    to do so.

    People, especially people with advanced degrees, who can't invent
    things, often resent people who do invent things. We just fired one
    case.

    I can't say I've seen that. I do have an advanced degree, but I can
    invent things and, and I've hung out with people with rather more
    patents than I can claim, some of them with equally advanced degrees.

    They should accept that people are different, and pitch in to develop
    the new ideas that others invent. Their resentment often stops them
    from helping, so they become useless.

    Again, not something I've seen. Some of the people who think they have
    invented something useful get attached to some rather bad ideas, and
    resent informed criticism.

    I suppose this could be a new idea to you.

    I worked at EMI Central Research where you were encouraged to patent
    stuff. The engineers were much more relaxed about it than others I'd
    worked with in other places.

    My father got most of his 25-odd patents while I growing up, so I got to
    hear about the interactions in his work-place. It all seemed to run
    pretty smoothly.

    There's book that covers the period -"The Pulp" ISBN 978-0-9870915-5-0 -
    which records some resentful observations from some people well down the pecking order, but the guy that wrote the book didn't join the firm
    until after my father had moved on, and didn't know all that much about
    the period.

    It is a subject that I do know quite a bit about. You've got your name
    on just one patent that was taken out by a group you worked with. You
    may be less well-informed than you like to think.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Sep 1 01:43:32 2024
    On 1/09/2024 12:03 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 16:03:39 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 3:14 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:17:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 4:59 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:23:19 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>> wrote:

    On 29/08/2024 2:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.
    amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :) >>>>>>>
    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have >>>>>>> half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>>>> the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be
    completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity.

    Or a least to be able to react to John Larkin's insultingly trivial >>>>>> questions in a way that leaves him thinking that.

    Maybe he didn't understand the answers.

    You're impossible to talk too. Your only motivation is to insult.

    If your idea of a conversation is one where you get flattered nonstop, >>>> I'm not the ideal conversational partner.


    My idea of good conversation is a group of people playing with ideas
    and inventing stuff together. "Egoless" is the word, as in "egoless
    programming."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoless_programming

    I don't think you can do that. Some people are too fragile.

    Your opinion is noted. I doubt if the people with whom I have
    collaborated would agree.

    Sloman A.W., Buggs P., Molloy J., and Stewart D. “A
    microcontroller-based driver to stabilise the temperature of an optical
    stage to 1mK in the range 4C to 38C, using a Peltier heat pump and a
    thermistor sensor” Measurement Science and Technology, 7 1653-64 (1996)

    You did one academic, unremarkable temperature controller, published
    in a journal, and have cited it here maybe 50 times now. Do something
    new.

    I did quite a lot of stuff. That one wasn't in the least academic, and
    it got published because I didn't have anything better to do with my
    time immediately after I moved to the Netherlands

    Here's my millikelven temperature controller.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/emxfaurnyj35t0y84tvwl/Oven_Cables_pub.jpg?rlkey=jpcnmnt1pcooz9nj7d0j4rah0&raw=1

    That's a dual-stage Mach-Zender e/o modulator whose extinction is
    much better if the temperature is stable to milllikelvins. The big hogged-aluminum box is heated by six mosfets on the bottom, and there
    are four thermistors for feedback. It runs at 30C.

    Why four thermistors? The only temperature that matters is that of the modulator itself. People who need to minimise temperature gradients do
    need more than one temperature sensor, but it isn't clear why you would
    have. I used a second thermistor to monitor the temperature of the
    exhaust side of my Peltier cooler (which does matter) but you seem to
    have used mosfets as resistive heaters which is rather easier.

    This is part of the modulation system for a big laser.

    So what?

    I really over-did it on the enclosure. It's a lot heavier than it
    really needed to be.

    For short production runs it is cheaper to over-design that it is to
    design twice.

    As usual, you missed the point I was making, which was that I did do cooperative design, which does depend on being nice to your
    collaborators, and acknowledging their contributions to the final
    result, as I did there.

    The electron-beam tester story, which you've snipped, ran for longer and involved a considerably bigger team, and a lot more politics.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 31 17:59:04 2024
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 21:50:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:15:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:
    [...]
    Calculators yes.

    We weren't alowed to use a calculator on exams because it would give
    an unfair advantage to the students that could afford one.

    We were allowed mechanical calculators (Facits etc.) but there were only
    enough for half the candidates. Half of us were locked in a room with a
    spare envigilator acting as a guard while the other half sat the exam
    then we swapped places and the ones who had taken the exam were locked
    in while the second group sat the exam.

    Electronic calculators did not exist, but we did learn to program an
    analogue computer where 100v = 1 Machine Unit.

    A lot of current engineering practise is left over from the days when computing was expensive or non-existant. Things like s-parameters and
    Smith charts.

    I’ve done a lot of lowish-power RF stuff, and mostly agree with you about
    the practicality of using S parameters in hand calculations.

    However, I cordially disagree with your sentiments regarding Smith charts.

    For one thing, they’re super useful for designing optical coatings, but that’s a minority interest on SED.

    In RF work one runs into a lot of matching jobs involving modulated sine
    waves.

    One typical example from my work is coupling sine modulation into a diode laser, for modulation-generated carrier interferometry. (*)

    A Smith chart makes it super easy to try out different schemes, such as series/shunt stubs, lumped elements, or any combination thereof.

    Useless for bandwidths of an octave or more, and so apt to be undervalued
    by crass time-domain types. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    (*)MGC is dear to my heart—it’s about the only thing I’ve ever invented that was published by someone else first. (There are an amazing number of things to work on.)

    You put sinusoidal FM on the laser, and adjust the amplitude to the first carrier null (M=2.405 radians) at the interferometer output. At that point
    the first (Q phase) and second (I phase) signals are the same size, and
    account for about 85% of the total signal power.

    That lets you measure the complex signal just by looking at the amplitudes
    of the first two harmonics. Great for fiber sensors and other situations
    where there’s a lot of low frequency instability.

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 31 11:57:03 2024
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 01:43:32 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 1/09/2024 12:03 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 16:03:39 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 3:14 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:17:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 4:59 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:23:19 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>> wrote:

    On 29/08/2024 2:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid
    <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.
    amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :) >>>>>>>>
    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have >>>>>>>> half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>>>>> the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on
    transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be >>>>>>>> completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity. >>>>>>>
    Or a least to be able to react to John Larkin's insultingly trivial >>>>>>> questions in a way that leaves him thinking that.

    Maybe he didn't understand the answers.

    You're impossible to talk too. Your only motivation is to insult.

    If your idea of a conversation is one where you get flattered nonstop, >>>>> I'm not the ideal conversational partner.


    My idea of good conversation is a group of people playing with ideas
    and inventing stuff together. "Egoless" is the word, as in "egoless
    programming."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoless_programming

    I don't think you can do that. Some people are too fragile.

    Your opinion is noted. I doubt if the people with whom I have
    collaborated would agree.

    Sloman A.W., Buggs P., Molloy J., and Stewart D. A
    microcontroller-based driver to stabilise the temperature of an optical
    stage to 1mK in the range 4C to 38C, using a Peltier heat pump and a
    thermistor sensor Measurement Science and Technology, 7 1653-64 (1996)

    You did one academic, unremarkable temperature controller, published
    in a journal, and have cited it here maybe 50 times now. Do something
    new.

    I did quite a lot of stuff. That one wasn't in the least academic, and
    it got published because I didn't have anything better to do with my
    time immediately after I moved to the Netherlands

    Here's my millikelven temperature controller.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/emxfaurnyj35t0y84tvwl/Oven_Cables_pub.jpg?rlkey=jpcnmnt1pcooz9nj7d0j4rah0&raw=1

    That's a dual-stage Mach-Zender e/o modulator whose extinction is
    much better if the temperature is stable to milllikelvins. The big
    hogged-aluminum box is heated by six mosfets on the bottom, and there
    are four thermistors for feedback. It runs at 30C.

    Why four thermistors? The only temperature that matters is that of the >modulator itself. People who need to minimise temperature gradients do
    need more than one temperature sensor, but it isn't clear why you would
    have. I used a second thermistor to monitor the temperature of the
    exhaust side of my Peltier cooler (which does matter) but you seem to
    have used mosfets as resistive heaters which is rather easier.

    One thermistor is on the heater board, on the bottom of the big block.
    Three are on the platform that mounts the e/o modulator. We really
    don't need three up there, but we wanted to error check and snoop for
    gradients and optionally do some averaging if we had noise.

    The EOM platform is spaced off the bottom of the big block, which
    makes us a 2nd order thermal system. The main block has a 75 minute
    time constant, and the platform inside is 17 minutes. Our control
    algorithm uses the difference as, essentially, a derivative term.

    Coolers have lots of problems, including condensation. Heating to 30C
    worked fine. This is in maybe the world's biggest single clean room
    and the local air is always 20C.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Sat Aug 31 11:44:20 2024
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 17:59:04 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 21:50:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:15:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:
    [...]
    Calculators yes.

    We weren't alowed to use a calculator on exams because it would give
    an unfair advantage to the students that could afford one.

    We were allowed mechanical calculators (Facits etc.) but there were only >>> enough for half the candidates. Half of us were locked in a room with a >>> spare envigilator acting as a guard while the other half sat the exam
    then we swapped places and the ones who had taken the exam were locked
    in while the second group sat the exam.

    Electronic calculators did not exist, but we did learn to program an
    analogue computer where 100v = 1 Machine Unit.

    A lot of current engineering practise is left over from the days when
    computing was expensive or non-existant. Things like s-parameters and
    Smith charts.

    Ive done a lot of lowish-power RF stuff, and mostly agree with you about
    the practicality of using S parameters in hand calculations.

    However, I cordially disagree with your sentiments regarding Smith charts.

    For one thing, theyre super useful for designing optical coatings, but >thats a minority interest on SED.

    In RF work one runs into a lot of matching jobs involving modulated sine >waves.

    One typical example from my work is coupling sine modulation into a diode >laser, for modulation-generated carrier interferometry. (*)

    A Smith chart makes it super easy to try out different schemes, such as >series/shunt stubs, lumped elements, or any combination thereof.

    Useless for bandwidths of an octave or more, and so apt to be undervalued
    by crass time-domain types. ;)

    The interesting parts of the world are wideband and nonlinear. So are
    we.

    Sine waves are BORING.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Aug 31 20:14:35 2024
    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 17:59:04 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 21:50:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:15:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:
    [...]
    Calculators yes.

    We weren't alowed to use a calculator on exams because it would give >>>>> an unfair advantage to the students that could afford one.

    We were allowed mechanical calculators (Facits etc.) but there were only >>>> enough for half the candidates. Half of us were locked in a room with a >>>> spare envigilator acting as a guard while the other half sat the exam
    then we swapped places and the ones who had taken the exam were locked >>>> in while the second group sat the exam.

    Electronic calculators did not exist, but we did learn to program an
    analogue computer where 100v = 1 Machine Unit.

    A lot of current engineering practise is left over from the days when
    computing was expensive or non-existant. Things like s-parameters and
    Smith charts.

    I’ve done a lot of lowish-power RF stuff, and mostly agree with you about >> the practicality of using S parameters in hand calculations.

    However, I cordially disagree with your sentiments regarding Smith charts. >>
    For one thing, they’re super useful for designing optical coatings, but
    that’s a minority interest on SED.

    In RF work one runs into a lot of matching jobs involving modulated sine
    waves.

    One typical example from my work is coupling sine modulation into a diode
    laser, for modulation-generated carrier interferometry. (*)

    A Smith chart makes it super easy to try out different schemes, such as
    series/shunt stubs, lumped elements, or any combination thereof.

    Useless for bandwidths of an octave or more, and so apt to be undervalued
    by crass time-domain types. ;)

    The interesting parts of the world are wideband and nonlinear. So are
    we.

    I noticed. ;)


    Sine waves are BORING.

    You’ve been hanging out with the wrong crowd, obviously. Tsk tsk.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs





    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From ehsjr@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Sat Aug 31 17:43:55 2024
    On 8/31/2024 4:14 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    snip


    Sine waves are BORING.

    You’ve been hanging out with the wrong crowd, obviously. Tsk tsk.

    :-)


    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Sat Aug 31 16:40:45 2024
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 20:14:35 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 17:59:04 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 21:50:19 +0100, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
    (Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 16:15:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>>> wrote:
    [...]
    Calculators yes.

    We weren't alowed to use a calculator on exams because it would give >>>>>> an unfair advantage to the students that could afford one.

    We were allowed mechanical calculators (Facits etc.) but there were only >>>>> enough for half the candidates. Half of us were locked in a room with a >>>>> spare envigilator acting as a guard while the other half sat the exam >>>>> then we swapped places and the ones who had taken the exam were locked >>>>> in while the second group sat the exam.

    Electronic calculators did not exist, but we did learn to program an >>>>> analogue computer where 100v = 1 Machine Unit.

    A lot of current engineering practise is left over from the days when
    computing was expensive or non-existant. Things like s-parameters and
    Smith charts.

    I?ve done a lot of lowish-power RF stuff, and mostly agree with you about >>> the practicality of using S parameters in hand calculations.

    However, I cordially disagree with your sentiments regarding Smith charts. >>>
    For one thing, they?re super useful for designing optical coatings, but
    that?s a minority interest on SED.

    In RF work one runs into a lot of matching jobs involving modulated sine >>> waves.

    One typical example from my work is coupling sine modulation into a diode >>> laser, for modulation-generated carrier interferometry. (*)

    A Smith chart makes it super easy to try out different schemes, such as
    series/shunt stubs, lumped elements, or any combination thereof.

    Useless for bandwidths of an octave or more, and so apt to be undervalued >>> by crass time-domain types. ;)

    The interesting parts of the world are wideband and nonlinear. So are
    we.

    I noticed. ;)


    Sine waves are BORING.

    Youve been hanging out with the wrong crowd, obviously. Tsk tsk.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    There is a story about Feynman. Somebody bumped into him in a hallway
    and suggested using multilayer mirrors. He came back two days later
    with the complete theory of multilayer optical filters.

    ASML uses zillion-layer mirrors in their EUV systems, at 13 nm.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Sep 1 15:15:39 2024
    On 1/09/2024 4:57 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 01:43:32 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 1/09/2024 12:03 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 16:03:39 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 31/08/2024 3:14 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 30 Aug 2024 14:17:14 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 4:59 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 29 Aug 2024 20:23:19 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On 29/08/2024 2:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 15:21:00 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn
    <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Wed, 28 Aug 2024 04:28:02 -0000 (UTC), Sergey Kubushyn >>>>>>>>>>> <ksi@koi8.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:55:32 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid >>>>>>>>>>>>> <martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> Wrote in message:r >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT), Martin Rid<martin_riddle@verison.net> wrote:>Anyone own the gds-1202b ?>>Any good?>>$350 at tequipment>>CheersI haven't tried that one. We like the Rigols.I recently acquired a Siglenthttps://www.
    amazon.com/gp/product/B06XZML6RD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1and gave it to one of my engineers. I'll ask him how he likes it.It has an up-front DEFAULT button, which a digital scope needs to getyou out of nightmare states.

    Other than the lack of software features, the 200mhz bw for 350 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dollars is intriguing.

    Cheers

    It sounds pretty good to me.

    https://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2020/02/SDS1000X-E_DataSheet_DS0101E-E04C.pdf

    What's missing?

    I like the 500 uV/div.

    If you want to save the last penny, maybe. But you can get way better scope
    for slightly more -- Rigol DHO800/DHO900. It is 12-bit, same 550uV/div, has
    all standard serial protocols decoding, very light and compact, can work
    from a battery with USB-C power connector, way better than that Siglent that
    feels like relic next to those DHOs.

    We use almost all Rigols at work. My slow bench scope is a 500 MHz >>>>>>>>>>> DS4034 (upgraded from 350 MHz)

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/ns08x686afbayjsw8c2ab/h?rlkey=iu4h89057t755pueg4ijnldbo&dl=0

    and my fast scope is a Tek 11802 sampler.

    I also have one, 11801C. Couple of SD-24s, SD-20, and SD-22 heads :) >>>>>>>>>
    At the original purchase price, adjusted for inflation, I must have >>>>>>>>> half a million dollars worth of sampling heads.

    The color grading and jitter measurement is great on the 11801C, but >>>>>>>>> the old B+W screens photograph better.

    I'll miss my 11802 when it eventually dies.

    The TDR is great. I'm going to give my new kids a lecture on >>>>>>>>> transmission lines, and I'll show them some TDR.

    It is apparently possible these days to get an EE degree and be >>>>>>>>> completely ignorant of transmission lines. Or even electricity. >>>>>>>>
    Or a least to be able to react to John Larkin's insultingly trivial >>>>>>>> questions in a way that leaves him thinking that.

    Maybe he didn't understand the answers.

    You're impossible to talk too. Your only motivation is to insult. >>>>>>
    If your idea of a conversation is one where you get flattered nonstop, >>>>>> I'm not the ideal conversational partner.


    My idea of good conversation is a group of people playing with ideas >>>>> and inventing stuff together. "Egoless" is the word, as in "egoless
    programming."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egoless_programming

    I don't think you can do that. Some people are too fragile.

    Your opinion is noted. I doubt if the people with whom I have
    collaborated would agree.

    Sloman A.W., Buggs P., Molloy J., and Stewart D. “A
    microcontroller-based driver to stabilise the temperature of an optical >>>> stage to 1mK in the range 4C to 38C, using a Peltier heat pump and a
    thermistor sensor” Measurement Science and Technology, 7 1653-64 (1996) >>>
    You did one academic, unremarkable temperature controller, published
    in a journal, and have cited it here maybe 50 times now. Do something
    new.

    I did quite a lot of stuff. That one wasn't in the least academic, and
    it got published because I didn't have anything better to do with my
    time immediately after I moved to the Netherlands

    Here's my millikelven temperature controller.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/emxfaurnyj35t0y84tvwl/Oven_Cables_pub.jpg?rlkey=jpcnmnt1pcooz9nj7d0j4rah0&raw=1

    That's a dual-stage Mach-Zender e/o modulator whose extinction is
    much better if the temperature is stable to milllikelvins. The big
    hogged-aluminum box is heated by six mosfets on the bottom, and there
    are four thermistors for feedback. It runs at 30C.

    Why four thermistors? The only temperature that matters is that of the
    modulator itself. People who need to minimise temperature gradients do
    need more than one temperature sensor, but it isn't clear why you would
    have. I used a second thermistor to monitor the temperature of the
    exhaust side of my Peltier cooler (which does matter) but you seem to
    have used mosfets as resistive heaters which is rather easier.

    One thermistor is on the heater board, on the bottom of the big block.
    Three are on the platform that mounts the e/o modulator. We really
    don't need three up there, but we wanted to error check and snoop for gradients and optionally do some averaging if we had noise.

    The EOM platform is spaced off the bottom of the big block, which
    makes us a 2nd order thermal system. The main block has a 75 minute
    time constant, and the platform inside is 17 minutes. Our control
    algorithm uses the difference as, essentially, a derivative term.

    We did characterise the thermal time constants of our system pretty
    carefully, as is spelled out in the paper, which does speculate on
    whether a better control algorithm would have let us achieve finer
    temperature control.

    Coolers have lots of problems, including condensation. Heating to 30C
    worked fine. This is in maybe the world's biggest single clean room
    and the local air is always 20C.

    Our machine was designed to work on biological specimens, and had to
    stabilise the specimen temperatures at industry-defined arbitrary
    levels, most of them a little above normal room temperature. The
    customers were warned that they'd have to purge the optical path with
    dry air (usually dry nitrogen) if they set the target temperature below
    the local dew point.

    The Peltier junction was unavoidable.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jl@650pot.com on Sun Sep 1 07:36:34 2024
    On a sunny day (Sat, 31 Aug 2024 11:57:03 -0700) it happened john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote in <t5p6djh6vdfl5kmosb54bdpnn7e9np0smg@4ax.com>:

    Here's my millikelven temperature controller.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/emxfaurnyj35t0y84tvwl/Oven_Cables_pub.jpg?rlkey=jpcnmnt1pcooz9nj7d0j4rah0&raw=1

    That's a dual-stage Mach-Zender e/o modulator whose extinction is
    much better if the temperature is stable to milllikelvins. The big
    hogged-aluminum box is heated by six mosfets on the bottom, and there
    are four thermistors for feedback. It runs at 30C.

    Why four thermistors? The only temperature that matters is that of the >>modulator itself. People who need to minimise temperature gradients do
    need more than one temperature sensor, but it isn't clear why you would >>have. I used a second thermistor to monitor the temperature of the
    exhaust side of my Peltier cooler (which does matter) but you seem to
    have used mosfets as resistive heaters which is rather easier.

    One thermistor is on the heater board, on the bottom of the big block.
    Three are on the platform that mounts the e/o modulator. We really
    don't need three up there, but we wanted to error check and snoop for >gradients and optionally do some averaging if we had noise.

    The EOM platform is spaced off the bottom of the big block, which
    makes us a 2nd order thermal system. The main block has a 75 minute
    time constant, and the platform inside is 17 minutes. Our control
    algorithm uses the difference as, essentially, a derivative term.

    Coolers have lots of problems, including condensation. Heating to 30C
    worked fine. This is in maybe the world's biggest single clean room
    and the local air is always 20C.


    Decent temperature stability over several years:
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/tri_pic/
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/tri_pic/tritium_decay_experiment_black_box_open_on_main_PCB_with_beeper_IMG_3874.GIF
    https://panteltje.nl/panteltje/tri_pic/tritium_decay_experiment_closed_black_box_IMG_3868.GIF


    Much better time constant, much cheaper, took an hour to code, maybe 2 to build Uses less power, can run on batteries if main fails,
    :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Sep 1 17:45:46 2024
    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested. >>
    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    mathematical bullshit much of the time.

    It does happen. You do have to know what to look out for.

    That is why we are stuck with Albert onestone crap and wrong cosmological models
    that even a 10 year old can see are wrong.

    Ten year-old don't usually know all that much, and quite a lot of
    perfectly correct ideas look wrong to them, as they do to you, for much
    the same reasons.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bill.sloman@ieee.org on Sun Sep 1 11:06:20 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb163a$1dt9b$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    mathematical bullshit much of the time.

    It does happen. You do have to know what to look out for.

    That is why we are stuck with Albert onestone crap and wrong cosmological models
    that even a 10 year old can see are wrong.

    Ten year-old don't usually know all that much,

    'Usually'
    I was looking back at stuff I worked at at <10 years old, like OLED TV display long before anyone even had the idea AFAIK.
    I made conductors with carbon pencil on paper and tried stuff if it would light up if
    the crossings were powered.


    and quite a lot of perfectly correct ideas look wrong to them, as they do to you, for much
    the same reasons.

    The whole stuff of what they call big bang is sold the wrong way around
    If indeed there was a big explosion the resulting fragments were black holes that then later started spewing out
    material that formed galaxies or was - and became stars
    Like fireworks.
    In a space that is NOT empty, like a garden sprinkler in the air.
    Albert onestone crap is jewish brainwash that has indoctrinated science now for long enough
    The creep never did an experiment in his life apart from a bad working fridge, his mamamatical stuff he likely stole from his wife who was a mamatician and his relatitvitty stuff
    came from the same source, nothing related the the atom bomb really came from him apart
    from suggesting to the then US precedent to use it for genocide on the Japanese He took Bose's paper and put his own name on it (Bose onestone condensate). Albert's way of thinking was proven wrong in the eighties by Aspect.
    His time / space is curved shit means he had no clue of any mechanism...
    Look up Le Sage wikidia for a mechanism.
    Albert's is as dumb as is electrickety without electrons
    Billions are wasted in job creation programs for parrots of his crap,
    like CERN and ITER that never go anywhere.

    :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Sep 1 21:38:47 2024
    On 1/09/2024 9:06 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb163a$1dt9b$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance. >>
    mathematical bullshit much of the time.

    It does happen. You do have to know what to look out for.

    That is why we are stuck with Albert onestone crap and wrong cosmological models
    that even a 10 year old can see are wrong.

    Ten year-old don't usually know all that much,

    'Usually'
    I was looking back at stuff I worked at at <10 years old, like OLED TV display
    long before anyone even had the idea AFAIK.
    I made conductors with carbon pencil on paper and tried stuff if it would light up if
    the crossings were powered.

    That's not any kind of organic light-emitting diode. Graphite is
    elemental carbon, not any kind of organic compound. A ten-ear-old might
    not know that. You still don't seem to be aware of it.

    and quite a lot of perfectly correct ideas look wrong to them, as they do to you, for much
    the same reasons.

    The whole stuff of what they call big bang is sold the wrong way around.

    It's not "sold". It's published as model that fits pretty much all the observations we've collected.

    If indeed there was a big explosion the resulting fragments were black holes that then later started spewing out
    material that formed galaxies or was - and became stars.

    Explosion isn't quite the right concept. The universe is pictured as
    starting off very small, very dense, and expanding rapidly, but it
    created the space it expanded into as it expanded.

    If shrank back into what it started off as it would clearly be a black
    hole, but if it were it wouldn't have expanded. There weren't any
    fragments - the early inhomogeneities are visible as small variations in
    the cosmic microwave background, and they have been measured.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background.

    Like fireworks.

    From a ten-year-old's point of view.

    <snipped more toxic ignorance>

    His time / space is curved shit means he had no clue of any mechanism...
    Look up Le Sage wikipedia for a mechanism.

    One that doesn't work.

    Albert's is as dumb as is electricity without electrons.

    The discovery of electricity preceded the discovery of electrons
    - J J Thompson didn't discover them until 1897.

    Billions are wasted in job creation programs for parrots of his crap,
    like CERN and ITER that never go anywhere.

    Neither CERN nor ITER is designed to go anywhere - they are static installations. CERN has managed to find the Higg's Boson, so it has made
    some progress. ITER is still being put together

    https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/ITER-s-proposed-new-timeline-initial-phase-of-oper

    Try to post about stuff you do know something about.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bill.sloman@ieee.org on Sun Sep 1 12:41:42 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 21:38:47 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb1job$1fp20$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 9:06 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb163a$1dt9b$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    mathematical bullshit much of the time.

    It does happen. You do have to know what to look out for.

    That is why we are stuck with Albert onestone crap and wrong cosmological models
    that even a 10 year old can see are wrong.

    Ten year-old don't usually know all that much,

    'Usually'
    I was looking back at stuff I worked at at <10 years old, like OLED TV display
    long before anyone even had the idea AFAIK.
    I made conductors with carbon pencil on paper and tried stuff if it would light up if
    the crossings were powered.

    That's not any kind of organic light-emitting diode. Graphite is
    elemental carbon, not any kind of organic compound. A ten-ear-old might
    not know that. You still don't seem to be aware of it.

    The graphite was thw WIRES smartass!!!
    Like this,
    #
    stuff at the crossings

    and quite a lot of perfectly correct ideas look wrong to them, as they do to you, for much
    the same reasons.

    The whole stuff of what they call big bang is sold the wrong way around.

    It's not "sold". It's published as model that fits pretty much all the >observations we've collected.

    Fits no such observations
    That is why MOND (modified ... Newtonian gravity) popped up.
    Dark matter, etc etc



    If indeed there was a big explosion the resulting fragments were black holes that then later started spewing out
    material that formed galaxies or was - and became stars.

    Explosion isn't quite the right concept. The universe is pictured as
    starting off very small, very dense, and expanding rapidly, but it
    created the space it expanded into as it expanded.

    Only in the imagination of mamaticians who are starting as kids to try to do a divde by nothing (zero)
    and then create infinities such as black's holes

    Tip: there are no infinitoes in natire, somethng always wil give way
    Same with Ohm's law, 1 V in zero Ohm gves infinte curent , no it does not. Undestand electrons, without electrons Ohms law is sueless
    Without a mechanism onestoines babble is uselss.
    Withoput onestine's babbl;e things become fun.
    Withoutg Ohm's law and with electroins things become fun.

    Albert's is as dumb as is electricity without electrons.

    Neither CERN nor ITER is designed to go anywhere

    Right. they are job creation programs for albert's parrots

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 1 07:09:46 2024
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Sep 2 01:56:13 2024
    On 1/09/2024 10:41 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 21:38:47 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb1job$1fp20$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 9:06 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb163a$1dt9b$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    Explosion isn't quite the right concept. The universe is pictured as
    starting off very small, very dense, and expanding rapidly, but it
    created the space it expanded into as it expanded.

    Only in the imagination of mathematicians who are starting as kids to try to do a divide by nothing (zero)
    and then create infinities such as black's holes.

    You've got that backwards. Black holes are entirely finite, because they contain enough mass to close space back in on itself.

    Tip: there are no infinities in nature, something always will give way.

    With black holes it's the curvature of space-time.

    Same with Ohm's law, 1 V in zero Ohm gves infinte curent , no it does not. Understand electrons, without electrons Ohms law is useless.

    Georg Ohm published his law in 1827, 70 years before J J Thompson
    discovered the electron. It works just as well for other charge carriers.

    Without a mechanism onestoines babble is useless
    By which you mean that you can't understand it.

    Without onestine's babble things become fun.
    Without Ohm's law and with electrons things become fun.

    Ask any ten year-old.

    Albert's is as dumb as is electricity without electrons.

    Neither CERN nor ITER is designed to go anywhere

    Right. they are job creation programs for Albert's parrots.

    Neither CERN nor ITER have much to do within Einstein's interests.

    CERN is about nuclear physics, which has moved on quite a way from
    Einstein's insights, and ITER is about getting nuclear fusion to work,
    which is even less dependent on Einstein's insights - it does depend on
    E=MC^2, but once that had been used to explain the mass defect in
    elements heavier than hydrogen, Einstein didn't have any real involvement.

    The popular press made a lot of fuss about Einstein, but Bohr, Dirac, Heisenberg, Schroedinger, Lorentz Planck and Pauli were all in much the
    same class.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 2 02:20:42 2024
    On 2/09/2024 12:09 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    And you don't simulate them either. Simulation is - in part - about
    letting the math throw up unexpected effects that appear when you hook
    up a bunch of components. Knowing when it matter relies on the
    simulation inside your head.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    So you didn't read the data sheets carefully enough. It's not a part
    that would usually be described as "surface mount". If you'd scraped the
    enamel off the bottom of the coil and soldered each turn down onto an
    isolated copper pad on the board, it probably would qualify as surface
    mount, and would have had better thermal contact with the board.

    You might have had to make it as sintered metal 3-D printed structure to
    get this to work - the wound coil looks a bit irregular.

    Lost wax casting could have worked too.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    That defines it diameter. Measuring that with a vernier caliper would
    give you a number you could document.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.

    If you'd wound it with copper tube you could have pumped water through
    the tube, or made it a heat pipe.

    A 3-D printed structure would have offered more options.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 1 17:55:58 2024
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor
    customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Sun Sep 1 15:53:46 2024
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL
    (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied tp a physical
    object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap
    is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near
    the cap, 73 mm away.

    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape,
    with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 1 13:17:03 2024
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL
    (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied tp a physical
    object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap
    is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near
    the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that
    the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The
    Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and
    proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape,
    with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 1 13:32:59 2024
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 02:20:42 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 2/09/2024 12:09 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    And you don't simulate them either.

    Only when they matter.

    Simulation is - in part - about
    letting the math throw up unexpected effects that appear when you hook
    up a bunch of components. Knowing when it matter relies on the
    simulation inside your head.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    So you didn't read the data sheets carefully enough.

    Sure I did. They should have worked, based on the data sheets.


    It's not a part
    that would usually be described as "surface mount". If you'd scraped the >enamel off the bottom of the coil and soldered each turn down onto an >isolated copper pad on the board, it probably would qualify as surface
    mount, and would have had better thermal contact with the board.

    I did that on the ends. I think the gap-pad works better thermally
    than soldering every turn to the board.

    Have you ever used a surface-mount coil that soldered every turn to
    the board? Got a link?


    You might have had to make it as sintered metal 3-D printed structure to
    get this to work - the wound coil looks a bit irregular.

    Losses would be crazy.


    Lost wax casting could have worked too.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    That defines it diameter. Measuring that with a vernier caliper would
    give you a number you could document.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.

    If you'd wound it with copper tube you could have pumped water through
    the tube, or made it a heat pipe.

    And supply a water tank and a pump and water connectors?


    A 3-D printed structure would have offered more options.

    Again, massive losses.

    My inductor is cheap and simple and works.

    If I get a gigantic order, I'll have a coil winding company make them
    and retire the Sharpie.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 1 17:43:32 2024
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs >><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL
    (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical
    object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap
    is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near
    the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that
    the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The
    Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape,
    with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may
    be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bill.sloman@ieee.org on Mon Sep 2 02:34:59 2024
    On a sunny day (Mon, 2 Sep 2024 01:56:13 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb22qu$1hles$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 10:41 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 21:38:47 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb1job$1fp20$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 9:06 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb163a$1dt9b$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    Explosion isn't quite the right concept. The universe is pictured as
    starting off very small, very dense, and expanding rapidly, but it
    created the space it expanded into as it expanded.

    Only in the imagination of mathematicians who are starting as kids to try to do a divide by nothing (zero)
    and then create infinities such as black's holes.

    You've got that backwards. Black holes are entirely finite, because they >contain enough mass to close space back in on itself.

    SOund like shit talk

    In a Le Sage system there is a point where all LS particles ae intercepted.


    Tip: there are no infinities in nature, something always will give way.

    With black holes it's the curvature of space-time.

    Space and time are not curved, matter is less compressed near a big mass that intercepts some
    LS particles, making the pendulum longer and clocks slowing down.
    Same limits apply

    It is simple.



    Same with Ohm's law, 1 V in zero Ohm gves infinte curent , no it does not. >> Understand electrons, without electrons Ohms law is useless.

    Georg Ohm published his law in 1827, 70 years before J J Thompson
    discovered the electron. It works just as well for other charge carriers.

    Without a mechanism onestoines babble is useless
    By which you mean that you can't understand it.

    equation parrots brainwash kids
    No wonder nothing happened since onestone
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrxX9TBj2zY

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 02:48:45 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:32:59 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <ncj9djtjao9gsvtojue9q9jph1ro1gl8or@4ax.com>:

    My inductor is cheap and simple and works.

    If I get a gigantic order, I'll have a coil winding company make them
    and retire the Sharpie.

    Some time ago I mentioned ceramic coil formers with grooves to you.
    There were some in the mil transceivers.
    It fixes the turns in position and diameter
    https://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/Ind-SlugTu/Ind-SlugTu-4.html
    ebay has some too I think

    You could have some made if you sell thousands, any pottery;-)

    I had some nice big ones with silvered wire in my 250 W linear in school days.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 1 19:49:39 2024
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs >>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL
    (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap
    is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near
    the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that
    the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The
    Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape,
    with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom,
    with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of
    the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may
    be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind
    the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Inductors are a pain.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to alien@comet.invalid on Mon Sep 2 02:53:25 2024
    On a sunny day (Mon, 02 Sep 2024 02:48:45 GMT) it happened Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in <vb392e$20dl8$1@solani.org>:

    On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:32:59 -0700) it happened john larkin ><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <ncj9djtjao9gsvtojue9q9jph1ro1gl8or@4ax.com>:

    My inductor is cheap and simple and works.

    If I get a gigantic order, I'll have a coil winding company make them
    and retire the Sharpie.

    Some time ago I mentioned ceramic coil formers with grooves to you.
    There were some in the mil transceivers.
    It fixes the turns in position and diameter
    https://www.surplussales.com/Inductors/Ind-SlugTu/Ind-SlugTu-4.html
    ebay has some too I think

    You could have some made if you sell thousands, any pottery;-)

    I had some nice big ones with silvered wire in my 250 W linear in school days.

    PS you do know about skin effect do you?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 02:56:51 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <6p8adjh4ief0cfk1ohc1i54t6tob41q6o6@4ax.com>:

    Inductors are a pain.

    Na... inductors are fun!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 2 17:13:59 2024
    On 2/09/2024 6:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 02:20:42 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 2/09/2024 12:09 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    And you don't simulate them either.

    Only when they matter.

    Simulation is - in part - about
    letting the math throw up unexpected effects that appear when you hook
    up a bunch of components. Knowing when it matter relies on the
    simulation inside your head.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    So you didn't read the data sheets carefully enough.

    Sure I did. They should have worked, based on the data sheets.

    Based on your understanding of the data sheet, which was obviously
    inadequate. It's revealing that you don't post links to the data sheets
    or specify the number that you relied on when you assumed that they
    ought to have worked.

    It's not a part
    that would usually be described as "surface mount". If you'd scraped the
    enamel off the bottom of the coil and soldered each turn down onto an
    isolated copper pad on the board, it probably would qualify as surface
    mount, and would have had better thermal contact with the board.

    I did that on the ends. I think the gap-pad works better thermally
    than soldering every turn to the board.

    Solder is metal, and has a higher conductivity than your gap-pad
    material. You can over-fill the joint, which would help.

    Have you ever used a surface-mount coil that soldered every turn to
    the board? Got a link?

    No. It's merely an obvious possibility.

    You might have had to make it as a sintered metal 3-D printed structure to >> get this to work - the wound coil looks a bit irregular.

    Losses would be crazy.

    What makes you think that? The fact that the part is sintered doesn't
    mean that you won't get close to solid metal electrical conductivity.
    Lost wax casting could have worked too.

    And even you must concede that that wouldn't have been lossy.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    That defines it diameter. Measuring that with a vernier caliper would
    give you a number you could document.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.

    If you'd wound it with copper tube you could have pumped water through
    the tube, or made it a heat pipe.

    And supply a water tank and a pump and water connectors?

    Heat pipes don't need that. A closed system doesn't need a water-tank,
    and lots of top-end computer coolers do rely on circulating water.

    A 3-D printed structure would have offered more options.

    Again, massive losses.

    Imagined massive losses.

    My inductor is cheap and simple and works.

    It's hand-wound, so it looks cheaper than it is.
    If I get a gigantic order, I'll have a coil winding company make them
    and retire the Sharpie.

    Or come up with a more sensible solution?

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Sep 2 16:54:18 2024
    On 2/09/2024 12:34 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 2 Sep 2024 01:56:13 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb22qu$1hles$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 10:41 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 21:38:47 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb1job$1fp20$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 9:06 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb163a$1dt9b$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    Explosion isn't quite the right concept. The universe is pictured as
    starting off very small, very dense, and expanding rapidly, but it
    created the space it expanded into as it expanded.

    Only in the imagination of mathematicians who are starting as kids to try to do a divide by nothing (zero)
    and then create infinities such as black's holes.

    You've got that backwards. Black holes are entirely finite, because they
    contain enough mass to close space back in on itself.

    Sound like shit talk.

    Which is to say you don't understand it, and resent having your
    ignorance highlighted

    In a Le Sage system there is a point where all LS particles are intercepted.

    Pity about all the other defects in the Le Sage model.

    Tip: there are no infinities in nature, something always will give way.

    With black holes it's the curvature of space-time.

    Space and time are not curved, matter is less compressed near a big mass that intercepts some
    LS particles, making the pendulum longer and clocks slowing down.

    That would be relevant is the Le Sage model could work. It can't.

    Gravitational lensing demonstrates that space-tine is curved in the
    vicinity of any mass - you need a lot of mass to get an observable
    curvature,

    The first big test of that prediction was made during the 1919 eclipse
    of the sun.

    https://earthsky.org/human-world/may-29-1919-solar-eclipse-einstein-relativity/

    There have been plenty of others since then.

    Same limits apply

    It is simple.

    If you ignore most of the data.

    <snipped more ill-informed nonsense.>

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 2 17:52:09 2024
    On 2/09/2024 12:49 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    If the FR4 losses matter, the printed circuit board under the coil would darken, which the customers wouldn't like. The Cambridge Instruments
    0.5nsec beam blanker did that so we swapped to a different substrate
    that didn't discolour.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom,
    with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of
    the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    It's a sawtooth so it has quite a lot of higher harmonic components with
    even thinner skin depths. Baxandall's preference for sine waves has
    incidental advantages.

    The turns are wide and flat, which reduces the effect of skin dept.
    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.

    https://www.coilcraft.com/getmedia/55a4b40a-2e02-4bf5-b0af-2ea5db75b6cf/1010vs.pdf

    There are five 1010VS parts, all rated at about 25A rms. You haven't
    specified which one you used three of.

    That 25A rms isn't going to include any allowance for skin effect.

    They don't look as if there would be much cross-talk from one to the
    next. Making space for more parts might have been a better approach.

    With +/-20% tolerance on inductance, putting them in parallel wouldn't
    have been a good idea.

    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may
    be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind
    the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Inductors are a pain.

    Particularly when you don't think about what you doing.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to bill.sloman@ieee.org on Mon Sep 2 10:37:23 2024
    On a sunny day (Mon, 2 Sep 2024 16:54:18 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb3neq$1scn0$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 2/09/2024 12:34 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 2 Sep 2024 01:56:13 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb22qu$1hles$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 10:41 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 21:38:47 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb1job$1fp20$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 9:06 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb163a$1dt9b$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    Explosion isn't quite the right concept. The universe is pictured as >>>>> starting off very small, very dense, and expanding rapidly, but it
    created the space it expanded into as it expanded.

    Only in the imagination of mathematicians who are starting as kids to try to do a divide by nothing (zero)
    and then create infinities such as black's holes.

    You've got that backwards. Black holes are entirely finite, because they >>> contain enough mass to close space back in on itself.

    Sound like shit talk.

    Which is to say you don't understand it, and resent having your
    ignorance highlighted

    In a Le Sage system there is a point where all LS particles are intercepted.

    Pity about all the other defects in the Le Sage model.

    Tip: there are no infinities in nature, something always will give way. >>>
    With black holes it's the curvature of space-time.

    Space and time are not curved, matter is less compressed near a big mass that intercepts some
    LS particles, making the pendulum longer and clocks slowing down.

    That would be relevant is the Le Sage model could work. It can't.

    Gravitational lensing demonstrates that space-tine is curved in the
    vicinity of any mass - you need a lot of mass to get an observable
    curvature,

    The first big test of that prediction was made during the 1919 eclipse
    of the sun.

    https://earthsky.org/human-world/may-29-1919-solar-eclipse-einstein-relativity/

    There have been plenty of others since then.

    Same limits apply

    It is simple.

    If you ignore most of the data.

    <snipped more ill-informed nonsense.>

    You need a brain-wash

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Sep 2 23:28:43 2024
    On 2/09/2024 8:37 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 2 Sep 2024 16:54:18 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb3neq$1scn0$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 2/09/2024 12:34 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Mon, 2 Sep 2024 01:56:13 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb22qu$1hles$2@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 10:41 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 21:38:47 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb1job$1fp20$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 1/09/2024 9:06 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vb163a$1dt9b$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    Explosion isn't quite the right concept. The universe is pictured as >>>>>> starting off very small, very dense, and expanding rapidly, but it >>>>>> created the space it expanded into as it expanded.

    Only in the imagination of mathematicians who are starting as kids to try to do a divide by nothing (zero)
    and then create infinities such as black's holes.

    You've got that backwards. Black holes are entirely finite, because they >>>> contain enough mass to close space back in on itself.

    Sound like shit talk.

    Which is to say you don't understand it, and resent having your
    ignorance highlighted

    In a Le Sage system there is a point where all LS particles are intercepted.

    Pity about all the other defects in the Le Sage model.

    Tip: there are no infinities in nature, something always will give way. >>>>
    With black holes it's the curvature of space-time.

    Space and time are not curved, matter is less compressed near a big mass that intercepts some
    LS particles, making the pendulum longer and clocks slowing down.

    That would be relevant is the Le Sage model could work. It can't.

    Gravitational lensing demonstrates that space-tine is curved in the
    vicinity of any mass - you need a lot of mass to get an observable
    curvature,

    The first big test of that prediction was made during the 1919 eclipse
    of the sun.

    https://earthsky.org/human-world/may-29-1919-solar-eclipse-einstein-relativity/

    There have been plenty of others since then.

    Same limits apply

    It is simple.

    If you ignore most of the data.

    <snipped more ill-informed nonsense.>

    You need a brain-wash.

    So I can end up as ill-informed as you are?

    Somebody who believes what he reads in Russia Today has already been brainwashed, and you are complaining that I haven't been suckered by the
    mis-information that you have swallowed, hook, line and sinker.

    Though not even they are silly enough to have gone for the Le Sage
    theory of gravity.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 10:02:34 2024
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs >>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>>>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL
    (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap
    is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that
    the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The >>>Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom,
    with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of
    the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may
    be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind
    the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to
    20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.


    Inductors are a pain.

    But useful. Or essential in some cases.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Mon Sep 2 15:25:59 2024
    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>>>>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>> customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL
    (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical
    object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>> is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>> the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that
    the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The
    Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and
    proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape,
    with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom,
    with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of
    the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may
    be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind
    the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to
    20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.

    Lo these forty year gone, I had this RF gig that involved making a lot of
    VHF LC oscillatior and filter protos.

    We had a hand-cranked coil winder that had a good selection of cylindrical steel mandrels with helical grooves to guide the wire, plus three or four sheets with tables of measured values for single-layer coils of various lengths. With a couple of training runs, one learned how hard to pull on
    the wire so that it would just spring free from the mandrel.

    That made it easy to make nice looking, high-Q coils for the inductance
    range of interest. Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs




    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 08:31:42 2024
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 17:13:59 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 2/09/2024 6:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 02:20:42 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 2/09/2024 12:09 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    And you don't simulate them either.

    Only when they matter.

    Simulation is - in part - about
    letting the math throw up unexpected effects that appear when you hook
    up a bunch of components. Knowing when it matter relies on the
    simulation inside your head.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    So you didn't read the data sheets carefully enough.

    Sure I did. They should have worked, based on the data sheets.

    Based on your understanding of the data sheet, which was obviously >inadequate. It's revealing that you don't post links to the data sheets
    or specify the number that you relied on when you assumed that they
    ought to have worked.

    It's not a part
    that would usually be described as "surface mount". If you'd scraped the >>> enamel off the bottom of the coil and soldered each turn down onto an
    isolated copper pad on the board, it probably would qualify as surface
    mount, and would have had better thermal contact with the board.

    I did that on the ends. I think the gap-pad works better thermally
    than soldering every turn to the board.

    Solder is metal, and has a higher conductivity than your gap-pad
    material. You can over-fill the joint, which would help.

    It wouldn't help much to conduct heat into a PCB pad. FR4 is a
    terrible heat conductor.




    Have you ever used a surface-mount coil that soldered every turn to
    the board? Got a link?

    No. It's merely an obvious possibility.

    Ha.


    You might have had to make it as a sintered metal 3-D printed structure to >>> get this to work - the wound coil looks a bit irregular.

    Losses would be crazy.

    What makes you think that? The fact that the part is sintered doesn't
    mean that you won't get close to solid metal electrical conductivity.

    Skin depth is about 30 microns here, and we need a smooth, homogenous,
    annealed surface. Ask a chemist.

    Lost wax casting could have worked too.

    And even you must concede that that wouldn't have been lossy.

    Impractical, and cast copper is probably a worse conductor than
    annealed.


    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    That defines it diameter. Measuring that with a vernier caliper would
    give you a number you could document.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.

    If you'd wound it with copper tube you could have pumped water through
    the tube, or made it a heat pipe.

    And supply a water tank and a pump and water connectors?

    Heat pipes don't need that. A closed system doesn't need a water-tank,
    and lots of top-end computer coolers do rely on circulating water.

    My gadget is cheap and easy and works.


    A 3-D printed structure would have offered more options.

    Again, massive losses.

    Imagined massive losses.

    Certainly imagined. Please make a 3D fabbed inductor and measure its Q
    and report back to us.


    My inductor is cheap and simple and works.

    It's hand-wound, so it looks cheaper than it is.

    This Pockels Cell driver is maybe 1/20 the volume of competitors' and
    uses a few per cent of the power. The inductor is a detail.

    Most drivers dissipate

    F * C * V^2

    in the driver itself, but it should take zero energy to charge and
    discharge a capacitor.

    If I get a gigantic order, I'll have a coil winding company make them
    and retire the Sharpie.

    Or come up with a more sensible solution?

    More sensible than winding an inductor from magnet wire?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 08:36:53 2024
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs >>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL
    (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap
    is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near
    the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that
    the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The
    Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape,
    with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    That's another function of the gap-pad material. And the flattish part
    of the circular solenoid windings make a big contact area into the
    pads, for more heat transfer.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may
    be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    It would be cool is the bottom of the windings were actually flat, a
    square or elliptical winding, for more heat transfer area.



    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 08:45:10 2024
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 17:52:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 2/09/2024 12:49 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    If the FR4 losses matter, the printed circuit board under the coil would >darken, which the customers wouldn't like. The Cambridge Instruments
    0.5nsec beam blanker did that so we swapped to a different substrate
    that didn't discolour.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom,
    with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of
    the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    It's a sawtooth so it has quite a lot of higher harmonic components with
    even thinner skin depths. Baxandall's preference for sine waves has >incidental advantages.

    The turns are wide and flat, which reduces the effect of skin dept.
    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.

    https://www.coilcraft.com/getmedia/55a4b40a-2e02-4bf5-b0af-2ea5db75b6cf/1010vs.pdf

    There are five 1010VS parts, all rated at about 25A rms. You haven't >specified which one you used three of.

    That 25A rms isn't going to include any allowance for skin effect.

    They don't look as if there would be much cross-talk from one to the
    next. Making space for more parts might have been a better approach.

    With +/-20% tolerance on inductance, putting them in parallel wouldn't
    have been a good idea.

    Don't they have the same tolerance in series?

    In parallel, each would get 1/3 the current. But each would need to be
    9x the inductance. I suspect that's a wash, something fundamental
    going on.

    My coil opens itself up for a lot of air cooling, and bare copper can
    run pretty hot.



    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may
    be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind
    the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Inductors are a pain.

    Particularly when you don't think about what you doing.

    But it works. A big laser company buys them.

    Why don't you design a 1200 volt, 4 MHz pulse generator and we can
    discuss it here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 08:51:45 2024
    On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:02:34 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs >>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>>>>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>>customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL >>>>>(UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>>object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>>is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>>the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that >>>>the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The >>>>Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>>proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>>with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom,
    with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of
    the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may
    be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind
    the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to
    20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    That's past my pay grade. I wound coils until it worked. The cooling
    issues complicate things.

    How about Litz wire wound on a spiral-grooved aluminum nitride tube,
    with air blown inside maybe?


    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.


    Inductors are a pain.

    But useful. Or essential in some cases.

    Joe Gwinn

    We are lucky to have resistors and capacitors and inductors, linear
    and derivative and integral. There is no thermal equivalent of an
    inductor, which is why thermal systems are dynamically sloppy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 12:39:19 2024
    On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 08:36:53 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs >>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>>>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL
    (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap
    is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that
    the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The >>>Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    That's another function of the gap-pad material. And the flattish part
    of the circular solenoid windings make a big contact area into the
    pads, for more heat transfer.

    All good. Needs to be in the drawing.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may
    be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    It would be cool is the bottom of the windings were actually flat, a
    square or elliptical winding, for more heat transfer area.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/~/d-profile-rotary-shafts-5/?s=shafts%2Fshafts-2%7E%2Frotary-shafts-5%2Fdiameter%7E12-mm>

    This is what's easily available. If you make your own mandrels, they
    can be any shape. Make sure that at least one end has a index slot or
    radial hole, to make winding easier by allowing the clock angle of the
    mandrel easily fixed.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 12:47:24 2024
    On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 08:51:45 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 10:02:34 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs >>>>>><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>>>customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL >>>>>>(UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>>>object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>>>is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>>>the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that >>>>>the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The >>>>>Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>>>proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>>>with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat >>>conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom, >>>with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of >>>the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted. >>>That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may >>>>be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind >>>the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.
    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to
    20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    That's past my pay grade. I wound coils until it worked. The cooling
    issues complicate things.

    I'd compute it. The fundamental may not be the whole story.


    How about Litz wire wound on a spiral-grooved aluminum nitride tube,
    with air blown inside maybe?

    That could certainly work, but would be far more expensive that the
    plain coil currently used. I would conformal coat the assembly for
    thermal contact between wire and AlN tube. Best thermal story would
    be silicon-rubber conformal coating.


    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.


    Inductors are a pain.

    But useful. Or essential in some cases.

    For one use case, using a toroid with both supply leads (ort and back)
    threaded through the aperture allows one to measure the common current
    and the differential current (reverse one wire) with essentially
    infinite CMRR (needs shields), over a very wide dynamic range.


    Joe Gwinn

    We are lucky to have resistors and capacitors and inductors, linear
    and derivative and integral. There is no thermal equivalent of an
    inductor, which is why thermal systems are dynamically sloppy.

    Yes.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Mon Sep 2 14:57:39 2024
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 15:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>>> customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL >>>>>> (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>>> object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>>> is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>>> the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that >>>>> the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The
    Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>>> proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>>> with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom,
    with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of
    the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may >>>> be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind
    the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to
    20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.

    Lo these forty year gone, I had this RF gig that involved making a lot of
    VHF LC oscillatior and filter protos.

    I still design LC oscillators!


    We had a hand-cranked coil winder that had a good selection of cylindrical >steel mandrels with helical grooves to guide the wire, plus three or four >sheets with tables of measured values for single-layer coils of various >lengths. With a couple of training runs, one learned how hard to pull on
    the wire so that it would just spring free from the mandrel.

    That made it easy to make nice looking, high-Q coils for the inductance
    range of interest. Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Coilcraft makes a bunch of bare-naked RF inductors.

    We like this encapsulated part:

    https://www.coilcraft.com/en-us/products/rf/air-core-inductors/midi-spring/1812sms/?skuId=26054|26274

    What's surprising is that the "natural" tempco of a copper solenoid
    inductor runs around +120 ppm/degC, but this one is around +40. The
    plastic must compensate for the copper somehow.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 2 22:32:15 2024
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 15:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked. >>>>>>>>>
    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>>>> customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL >>>>>>> (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>>>> object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>>>> is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>>>> the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that >>>>>> the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The
    Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>>>> proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>>>> with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom, >>>> with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of >>>> the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may >>>>> be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind >>>> the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to
    20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.

    Lo these forty year gone, I had this RF gig that involved making a lot of
    VHF LC oscillatior and filter protos.

    I still design LC oscillators!


    We had a hand-cranked coil winder that had a good selection of cylindrical >> steel mandrels with helical grooves to guide the wire, plus three or four
    sheets with tables of measured values for single-layer coils of various
    lengths. With a couple of training runs, one learned how hard to pull on
    the wire so that it would just spring free from the mandrel.

    That made it easy to make nice looking, high-Q coils for the inductance
    range of interest. Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Coilcraft makes a bunch of bare-naked RF inductors.

    We like this encapsulated part:

    https://www.coilcraft.com/en-us/products/rf/air-core-inductors/midi-spring/1812sms/?skuId=26054|26274

    What's surprising is that the "natural" tempco of a copper solenoid
    inductor runs around +120 ppm/degC, but this one is around +40. The
    plastic must compensate for the copper somehow.





    Sounds awfully high.

    To about 1% accuracy (over most useful aspect ratios), the inductance of a single-layer coil is

    L(uH) = a**2 n**2 /(9a + 10b),

    Where a is the mean radius and b is the overall length, both in inches.

    If the thermal expansion is unconstrained, a and b vary together, so the TC
    of inductance of such a coil is the same as the CTE of copper, about 17
    ppm/K.

    A solid plastic form is strong enough to stretch the copper and increase
    the TCL to the CTE of the plastic.

    If the length only is constant, the TCL is increased, and for a short fat
    coil it’s nearly doubled.

    In the case of something like B&W Miniductor, which has fairly fine-pitched turns held by a few small axial stringers, the plastic stretches the length
    of the coil but leaves the radial expansion free.

    Because both a and b enter in the denominator, it’s possible to choose dimensions that make the TCL of a Miniductor or similar coil very nearly
    zero.

    A normal single layer coil has a TCL around +30 ppm. I’ve never measured
    one as bad as +120.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Sep 3 15:11:40 2024
    On 3/09/2024 1:31 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 17:13:59 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
    On 2/09/2024 6:32 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 02:20:42 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
    On 2/09/2024 12:09 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    And you don't simulate them either.

    Only when they matter.

    Simulation is - in part - about
    letting the math throw up unexpected effects that appear when you hook >>>> up a bunch of components. Knowing when it matter relies on the
    simulation inside your head.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    So you didn't read the data sheets carefully enough.

    Sure I did. They should have worked, based on the data sheets.

    Based on your understanding of the data sheet, which was obviously
    inadequate. It's revealing that you don't post links to the data sheets
    or specify the number that you relied on when you assumed that they
    ought to have worked.

    It's not a part
    that would usually be described as "surface mount". If you'd scraped the >>>> enamel off the bottom of the coil and soldered each turn down onto an
    isolated copper pad on the board, it probably would qualify as surface >>>> mount, and would have had better thermal contact with the board.

    I did that on the ends. I think the gap-pad works better thermally
    than soldering every turn to the board.

    Solder is metal, and has a higher conductivity than your gap-pad
    material. You can over-fill the joint, which would help.

    It wouldn't help much to conduct heat into a PCB pad. FR4 is a
    terrible heat conductor.

    That's where your gap-ad dumps the heat. It may be a terrible conductor
    (if a lot better than air) but it was clearly good enough for you.

    Have you ever used a surface-mount coil that soldered every turn to
    the board? Got a link?

    No. It's merely an obvious possibility.

    Ha.

    So not obvious to you.

    You might have had to make it as a sintered metal 3-D printed structure to >>>> get this to work - the wound coil looks a bit irregular.

    Losses would be crazy.

    What makes you think that? The fact that the part is sintered doesn't
    mean that you won't get close to solid metal electrical conductivity.

    Skin depth is about 30 microns here, and we need a smooth, homogenous, annealed surface. Ask a chemist.

    Ask a guy with a pulsed laser, who can melt the top 30 microns of the
    part for enough milliseconds for it flow into a smooth surface. I've
    always been puzzled why people haven't resumed silver plating RF parts
    when you can now fuse the surface electro-plated crystals into a
    continuous film of silver

    Lost wax casting could have worked too.

    And even you must concede that that wouldn't have been lossy.

    Impractical,

    Why?

    and cast copper is probably a worse conductor than annealed.

    So anneal it.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    That defines it diameter. Measuring that with a vernier caliper would
    give you a number you could document.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.

    If you'd wound it with copper tube you could have pumped water through >>>> the tube, or made it a heat pipe.

    And supply a water tank and a pump and water connectors?

    Heat pipes don't need that. A closed system doesn't need a water-tank,
    and lots of top-end computer coolers do rely on circulating water.

    My gadget is cheap and easy and works.

    But looks cheap. And a hand-wound coil is never easy.

    A 3-D printed structure would have offered more options.

    Again, massive losses.

    Imagined massive losses.

    Certainly imagined. Please make a 3D fabbed inductor and measure its Q
    and report back to us.

    If you'll pay for it, and the time I'd have to spend to dig out somebody
    to do it. Back when I was working I had access to people who would know somebody who would do it, but I moved back to Australia, and those
    people are less accessible (and some of them have died).

    My inductor is cheap and simple and works.

    It's hand-wound, so it looks cheaper than it is.

    This Pockels Cell driver is maybe 1/20 the volume of competitors' and
    uses a few per cent of the power. The inductor is a detail.

    But a crucial one.

    Most drivers dissipate

    F * C * V^2

    in the driver itself, but it should take zero energy to charge and
    discharge a capacitor.

    Sadly. capacitors can be lossy, and the current involved has flow
    through conductors which are resistive - more so when the skin effect
    kicks in.

    If I get a gigantic order, I'll have a coil winding company make them
    and retire the Sharpie.

    Or come up with a more sensible solution?

    More sensible than winding an inductor from magnet wire?

    Why do you think that the Coilcraft inductors were wound with flat wire?

    The skin effect means that most of your magnet wire is unused.

    With flat wire, you also have more surface area to couple the wire to
    the air you are relying on to cool it.

    From a practical point of view, changing the layout to accomodate
    enough of the Coilcraft parts to dissipate the heat would give you a
    much tidier-looking product, if marginally bulkier.

    If what you've got has 5% of the volume of its competition, you've got
    room to do that.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Sep 3 15:20:47 2024
    On 3/09/2024 1:45 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 17:52:09 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 2/09/2024 12:49 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    <snip>

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    If the FR4 losses matter, the printed circuit board under the coil would
    darken, which the customers wouldn't like. The Cambridge Instruments
    0.5nsec beam blanker did that so we swapped to a different substrate
    that didn't discolour.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom,
    with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of
    the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    It's a sawtooth so it has quite a lot of higher harmonic components with
    even thinner skin depths. Baxandall's preference for sine waves has
    incidental advantages.

    The turns are wide and flat, which reduces the effect of skin dept.
    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.

    https://www.coilcraft.com/getmedia/55a4b40a-2e02-4bf5-b0af-2ea5db75b6cf/1010vs.pdf

    There are five 1010VS parts, all rated at about 25A rms. You haven't
    specified which one you used three of.

    That 25A rms isn't going to include any allowance for skin effect.

    They don't look as if there would be much cross-talk from one to the
    next. Making space for more parts might have been a better approach.

    With +/-20% tolerance on inductance, putting them in parallel wouldn't
    have been a good idea.

    Don't they have the same tolerance in series?

    When they are in series, the same current passes through each one.

    When they are in parallel the lower inductance parts would carry up to
    40% more current and have to dissipate up to twice as much heat.

    In parallel, each would get 1/3 the current. But each would need to be
    9x the inductance. I suspect that's a wash, something fundamental
    going on.

    My coil opens itself up for a lot of air cooling, and bare copper can
    run pretty hot.

    And melt the solder holding it in place?

    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may >>>> be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind
    the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Inductors are a pain.

    Particularly when you don't think about what you doing.

    But it works. A big laser company buys them.

    Why don't you design a 1200 volt, 4 MHz pulse generator and we can
    discuss it here.

    Why would I bother? I wouldn't get paid for it. More to the point, I'd
    need a lot more information than 1200V, 4 MHz and 25A peak to peak, and
    your customer wouldn't be happy if you broadcast that much detail.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Sep 3 15:30:13 2024
    On 3/09/2024 7:57 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 15:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked. >>>>>>>>>
    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>>>> customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL >>>>>>> (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>>>> object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>>>> is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>>>> the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that >>>>>> the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The
    Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>>>> proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>>>> with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom, >>>> with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of >>>> the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may >>>>> be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind >>>> the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to
    20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.

    Lo these forty year gone, I had this RF gig that involved making a lot of
    VHF LC oscillatior and filter protos.

    I still design LC oscillators!

    You may put them together, but it sounds as if you evolve them rather
    than design them. And you'd have your own coil-winding gear if you did
    much of it. As Phil did.

    We had a hand-cranked coil winder that had a good selection of cylindrical >> steel mandrels with helical grooves to guide the wire, plus three or four
    sheets with tables of measured values for single-layer coils of various
    lengths. With a couple of training runs, one learned how hard to pull on
    the wire so that it would just spring free from the mandrel.

    That made it easy to make nice looking, high-Q coils for the inductance
    range of interest. Good Medicine.

    At George Kent in Luton (1973-76) I got to wind my own small-signal transformers. At Cambridge Instruments (1982-1991) I had to ask the coil-winders on the shop floor to do it for me.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Wed Sep 4 07:41:38 2024
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 22:32:15 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 15:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked. >>>>>>>>>>
    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>>>>> customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL >>>>>>>> (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>>>>> object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>>>>> is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>>>>> the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that >>>>>>> the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The >>>>>>> Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>>>>> proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>>>>> with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom, >>>>> with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of >>>>> the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted. >>>>> That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may >>>>>> be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind >>>>> the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to >>>> 20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.

    Lo these forty year gone, I had this RF gig that involved making a lot of >>> VHF LC oscillatior and filter protos.

    I still design LC oscillators!


    We had a hand-cranked coil winder that had a good selection of cylindrical >>> steel mandrels with helical grooves to guide the wire, plus three or four >>> sheets with tables of measured values for single-layer coils of various
    lengths. With a couple of training runs, one learned how hard to pull on >>> the wire so that it would just spring free from the mandrel.

    That made it easy to make nice looking, high-Q coils for the inductance
    range of interest. Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Coilcraft makes a bunch of bare-naked RF inductors.

    We like this encapsulated part:

    https://www.coilcraft.com/en-us/products/rf/air-core-inductors/midi-spring/1812sms/?skuId=26054|26274

    What's surprising is that the "natural" tempco of a copper solenoid
    inductor runs around +120 ppm/degC, but this one is around +40. The
    plastic must compensate for the copper somehow.





    Sounds awfully high.

    To about 1% accuracy (over most useful aspect ratios), the inductance of a >single-layer coil is

    L(uH) = a**2 n**2 /(9a + 10b),

    Where a is the mean radius and b is the overall length, both in inches.

    If the thermal expansion is unconstrained, a and b vary together, so the TC >of inductance of such a coil is the same as the CTE of copper, about 17 >ppm/K.

    A solid plastic form is strong enough to stretch the copper and increase
    the TCL to the CTE of the plastic.

    If the length only is constant, the TCL is increased, and for a short fat >coil its nearly doubled.

    In the case of something like B&W Miniductor, which has fairly fine-pitched >turns held by a few small axial stringers, the plastic stretches the length >of the coil but leaves the radial expansion free.

    Because both a and b enter in the denominator, its possible to choose >dimensions that make the TCL of a Miniductor or similar coil very nearly >zero.

    A normal single layer coil has a TCL around +30 ppm. Ive never measured
    one as bad as +120.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    I posted a followup to my tc comment, but sometimes usenet posts
    disappear.

    Right, the L of a loop goes about as d-squared, so the +17 PPM TCE of
    copper should make L increase at maybe 35 PPM.

    We have measured much higher tempcos of small inductors used in our
    triggered LC oscillators. That may be a secondary effect of
    encapsulation or something. I was pleased that the Coilcraft Midi
    parts were about +40 and apparently very stable.

    We have used some surface-mount coils that not only had awful tc's,
    but their L would creep over months as the potting stuff apparently
    flowed. Annealing helped.

    Inductors are a pain.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 3 11:39:41 2024
    On Mon, 02 Sep 2024 14:57:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 15:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked. >>>>>>>>>
    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>>>> customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL >>>>>>> (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>>>> object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>>>> is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>>>> the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that >>>>>> the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The
    Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>>>> proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>>>> with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom, >>>> with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of >>>> the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted.
    That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may >>>>> be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind >>>> the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to
    20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.

    Lo these forty year gone, I had this RF gig that involved making a lot of >>VHF LC oscillatior and filter protos.

    I still design LC oscillators!


    We had a hand-cranked coil winder that had a good selection of cylindrical >>steel mandrels with helical grooves to guide the wire, plus three or four >>sheets with tables of measured values for single-layer coils of various >>lengths. With a couple of training runs, one learned how hard to pull on >>the wire so that it would just spring free from the mandrel.

    That made it easy to make nice looking, high-Q coils for the inductance >>range of interest. Good Medicine.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Coilcraft makes a bunch of bare-naked RF inductors.

    We like this encapsulated part:

    https://www.coilcraft.com/en-us/products/rf/air-core-inductors/midi-spring/1812sms/?skuId=26054|26274

    What's surprising is that the "natural" tempco of a copper solenoid
    inductor runs around +120 ppm/degC, but this one is around +40. The
    plastic must compensate for the copper somehow.



    Actually, the tce of copper is only about 17 PPM, so a loop should
    increase L by about 35 PPM/deg C. I don't know why we've seen lots of
    inductors in the +100 range.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 4 07:50:11 2024
    On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 15:30:13 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 3/09/2024 7:57 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 15:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked. >>>>>>>>>>
    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>>>>> customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL >>>>>>>> (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>>>>> object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>>>>> is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>>>>> the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that >>>>>>> the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too.

    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The >>>>>>> Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>>>>> proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>>>>> with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too
    close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom, >>>>> with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of >>>>> the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted. >>>>> That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have
    been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may >>>>>> be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind >>>>> the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of
    12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to >>>> 20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the
    most heating?

    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland
    to be able to replicate the part without your help.

    Lo these forty year gone, I had this RF gig that involved making a lot of >>> VHF LC oscillatior and filter protos.

    I still design LC oscillators!

    You may put them together, but it sounds as if you evolve them rather
    than design them. And you'd have your own coil-winding gear if you did
    much of it. As Phil did.

    Design, simulate, build, test, evolve. That's how engineering usually
    works. At the bleeding edge of performance, unpredictable higher-order
    effects happen. Sometimes whacking the competition depends on
    understanding and taming those effects. That's more fun to me than
    pushing a bunch of equations around.



    We had a hand-cranked coil winder that had a good selection of cylindrical >>> steel mandrels with helical grooves to guide the wire, plus three or four >>> sheets with tables of measured values for single-layer coils of various
    lengths. With a couple of training runs, one learned how hard to pull on >>> the wire so that it would just spring free from the mandrel.

    My Sharpie is a nice red marker when it's not winding coils.


    That made it easy to make nice looking, high-Q coils for the inductance
    range of interest. Good Medicine.

    At George Kent in Luton (1973-76) I got to wind my own small-signal >transformers. At Cambridge Instruments (1982-1991) I had to ask the >coil-winders on the shop floor to do it for me.

    I used to have toroid winding machine. That's not actually a rational
    thing to do.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Sep 5 16:54:47 2024
    On 5/09/2024 12:50 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 3 Sep 2024 15:30:13 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 3/09/2024 7:57 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Mon, 2 Sep 2024 15:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> wrote:
    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 19:49:39 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 17:43:32 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 13:17:03 -0700, john larkin
    <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:

    On Sun, 01 Sep 2024 15:53:46 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:55:58 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>: >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually >>>>>>>>>>> more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver, >>>>>>>>>>> after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked. >>>>>>>>>>>
    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully >>>>>>>>>>> reserved.

    It better have a regular calibration schedule, or your semiconductor >>>>>>>>>> customers may give you the raised eyebrow.

    Hmm. To be overly serious: With traceability to NIST (US) or NPL >>>>>>>>> (UK) or the like.

    The trend in standards is to eliminate standards tied to a physical >>>>>>>>> object.

    I have a Sharpie in hand. The barrel that is not covered by the cap >>>>>>>>> is a truncated cone, being 11.0 mm at the blunt end and 12.32 mm near >>>>>>>>> the cap, 73 mm away.

    Mine is pretty cylindrical for the length of the coil. I expect that >>>>>>>> the operator's (ie, my) applied tension affects the radius too. >>>>>>>
    Most likely.


    That inductor sees 25 amps p-p, roughly a sawtooth, at 4 MHz. The >>>>>>>> Coilcraft parts that I tried all smoked, I guess from skin effect and >>>>>>>> proximity effect.


    Actually, all that's needed is to specify an ideal geometric shape, >>>>>>>>> with tolerances, in the formal documentation.

    Joe Gwinn

    I'll have someone start on a SolidWorks model.

    I bet you need the standoff, so the lossy FR4 material isn't too >>>>>>> close. That should be in the requirements as well.

    The turns squish down into the gap-pad gunk, which is an OK heat
    conductor. The PCB under the pad is a big copper pour, top and bottom, >>>>>> with a zillion thermal vias. There's more gap-pad on the underside of >>>>>> the board to dump heat into the baseplate.

    At 4 MHz, skin depth is 32 microns, so most of the copper is wasted. >>>>>> That's why it gets so hot.

    I tried three of the Coilcraft 1010VS parts in series, but they
    smoked, probably skin+proximity effect. Maybe parallel would have >>>>>> been better.


    I'd specify the coil dimensions, not the mandrel dimensions, which may >>>>>>> be provided as a helpful suggestion only.

    Joe Gwinn

    I could have a mandrel machined or 3D printed, to more accurately wind >>>>>> the inductor. The improvement would be mostly cosmetic.

    Or choose a 12mm OD mandrel, and adjust elsewhere. The advantage of >>>>> 12mm is that it's a common size. so just buy the rod and use it.

    .<https://www.mcmaster.com/products/shafts/shafts-2~/rotary-shafts-5/diameter~12-mm/>

    Actually, the requirement is a certain inductance while handling a
    4-MHz sawtooth at 25 Amps (p-p), so the frequency band is roughly 4 to >>>>> 20 MHz, to cover the first five harmonics Which harmonic causes the >>>>> most heating?

    The dimensions et al are the construction details needed for Highland >>>>> to be able to replicate the part without your help.

    Lo these forty year gone, I had this RF gig that involved making a lot of >>>> VHF LC oscillatior and filter protos.

    I still design LC oscillators!

    You may put them together, but it sounds as if you evolve them rather
    than design them. And you'd have your own coil-winding gear if you did
    much of it. As Phil did.

    Design, simulate, build, test, evolve. That's how engineering usually
    works.

    Serious engineering goes more like design, simulate, redesign,simulate
    again, build, test, modify-evolve, retest, design, simulate, build,
    test, ship.

    At the bleeding edge of performance, unpredictable higher-order
    effects happen.

    As if you were ever there.

    Sometimes whacking the competition depends on
    understanding and taming those effects. That's more fun to me than
    pushing a bunch of equations around.

    But if you don't push the equations around you don't get to understand
    the effects properly, no matter how proud you are of your "intuition".

    We had a hand-cranked coil winder that had a good selection of cylindrical >>>> steel mandrels with helical grooves to guide the wire, plus three or four >>>> sheets with tables of measured values for single-layer coils of various >>>> lengths. With a couple of training runs, one learned how hard to pull on >>>> the wire so that it would just spring free from the mandrel.

    My Sharpie is a nice red marker when it's not winding coils.

    But it is still a ppor excuse for a coilwinder.

    That made it easy to make nice looking, high-Q coils for the inductance >>>> range of interest. Good Medicine.

    At George Kent in Luton (1973-76) I got to wind my own small-signal
    transformers. At Cambridge Instruments (1982-1991) I had to ask the
    coil-winders on the shop floor to do it for me.

    I used to have toroid winding machine. That's not actually a rational
    thing to do.

    It's entirely rational if you need special purpose toroids - perhaps non-progressively wound (so they really do have zero external field).

    It's a mechanically complicated device - not that I've ever seen one -
    and presumably a pest to keep working.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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  • From piglet@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Sep 9 19:51:52 2024
    On 01/09/2024 3:09 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to
    make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today
    than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.




    That sharpie formed coil looks like the turn-to-turn air-spacing is done
    by eyeball? Can you find a bolt or screw with right pitch and diameter
    to make winding easier?

    piglet

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to piglet on Mon Sep 9 22:24:23 2024
    On 9/9/24 20:51, piglet wrote:
    On 01/09/2024 3:09 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill
    Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice
    than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work
    when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up
    stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel
    capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.




    That sharpie formed coil looks like the turn-to-turn air-spacing is done
    by eyeball? Can you find a bolt or screw with right pitch and diameter
    to make winding easier?

    piglet


    It /does/ look a bit messy.

    To get nice even spacing in hand-wound coils, I would pull on
    the wire until it gave just a bit, then wind it tightly spaced
    on a mandrel of appropriate size and finally, stick a toothpick,
    or something like that, transversely through the turns, 'screwing'
    it from one end to the other. My coils ended up looking perfectly
    neat.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Mon Sep 9 22:15:50 2024
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    [...]
    To get nice even spacing in hand-wound coils, I would pull on
    the wire until it gave just a bit, then wind it tightly spaced
    on a mandrel of appropriate size and finally, stick a toothpick,
    or something like that, transversely through the turns, 'screwing'
    it from one end to the other. My coils ended up looking perfectly
    neat.

    Another method is to wind two wires tightly side-by-side to get the
    correct spacing, then unwind one of them.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 9 14:27:38 2024
    On Mon, 9 Sep 2024 19:51:52 +0100, piglet <erichpwagner@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 01/09/2024 3:09 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill Sloman >>>> <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice than it >>>>> is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are
    doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.




    That sharpie formed coil looks like the turn-to-turn air-spacing is done
    by eyeball? Can you find a bolt or screw with right pitch and diameter
    to make winding easier?

    piglet

    I recursively used another Sharpie to make some tic marks, to space
    the turns.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Mon Sep 9 14:40:18 2024
    On Mon, 9 Sep 2024 22:24:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 9/9/24 20:51, piglet wrote:
    On 01/09/2024 3:09 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 17:45:46 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 30/08/2024 2:21 am, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 30 Aug 2024 00:43:39 +1000) it happened Bill
    Sloman
    <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in <vaq1f2$jdj$1@dont-email.me>:

    It's lot easier and quicker to bread-board a circuit in LTSpice
    than it
    is to wire up a test circuit, but what that means is that you need to >>>>>> make fewer real circuits and they are a lot more likely to work
    when tested.

    That, on it's own, is enough to explain why labs look different today >>>>>> than they did in the dark ages.

    All it explains is boeings falling apart and astronuts ending up
    stuck at the ISS
    and no moonlanding from the US, not even a probe.
    Slimulations are _not_ realty and never will be.

    But they can capture useful parts of reality, if you know what you are >>>> doing.

    John Larkin's simulated inductors tend not to have any parallel
    capacitance.

    The trick is to know when it matters. ESR and core loss are usually
    more important.

    I designed this surface-mount inductor for my Pockels Cell driver,
    after several tries using commercial parts. They all smoked.

    It's wound on a specially marked Sharpie pen that we have carefully
    reserved.

    https://www.highlandtechnology.com/Product/T850

    The grey gap-pad gives it some extra cooling. The board has lots of
    thermal vias down to the water-cooled baseplate.




    That sharpie formed coil looks like the turn-to-turn air-spacing is done
    by eyeball? Can you find a bolt or screw with right pitch and diameter
    to make winding easier?

    piglet


    It /does/ look a bit messy.

    To get nice even spacing in hand-wound coils, I would pull on
    the wire until it gave just a bit, then wind it tightly spaced
    on a mandrel of appropriate size and finally, stick a toothpick,
    or something like that, transversely through the turns, 'screwing'
    it from one end to the other. My coils ended up looking perfectly
    neat.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Stretching magnet wire makes it beautifully straight, but wrecks the
    annealing and somewhat increases the resistance. Beauty over function.

    My inductor is wound from #14 AWG, which takes some muscle to pull
    straight. Use horses maybe.

    There's actually a drawing!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Joerg@21:1/5 to Martin Rid on Mon Sep 9 14:57:57 2024
    On 8/27/24 7:40 AM, Martin Rid wrote:
    Anyone own the gds-1202b ?

    Any good?

    $350 at tequipment

    Cheers


    Can't comment on that one but I have a much older 4ch 200MHz scope from
    Instek, the GDS-2204. I bought it because it had less noise and less EMI
    than a similar Tektronix back then, plus way more memory, at half the price.

    Long story short, I am happy with it but the software is quite buggy. It
    also drifts a bit in the baseline but for an RF guy that doesn't matter
    much. Remoting it from a lab bench PC always worked well and made the documentation job easier than USB-stick jockeying.

    --
    Regards, Joerg

    http://www.analogconsultants.com/

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