Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had trouble with some relays going to
an indeterminate state if the power to the coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/Reset coils
to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage thread and
I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted they can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for decades. They don't turn up on eBay either.
Depending on the number (and form) of the contacts being used, you
could design a little SR latch on a board, driving a single relay
(to give you volt-free contacts) with the appropriate number (and
form) of contacts.
There are two DPDT relays that change state together. 8A non-inductive at 24VDC
contacts.
One possible complication would be if these were used to maintain state
in a nonvolatile manner -- adding that to your circuit would require
a nonvolatile store.
Ah, yes these MUST be non-volatile. The relay must stay set/reset until the mechanical operation resets it, otherwise fuses blow after the gears jam. Power
interruptions can't change that state...
Of course, the "easy" way is a tiny 6 pin MCU with a FET driving the
relay... persistent state could be maintained in FLASH.
Now you are just getting fancy! (ducking)
On 8/26/2024 10:52 AM, John Robertson wrote:
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to replace >> old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style jukeboxes with more >> modern two coil latching relays but have had trouble with some relays going to
an indeterminate state if the power to the coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/Reset coils
to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage thread and
I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in series with the >> windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted they can't
be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for decades. They don't turn
up on eBay either.
You're not trying to be "genuine"... so, why dot replace the relay with
a hybrid *circuit* that emulates a latching relay?
[No idea what yours are like; I used to encounter them in pin setters
("ten pin") -- two coils mounted on a frame at right angles to each
other. Each coil being a DPDT relay with their armatures mechanically >interlocked. Nothing to prevent you from energizing BOTH coils except
the actual design]
Depending on the number (and form) of the contacts being used, you
could design a little SR latch on a board, driving a single relay
(to give you volt-free contacts) with the appropriate number (and
form) of contacts.
One possible complication would be if these were used to maintain state
in a nonvolatile manner -- adding that to your circuit would require
a nonvolatile store.
Of course, the "easy" way is a tiny 6 pin MCU with a FET driving the
relay... persistent state could be maintained in FLASH.
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to
replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had trouble
with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power to the
coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/Reset coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage
thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in
series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted they
can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for decades. They don't turn up on eBay either.
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to
replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had trouble
with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power to the
coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/Reset coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage
thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in
series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted they
can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for decades. They don't turn up on eBay either.
Thanks,
John :-#)#
John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> wrote:
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to
replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had trouble
with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power to the
coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/Reset
coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage
thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in
series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted they
can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for decades. They
don't turn up on eBay either.
Two opposed solenoids and an arm on the spindle of a rotary switch.
On 2024-08-26 2:09 p.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/26/2024 10:52 AM, John Robertson wrote:
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to
replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had
trouble with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power
to the coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/
Reset coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current
available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage
thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in
series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted
they can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for
decades. They don't turn up on eBay either.
You're not trying to be "genuine"... so, why dot replace the relay with
a hybrid *circuit* that emulates a latching relay?
[No idea what yours are like; I used to encounter them in pin setters
("ten pin") -- two coils mounted on a frame at right angles to each
other. Each coil being a DPDT relay with their armatures mechanically
interlocked. Nothing to prevent you from energizing BOTH coils except
the actual design]
Yes, this sounds the same.
Depending on the number (and form) of the contacts being used, you
could design a little SR latch on a board, driving a single relay
(to give you volt-free contacts) with the appropriate number (and
form) of contacts.
There are two DPDT relays that change state together. 8A non-inductive
at 24VDC contacts.
One possible complication would be if these were used to maintain state
in a nonvolatile manner -- adding that to your circuit would require
a nonvolatile store.
Ah, yes these MUST be non-volatile. The relay must stay set/reset until
the mechanical operation resets it, otherwise fuses blow after the gears
jam. Power interruptions can't change that state...
Of course, the "easy" way is a tiny 6 pin MCU with a FET driving the
relay... persistent state could be maintained in FLASH.
Now you are just getting fancy! (ducking)
John :-#(#
John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> wrote:
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to
replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had trouble
with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power to the
coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/Reset
coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage
thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in
series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted they
can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for decades. They
don't turn up on eBay either.
Thanks,
John :-#)#
Millions of latching relays are still made. If the problem is under
voltages causing erratic activity I guess a driver with threshold detection using LM339s or TL431s or whatever might be possible. Either to trigger
dual coil latch relays or single coil bipolar latch relays.
Can you give numbers, like correct coil voltage and the troublesome
incorrect voltages ?
Something as simple as series SCR with zener anode to gate might be enough?
On 2024-08-27, Liz Tuddenham <liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote:
John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> wrote:
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to
replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had trouble >>> with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power to the
coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/Reset >>> coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage
thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in
series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted they
can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for decades. They >>> don't turn up on eBay either.
Two opposed solenoids and an arm on the spindle of a rotary switch.
Or on an bank of opposed microswitches. I've seen that done except
the solenoide were a telephone ringer hammer driver.
John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> wrote:
On 2024-08-26 2:09 p.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/26/2024 10:52 AM, John Robertson wrote:
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to
replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had
trouble with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power
to the coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/
Reset coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current
available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage
thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in
series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted
they can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for
decades. They don't turn up on eBay either.
You're not trying to be "genuine"... so, why dot replace the relay with
a hybrid *circuit* that emulates a latching relay?
[No idea what yours are like; I used to encounter them in pin setters
("ten pin") -- two coils mounted on a frame at right angles to each
other. Each coil being a DPDT relay with their armatures mechanically
interlocked. Nothing to prevent you from energizing BOTH coils except
the actual design]
Yes, this sounds the same.
Depending on the number (and form) of the contacts being used, you
could design a little SR latch on a board, driving a single relay
(to give you volt-free contacts) with the appropriate number (and
form) of contacts.
There are two DPDT relays that change state together. 8A non-inductive
at 24VDC contacts.
One possible complication would be if these were used to maintain state
in a nonvolatile manner -- adding that to your circuit would require
a nonvolatile store.
Ah, yes these MUST be non-volatile. The relay must stay set/reset until
the mechanical operation resets it, otherwise fuses blow after the gears
jam. Power interruptions can't change that state...
Of course, the "easy" way is a tiny 6 pin MCU with a FET driving the
relay... persistent state could be maintained in FLASH.
Now you are just getting fancy! (ducking)
John :-#(#
I’d be cautious about any solution that separates the physical state of the >switch from the logical state.
How about a nice small latching relay controlling a triac or SSR? You can
do the UVLO function with a MAX809 or something like that to gate the
supply to the relay coil.
On 2024-08-27 2:44 a.m., piglet wrote:
John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> wrote:
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to
replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had trouble >>> with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power to the
coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/Reset >>> coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage
thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in
series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted they
can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for decades. They >>> don't turn up on eBay either.
Thanks,
John :-#)#
Millions of latching relays are still made. If the problem is under
voltages causing erratic activity I guess a driver with threshold detection >> using LM339s or TL431s or whatever might be possible. Either to trigger
dual coil latch relays or single coil bipolar latch relays.
The problem is switch noise.
Can you give numbers, like correct coil voltage and the troublesome
incorrect voltages ?
Correct coil voltage is 24VDC.
Modern latching relays don't have a mechanical interlock - at least I
haven't seen any - like the original Guardians. So if the microswitch to
trip the relay is noisy then the modern latch relays go into a middle >indeterminate state and then we get jammed gears - blown fuses.
Something as simple as series SCR with zener anode to gate might be enough? >>
Yes, something like that may work, I'll have to post the schematic of a >typical interlock relay when I have some time. Whatever is figured out
has to not allow an indeterminate state.
On 2024-08-27 7:40 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:02:37 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> wrote:
On 2024-08-26 2:09 p.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/26/2024 10:52 AM, John Robertson wrote:
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to >>>>>> replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had
trouble with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power >>>>>> to the coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/ >>>>>> Reset coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current
available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage >>>>>> thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in >>>>>> series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted >>>>>> they can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for
decades. They don't turn up on eBay either.
You're not trying to be "genuine"... so, why dot replace the relay with >>>>> a hybrid *circuit* that emulates a latching relay?
[No idea what yours are like; I used to encounter them in pin setters >>>>> ("ten pin") -- two coils mounted on a frame at right angles to each
other. Each coil being a DPDT relay with their armatures mechanically >>>>> interlocked. Nothing to prevent you from energizing BOTH coils except >>>>> the actual design]
Yes, this sounds the same.
Depending on the number (and form) of the contacts being used, you
could design a little SR latch on a board, driving a single relay
(to give you volt-free contacts) with the appropriate number (and
form) of contacts.
There are two DPDT relays that change state together. 8A non-inductive >>>> at 24VDC contacts.
One possible complication would be if these were used to maintain state >>>>> in a nonvolatile manner -- adding that to your circuit would require >>>>> a nonvolatile store.
Ah, yes these MUST be non-volatile. The relay must stay set/reset until >>>> the mechanical operation resets it, otherwise fuses blow after the gears >>>> jam. Power interruptions can't change that state...
Of course, the "easy" way is a tiny 6 pin MCU with a FET driving the >>>>> relay... persistent state could be maintained in FLASH.
Now you are just getting fancy! (ducking)
John :-#(#
I’d be cautious about any solution that separates the physical state of the >>> switch from the logical state.
How about a nice small latching relay controlling a triac or SSR? You can >>> do the UVLO function with a MAX809 or something like that to gate the
supply to the relay coil.
Or a small latching relay controlling a big ole relay?
We like the
FUJITSU FTR-B3GB4.5Z-B10
Interesting that you reverse the coil polarity to release the single coil.
On 2024-08-27 7:40 a.m., john larkin wrote:
On Tue, 27 Aug 2024 14:02:37 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> wrote:
On 2024-08-26 2:09 p.m., Don Y wrote:
On 8/26/2024 10:52 AM, John Robertson wrote:
Anyone have experience with dual coil latching relays? I'm trying to >>>>>> replace old (1950s) Guardian latch relays as used in 1950s style
jukeboxes with more modern two coil latching relays but have had
trouble with some relays going to an indeterminate state if the power >>>>>> to the coil is below optimum.
What I actually need to do is a circuit that only allows the Latch/ >>>>>> Reset coils to trip when there is sufficient voltage and current
available...
This somewhat plays into the discussion on DC relay latching voltage >>>>>> thread and I'm wondering if the Zener diode across the windings or in >>>>>> series with the windings might help my design.
As for the old original relays, the contacts are getting so pitted >>>>>> they can't be saved and Guardian hasn't made this coil assy for
decades. They don't turn up on eBay either.
You're not trying to be "genuine"... so, why dot replace the relay with >>>>> a hybrid *circuit* that emulates a latching relay?
[No idea what yours are like; I used to encounter them in pin setters >>>>> ("ten pin") -- two coils mounted on a frame at right angles to each
other. Each coil being a DPDT relay with their armatures mechanically >>>>> interlocked. Nothing to prevent you from energizing BOTH coils except >>>>> the actual design]
Yes, this sounds the same.
Depending on the number (and form) of the contacts being used, you
could design a little SR latch on a board, driving a single relay
(to give you volt-free contacts) with the appropriate number (and
form) of contacts.
There are two DPDT relays that change state together. 8A non-inductive >>>> at 24VDC contacts.
One possible complication would be if these were used to maintain state >>>>> in a nonvolatile manner -- adding that to your circuit would require >>>>> a nonvolatile store.
Ah, yes these MUST be non-volatile. The relay must stay set/reset until >>>> the mechanical operation resets it, otherwise fuses blow after the gears >>>> jam. Power interruptions can't change that state...
Of course, the "easy" way is a tiny 6 pin MCU with a FET driving the >>>>> relay... persistent state could be maintained in FLASH.
Now you are just getting fancy! (ducking)
John :-#(#
I’d be cautious about any solution that separates the physical state of the >>> switch from the logical state.
How about a nice small latching relay controlling a triac or SSR? You can >>> do the UVLO function with a MAX809 or something like that to gate the
supply to the relay coil.
Or a small latching relay controlling a big ole relay?
We like the
FUJITSU FTR-B3GB4.5Z-B10
Interesting that you reverse the coil polarity to release the single coil.
Gives me other ideas on solving the problem - use a small (2A contacts)
dual coil latching relay to drive a bigger relay. The small relay won't
be bothered as much by switch noise as the current required is much less
so is unlikely to get into an illegal state. Will read the product
literature on these and see what comes up as a good unit.
Like I don't have enough projects!
John :-#)#
T24gMjAyNC0wOC0yNyA3OjQwIGEubS4sIGpvaG4gbGFya2luIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBPbiBUdWUs >IDI3IEF1ZyAyMDI0IDE0OjAyOjM3IC0wMDAwIChVVEMpLCBQaGlsIEhvYmJzDQo+IDxwY2Ro
John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> writes:
T24gMjAyNC0wOC0yNyA3OjQwIGEubS4sIGpvaG4gbGFya2luIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBPbiBUdWUs
IDI3IEF1ZyAyMDI0IDE0OjAyOjM3IC0wMDAwIChVVEMpLCBQaGlsIEhvYmJzDQo+IDxwY2Ro
What's with this dreck?
John Robertson <jrr@flippers.com> writes:
T24gMjAyNC0wOC0yNyA3OjQwIGEubS4sIGpvaG4gbGFya2luIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBPbiBUdWUs
IDI3IEF1ZyAyMDI0IDE0OjAyOjM3IC0wMDAwIChVVEMpLCBQaGlsIEhvYmJzDQo+IDxwY2Ro
What's with this dreck?
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