• About WiFi7

    From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 22 11:50:56 2024
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 22 08:06:33 2024
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 11:50:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    About WiFi7 >https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/

    Some day we won't have cell towers or wifi or cable modems or fiber to
    the premises, just one universal wireless system for everything. Data
    transport is a mess now.

    I just opened a new engineering office. I had to get an internet
    provider (we went with a MonkeyBrains dish on the roof), a 10-port PoE
    switch, a mild nightmare of local interconnect and CAT5 wiring to
    various offices, a wifi router, and all sorts of plywood and shelves.
    Envision treks to Loews.

    Barbaric.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Aug 22 13:09:56 2024
    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va78n1$1ifd7$1@solani.org...
    About WiFi7 https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this? https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/


    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to All on Thu Aug 22 13:17:13 2024
    "john larkin" <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in message news:mikecjlu0negpkia8e5i18u946l0n99qar@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 11:50:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    About WiFi7 >>https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/

    Some day we won't have cell towers or wifi or cable modems or fiber to
    the premises, just one universal wireless system for everything.

    Where will the other end of the wireless link to/from your device be?

    Data
    transport is a mess now.

    I just opened a new engineering office. I had to get an internet
    provider (we went with a MonkeyBrains dish on the roof)

    Not all of us live in places where it never snows.
    Heavy rain can cause issues.

    , a 10-port PoE
    switch, a mild nightmare of local interconnect and CAT5 wiring

    I'd have used CAT6

    to
    various offices, a wifi router,

    I'd have used a business class firewall.
    https://www.pfsense.org/ works well for me.
    I can go anywhere and use my own network as if I was there.

    and all sorts of plywood and shelves.
    Envision treks to Loews.

    Barbaric.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Thu Aug 22 13:31:24 2024
    On 8/22/2024 10:09 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    I use a Cisco 2802E (WiFi 6) to connect the instrumentation/interfaces in
    the car to the house. Undoubtedly overkill... but, why use lead when gold
    will suffice?

    (This, of course, because wires won't work! :> )

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 23 05:55:09 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 08:06:33 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mikecjlu0negpkia8e5i18u946l0n99qar@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 11:50:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    About WiFi7 >>https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-a
    nd-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/

    Some day we won't have cell towers or wifi or cable modems or fiber to
    the premises, just one universal wireless system for everything. Data >transport is a mess now.

    I just opened a new engineering office. I had to get an internet
    provider (we went with a MonkeyBrains dish on the roof), a 10-port PoE >switch, a mild nightmare of local interconnect and CAT5 wiring to
    various offices, a wifi router, and all sorts of plywood and shelves. >Envision treks to Loews.

    Barbaric.

    There is now fiber in front of my door, I declined
    Using a Huawei USB stick plugged into a Raspberry Pi4 8 GB now as internet connection.
    As many systems offline as possibe (anti hacking).
    No WiFi either atm (I can switch it on if needed).
    Of course my smartphone has its own internet from a different provider,
    for redudancy, as I can take out the smartphone card, put it in the Huawei USB stick, all online again.
    And I can also put that Huawei USB stick in my laptop and have internet almost everywhere in Europe

    Was just reading today that now UK is changing policy and moving back to EU by allowing people from EU up to 30 years old
    to go and work there without visa.
    UK now has a labour govenment,

    Europe re-unites?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to blockedofcourse@foo.invalid on Fri Aug 23 06:03:36 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:31:24 -0700) it happened Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <va877f$igok$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 8/22/2024 10:09 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    I use a Cisco 2802E (WiFi 6) to connect the instrumentation/interfaces in
    the car to the house. Undoubtedly overkill... but, why use lead when gold >will suffice?

    (This, of course, because wires won't work! :> )

    If the house has a fixed IP address,
    then use a Huawei 4G stick as remote,
    gives you worldwide coverage.
    I can work via my website too,
    remote can upload to my site,
    house can read from my site
    and vice-versa
    No fixed IP needed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Fri Aug 23 05:59:22 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:09:56 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <va7rd4$14gv$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va78n1$1ifd7$1@solani.org...
    About WiFi7

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/


    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    Yes, lots of POE ethernet here
    I have some Linksys routers / accesspoints too,
    but WiFi is not really safe AFAIK, so it is off normally.

    A bit of extra WiFi speed would be fun.
    More channels too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Aug 23 10:44:44 2024
    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va98fq$1j36c$1@solani.org...
    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:09:56 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <va7rd4$14gv$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va78n1$1ifd7$1@solani.org...
    About WiFi7

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/


    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    Yes, lots of POE ethernet here
    I have some Linksys routers / accesspoints too,
    but WiFi is not really safe AFAIK, so it is off normally.

    Pretty much everything is on all the time here.
    Servers have to be or they won't be serving.
    And why would I want to wait while Windows says "You will not turn off your computer for half an hour while I update".
    Windows boxes which are mostly turned off invariably spend the next hour installing updates when they are turned on.

    Networks are safe if configured properly whether wired or wifi.
    While it's not likely that an unauthorized user will be able to get directly on my LAN, that does not by itself mean that they could
    obtain information I don't want them to have.

    If you leave your systems off for anti hacking reasons then you have effectively caused a denial of service attack against yourself.


    A bit of extra WiFi speed would be fun.
    More channels too.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 23 07:33:20 2024
    On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:55:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 08:06:33 -0700) it happened john larkin ><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mikecjlu0negpkia8e5i18u946l0n99qar@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 11:50:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>wrote:

    About WiFi7 >>>https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-a
    nd-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/

    Some day we won't have cell towers or wifi or cable modems or fiber to
    the premises, just one universal wireless system for everything. Data >>transport is a mess now.

    I just opened a new engineering office. I had to get an internet
    provider (we went with a MonkeyBrains dish on the roof), a 10-port PoE >>switch, a mild nightmare of local interconnect and CAT5 wiring to
    various offices, a wifi router, and all sorts of plywood and shelves. >>Envision treks to Loews.

    Barbaric.

    There is now fiber in front of my door, I declined
    Using a Huawei USB stick plugged into a Raspberry Pi4 8 GB now as internet connection.
    As many systems offline as possibe (anti hacking).
    No WiFi either atm (I can switch it on if needed).
    Of course my smartphone has its own internet from a different provider,
    for redudancy, as I can take out the smartphone card, put it in the Huawei USB stick, all online again.
    And I can also put that Huawei USB stick in my laptop and have internet almost everywhere in Europe

    I see about 20 wifs's from my office, two wide-open. I guess we didn't
    need to get our own internet connection.

    We hung a big TV on the wall next to a big whiteboard, for
    conferences. It took about 10 minutes mucking with the TV remote to
    get it to accept an HDMI input. Layers and layers of ads and services
    and terms-and-conditions nonsense to get past. The whiteboard just
    worked.


    Was just reading today that now UK is changing policy and moving back to EU by allowing people from EU up to 30 years old
    to go and work there without visa.
    UK now has a labour govenment,

    Europe re-unites?



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Fri Aug 23 07:50:22 2024
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:17:13 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "john larkin" <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in message news:mikecjlu0negpkia8e5i18u946l0n99qar@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 11:50:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    About WiFi7 >>>https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/

    Some day we won't have cell towers or wifi or cable modems or fiber to
    the premises, just one universal wireless system for everything.

    Where will the other end of the wireless link to/from your device be?

    The dish on the roof? I points to some other MonkeyBrains dish
    somewhere and all that eventually connects to some fast fibers
    somewhere, I guess.

    We're getting about 80+40 Mbits speed, which is OK I guess. This
    office is down in a village low in the Alamany Gap so the microwave
    optics isn 't great.

    At our main office we have much better line-of-sight (maybe 10 square
    miles visible from the roof) so it gets about 500+500.




    Data
    transport is a mess now.

    I just opened a new engineering office. I had to get an internet
    provider (we went with a MonkeyBrains dish on the roof)

    Not all of us live in places where it never snows.
    Heavy rain can cause issues.

    It doesn't snow in San Francisco and heavy rain is a rare novelty. Our
    main meterological feature is fog.

    3-phase power lines are 3 wires, without the high grounding wire you'd
    see in many places. We don't get lightning either.


    , a 10-port PoE
    switch, a mild nightmare of local interconnect and CAT5 wiring

    I'd have used CAT6


    The worst possible wimpy wire unshielded CAT5 (or maybe it's cat 0.5)
    wiring is already buried in the walls.



    to
    various offices, a wifi router,

    I'd have used a business class firewall.
    https://www.pfsense.org/ works well for me.
    I can go anywhere and use my own network as if I was there.

    and all sorts of plywood and shelves.
    Envision treks to Loews.

    Barbaric.



    One of my admin ladies also flies drones! She's going to fly around
    our roof and film the dish and the HVAC stuff and various views. She
    wants me to teach her how to use power tools. Her husband is not
    "handy."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 23 07:57:00 2024
    On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:59:22 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:09:56 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" ><invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in ><va7rd4$14gv$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va78n1$1ifd7$1@solani.org...
    About WiFi7

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/


    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    Yes, lots of POE ethernet here
    I have some Linksys routers / accesspoints too,
    but WiFi is not really safe AFAIK, so it is off normally.

    A bit of extra WiFi speed would be fun.
    More channels too.

    We'll be developing a new product line of PoE powered instruments, so everything we're installing is PoE. That's a great concept.

    Several people make tiny surface-mount PoE pickoff power supplies that
    do all the nasty negotiation for you.

    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Murata-Electronics/MYBSP01201ABF?qs=55YtniHzbhBWDJf9agE7ig%3D%3D&utm_id=20522222051&gad_source=1

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 23 11:47:04 2024
    "john larkin" <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in message news:rd7hcjpno2osdrjvm9i8gn73svh9kv856o@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:17:13 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "john larkin" <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in message news:mikecjlu0negpkia8e5i18u946l0n99qar@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 11:50:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    About WiFi7 >>>>https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/

    Some day we won't have cell towers or wifi or cable modems or fiber to
    the premises, just one universal wireless system for everything.

    Where will the other end of the wireless link to/from your device be?

    The dish on the roof? I points to some other MonkeyBrains dish
    somewhere and all that eventually connects to some fast fibers
    somewhere, I guess.

    Not much use on the move so I think cell towers will be with us for some time. And it does snow in some areas so dishes can be a problem in winter.


    We're getting about 80+40 Mbits speed, which is OK I guess.

    Ok if it's the only option but it doesn't compare with the fibre connection I have, and that's in a rural area.

    This
    office is down in a village low in the Alamany Gap so the microwave
    optics isn 't great.

    At our main office we have much better line-of-sight (maybe 10 square
    miles visible from the roof) so it gets about 500+500.



    ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 23 15:36:32 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Aug 2024 07:57:00 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <6f8hcjth338o6nlg0r6qs2dks1vl310vqa@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:59:22 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:09:56 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" >><invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in >><va7rd4$14gv$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va78n1$1ifd7$1@solani.org...
    About WiFi7


    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/


    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    Yes, lots of POE ethernet here
    I have some Linksys routers / accesspoints too,
    but WiFi is not really safe AFAIK, so it is off normally.

    A bit of extra WiFi speed would be fun.
    More channels too.

    We'll be developing a new product line of PoE powered instruments, so >everything we're installing is PoE. That's a great concept.

    Several people make tiny surface-mount PoE pickoff power supplies that
    do all the nasty negotiation for you.

    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Murata-Electronics/MYBSP01201ABF?qs=55YtniHzbhBWDJf9agE7ig%3D%3D&utm_id=20522222051&gad_sour
    ce=1

    696 in stock
    26 weeks from factury...
    About 13 Euro / dollies
    Maybe a DIY stepdown controller is easier?
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/CO_sensor_POE_UDP_PCB_IMG_6203.JPG

    Not so much to 'negotiate' if you can cover input from 12 to 50 V?
    Many switchers can...

    ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Fri Aug 23 15:39:42 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Aug 2024 10:44:44 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <vaa78t$5jo$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va98fq$1j36c$1@solani.org...
    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:09:56 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" >> <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <va7rd4$14gv$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va78n1$1ifd7$1@solani.org...
    About WiFi7


    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/


    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    Yes, lots of POE ethernet here
    I have some Linksys routers / accesspoints too,
    but WiFi is not really safe AFAIK, so it is off normally.

    Pretty much everything is on all the time here.
    Servers have to be or they won't be serving.
    And why would I want to wait while Windows says "You will not turn off your computer for half an hour while I update".
    Windows boxes which are mostly turned off invariably spend the next hour installing updates when they are turned on.

    Networks are safe if configured properly whether wired or wifi.
    While it's not likely that an unauthorized user will be able to get directly on my LAN, that does not by itself mean that they
    could
    obtain information I don't want them to have.

    If you leave your systems off for anti hacking reasons then you have effectively caused a denial of service attack against
    yourself.

    You do not need WiFi if you have ethernet cables installed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 23 15:20:11 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Aug 2024 07:33:20 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <e37hcjpn4kg42qnv0b24dv13s630dj420f@4ax.com>:

    On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:55:09 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 08:06:33 -0700) it happened john larkin >><jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <mikecjlu0negpkia8e5i18u946l0n99qar@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 11:50:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>wrote:

    About WiFi7 >>>>https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7
    -a
    nd-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/

    Some day we won't have cell towers or wifi or cable modems or fiber to >>>the premises, just one universal wireless system for everything. Data >>>transport is a mess now.

    I just opened a new engineering office. I had to get an internet
    provider (we went with a MonkeyBrains dish on the roof), a 10-port PoE >>>switch, a mild nightmare of local interconnect and CAT5 wiring to
    various offices, a wifi router, and all sorts of plywood and shelves. >>>Envision treks to Loews.

    Barbaric.

    There is now fiber in front of my door, I declined
    Using a Huawei USB stick plugged into a Raspberry Pi4 8 GB now as internet connection.
    As many systems offline as possibe (anti hacking).
    No WiFi either atm (I can switch it on if needed).
    Of course my smartphone has its own internet from a different provider,
    for redudancy, as I can take out the smartphone card, put it in the Huawei USB stick, all online again.
    And I can also put that Huawei USB stick in my laptop and have internet almost everywhere in Europe

    I see about 20 wifs's from my office, two wide-open. I guess we didn't
    need to get our own internet connection.

    We hung a big TV on the wall next to a big whiteboard, for
    conferences. It took about 10 minutes mucking with the TV remote to
    get it to accept an HDMI input. Layers and layers of ads and services
    and terms-and-conditions nonsense to get past. The whiteboard just
    worked.

    I bought a new big Samsung TV last April it was I think.
    7680x4320 resolution, build in sat receiver and DVB-T2 (terrestrial) receiver...
    3 HDMI ports, Ethernet, 55 inch...
    USB port for harddisk (4 TB connected to it now).
    The remote has very few buttons, all menu navigation cursor movement.
    Have some cheap satellite box connected to it..
    No problem to use it as white board I think?
    Viewing angle is limited (reflections).
    Strange thing is that the remote works with RF, not IR (you can control it from an other room..)
    I have a little handheld remote keyboard with cursor keys now connected to one of my Raspberry Pi4s that can do things on the screen,
    output from that Raspberry via HDMI to the Samsung should be no problem.
    Setup of the Samsung was 5 minutes... Well for me that is ....
    Was more difficult to get it out the box and place it ...
    Have not even tried all options...
    Uses less power than my old smaller TV set...
    Better speakers too, 60 W audio.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Aug 23 11:55:35 2024
    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va98np$1jjlv$1@solani.org...
    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:31:24 -0700) it happened Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <va877f$igok$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 8/22/2024 10:09 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    I use a Cisco 2802E (WiFi 6) to connect the instrumentation/interfaces in >>the car to the house. Undoubtedly overkill... but, why use lead when gold >>will suffice?

    (This, of course, because wires won't work! :> )

    If the house has a fixed IP address,
    then use a Huawei 4G stick as remote,
    gives you worldwide coverage.
    I can work via my website too,
    remote can upload to my site,
    house can read from my site
    and vice-versa
    No fixed IP needed.

    My house has a fixed IPv4 address (they tried to put me on lsn/cgnat but we needn't go into that).
    I use it for everything including Internet facing servers.
    Why would I need anything else?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 23 12:22:17 2024
    "john larkin" <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in message news:6f8hcjth338o6nlg0r6qs2dks1vl310vqa@4ax.com...
    On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 05:59:22 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:09:56 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" >><invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in >><va7rd4$14gv$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va78n1$1ifd7$1@solani.org...
    About WiFi7

    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/


    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    Yes, lots of POE ethernet here
    I have some Linksys routers / accesspoints too,
    but WiFi is not really safe AFAIK, so it is off normally.

    A bit of extra WiFi speed would be fun.
    More channels too.

    We'll be developing a new product line of PoE powered instruments, so everything we're installing is PoE. That's a great concept.

    The last PoE powered board I designed used LTC4267


    Several people make tiny surface-mount PoE pickoff power supplies that
    do all the nasty negotiation for you.

    https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Murata-Electronics/MYBSP01201ABF?qs=55YtniHzbhBWDJf9agE7ig%3D%3D&utm_id=20522222051&gad_source=1


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Fri Aug 23 12:32:21 2024
    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:vaaafv$1jkec$1@solani.org...
    On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Aug 2024 10:44:44 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <vaa78t$5jo$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va98fq$1j36c$1@solani.org...
    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:09:56 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" >>> <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <va7rd4$14gv$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va78n1$1ifd7$1@solani.org...
    About WiFi7


    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/


    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    Yes, lots of POE ethernet here
    I have some Linksys routers / accesspoints too,
    but WiFi is not really safe AFAIK, so it is off normally.

    Pretty much everything is on all the time here.
    Servers have to be or they won't be serving.
    And why would I want to wait while Windows says "You will not turn off your computer for half an hour while I update".
    Windows boxes which are mostly turned off invariably spend the next hour installing updates when they are turned on.

    Networks are safe if configured properly whether wired or wifi.
    While it's not likely that an unauthorized user will be able to get directly on my LAN, that does not by itself mean that they
    could
    obtain information I don't want them to have.

    If you leave your systems off for anti hacking reasons then you have effectively caused a denial of service attack against
    yourself.

    You do not need WiFi if you have ethernet cables installed

    Sure you do. How is my phone going to be online?
    Cell tower access for Internet is not reliable here.
    I use wires for what can use wires and wifi for anything which cannot sensibly be on a wired connection such as a phone.
    All wired connections and wifi access points are on all the time.

    Someone else mentioned cars. I prefer to keep my car off wifi. No need for the car to use it.
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/14/texas_sues_general_motors/




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Fri Aug 23 11:17:33 2024
    On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 11:47:04 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "john larkin" <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in message news:rd7hcjpno2osdrjvm9i8gn73svh9kv856o@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:17:13 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "john larkin" <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in message news:mikecjlu0negpkia8e5i18u946l0n99qar@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 11:50:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    About WiFi7 >>>>>https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/

    Some day we won't have cell towers or wifi or cable modems or fiber to >>>> the premises, just one universal wireless system for everything.

    Where will the other end of the wireless link to/from your device be?

    The dish on the roof? I points to some other MonkeyBrains dish
    somewhere and all that eventually connects to some fast fibers
    somewhere, I guess.

    Not much use on the move so I think cell towers will be with us for some time. >And it does snow in some areas so dishes can be a problem in winter.


    We're getting about 80+40 Mbits speed, which is OK I guess.

    Ok if it's the only option but it doesn't compare with the fibre connection I have, and that's in a rural area.

    We'll upgrade to cable or fiber if we need to. We have a sort of
    personal relation with the MonkeyBrains guy, and their support is
    great.

    They email us to tell us if our service is out!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Fri Aug 23 12:32:28 2024
    On 8/23/2024 9:32 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Someone else mentioned cars. I prefer to keep my car off wifi. No need for the car to use it.
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/14/texas_sues_general_motors/

    *I* mentioned cars. And, I use WiFi only to connect the car to the automation system in the house. So, if the garage door is inhibited from opening to
    allow the driver access, the driver can view a live image of the interior
    of the garage to see WHY the door is not being allowed to open (someone
    working in the garage, power failure, stuff in the path of the vehicle,
    pets wandering around, etc.)

    Would you, instead, like that to be conveyed to your ISP via your access point, over-the-air to your cell phone -- which you will have to access in order to "see" the scene? All those third-parties on which you will rely?

    Why not use all those LCD screens already in place in the car (and, have that happen automatically when you engage the garage door opener)?

    There's nothing you can do to keep your car from "tattling" to the dealership, manufacturer, credit bureau, etc. I've often wondered if it would throw a fit if you, e.g., shorted it;s antenna!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Fri Aug 23 12:38:02 2024
    On 8/23/2024 9:22 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    The last PoE powered board I designed used LTC4267

    I'm using small microcontrollers dedicated to the task. It lets
    you add features that aren't covered in the specification (e.g.,
    virtually "electrically" disconnect and reconnect the device,
    measure power consumption, alert the local host of faults,
    PWM *all* of the PD supplies, convey timing information, etc.)

    It's a more complex solution ("it's only software") but offers a
    lot of value-added *if* your devices are highly integrated with
    the network (and not just "blobs" dangling off the end of it)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Fri Aug 23 12:26:18 2024
    On 8/23/2024 7:44 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Pretty much everything is on all the time here.

    I have at least three boxes running 24/7/365:
    - my "network services" box (TFTP, NTP, DNS, etc.)
    - this "internet access" box (isolated from the rest of the network)
    - at least one workstation
    Servers, SANs, NASs, laptops are more "transient" devices that come on and
    off as they are needed.

    Servers have to be or they won't be serving. And why would I want to wait while Windows says "You will not turn off your computer for half an hour while I update". Windows boxes which are mostly turned off invariably spend the next hour installing updates when they are turned on.

    With an air-gapped network, you don't have to bother with countless "updates" (which can be seen as malware in and of themselves!)

    This machine runs nothing but Firefox and Tbird and HAS nothing on it of
    any value (my address book? stripped of all "personal information", of
    course -- even my "username" is anonymous!) So, there is nothing to lose
    if "compromised" and I can restore everything in 12 minutes (the time it
    takes to reload the most recent "image")

    NOT having a directly routed IP gives added protection from incoming
    threats (multi-NAS). I have a cloaked server that is accessible
    (Co-lo'ed) for the select persons that need access to it.

    Why would I want to waste time updating and protecting *tools*?

    Networks are safe if configured properly whether wired or wifi.

    That's not necessarily true. *Physical* access trumps all attempts at protection.

    While it's not likely that an unauthorized user will be able to get directly on my LAN, that does not by itself mean that they could obtain information I don't want them to have.

    But that's true of any site that you visit. Even your "network identity"
    can be uniquely fingerprinted by a remote service WATCHING how you access it.

    If you leave your systems off for anti hacking reasons then you have effectively caused a denial of service attack against yourself.

    Yup. But, you only need to make it accessible to *yourself* to avoid that problem. Too many businesses expose more than they need to just because limiting that exposure is harder if "everything" is hiding on the same
    server with ACLs as the only practical "defense".

    [Do you think a 50 million LoC piece of software doesn't have tens of
    thousands of latent bugs?? Bugs that can be identified, verified and quantified without your ever being aware that this has happened?]

    Consider, carefully, what you really need access to outside of your own physical domain. Then, RE-consider that!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Aug 23 15:54:57 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vaao50$112hi$2@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 9:32 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Someone else mentioned cars. I prefer to keep my car off wifi. No need for the car to use it.
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/14/texas_sues_general_motors/

    *I* mentioned cars. And, I use WiFi only to connect the car to the automation
    system in the house. So, if the garage door is inhibited from opening to allow the driver access, the driver can view a live image of the interior
    of the garage to see WHY the door is not being allowed to open (someone working in the garage, power failure, stuff in the path of the vehicle,
    pets wandering around, etc.)

    I'd put a camera in the garage for that. PoE Wired.


    Would you, instead, like that to be conveyed to your ISP via your access point,
    over-the-air to your cell phone -- which you will have to access in order to "see" the scene? All those third-parties on which you will rely?

    What does my ISP have to do with packets traveling between devices on my LAN??

    I don't and won't use cameras which bounce off the manufacturer's servers outside my LAN.


    Why not use all those LCD screens already in place in the car (and, have that happen automatically when you engage the garage door opener)?

    There's nothing you can do to keep your car from "tattling" to the dealership,
    manufacturer, credit bureau, etc. I've often wondered if it would throw a fit
    if you, e.g., shorted it;s antenna!

    What specific antenna or data communication means are you referring to?



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Aug 23 16:37:33 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vaanpe$112hi$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 7:44 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Pretty much everything is on all the time here.

    I have at least three boxes running 24/7/365:
    - my "network services" box (TFTP, NTP, DNS, etc.)
    - this "internet access" box (isolated from the rest of the network)
    - at least one workstation
    Servers, SANs, NASs, laptops are more "transient" devices that come on and off as they are needed.

    Servers have to be or they won't be serving. And why would I want to wait
    while Windows says "You will not turn off your computer for half an hour
    while I update". Windows boxes which are mostly turned off invariably spend >> the next hour installing updates when they are turned on.

    With an air-gapped network, you don't have to bother with countless "updates" (which can be seen as malware in and of themselves!)

    But I don't see how an air-gapped network is a network.
    I would not be able to get anything done.


    This machine runs nothing but Firefox and Tbird and HAS nothing on it of
    any value (my address book? stripped of all "personal information", of course -- even my "username" is anonymous!) So, there is nothing to lose
    if "compromised" and I can restore everything in 12 minutes (the time it takes to reload the most recent "image")

    NOT having a directly routed IP gives added protection from incoming
    threats (multi-NAS). I have a cloaked server that is accessible
    (Co-lo'ed) for the select persons that need access to it.

    Paranoia does have a lot to answer for in the cybersecurity world.

    I came across an individual with three virus scanners installed a few days ago. I didn't bother giving advice, I just left them to waste hours running scans.
    I did ask when they last found a virus and was confidently told "never".


    Why would I want to waste time updating and protecting *tools*?

    Networks are safe if configured properly whether wired or wifi.

    That's not necessarily true. *Physical* access trumps all attempts at protection.

    You haven't got a network if you need physical access. You have to be there.

    I could be writing this post from one country today and another tomorrow. Countries I never go to (Mostly non-English speaking countries) are blocked inbound by pfsense.
    That leaves "hackers" in USA and a few other countries who go on a pfsense blacklist if they are persistent.
    They aren't going to guess the password anyway but I don't like my logs cluttered with obvious password guessing attempts.
    A quick look at the firewall log shows that I'll probably add this one to the blacklist
    https://www.abuseipdb.com/check/104.234.229.117


    While it's not likely that an unauthorized user will be able to get directly >> on my LAN, that does not by itself mean that they could obtain information I >> don't want them to have.

    But that's true of any site that you visit. Even your "network identity"
    can be uniquely fingerprinted by a remote service WATCHING how you access it.

    Not sure what you mean by that but Tor is ready for any site I don't want to "identify" to.


    If you leave your systems off for anti hacking reasons then you have
    effectively caused a denial of service attack against yourself.

    Yup. But, you only need to make it accessible to *yourself* to avoid that problem. Too many businesses expose more than they need to just because limiting that exposure is harder if "everything" is hiding on the same
    server with ACLs as the only practical "defense".

    That's usually because management don't know how anything works.
    and those who do prefer an "if it aint broke don't fix it" approach to avoid upsetting management with system downtime.
    Sometimes it's because the installation instructions for say, a database server, are followed and everything seems to work fine.
    But no-one pays attention to where inbound connections to 3306 might come from.


    [Do you think a 50 million LoC piece of software doesn't have tens of thousands of latent bugs?? Bugs that can be identified, verified and quantified without your ever being aware that this has happened?]

    Consider, carefully, what you really need access to outside of your own physical domain.

    Oh I have, for a long time.
    So for me I can work from anywhere I might need to work from as if I was here, and all my files are here (not in any cloud).

    I've never had a malware issue, well not since I accidentally put an unpatched Windows 2000 box on a raw connection and got nimda.
    Since it was a fresh install it didn't matter. It was quickly wiped.

    Then, RE-consider that!


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Fri Aug 23 15:51:34 2024
    On 8/23/2024 12:54 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vaao50$112hi$2@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 9:32 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Someone else mentioned cars. I prefer to keep my car off wifi. No need for the car to use it.
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/14/texas_sues_general_motors/

    *I* mentioned cars. And, I use WiFi only to connect the car to the automation
    system in the house. So, if the garage door is inhibited from opening to
    allow the driver access, the driver can view a live image of the interior
    of the garage to see WHY the door is not being allowed to open (someone
    working in the garage, power failure, stuff in the path of the vehicle,
    pets wandering around, etc.)

    I'd put a camera in the garage for that. PoE Wired.

    Have several tied into the opener. Is anyone working on a ladder ABOVE
    the door rails? Is anything in the path of the car? Is anything moving
    around (animals, kids) inside the closed garage? etc. Use this information BEFORE allowing the door opener to be actuated.

    But, how do you let the *driver* "see" the "situation" inside the closed
    garage as he approaches the residence? Do you require him to use his
    phone to view that video? How (in)convenient is THAT?!

    Would you, instead, like that to be conveyed to your ISP via your access point,
    over-the-air to your cell phone -- which you will have to access in order to >> "see" the scene? All those third-parties on which you will rely?

    What does my ISP have to do with packets traveling between devices on my LAN??

    Do you have a long cord connecting your LAN to the car as it approaches from down the street?

    I don't and won't use cameras which bounce off the manufacturer's servers outside my LAN.

    Why not use all those LCD screens already in place in the car (and, have that
    happen automatically when you engage the garage door opener)?

    There's nothing you can do to keep your car from "tattling" to the dealership,
    manufacturer, credit bureau, etc. I've often wondered if it would throw a fit
    if you, e.g., shorted it;s antenna!

    What specific antenna or data communication means are you referring to?

    Most modern cars talk to the dealerships/manufacturers. Ever wonder how MY dealership knows not to pester me for a 5000 mile service after the typical
    3-4 months that most folks would encounter -- instead, waiting for a full
    year to tickle me with a USPS "coupon" for a discount on that service?
    *Who* is telling him about my driving habits? Who is telling LexisNexis about your driving habits?

    I tell the guy who does my routine maintenance NOT to reset the service indicator at his facility but, instead, to let ME do it "wherever I want"
    (as the location data captured at that event would be valuable to the dealership/manufacturer: "Where is he getting his service as it has
    NOT been from the dealer!??")

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Aug 23 18:33:36 2024
    "john larkin" <jl@650pot.com> wrote in message news:gpjhcj5no3tff4fgqensel4up4lc05drk6@4ax.com...
    On Fri, 23 Aug 2024 11:47:04 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "john larkin" <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in message news:rd7hcjpno2osdrjvm9i8gn73svh9kv856o@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:17:13 -0400, "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    "john larkin" <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in message news:mikecjlu0negpkia8e5i18u946l0n99qar@4ax.com...
    On Thu, 22 Aug 2024 11:50:56 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> >>>>> wrote:

    About WiFi7 >>>>>>https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/

    Some day we won't have cell towers or wifi or cable modems or fiber to >>>>> the premises, just one universal wireless system for everything.

    Where will the other end of the wireless link to/from your device be?

    The dish on the roof? I points to some other MonkeyBrains dish
    somewhere and all that eventually connects to some fast fibers
    somewhere, I guess.

    Not much use on the move so I think cell towers will be with us for some time.
    And it does snow in some areas so dishes can be a problem in winter.


    We're getting about 80+40 Mbits speed, which is OK I guess.

    Ok if it's the only option but it doesn't compare with the fibre connection I have, and that's in a rural area.

    We'll upgrade to cable or fiber if we need to. We have a sort of
    personal relation with the MonkeyBrains guy, and their support is
    great.

    They email us to tell us if our service is out!

    That reminds me of being somewhere around ten years old watching a family show with my parents.
    The picture was suddenly replaced by snow and the FM rushing noise (no mute then) came through the speaker.

    I said "Oh no the transmitter's gone off".
    My mother said "You'd think they'd put a caption up to tell us that".



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Aug 23 19:09:05 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vab3qa$12s47$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 12:54 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vaao50$112hi$2@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 9:32 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Someone else mentioned cars. I prefer to keep my car off wifi. No need for the car to use it.
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/14/texas_sues_general_motors/

    *I* mentioned cars. And, I use WiFi only to connect the car to the automation
    system in the house. So, if the garage door is inhibited from opening to >>> allow the driver access, the driver can view a live image of the interior >>> of the garage to see WHY the door is not being allowed to open (someone
    working in the garage, power failure, stuff in the path of the vehicle,
    pets wandering around, etc.)

    I'd put a camera in the garage for that. PoE Wired.

    Have several tied into the opener. Is anyone working on a ladder ABOVE
    the door rails? Is anything in the path of the car? Is anything moving around (animals, kids) inside the closed garage? etc. Use this information BEFORE allowing the door opener to be actuated.

    But, how do you let the *driver* "see" the "situation" inside the closed garage as he approaches the residence?

    Telepathy? Why does it matter? If my garage door didn't open I'd park outside the garage and then investigate why.

    Do you require him to use his
    phone to view that video? How (in)convenient is THAT?!

    I don't care much for phones but can't deny they have their uses.


    Would you, instead, like that to be conveyed to your ISP via your access point,
    over-the-air to your cell phone -- which you will have to access in order to
    "see" the scene? All those third-parties on which you will rely?

    What does my ISP have to do with packets traveling between devices on my LAN??

    Do you have a long cord connecting your LAN to the car as it approaches from down the street?

    Why would anyone need to see inside their garage as they approach from down the street??


    I don't and won't use cameras which bounce off the manufacturer's servers outside my LAN.

    Why not use all those LCD screens already in place in the car (and, have that
    happen automatically when you engage the garage door opener)?

    There's nothing you can do to keep your car from "tattling" to the dealership,
    manufacturer, credit bureau, etc. I've often wondered if it would throw a fit
    if you, e.g., shorted it;s antenna!

    What specific antenna or data communication means are you referring to?

    Most modern cars talk to the dealerships/manufacturers.

    Sure but is that by WiFi, bluetooth, or direct connection or does that depend on the car?
    If the location which does my oil change is uploading my driving habits to the car manufacturer then I would certainly like to know
    about that.

    Ever wonder how MY
    dealership knows not to pester me for a 5000 mile service after the typical 3-4 months that most folks would encounter -- instead, waiting for a full year to tickle me with a USPS "coupon" for a discount on that service?
    *Who* is telling him about my driving habits? Who is telling LexisNexis about
    your driving habits?

    I tell the guy who does my routine maintenance NOT to reset the service indicator at his facility but, instead, to let ME do it "wherever I want"
    (as the location data captured at that event would be valuable to the dealership/manufacturer: "Where is he getting his service as it has
    NOT been from the dealer!??")



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Fri Aug 23 16:12:38 2024
    On 8/23/2024 1:37 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vaanpe$112hi$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 7:44 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Pretty much everything is on all the time here.

    I have at least three boxes running 24/7/365:
    - my "network services" box (TFTP, NTP, DNS, etc.)
    - this "internet access" box (isolated from the rest of the network)
    - at least one workstation
    Servers, SANs, NASs, laptops are more "transient" devices that come on and >> off as they are needed.

    Servers have to be or they won't be serving. And why would I want to wait >>> while Windows says "You will not turn off your computer for half an hour >>> while I update". Windows boxes which are mostly turned off invariably spend >>> the next hour installing updates when they are turned on.

    With an air-gapped network, you don't have to bother with countless "updates"
    (which can be seen as malware in and of themselves!)

    But I don't see how an air-gapped network is a network.
    I would not be able to get anything done.

    If everything you need is IN that network, then why open it up to potential adversaries? I have scanners, printers, in-circuit-emulators, CAD/CAE
    systems, etc. all "a click away" -- without ever leaving the confines of
    my home/office.

    If I need to find a datasheet, I can move to THIS machine, locate the datasheet, download it to a thumb drive and sneakernet it into the
    office. How often do you need to do *that*?

    This machine runs nothing but Firefox and Tbird and HAS nothing on it of
    any value (my address book? stripped of all "personal information", of
    course -- even my "username" is anonymous!) So, there is nothing to lose
    if "compromised" and I can restore everything in 12 minutes (the time it
    takes to reload the most recent "image")

    NOT having a directly routed IP gives added protection from incoming
    threats (multi-NAS). I have a cloaked server that is accessible
    (Co-lo'ed) for the select persons that need access to it.

    Paranoia does have a lot to answer for in the cybersecurity world.

    I came across an individual with three virus scanners installed a few days ago.
    I didn't bother giving advice, I just left them to waste hours running scans. I did ask when they last found a virus and was confidently told "never".

    I have no such tools "installed", here. Every 6 months, I pull the disk from this machine and check the disk pulled 6 months earlier with the "latest"
    free AV scanner. This gives the tool vendor a chance to catch up with
    the latest exploits (a 6 month window) which a "current subscriber" can
    only HOPE to gain protection.

    I've never found anything. So, either the tools folks are using are ineffective -- or, my internet behavior is pro-actively robust.

    Why would I want to waste time updating and protecting *tools*?

    Networks are safe if configured properly whether wired or wifi.

    That's not necessarily true. *Physical* access trumps all attempts at
    protection.

    You haven't got a network if you need physical access. You have to be there.

    Of course you have a network. I have three 24-port switches in the office (virtually all ports in use) and two 12's in my bedroom. Is this NOT a network because I can walk to all of the nodes?

    If a person has physical access to YOUR "network", then security is a moot point. Even an encrypted drive is vulnerable -- I *steal* it and I've
    now effectively denied you service.

    I could be writing this post from one country today and another tomorrow.

    As could I. By using any NNTP agent on any internet connected machine.
    Why does it have to be one of the machines on my air-gapped network?

    Countries I never go to (Mostly non-English speaking countries) are blocked inbound by pfsense.

    Wonderful. And you have to maintain that. Instead of doing "real work".

    That leaves "hackers" in USA and a few other countries who go on a pfsense blacklist if they are persistent.
    They aren't going to guess the password anyway but I don't like my logs cluttered with obvious password guessing attempts.
    A quick look at the firewall log shows that I'll probably add this one to the blacklist
    https://www.abuseipdb.com/check/104.234.229.117


    While it's not likely that an unauthorized user will be able to get directly
    on my LAN, that does not by itself mean that they could obtain information I
    don't want them to have.

    But that's true of any site that you visit. Even your "network identity"
    can be uniquely fingerprinted by a remote service WATCHING how you access it.

    Not sure what you mean by that but Tor is ready for any site I don't want to "identify" to.

    Your browser can be fingerprinted. They (the sites you visit) may not know your *name* (yet) but, know that "you" are visiting site X, Y and Z. Are
    you sure they aren't sharing information about your visits?

    If you leave your systems off for anti hacking reasons then you have
    effectively caused a denial of service attack against yourself.

    Yup. But, you only need to make it accessible to *yourself* to avoid that >> problem. Too many businesses expose more than they need to just because
    limiting that exposure is harder if "everything" is hiding on the same
    server with ACLs as the only practical "defense".

    That's usually because management don't know how anything works.

    Its usually because folks are lazy and overconfident in their abilities
    to lock things down. Take the very same folks and pay them to *infiltrate*
    the systems that they had previously been "protecting". Amazing how many "holes" you can find when your attitude is to FIND them instead of
    (pretending) to plug them.

    The same is true of most developers -- especially folks writing software.
    Have someone pay you to break the design you just "finished" and you (and
    they) will forever see your *design* efforts in a different light!

    How hard to you work at trying to identify conditions that can/will break
    your design?

    and those who do prefer an "if it aint broke don't fix it" approach to avoid upsetting management with system downtime.
    Sometimes it's because the installation instructions for say, a database server, are followed and everything seems to work fine.
    But no-one pays attention to where inbound connections to 3306 might come from.

    No one thinks about where connections *should* come from!
    Instead, they convince themselves that they want to maximize
    convenience "just in case I want to have access from XXXXX".
    They gleefully ignore the fact that an adversary can be
    *anywhere* leveraging a hijacked host "somewhere" to LOOK
    like a possibly legitimate access.

    [Do you think a 50 million LoC piece of software doesn't have tens of
    thousands of latent bugs?? Bugs that can be identified, verified and
    quantified without your ever being aware that this has happened?]

    Consider, carefully, what you really need access to outside of your own
    physical domain.

    Oh I have, for a long time.
    So for me I can work from anywhere I might need to work from as if I was here, and all my files are here (not in any cloud).

    Thus they are all accessible -- to a determined adversary, as well.
    Do you really *need* access to all that? Or, are you just making the
    same error as above: maximizing convenience "just in case"??

    I've never had a malware issue, well not since I accidentally put an unpatched Windows 2000 box on a raw connection and got nimda.
    Since it was a fresh install it didn't matter. It was quickly wiped.

    Then, RE-consider that!




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Fri Aug 23 16:27:36 2024
    On 8/23/2024 4:09 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vab3qa$12s47$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 12:54 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vaao50$112hi$2@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 9:32 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Someone else mentioned cars. I prefer to keep my car off wifi. No need for the car to use it.
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/14/texas_sues_general_motors/

    *I* mentioned cars. And, I use WiFi only to connect the car to the automation
    system in the house. So, if the garage door is inhibited from opening to >>>> allow the driver access, the driver can view a live image of the interior >>>> of the garage to see WHY the door is not being allowed to open (someone >>>> working in the garage, power failure, stuff in the path of the vehicle, >>>> pets wandering around, etc.)

    I'd put a camera in the garage for that. PoE Wired.

    Have several tied into the opener. Is anyone working on a ladder ABOVE
    the door rails? Is anything in the path of the car? Is anything moving
    around (animals, kids) inside the closed garage? etc. Use this information
    BEFORE allowing the door opener to be actuated.

    But, how do you let the *driver* "see" the "situation" inside the closed
    garage as he approaches the residence?

    Telepathy? Why does it matter? If my garage door didn't open I'd park outside the garage and then investigate why.

    So, you would be inconvenienced. Fine. Why have a garage at all?
    Why not "settle" for parking on the street ALL THE TIME?

    Would you, instead, like that to be conveyed to your ISP via your access point,
    over-the-air to your cell phone -- which you will have to access in order to
    "see" the scene? All those third-parties on which you will rely?

    What does my ISP have to do with packets traveling between devices on my LAN??

    Do you have a long cord connecting your LAN to the car as it approaches from >> down the street?

    Why would anyone need to see inside their garage as they approach from down the street??

    You don't -- unless the door doesn't want to open on your command. Here,
    if that happened because SWMBO was digging through the freezer chest and
    the dogs were at her feet, I would TELL her to get the dogs in the house
    so I could pull in.

    Why would they need a garage door opener? Why would that opener need safety features? If the nose of your car hangs above the photoelectric sensors,
    will the door KNOW this? Or, will it gladly close on your door, putting a crease in your hood (when the over-current sensor on the motor detected the "obstruction" -- BY TOUCH)?

    I don't and won't use cameras which bounce off the manufacturer's servers outside my LAN.

    Why not use all those LCD screens already in place in the car (and, have that
    happen automatically when you engage the garage door opener)?

    There's nothing you can do to keep your car from "tattling" to the dealership,
    manufacturer, credit bureau, etc. I've often wondered if it would throw a fit
    if you, e.g., shorted it;s antenna!

    What specific antenna or data communication means are you referring to?

    Most modern cars talk to the dealerships/manufacturers.

    Sure but is that by WiFi, bluetooth, or direct connection or does that depend on the car?

    That's not under your control. My WiFi use *is* under my control -- I own the AP and the radio in the car. No one else can connect to those things.

    If the location which does my oil change is uploading my driving habits to the car manufacturer then I would certainly like to know
    about that.

    They don't have to. The CAR does it. They, as a service to you, will reset the "maintenance minder" (that the car controls based on mileage, habits, etc.). The car *likely* would convey the event "Maintenance Minder Reset"
    to the vendor. So, the vendor knows that SOMEONE serviced your vehicle
    (and they can easily determine that it wasn't the dealer -- because the
    dealer has no record of servicing your vehicle). Provide the GPS
    coordinates (available to the car at all times!) along with the notification
    of the "indicator has been reset" and it's not hard for someone to figure
    out *who* serviced your car.

    The car likely tattles about your usage in order to help the dealership
    sell services to you -- and, this as a "convenience FOR you"! (so YOU
    don't have to remember when the car needs service)

    Vendors obviously have access to usage data as they have been caught
    selling it to third parties.

    Lots of information "leaks" in data exchanges. I was able to tell my
    sister which days her (ex) husband had skipped work (to visit his
    girlfriend!) just from a casual look through his cell phone records.
    ("Why is he in Town X as he is making this call instead of Town Y -- where
    he WORKS?")

    [I can tell -- to a high degree of certainty -- if someone in my house took
    a bath, shower, or shit (and, whether or not he washed his hands!), based on how long he was in the bathroom, the total volume of water consumed and its rate of flow.]

    Ever wonder how MY
    dealership knows not to pester me for a 5000 mile service after the typical >> 3-4 months that most folks would encounter -- instead, waiting for a full
    year to tickle me with a USPS "coupon" for a discount on that service?
    *Who* is telling him about my driving habits? Who is telling LexisNexis about
    your driving habits?

    I tell the guy who does my routine maintenance NOT to reset the service
    indicator at his facility but, instead, to let ME do it "wherever I want"
    (as the location data captured at that event would be valuable to the
    dealership/manufacturer: "Where is he getting his service as it has
    NOT been from the dealer!??")

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Aug 23 20:14:03 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vab51q$12s47$2@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 1:37 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vaanpe$112hi$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 7:44 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Pretty much everything is on all the time here.

    I have at least three boxes running 24/7/365:
    - my "network services" box (TFTP, NTP, DNS, etc.)
    - this "internet access" box (isolated from the rest of the network)
    - at least one workstation
    Servers, SANs, NASs, laptops are more "transient" devices that come on and >>> off as they are needed.

    Servers have to be or they won't be serving. And why would I want to wait >>>> while Windows says "You will not turn off your computer for half an hour >>>> while I update". Windows boxes which are mostly turned off invariably spend
    the next hour installing updates when they are turned on.

    With an air-gapped network, you don't have to bother with countless "updates"
    (which can be seen as malware in and of themselves!)

    But I don't see how an air-gapped network is a network.
    I would not be able to get anything done.

    If everything you need is IN that network, then why open it up to potential adversaries?

    I don't have anything open to potential adversaries.

    I have scanners, printers, in-circuit-emulators, CAD/CAE
    systems, etc. all "a click away"

    So do I.

    -- without ever leaving the confines of
    my home/office.

    I can use mine from any country I'm likely to be in.


    If I need to find a datasheet, I can move to THIS machine, locate the datasheet, download it to a thumb drive and sneakernet it into the
    office. How often do you need to do *that*?

    Every few minutes, and I can do it all from where I sit, even if I go to another country.


    This machine runs nothing but Firefox and Tbird and HAS nothing on it of >>> any value (my address book? stripped of all "personal information", of
    course -- even my "username" is anonymous!) So, there is nothing to lose >>> if "compromised" and I can restore everything in 12 minutes (the time it >>> takes to reload the most recent "image")

    NOT having a directly routed IP gives added protection from incoming
    threats (multi-NAS). I have a cloaked server that is accessible
    (Co-lo'ed) for the select persons that need access to it.

    Paranoia does have a lot to answer for in the cybersecurity world.

    I came across an individual with three virus scanners installed a few days ago.
    I didn't bother giving advice, I just left them to waste hours running scans.
    I did ask when they last found a virus and was confidently told "never".

    I have no such tools "installed", here.

    Same here. Just the default Microsoft scanner.

    Every 6 months, I pull the disk from
    this machine and check the disk pulled 6 months earlier with the "latest" free AV scanner. This gives the tool vendor a chance to catch up with
    the latest exploits (a 6 month window) which a "current subscriber" can
    only HOPE to gain protection.

    I've never found anything. So, either the tools folks are using are ineffective -- or, my internet behavior is pro-actively robust.

    Well if you put yourself in prison you're not likely to be bothered by much from outside.


    Why would I want to waste time updating and protecting *tools*?

    Networks are safe if configured properly whether wired or wifi.

    That's not necessarily true. *Physical* access trumps all attempts at
    protection.

    You haven't got a network if you need physical access. You have to be there.

    Of course you have a network. I have three 24-port switches in the office (virtually all ports in use) and two 12's in my bedroom. Is this NOT a network
    because I can walk to all of the nodes?

    If a person has physical access to YOUR "network", then security is a moot point. Even an encrypted drive is vulnerable -- I *steal* it and I've
    now effectively denied you service.

    Plenty of people have physical access to my network.
    Most of them wouldn't know a switch from a banana.
    Those who would are trusted people.
    Untrusted people who might know what a switch is are simply not allowed anywhere near my physical LAN.


    I could be writing this post from one country today and another tomorrow.

    As could I. By using any NNTP agent on any internet connected machine.
    Why does it have to be one of the machines on my air-gapped network?

    Because you'd have missed your flight by the time you find and install one and what if you need that data sheet you left on your
    office computer?
    Sure you can download it but was that LT1234 or LT2341 or LTC1324? and what if you'd really like to have the LTSpice simulation you
    did at the office?


    Countries I never go to (Mostly non-English speaking countries) are blocked inbound by pfsense.

    Wonderful. And you have to maintain that. Instead of doing "real work".

    LOL these people maintain it for me:
    https://www.maxmind.com/en/home


    That leaves "hackers" in USA and a few other countries who go on a pfsense blacklist if they are persistent.
    They aren't going to guess the password anyway but I don't like my logs cluttered with obvious password guessing attempts.
    A quick look at the firewall log shows that I'll probably add this one to the blacklist
    https://www.abuseipdb.com/check/104.234.229.117


    While it's not likely that an unauthorized user will be able to get directly
    on my LAN, that does not by itself mean that they could obtain information I
    don't want them to have.

    But that's true of any site that you visit. Even your "network identity" >>> can be uniquely fingerprinted by a remote service WATCHING how you access it.

    Not sure what you mean by that but Tor is ready for any site I don't want to "identify" to.

    Your browser can be fingerprinted. They (the sites you visit) may not know your *name* (yet) but, know that "you" are visiting site X, Y and Z. Are
    you sure they aren't sharing information about your visits?

    Fairly sure yes. I can tell because You Tube doesn't offer relevant (or so it thinks) videos whenever I restart my browser.


    If you leave your systems off for anti hacking reasons then you have
    effectively caused a denial of service attack against yourself.

    Yup. But, you only need to make it accessible to *yourself* to avoid that >>> problem. Too many businesses expose more than they need to just because >>> limiting that exposure is harder if "everything" is hiding on the same
    server with ACLs as the only practical "defense".

    That's usually because management don't know how anything works.

    Its usually because folks are lazy and overconfident in their abilities
    to lock things down. Take the very same folks and pay them to *infiltrate* the systems that they had previously been "protecting". Amazing how many "holes" you can find when your attitude is to FIND them instead of (pretending) to plug them.

    Human nature isn't going to change any time soon.


    The same is true of most developers -- especially folks writing software. Have someone pay you to break the design you just "finished" and you (and they) will forever see your *design* efforts in a different light!

    How hard to you work at trying to identify conditions that can/will break your design?

    Depends on what I'm designing and what it will be used for.


    and those who do prefer an "if it aint broke don't fix it" approach to avoid upsetting management with system downtime.
    Sometimes it's because the installation instructions for say, a database server, are followed and everything seems to work fine.
    But no-one pays attention to where inbound connections to 3306 might come from.

    No one thinks about where connections *should* come from!
    Instead, they convince themselves that they want to maximize
    convenience "just in case I want to have access from XXXXX".
    They gleefully ignore the fact that an adversary can be
    *anywhere* leveraging a hijacked host "somewhere" to LOOK
    like a possibly legitimate access.

    Oh yes I get plenty of packets from compromised machines where the perpetrator is hidden by that machine.
    But they still can't open a properly locked online door no matter how many keys they try.


    [Do you think a 50 million LoC piece of software doesn't have tens of
    thousands of latent bugs?? Bugs that can be identified, verified and
    quantified without your ever being aware that this has happened?]

    Consider, carefully, what you really need access to outside of your own
    physical domain.

    Oh I have, for a long time.
    So for me I can work from anywhere I might need to work from as if I was here, and all my files are here (not in any cloud).

    Thus they are all accessible -- to a determined adversary, as well.

    Only in Paranoia land.
    In reality they are accessible only to those who should have access.

    Do you really *need* access to all that?

    Of course. Why shouldn't I work from anywhere as if I was here?
    I can have immediate access to anything I might need to show a potential customer without needing to remember to copy it to my
    laptop.
    I can have a quiet day in the library doing exactly the same work I do here with the same tools and the same data.
    I can work from a hotel room just as if I was here.

    Or, are you just making the
    same error as above: maximizing convenience "just in case"??

    I was away last weekend but could work as if I was here.
    One individual's error is another individual's way of doing things.

    I think maybe you should get some glasses which, at the first hint of danger, turn totally black.
    This preventing you from seeing anything which might alarm you.


    I've never had a malware issue, well not since I accidentally put an unpatched Windows 2000 box on a raw connection and got
    nimda.
    Since it was a fresh install it didn't matter. It was quickly wiped.

    Then, RE-consider that!






    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Aug 23 20:39:20 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vab5ts$12s47$3@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 4:09 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vab3qa$12s47$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 12:54 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vaao50$112hi$2@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 9:32 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Someone else mentioned cars. I prefer to keep my car off wifi. No need for the car to use it.
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/14/texas_sues_general_motors/

    *I* mentioned cars. And, I use WiFi only to connect the car to the automation
    system in the house. So, if the garage door is inhibited from opening to >>>>> allow the driver access, the driver can view a live image of the interior >>>>> of the garage to see WHY the door is not being allowed to open (someone >>>>> working in the garage, power failure, stuff in the path of the vehicle, >>>>> pets wandering around, etc.)

    I'd put a camera in the garage for that. PoE Wired.

    Have several tied into the opener. Is anyone working on a ladder ABOVE
    the door rails? Is anything in the path of the car? Is anything moving >>> around (animals, kids) inside the closed garage? etc. Use this information
    BEFORE allowing the door opener to be actuated.

    But, how do you let the *driver* "see" the "situation" inside the closed >>> garage as he approaches the residence?

    Telepathy? Why does it matter? If my garage door didn't open I'd park outside the garage and then investigate why.

    So, you would be inconvenienced. Fine. Why have a garage at all?
    Why not "settle" for parking on the street ALL THE TIME?

    Never mind.


    Would you, instead, like that to be conveyed to your ISP via your access point,
    over-the-air to your cell phone -- which you will have to access in order to
    "see" the scene? All those third-parties on which you will rely?

    What does my ISP have to do with packets traveling between devices on my LAN??

    Do you have a long cord connecting your LAN to the car as it approaches from
    down the street?

    Why would anyone need to see inside their garage as they approach from down the street??

    You don't -- unless the door doesn't want to open on your command. Here,
    if that happened because SWMBO was digging through the freezer chest and
    the dogs were at her feet, I would TELL her to get the dogs in the house
    so I could pull in.

    How would you know in advance that the door wasn't going to open on your command?
    How would you tell her? By phone? Isn't that inconvenient?
    I would put the freezer in the house and make sure the garage door is not obstructed by dogs or anything else.
    Problem solved.


    Why would they need a garage door opener? Why would that opener need safety features? If the nose of your car hangs above the photoelectric sensors, will the door KNOW this? Or, will it gladly close on your door, putting a crease in your hood (when the over-current sensor on the motor detected the "obstruction" -- BY TOUCH)?

    Sorry but I'm beginning to wonder whether you live on the same planet as me.


    I don't and won't use cameras which bounce off the manufacturer's servers outside my LAN.

    Why not use all those LCD screens already in place in the car (and, have that
    happen automatically when you engage the garage door opener)?

    There's nothing you can do to keep your car from "tattling" to the dealership,
    manufacturer, credit bureau, etc. I've often wondered if it would throw a fit
    if you, e.g., shorted it;s antenna!

    What specific antenna or data communication means are you referring to? >>>
    Most modern cars talk to the dealerships/manufacturers.

    Sure but is that by WiFi, bluetooth, or direct connection or does that depend on the car?

    That's not under your control. My WiFi use *is* under my control -- I own the
    AP and the radio in the car. No one else can connect to those things.

    If the location which does my oil change is uploading my driving habits to the car manufacturer then I would certainly like to
    know
    about that.

    They don't have to. The CAR does it.

    By what means? Please describe the specific communication channel the car is using when it uploads my driving habits to the
    manufacturer.

    They, as a service to you, will reset
    the "maintenance minder" (that the car controls based on mileage, habits, etc.). The car *likely* would convey the event "Maintenance Minder Reset"
    to the vendor.

    By what communication channel?

    So, the vendor knows that SOMEONE serviced your vehicle
    (and they can easily determine that it wasn't the dealer -- because the dealer has no record of servicing your vehicle). Provide the GPS
    coordinates (available to the car at all times!)

    Jamming GPS isn't hard but we needn't go into that.

    along with the notification
    of the "indicator has been reset" and it's not hard for someone to figure
    out *who* serviced your car.

    The car likely tattles about your usage in order to help the dealership
    sell services to you -- and, this as a "convenience FOR you"! (so YOU
    don't have to remember when the car needs service)

    Vendors obviously have access to usage data as they have been caught
    selling it to third parties.

    Lots of information "leaks" in data exchanges. I was able to tell my
    sister which days her (ex) husband had skipped work (to visit his girlfriend!) just from a casual look through his cell phone records.
    ("Why is he in Town X as he is making this call instead of Town Y -- where
    he WORKS?")

    [I can tell -- to a high degree of certainty -- if someone in my house took
    a bath, shower, or shit (and, whether or not he washed his hands!), based on how long he was in the bathroom, the total volume of water consumed and its rate of flow.]

    You must be popular with visitors.


    Ever wonder how MY
    dealership knows not to pester me for a 5000 mile service after the typical >>> 3-4 months that most folks would encounter -- instead, waiting for a full >>> year to tickle me with a USPS "coupon" for a discount on that service?
    *Who* is telling him about my driving habits? Who is telling LexisNexis about
    your driving habits?

    I tell the guy who does my routine maintenance NOT to reset the service
    indicator at his facility but, instead, to let ME do it "wherever I want" >>> (as the location data captured at that event would be valuable to the
    dealership/manufacturer: "Where is he getting his service as it has
    NOT been from the dealer!??")



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Fri Aug 23 18:46:47 2024
    On 8/23/2024 5:14 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    But I don't see how an air-gapped network is a network.
    I would not be able to get anything done.

    If everything you need is IN that network, then why open it up to potential >> adversaries?

    I don't have anything open to potential adversaries.

    Of course you do. You just don't THINK you do!

    I have scanners, printers, in-circuit-emulators, CAD/CAE
    systems, etc. all "a click away"

    So do I.

    So, then I guess MINE is a network, right?

    -- without ever leaving the confines of
    my home/office.

    I can use mine from any country I'm likely to be in.

    How do you place the documents in the scanner? Pick the pages up
    off the printer? Turn the power on to the DUT you are debugging
    with the ICE?

    If I need to find a datasheet, I can move to THIS machine, locate the
    datasheet, download it to a thumb drive and sneakernet it into the
    office. How often do you need to do *that*?

    Every few minutes, and I can do it all from where I sit, even if I go to another country.

    Really? How HUGE must your designs be to need you to spend all that
    time constantly downloading NEW datasheets? Do you ever READ any of them?
    How *trivial* are the designs if you are able to move on to MORE datasheets after "using" the previous ones?

    I came across an individual with three virus scanners installed a few days ago.
    I didn't bother giving advice, I just left them to waste hours running scans.
    I did ask when they last found a virus and was confidently told "never".

    I have no such tools "installed", here.

    Same here. Just the default Microsoft scanner.

    Yet you allow updates -- to the OS? Apps? Even the malware scanner?

    Every 6 months, I pull the disk from
    this machine and check the disk pulled 6 months earlier with the "latest"
    free AV scanner. This gives the tool vendor a chance to catch up with
    the latest exploits (a 6 month window) which a "current subscriber" can
    only HOPE to gain protection.

    I've never found anything. So, either the tools folks are using are
    ineffective -- or, my internet behavior is pro-actively robust.

    Well if you put yourself in prison you're not likely to be bothered by much from outside.

    Gee, I have far more design and personal freedom than any of my colleagues! And, have had such for decades, now. So much so that they have started "cutting the cord", as well.

    You are likely RELIANT on the outside world. Me? not so much.

    Of course you have a network. I have three 24-port switches in the office >> (virtually all ports in use) and two 12's in my bedroom. Is this NOT a network
    because I can walk to all of the nodes?

    If a person has physical access to YOUR "network", then security is a moot >> point. Even an encrypted drive is vulnerable -- I *steal* it and I've
    now effectively denied you service.

    Plenty of people have physical access to my network.
    Most of them wouldn't know a switch from a banana.
    Those who would are trusted people.
    Untrusted people who might know what a switch is are simply not allowed anywhere near my physical LAN.

    You've then confirmed my statement. Or, do you just not like folks
    to touch your things?

    You can come and stay, overnight, in my guest room. You can use either of
    the two drops, there, to access The Internet. You can look and see all of
    the devices wired in to the house -- yet can't interfere with any of them
    (let alone compromise any of them) without physically walking up to
    them and "damaging" them.

    Take a tesla coil and short it to the 8P8C's. Well, there goes YOUR
    internet access. But, nothing else (including the switches!) cares.

    I could be writing this post from one country today and another tomorrow. >>
    As could I. By using any NNTP agent on any internet connected machine.
    Why does it have to be one of the machines on my air-gapped network?

    Because you'd have missed your flight by the time you find and install one and what if you need that data sheet you left on your
    office computer?

    If the datasheet CAME from The Internet, why can't I now relocate it
    ON The Internet?

    When you travel, do you not take a phone and/or laptop WITH you?
    Do the places you visit not have libraries and public access places?
    Do none of the colleagues/friends/businesses that you visit have
    laptops or workstations that they will let you use?

    NNTP, email, WWW are ubiquitous services. There's no need to
    burden yourself trying to support something "special".

    Sure you can download it but was that LT1234 or LT2341 or LTC1324? and what if you'd really like to have the LTSpice simulation you
    did at the office?

    If I was going to be away from the office long enough that something that I HADN'T PLANNED ON WORKING ON became significant, then I would be a piss poor worker.

    I was called home for a medical emergency. I grabbed my checkbook (so I
    would know what periodic bills were coming due along with the related
    paying methods), a laptop and copied some files onto it. The emergency
    dragged on for 3 months. I was never in need of anything that I didn't have with me *or* that I couldn't get using a neighbor's AP (my folks don't
    have internet service).

    I was even able to design the artwork for some "aprons" and "book bags"
    for the local library's volunteer organization and email the artwork to them.

    True, I was unable to replant the tree that toppled in the back yard during
    a storm that occurred while I was away. But, my *work* was unaffected.

    Having big projects makes it relatively easy to be able to work on *something* even if it wasn't what you may have originally planned.

    [The parts I tried to order this week are not here -- but, I can divert my
    time to creating more test cases for my gesture recognizer. Or, documenting the virtual memory interface in my RTOS. Or...]

    Countries I never go to (Mostly non-English speaking countries) are blocked inbound by pfsense.

    Wonderful. And you have to maintain that. Instead of doing "real work".

    LOL these people maintain it for me:
    https://www.maxmind.com/en/home

    They came over to your house to install it? And, the updates? And, rewrite special rules for your access? All for free??

    Your browser can be fingerprinted. They (the sites you visit) may not know >> your *name* (yet) but, know that "you" are visiting site X, Y and Z. Are
    you sure they aren't sharing information about your visits?

    Fairly sure yes. I can tell because You Tube doesn't offer relevant (or so it thinks) videos whenever I restart my browser.

    That's specious reasoning.

    "My house hasn't been burglarized so I *know* it is secure..."

    The same is true of most developers -- especially folks writing software.
    Have someone pay you to break the design you just "finished" and you (and
    they) will forever see your *design* efforts in a different light!

    How hard to you work at trying to identify conditions that can/will break
    your design?

    Depends on what I'm designing and what it will be used for.

    Ah, so you only care about quality *sometimes*?

    [Do you think a 50 million LoC piece of software doesn't have tens of
    thousands of latent bugs?? Bugs that can be identified, verified and
    quantified without your ever being aware that this has happened?]

    Consider, carefully, what you really need access to outside of your own >>>> physical domain.

    Oh I have, for a long time.
    So for me I can work from anywhere I might need to work from as if I was here, and all my files are here (not in any cloud).

    Thus they are all accessible -- to a determined adversary, as well.

    Only in Paranoia land.
    In reality they are accessible only to those who should have access.

    Ah! You should go to work for the government, banks, major corporations, etc. All the folks who seem to have "problems" with compromises -- as you seem to have a monopoly on "doing it right"! Amazing!

    Do you really *need* access to all that?

    Of course. Why shouldn't I work from anywhere as if I was here?

    That;s not the question I asked. *I* can work from anywhere. And, as indicated, above, have been forced to do so "in a moment's notice".

    The question is, what do you NEED to have access to.

    I have all of my tax records "online". My music catalog. My dead-tree library. Every project I've designed (and supporting documents and toolchains).

    If you are working on anything "of substance", you typically only
    need *that* workproduct and the reference documents that it relies
    upon.

    I keep a laptop with a few DTP tools (FrameMaker, Photoshop, Illustrator,
    etc.) for cases when I want to spend time preparing documentation while traveling. Another with CAD/EDA tools (and Acrobat) if I want to work on hardware designs. Another with a set of compiler suites if I plan on
    writing code. We have periodic offsites at various places around the
    country. Prior to departing, I decide what I want to spend my "idle"
    time working on and what I want to demo. This means one or two laptops
    get packed with my clothes.

    If I need to create a spreadsheet or other "ubiquitous" document, I
    can find SOME tool on one of my colleagues machines - without having
    to keep that on any/all of MINE!

    I can have immediate access to anything I might need to show a potential customer without needing to remember to copy it to my
    laptop.

    So, you don't have to "be prepared".

    I can have a quiet day in the library doing exactly the same work I do here with the same tools and the same data.
    I can work from a hotel room just as if I was here.

    And, how is that different from the examples I have given?

    Granted, I can't tell you how much I paid for a particular piece
    of equipment 4 years ago (as my tax records are not accessible
    remotely and I am not likely to WANT to take those out of the house).
    But, how often do you think having that data "at my fingertips"
    is a problem? "I'll send you an email with a copy of the sales
    order when I get home..."

    Or, are you just making the
    same error as above: maximizing convenience "just in case"??

    I was away last weekend but could work as if I was here.

    Did you?

    One individual's error is another individual's way of doing things.

    I think maybe you should get some glasses which, at the first hint of danger, turn totally black.
    This preventing you from seeing anything which might alarm you.

    Wow, /ad hominem/ attack. You must fear you are losing the argument on merits. Should I wish your network compromised by an attacker to be equally petty?

    No fear, here. Nor ignorance. OTOH, I have watched many "confident" folks find themselves hacked -- and wondering how it happened ("I was SO careful!")

    Dare yourself to hack your own network, product, etc. If you can't
    you aren't very expert on the types of knowledge you should have under your belt. Ask yourself what would happen if someone probed your network drops
    with a high-voltage coil. Ah, "physical access"...

    Or, if you don't want to subsidize your own learning, try to convince someone to *hire* you for said activity.

    I've never had a malware issue, well not since I accidentally put an unpatched Windows 2000 box on a raw connection and got
    nimda.
    Since it was a fresh install it didn't matter. It was quickly wiped.

    Then, RE-consider that!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Aug 23 22:21:49 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vabe2v$142d4$2@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 5:39 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    Would you, instead, like that to be conveyed to your ISP via your access point,
    over-the-air to your cell phone -- which you will have to access in order to
    "see" the scene? All those third-parties on which you will rely? >>>>>>
    What does my ISP have to do with packets traveling between devices on my LAN??

    Do you have a long cord connecting your LAN to the car as it approaches from
    down the street?

    Why would anyone need to see inside their garage as they approach from down the street??

    You don't -- unless the door doesn't want to open on your command. Here, >>> if that happened because SWMBO was digging through the freezer chest and >>> the dogs were at her feet, I would TELL her to get the dogs in the house >>> so I could pull in.

    How would you know in advance that the door wasn't going to open on your command?

    YOU DON'T! The *door* (house) does!

    How would you tell her? By phone? Isn't that inconvenient?

    *YOU* can't! *I* can! I have a button on the dash that connects me to
    the house via a "long range (1/2 mile) cordless phone". So, I can talk
    TO THE HOUSE (not to her) and tell *it* that I am on the way home -- adjust the HVAC, lighting and entertainment, accordingly. If I've been out shopping, maybe tell SWMBO (for me) that I am on my way and would appreciate some help unloading the car. Open the garage door BEFORE I get to the house and have to wait for it to completely open.

    If THE HOUSE realizes that it can't safely open the door, the HOUSE tells
    me.

    You have very clever houses in your area.
    I prefer to adjust the lighting when I'm at home, not from half a mile away.


    If the reason is "because someone/something has been detected IN
    the garage", then I have the option to view the overhead video (normally
    used as an aid in parking) to see the problem (maybe I forgot that I
    was working in the garage and neglected to put the saw horses away)
    or ASK WHOMEVER IS IN THE GARAGE if there is any reason they can't
    make the garage safe for my entrance -- or, should I park on the driveway?

    No need for cell phones. No need for third party services.

    Gee, can't you do that with your "I can work from any country" setup
    (I can phone the house and tell it that "I will be home in 27 minutes"
    and have it take those actions; can you?)

    I would put the freezer in the house and make sure the garage door is not obstructed by dogs or anything else.
    Problem solved.

    Bigger house. No pets. I guess that's a naive solution. Just tell
    folks to park in the street is even simpler!

    One neighbor took the side off his car by misjudging his position
    in the garage. Another neighbor leaves her car in the driveway for
    her husband to come out and pull it in. Damn near everyone has some
    hack in place to facilitate parking (tennis balls on strings,
    floor mounted wheel guides, etc.)

    I guess if you have a 4 car garage and/or a basement some of these problems can go away...

    Why would they need a garage door opener? Why would that opener need safety
    features? If the nose of your car hangs above the photoelectric sensors, >>> will the door KNOW this? Or, will it gladly close on your door, putting a >>> crease in your hood (when the over-current sensor on the motor detected the >>> "obstruction" -- BY TOUCH)?

    Sorry but I'm beginning to wonder whether you live on the same planet as me.

    Perhaps not. This is Earth. I see folks with rear windshield wipers torn off their cars because they left the back hatch open when pulling in/out
    of the garage. Door dings because they couldn't precisely navigate their position within the garage.

    I *watched* a neighbor RUN OVER his own child because the child ran to
    fetch a ball that had rolled under the car as the father was backing out.

    Yes, Earth is a tough place. Maybe it's nicer on Planet Fantasia...

    That's not under your control. My WiFi use *is* under my control -- I own the
    AP and the radio in the car. No one else can connect to those things.

    If the location which does my oil change is uploading my driving habits to the car manufacturer then I would certainly like to
    know
    about that.

    They don't have to. The CAR does it.

    By what means? Please describe the specific communication channel the car is using when it uploads my driving habits to the
    manufacturer.

    Ask your car *manufacturer* what bands they use.

    Is this the secret car communication network I'm not aware of?
    I think maybe I'll just park my car in a Faraday cage.

    Did you read the
    LexisNexis reference in the article YOU cited? Where do you think
    GM got the data for those drivers? Do you think they voluntarily
    filled out questionnaires:
    - In the past 6 months, how many times have you exceeded 88 MPH?
    - In the past 6 months, how many itme have you hard accelerated?
    - In the past 6 months, how many times have you failed to wear a seat belt?
    - In the past...

    They, as a service to you, will reset
    the "maintenance minder" (that the car controls based on mileage, habits, >>> etc.). The car *likely* would convey the event "Maintenance Minder Reset" >>> to the vendor.

    By what communication channel?

    See above. What do you think YOU are going to do about it?

    So, the vendor knows that SOMEONE serviced your vehicle
    (and they can easily determine that it wasn't the dealer -- because the
    dealer has no record of servicing your vehicle). Provide the GPS
    coordinates (available to the car at all times!)

    Jamming GPS isn't hard but we needn't go into that.

    Just don't tell the car that it has been serviced. It can tell if
    it has been refueled... but, not if it has had its oil changed,
    tires rotated, serpentine belt replaced, etc.

    [I can tell -- to a high degree of certainty -- if someone in my house took >>> a bath, shower, or shit (and, whether or not he washed his hands!), based on
    how long he was in the bathroom, the total volume of water consumed and its >>> rate of flow.]

    You must be popular with visitors.

    Goal is not to please visitors but to let the house assist aging occupants with retaining their independence for as long as possible. Delaying a
    half million -- million dollar "buy in" with $3-6K monthly maintenance
    for an extra year is worth a fair bit. Detecting a potential hazard
    ("Help, I've fallen and can't get up!") adds to that value.

    Folks NOT in that situation can benefit from the houses anticipation of their needs based on an analysis of their behaviors. Why have to *tell* all
    of the appliances in your house what you want? Why can't they WATCH to
    see how you've used them and infer that?



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Fri Aug 23 22:32:53 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vabe2r$142d4$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 5:14 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    But I don't see how an air-gapped network is a network.
    I would not be able to get anything done.

    If everything you need is IN that network, then why open it up to potential >>> adversaries?

    I don't have anything open to potential adversaries.

    Of course you do. You just don't THINK you do!

    I have scanners, printers, in-circuit-emulators, CAD/CAE
    systems, etc. all "a click away"

    So do I.

    So, then I guess MINE is a network, right?

    -- without ever leaving the confines of
    my home/office.

    I can use mine from any country I'm likely to be in.

    How do you place the documents in the scanner? Pick the pages up
    off the printer? Turn the power on to the DUT you are debugging
    with the ICE?

    If I need to find a datasheet, I can move to THIS machine, locate the
    datasheet, download it to a thumb drive and sneakernet it into the
    office. How often do you need to do *that*?

    Every few minutes, and I can do it all from where I sit, even if I go to another country.

    Really? How HUGE must your designs be to need you to spend all that
    time constantly downloading NEW datasheets? Do you ever READ any of them? How *trivial* are the designs if you are able to move on to MORE datasheets after "using" the previous ones?

    I came across an individual with three virus scanners installed a few days ago.
    I didn't bother giving advice, I just left them to waste hours running scans.
    I did ask when they last found a virus and was confidently told "never". >>>
    I have no such tools "installed", here.

    Same here. Just the default Microsoft scanner.

    Yet you allow updates -- to the OS? Apps? Even the malware scanner?

    Every 6 months, I pull the disk from
    this machine and check the disk pulled 6 months earlier with the "latest" >>> free AV scanner. This gives the tool vendor a chance to catch up with
    the latest exploits (a 6 month window) which a "current subscriber" can
    only HOPE to gain protection.

    I've never found anything. So, either the tools folks are using are
    ineffective -- or, my internet behavior is pro-actively robust.

    Well if you put yourself in prison you're not likely to be bothered by much from outside.

    Gee, I have far more design and personal freedom than any of my colleagues! And, have had such for decades, now. So much so that they have started "cutting the cord", as well.

    You are likely RELIANT on the outside world. Me? not so much.

    Of course you have a network. I have three 24-port switches in the office >>> (virtually all ports in use) and two 12's in my bedroom. Is this NOT a network
    because I can walk to all of the nodes?

    If a person has physical access to YOUR "network", then security is a moot >>> point. Even an encrypted drive is vulnerable -- I *steal* it and I've
    now effectively denied you service.

    Plenty of people have physical access to my network.
    Most of them wouldn't know a switch from a banana.
    Those who would are trusted people.
    Untrusted people who might know what a switch is are simply not allowed anywhere near my physical LAN.

    You've then confirmed my statement. Or, do you just not like folks
    to touch your things?

    You can come and stay, overnight, in my guest room. You can use either of the two drops, there, to access The Internet. You can look and see all of the devices wired in to the house -- yet can't interfere with any of them (let alone compromise any of them) without physically walking up to
    them and "damaging" them.

    Take a tesla coil and short it to the 8P8C's. Well, there goes YOUR
    internet access. But, nothing else (including the switches!) cares.

    I could be writing this post from one country today and another tomorrow. >>>
    As could I. By using any NNTP agent on any internet connected machine.
    Why does it have to be one of the machines on my air-gapped network?

    Because you'd have missed your flight by the time you find and install one and what if you need that data sheet you left on your
    office computer?

    If the datasheet CAME from The Internet, why can't I now relocate it
    ON The Internet?

    When you travel, do you not take a phone and/or laptop WITH you?
    Do the places you visit not have libraries and public access places?
    Do none of the colleagues/friends/businesses that you visit have
    laptops or workstations that they will let you use?

    NNTP, email, WWW are ubiquitous services. There's no need to
    burden yourself trying to support something "special".

    Sure you can download it but was that LT1234 or LT2341 or LTC1324? and what if you'd really like to have the LTSpice simulation
    you
    did at the office?

    If I was going to be away from the office long enough that something that I HADN'T PLANNED ON WORKING ON became significant, then I would be a piss poor worker.

    I was called home for a medical emergency. I grabbed my checkbook (so I would know what periodic bills were coming due along with the related
    paying methods), a laptop and copied some files onto it. The emergency dragged on for 3 months. I was never in need of anything that I didn't have with me *or* that I couldn't get using a neighbor's AP (my folks don't
    have internet service).

    I was even able to design the artwork for some "aprons" and "book bags"
    for the local library's volunteer organization and email the artwork to them.

    True, I was unable to replant the tree that toppled in the back yard during
    a storm that occurred while I was away. But, my *work* was unaffected.

    Having big projects makes it relatively easy to be able to work on *something*
    even if it wasn't what you may have originally planned.

    [The parts I tried to order this week are not here -- but, I can divert my time to creating more test cases for my gesture recognizer. Or, documenting the virtual memory interface in my RTOS. Or...]

    Countries I never go to (Mostly non-English speaking countries) are blocked inbound by pfsense.

    Wonderful. And you have to maintain that. Instead of doing "real work". >>
    LOL these people maintain it for me:
    https://www.maxmind.com/en/home

    They came over to your house to install it? And, the updates? And, rewrite special rules for your access? All for free??

    Your browser can be fingerprinted. They (the sites you visit) may not know >>> your *name* (yet) but, know that "you" are visiting site X, Y and Z. Are >>> you sure they aren't sharing information about your visits?

    Fairly sure yes. I can tell because You Tube doesn't offer relevant (or so it thinks) videos whenever I restart my browser.

    That's specious reasoning.

    "My house hasn't been burglarized so I *know* it is secure..."

    The same is true of most developers -- especially folks writing software. >>> Have someone pay you to break the design you just "finished" and you (and >>> they) will forever see your *design* efforts in a different light!

    How hard to you work at trying to identify conditions that can/will break >>> your design?

    Depends on what I'm designing and what it will be used for.

    Ah, so you only care about quality *sometimes*?

    [Do you think a 50 million LoC piece of software doesn't have tens of >>>>> thousands of latent bugs?? Bugs that can be identified, verified and >>>>> quantified without your ever being aware that this has happened?]

    Consider, carefully, what you really need access to outside of your own >>>>> physical domain.

    Oh I have, for a long time.
    So for me I can work from anywhere I might need to work from as if I was here, and all my files are here (not in any cloud).

    Thus they are all accessible -- to a determined adversary, as well.

    Only in Paranoia land.
    In reality they are accessible only to those who should have access.

    Ah! You should go to work for the government, banks, major corporations, etc.
    All the folks who seem to have "problems" with compromises -- as you seem to have a monopoly on "doing it right"! Amazing!

    Do you really *need* access to all that?

    Of course. Why shouldn't I work from anywhere as if I was here?

    That;s not the question I asked. *I* can work from anywhere. And, as indicated, above, have been forced to do so "in a moment's notice".

    The question is, what do you NEED to have access to.

    I have all of my tax records "online". My music catalog. My dead-tree library. Every project I've designed (and supporting documents and toolchains).

    If you are working on anything "of substance", you typically only
    need *that* workproduct and the reference documents that it relies
    upon.

    I keep a laptop with a few DTP tools (FrameMaker, Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.) for cases when I want to spend time preparing documentation while traveling. Another with CAD/EDA tools (and Acrobat) if I want to work on hardware designs. Another with a set of compiler suites if I plan on
    writing code. We have periodic offsites at various places around the country. Prior to departing, I decide what I want to spend my "idle"
    time working on and what I want to demo. This means one or two laptops
    get packed with my clothes.

    If I need to create a spreadsheet or other "ubiquitous" document, I
    can find SOME tool on one of my colleagues machines - without having
    to keep that on any/all of MINE!

    I can have immediate access to anything I might need to show a potential customer without needing to remember to copy it to my
    laptop.

    So, you don't have to "be prepared".

    I can have a quiet day in the library doing exactly the same work I do here with the same tools and the same data.
    I can work from a hotel room just as if I was here.

    And, how is that different from the examples I have given?

    Granted, I can't tell you how much I paid for a particular piece
    of equipment 4 years ago (as my tax records are not accessible
    remotely and I am not likely to WANT to take those out of the house).
    But, how often do you think having that data "at my fingertips"
    is a problem? "I'll send you an email with a copy of the sales
    order when I get home..."

    Or, are you just making the
    same error as above: maximizing convenience "just in case"??

    I was away last weekend but could work as if I was here.

    Did you?

    One individual's error is another individual's way of doing things.

    I think maybe you should get some glasses which, at the first hint of danger, turn totally black.
    This preventing you from seeing anything which might alarm you.

    Wow, /ad hominem/ attack.

    Actually just a quote from HHGTTG

    You must fear you are losing the argument on merits.
    Should I wish your network compromised by an attacker to be equally petty?

    No fear, here. Nor ignorance. OTOH, I have watched many "confident" folks find themselves hacked -- and wondering how it happened ("I was SO careful!")

    Dare yourself to hack your own network, product, etc. If you can't
    you aren't very expert on the types of knowledge you should have under your belt. Ask yourself what would happen if someone probed your network drops with a high-voltage coil. Ah, "physical access"...

    Or, if you don't want to subsidize your own learning, try to convince someone to *hire* you for said activity.

    I've never had a malware issue, well not since I accidentally put an unpatched Windows 2000 box on a raw connection and got
    nimda.
    Since it was a fresh install it didn't matter. It was quickly wiped.

    Then, RE-consider that!



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Sat Aug 24 06:04:17 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Aug 2024 11:55:35 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <vaabdo$4ht$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va98np$1jjlv$1@solani.org...
    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:31:24 -0700) it happened Don Y
    <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in <va877f$igok$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 8/22/2024 10:09 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    I use a Cisco 2802E (WiFi 6) to connect the instrumentation/interfaces in >>>the car to the house. Undoubtedly overkill... but, why use lead when gold >>>will suffice?

    (This, of course, because wires won't work! :> )

    If the house has a fixed IP address,
    then use a Huawei 4G stick as remote,
    gives you worldwide coverage.
    I can work via my website too,
    remote can upload to my site,
    house can read from my site
    and vice-versa
    No fixed IP needed.

    My house has a fixed IPv4 address (they tried to put me on lsn/cgnat but we needn't go into that).
    I use it for everything including Internet facing servers.
    Why would I need anything else?

    Long ago I had cable and sort of a fixed IP
    Servers were running here.
    Now I outsourced my website, as I moved house often, no cable, no interrupts as happened on cable,
    have a good steerable satellite dish for all you ever wanted to see..
    and the 4G Huawei sticks work all over Europe, at home and in my laptop, no WiFi needed anywhere.
    Also I am licenced radio ham, several local networks, shortwave, and a satellite link if I want
    No media censorship like we had on cable, can see programs from any country I want via satellite.
    When power goes, or in a war situation, my stuff will keep working.
    The website maybe not..
    I do think even with the cost of the website included I pay very little to what some people spend on media.
    Also much less work checking for hacks - something I had to do every day when running the site locally..
    panteltje.nl is still up and running...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Sat Aug 24 06:19:03 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Aug 2024 12:32:21 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <vaadim$1ot4$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:vaaafv$1jkec$1@solani.org...
    On a sunny day (Fri, 23 Aug 2024 10:44:44 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" >> <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <vaa78t$5jo$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va98fq$1j36c$1@solani.org...
    On a sunny day (Thu, 22 Aug 2024 13:09:56 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde"
    <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <va7rd4$14gv$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Jan Panteltje" <alien@comet.invalid> wrote in message news:va78n1$1ifd7$1@solani.org...
    About WiFi7



    https://www.electronicdesign.com/technologies/communications/wireless/wifi/article/55132520/skyworks-solutions-what-is-wi-fi-7-and-why-does-it-matter

    Anybody using this?
    https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/asus-rt-be58u-extendable-router-wifi-7-dual-band-aimesh-2-5g-poort/9300000183145514/


    My WZR-1750DHP DD-WRT wireless access points (WiFi 5) work fine for mobile devices and likely will for years to come.

    Anything serious uses wires.

    Yes, lots of POE ethernet here
    I have some Linksys routers / accesspoints too,
    but WiFi is not really safe AFAIK, so it is off normally.

    Pretty much everything is on all the time here.
    Servers have to be or they won't be serving.
    And why would I want to wait while Windows says "You will not turn off your computer for half an hour while I update".
    Windows boxes which are mostly turned off invariably spend the next hour installing updates when they are turned on.

    Networks are safe if configured properly whether wired or wifi.
    While it's not likely that an unauthorized user will be able to get directly on my LAN, that does not by itself mean that
    they
    could
    obtain information I don't want them to have.

    If you leave your systems off for anti hacking reasons then you have effectively caused a denial of service attack against
    yourself.

    You do not need WiFi if you have ethernet cables installed

    Sure you do. How is my phone going to be online?

    My phones are online via the local towers


    Cell tower access for Internet is not reliable here.

    Ah, that may be a good argument, over here in the Netherlands coverage is very good, things are moving to 5G now.



    I use wires for what can use wires and wifi for anything which cannot sensibly be on a wired connection such as a phone.
    All wired connections and wifi access points are on all the time.

    Someone else mentioned cars. I prefer to keep my car off wifi. No need for the car to use it.
    https://www.theregister.com/2024/08/14/texas_sues_general_motors/

    Yea, well in the current world I sort of assume everything about me is known by all agencies...
    When visiting some sites you get very personalized links, they know where I buy, what I use it seems.
    Browsers like Chromium and Firefox and cookies ... no idea what is all forwarded
    'remember your password' option? man., security is much of an illusion.
    Cameras everywhere...

    In China you are monitored all the time and get points for good behavior I've read

    Few more years and everybody has a chip implant at birth that controls you with pain signals if you violate the law or any rule
    Reward for doing things right causes a psychedelic experience ?
    Who needs drugs then...
    Now I am on chocolate....
    LOL

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sat Aug 24 01:54:27 2024
    On 8/23/2024 7:21 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    How would you tell her? By phone? Isn't that inconvenient?

    *YOU* can't! *I* can! I have a button on the dash that connects me to
    the house via a "long range (1/2 mile) cordless phone". So, I can talk
    TO THE HOUSE (not to her) and tell *it* that I am on the way home -- adjust >> the HVAC, lighting and entertainment, accordingly. If I've been out
    shopping, maybe tell SWMBO (for me) that I am on my way and would appreciate >> some help unloading the car. Open the garage door BEFORE I get to the house >> and have to wait for it to completely open.

    If THE HOUSE realizes that it can't safely open the door, the HOUSE tells
    me.

    You have very clever houses in your area.
    I prefer to adjust the lighting when I'm at home, not from half a mile away.

    Some day, you too, may be able to afford such a place! Maybe before you have to trade your home's equity (plus a bit?) to gain admission to a retirement home (and your life savings to pay your rent, while there).

    I prefer for technology to address all these mundane things -- for the same reason I have an alarm clock instead of relying on a rooster to wake me (roosters are only applicable if you want to be awakened at sunrise; alarm clocks are more customizable!)

    If the location which does my oil change is uploading my driving habits to the car manufacturer then I would certainly like to
    know
    about that.

    They don't have to. The CAR does it.

    By what means? Please describe the specific communication channel the car is using when it uploads my driving habits to the
    manufacturer.

    Ask your car *manufacturer* what bands they use.

    Is this the secret car communication network I'm not aware of?
    I think maybe I'll just park my car in a Faraday cage.

    You must have an old (or cheap) car. Most modern cars "talk" to their
    makers. I can "get help" or ask for specific directions to a location
    not present in my GPS's database by simply pushing a button.

    I suspect electric vehicles are even bigger "tattlers" -- esp with their software update needs...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 24 12:02:05 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vac74n$1b4rk$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 7:21 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    How would you tell her? By phone? Isn't that inconvenient?

    *YOU* can't! *I* can! I have a button on the dash that connects me to
    the house via a "long range (1/2 mile) cordless phone". So, I can talk
    TO THE HOUSE (not to her) and tell *it* that I am on the way home -- adjust >>> the HVAC, lighting and entertainment, accordingly. If I've been out
    shopping, maybe tell SWMBO (for me) that I am on my way and would appreciate
    some help unloading the car. Open the garage door BEFORE I get to the house
    and have to wait for it to completely open.

    If THE HOUSE realizes that it can't safely open the door, the HOUSE tells >>> me.

    You have very clever houses in your area.
    I prefer to adjust the lighting when I'm at home, not from half a mile away.

    Some day, you too, may be able to afford such a place! Maybe before you have to trade your home's equity (plus a bit?) to gain admission to a retirement home (and your life savings to pay your rent, while there).

    I prefer for technology to address all these mundane things -- for the same reason I have an alarm clock instead of relying on a rooster to wake me (roosters are only applicable if you want to be awakened at sunrise; alarm clocks are more customizable!)

    If the location which does my oil change is uploading my driving habits to the car manufacturer then I would certainly like
    to
    know
    about that.

    They don't have to. The CAR does it.

    By what means? Please describe the specific communication channel the car is using when it uploads my driving habits to the
    manufacturer.

    Ask your car *manufacturer* what bands they use.

    Is this the secret car communication network I'm not aware of?
    I think maybe I'll just park my car in a Faraday cage.

    You must have an old (or cheap) car.

    Most modern cars "talk" to their makers.

    So you keep saying but you never specify how.
    GPS is down only (no return path) so my car is not using GPS to talk to anyone but it could obviously send its location by other
    means.
    WiFi almost always needs a password or a captive portal agreement
    but when the car is in for service it would be possible for the service location to connect it to WiFi.
    Bluetooth is short range so it isn't talking to the makers.
    That leaves cell tower communication.

    If my car is using cell tower access to talk to its maker without me knowing then I want to know about that.
    Some cars do use cell tower communication, for example leased vehicles where the leasing company wants to track the car,
    but that would be in the leasing contract and only works where there are cell towers.

    Which if the above methods is the car using to talk to its maker?
    And when is it using that method? On the move or in service or at home or other?
    Does the car store information about my use of the car for later transmission to its maker?

    If you would be kind enough to answer in one paragraph instead of writing five paragraphs about something unrelated then I'm
    interested.

    It's fine if you don't know the answers. It's the kind of thing I would ask for, in writing, when I buy a new car.

    A quick look at my firewall log this morning shows that only https://www.abuseipdb.com/check-block/71.6.134.0/24
    is worth adding to my blacklist file.
    That took all of 30 seconds.

    I can now do some real work (from anywhere).

    Currently I'm trying to put together an LTSpice simulation of the circuit on the second to last page of the LTC4267 data sheet.
    I'm having difficulty with models for TLV431 and PS2911
    Does anyone know any such models or equivalent devices which have models?

    I can "get help" or ask for specific directions to a location
    not present in my GPS's database by simply pushing a button.

    I suspect electric vehicles are even bigger "tattlers" -- esp with their software update needs...

    Yes that could become a problem.
    I can't wait for "Car is installing updates. You will wait."
    So perhaps I'd prefer a Linux car.

    Happy retirement and good luck with the electric car in winter.




    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sat Aug 24 11:30:42 2024
    On 8/24/2024 9:02 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    They don't have to. The CAR does it.

    By what means? Please describe the specific communication channel the car is using when it uploads my driving habits to the
    manufacturer.

    Ask your car *manufacturer* what bands they use.

    Is this the secret car communication network I'm not aware of?
    I think maybe I'll just park my car in a Faraday cage.

    You must have an old (or cheap) car.

    Most modern cars "talk" to their makers.

    So you keep saying but you never specify how.

    Why do *I* have to figure it out -- are you too lazy to find an answer to
    your own question?

    READ the article you posted. Or, any of the other articles about folks
    being "profiled" for higher car insurance premiums because their
    driving habits were made available to LexisNexis (by GM).

    Ask yourself how GM got that information.

    Ask yourself how your car "knows" what the current traffic conditions
    are like. Do you think they have a special set of satellites flying
    to visually track traffic flow? or,m do you think the cars already
    on the road -- knowing exactly WHERE they are and their current
    speed -- are collaborating with <someone> to produce a live map of
    traffic conditions (that can then be sold -- as a service -- to
    those verysame folks as subscribers)

    Buy a Workshop Manual and dig through the vague module descriptions
    moving backwards from the antennae and see what you find.
    REMOVE those module(s) and see if your car keeps tattling.

    Or, *running*!

    GPS is down only (no return path) so my car is not using GPS to talk to anyone but it could obviously send its location by other
    means.
    WiFi almost always needs a password or a captive portal agreement
    but when the car is in for service it would be possible for the service location to connect it to WiFi.
    Bluetooth is short range so it isn't talking to the makers.
    That leaves cell tower communication.

    If my car is using cell tower access to talk to its maker without me knowing then I want to know about that.
    Some cars do use cell tower communication, for example leased vehicles where the leasing company wants to track the car,
    but that would be in the leasing contract and only works where there are cell towers.

    Which if the above methods is the car using to talk to its maker?
    And when is it using that method? On the move or in service or at home or other?
    Does the car store information about my use of the car for later transmission to its maker?

    If you would be kind enough to answer in one paragraph instead of writing five paragraphs about something unrelated then I'm
    interested.

    It's fine if you don't know the answers. It's the kind of thing I would ask for, in writing, when I buy a new car.

    A quick look at my firewall log this morning shows that only https://www.abuseipdb.com/check-block/71.6.134.0/24
    is worth adding to my blacklist file.
    That took all of 30 seconds.

    I can now do some real work (from anywhere).

    Currently I'm trying to put together an LTSpice simulation of the circuit on the second to last page of the LTC4267 data sheet.
    I'm having difficulty with models for TLV431 and PS2911
    Does anyone know any such models or equivalent devices which have models?

    I can "get help" or ask for specific directions to a location
    not present in my GPS's database by simply pushing a button.

    I suspect electric vehicles are even bigger "tattlers" -- esp with their
    software update needs...

    Yes that could become a problem.
    I can't wait for "Car is installing updates. You will wait."
    So perhaps I'd prefer a Linux car.

    Happy retirement and good luck with the electric car in winter.






    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 24 14:44:36 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vad8t7$1g6q4$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/24/2024 9:02 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    They don't have to. The CAR does it.

    By what means? Please describe the specific communication channel the car is using when it uploads my driving habits to the
    manufacturer.

    Ask your car *manufacturer* what bands they use.

    Is this the secret car communication network I'm not aware of?
    I think maybe I'll just park my car in a Faraday cage.

    You must have an old (or cheap) car.

    Most modern cars "talk" to their makers.

    So you keep saying but you never specify how.

    Why do *I* have to figure it out

    You don't. Like I said it's ok if you don't know.

    -- are you too lazy to find an answer to
    your own question?

    READ the article you posted. Or, any of the other articles about folks
    being "profiled" for higher car insurance premiums because their
    driving habits were made available to LexisNexis (by GM).

    Ask yourself how GM got that information.

    Ask yourself how your car "knows" what the current traffic conditions
    are like. Do you think they have a special set of satellites flying
    to visually track traffic flow? or,m do you think the cars already
    on the road -- knowing exactly WHERE they are and their current
    speed -- are collaborating with <someone> to produce a live map of
    traffic conditions (that can then be sold -- as a service -- to
    those verysame folks as subscribers)

    Buy a Workshop Manual and dig through the vague module descriptions
    moving backwards from the antennae and see what you find.
    REMOVE those module(s) and see if your car keeps tattling.

    Or, *running*!

    GPS is down only (no return path) so my car is not using GPS to talk to anyone but it could obviously send its location by other
    means.
    WiFi almost always needs a password or a captive portal agreement
    but when the car is in for service it would be possible for the service location to connect it to WiFi.
    Bluetooth is short range so it isn't talking to the makers.
    That leaves cell tower communication.

    If my car is using cell tower access to talk to its maker without me knowing then I want to know about that.
    Some cars do use cell tower communication, for example leased vehicles where the leasing company wants to track the car,
    but that would be in the leasing contract and only works where there are cell towers.

    Which if the above methods is the car using to talk to its maker?
    And when is it using that method? On the move or in service or at home or other?
    Does the car store information about my use of the car for later transmission to its maker?

    If you would be kind enough to answer in one paragraph instead of writing five paragraphs about something unrelated then I'm
    interested.

    It's fine if you don't know the answers. It's the kind of thing I would ask for, in writing, when I buy a new car.

    A quick look at my firewall log this morning shows that only
    https://www.abuseipdb.com/check-block/71.6.134.0/24
    is worth adding to my blacklist file.
    That took all of 30 seconds.

    I can now do some real work (from anywhere).

    Currently I'm trying to put together an LTSpice simulation of the circuit on the second to last page of the LTC4267 data sheet.
    I'm having difficulty with models for TLV431 and PS2911
    Does anyone know any such models or equivalent devices which have models?

    I can "get help" or ask for specific directions to a location
    not present in my GPS's database by simply pushing a button.

    I suspect electric vehicles are even bigger "tattlers" -- esp with their >>> software update needs...

    Yes that could become a problem.
    I can't wait for "Car is installing updates. You will wait."
    So perhaps I'd prefer a Linux car.

    Happy retirement and good luck with the electric car in winter.








    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to kevin_es@whitedigs.com on Sat Aug 24 15:43:36 2024
    "KevinJ93" <kevin_es@whitedigs.com> wrote in message news:vadbpe$1glti$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/24/24 9:02 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vac74n$1b4rk$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 7:21 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    How would you tell her? By phone? Isn't that inconvenient?

    *YOU* can't! *I* can! I have a button on the dash that connects me to >>>>> the house via a "long range (1/2 mile) cordless phone". So, I can talk >>>>> TO THE HOUSE (not to her) and tell *it* that I am on the way home -- adjust
    the HVAC, lighting and entertainment, accordingly. If I've been out >>>>> shopping, maybe tell SWMBO (for me) that I am on my way and would appreciate
    some help unloading the car. Open the garage door BEFORE I get to the house
    and have to wait for it to completely open.

    If THE HOUSE realizes that it can't safely open the door, the HOUSE tells >>>>> me.

    You have very clever houses in your area.
    I prefer to adjust the lighting when I'm at home, not from half a mile away.

    Some day, you too, may be able to afford such a place! Maybe before you have
    to trade your home's equity (plus a bit?) to gain admission to a retirement >>> home (and your life savings to pay your rent, while there).

    I prefer for technology to address all these mundane things -- for the same >>> reason I have an alarm clock instead of relying on a rooster to wake me
    (roosters are only applicable if you want to be awakened at sunrise; alarm >>> clocks are more customizable!)

    If the location which does my oil change is uploading my driving habits to the car manufacturer then I would certainly like
    to
    know
    about that.

    They don't have to. The CAR does it.

    By what means? Please describe the specific communication channel the car is using when it uploads my driving habits to the
    manufacturer.

    Ask your car *manufacturer* what bands they use.

    Is this the secret car communication network I'm not aware of?
    I think maybe I'll just park my car in a Faraday cage.

    You must have an old (or cheap) car.

    Most modern cars "talk" to their makers.

    So you keep saying but you never specify how.
    GPS is down only (no return path) so my car is not using GPS to talk to anyone but it could obviously send its location by other
    means.
    WiFi almost always needs a password or a captive portal agreement
    but when the car is in for service it would be possible for the service location to connect it to WiFi.
    Bluetooth is short range so it isn't talking to the makers.
    That leaves cell tower communication.

    If my car is using cell tower access to talk to its maker without me knowing then I want to know about that.
    Some cars do use cell tower communication, for example leased vehicles where the leasing company wants to track the car,
    but that would be in the leasing contract and only works where there are cell towers.

    Which if the above methods is the car using to talk to its maker?
    And when is it using that method? On the move or in service or at home or other?
    Does the car store information about my use of the car for later transmission to its maker?
    <...>

    Many modern cars have cellular capability that is not exposed to the user and just used for telemetry etc.

    Often it is not used for software updates, that requires a wifi connection.

    I assume the car manufacturer has some form of limited data transfer agreement with the cellular carrier.

    There is usually no monthly charge to the car owner for the basic serivce, it is covered by the manufacturer. If there are
    additional capability that also exploits the cellular link there may be a charge for that. For example on the Tesla there is a
    $10/month charge if you want audio streaming, real-time traffic information or improved map capabilities.

    kw


    Thank you for that information.

    When I buy a car I want to know exactly what data it will be transmitting over the cellular network,
    who it is transmitted to and what they are using the data for.
    If it's not possible to decline then I will consider a different manufacturer or even an older car.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From KevinJ93@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sat Aug 24 12:20:14 2024
    On 8/24/24 9:02 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vac74n$1b4rk$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/23/2024 7:21 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:

    How would you tell her? By phone? Isn't that inconvenient?

    *YOU* can't! *I* can! I have a button on the dash that connects me to >>>> the house via a "long range (1/2 mile) cordless phone". So, I can talk >>>> TO THE HOUSE (not to her) and tell *it* that I am on the way home -- adjust
    the HVAC, lighting and entertainment, accordingly. If I've been out
    shopping, maybe tell SWMBO (for me) that I am on my way and would appreciate
    some help unloading the car. Open the garage door BEFORE I get to the house
    and have to wait for it to completely open.

    If THE HOUSE realizes that it can't safely open the door, the HOUSE tells >>>> me.

    You have very clever houses in your area.
    I prefer to adjust the lighting when I'm at home, not from half a mile away.

    Some day, you too, may be able to afford such a place! Maybe before you have
    to trade your home's equity (plus a bit?) to gain admission to a retirement >> home (and your life savings to pay your rent, while there).

    I prefer for technology to address all these mundane things -- for the same >> reason I have an alarm clock instead of relying on a rooster to wake me
    (roosters are only applicable if you want to be awakened at sunrise; alarm >> clocks are more customizable!)

    If the location which does my oil change is uploading my driving habits to the car manufacturer then I would certainly like
    to
    know
    about that.

    They don't have to. The CAR does it.

    By what means? Please describe the specific communication channel the car is using when it uploads my driving habits to the
    manufacturer.

    Ask your car *manufacturer* what bands they use.

    Is this the secret car communication network I'm not aware of?
    I think maybe I'll just park my car in a Faraday cage.

    You must have an old (or cheap) car.

    Most modern cars "talk" to their makers.

    So you keep saying but you never specify how.
    GPS is down only (no return path) so my car is not using GPS to talk to anyone but it could obviously send its location by other
    means.
    WiFi almost always needs a password or a captive portal agreement
    but when the car is in for service it would be possible for the service location to connect it to WiFi.
    Bluetooth is short range so it isn't talking to the makers.
    That leaves cell tower communication.

    If my car is using cell tower access to talk to its maker without me knowing then I want to know about that.
    Some cars do use cell tower communication, for example leased vehicles where the leasing company wants to track the car,
    but that would be in the leasing contract and only works where there are cell towers.

    Which if the above methods is the car using to talk to its maker?
    And when is it using that method? On the move or in service or at home or other?
    Does the car store information about my use of the car for later transmission to its maker?
    <...>

    Many modern cars have cellular capability that is not exposed to the
    user and just used for telemetry etc.

    Often it is not used for software updates, that requires a wifi connection.

    I assume the car manufacturer has some form of limited data transfer
    agreement with the cellular carrier.

    There is usually no monthly charge to the car owner for the basic
    serivce, it is covered by the manufacturer. If there are additional
    capability that also exploits the cellular link there may be a charge
    for that. For example on the Tesla there is a $10/month charge if you
    want audio streaming, real-time traffic information or improved map capabilities.

    kw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sat Aug 24 14:04:52 2024
    On 8/24/2024 12:43 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    When I buy a car I want to know exactly what data it will be transmitting over the cellular network,
    who it is transmitted to and what they are using the data for.

    Good luck with that. Privacy laws (in the US) give you practically no real rights, in that regard. The Fine Print *may* tell you that "data is shared" but knowing what that data is AND being able to opt-out is a different story.

    If it's not possible to decline then I will consider a different manufacturer or even an older car.

    Sure, I'm looking for a '61 Continental, presently. But, that's no
    guarantee that I'll be "anonymous"... I'll still have to drive it
    to the DMV testing facility annually to ride the dyno -- and, they'll
    know how many miles I've driven. My insurer can require me to
    show up for an inspection of the odometer to ensure I remain qualified
    for the lower "low mileage" rate. My tires will betray the miles
    traveled and type of terrain. Ditto air filters. Remember, just because
    YOU can't deduce this information from these "bits of evidence",
    doesn't mean folks with access to big data can't!

    [Just like deducing whether someone shit, showered or bathed]

    Don't drive it "out in public" because license plate readers and
    traffic cameras can still track your travels, current whereabouts,
    rate of travel, any accidents you may be involved in, occupants,
    etc.

    And, that's not to say what "private individuals" are "collecting"
    about your public appearances and sharing without your knowledge
    or consent.

    [A buddy's wife "discovered" that his car was parked outside his previous girlfriend's house the day before their wedding. Was sharing that
    information "illegal"? He was parked on a public street so has no
    right to privacy, etc.]

    Even older cars tattle. It was not uncommon to get a speeding ticket
    for travel (over the course of hours!) on limited access "turnpikes"
    where your entry and exit times were recorded -- and the miles between
    *known* (hence your average speed). Is this not also true on the Autobahn?

    A college friend was busted because they noticed he was using an awful lot
    of electricity for ONE person (Think: grow farm).

    If you don't want data to leak, then you have to have TOTAL control over
    the services that you use. Not practical in the modern world.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sat Aug 24 17:11:41 2024
    "Don Y" <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote in message news:vadhua$1hhel$1@dont-email.me...
    On 8/24/2024 12:43 PM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    When I buy a car I want to know exactly what data it will be transmitting over the cellular network,
    who it is transmitted to and what they are using the data for.

    Good luck with that. Privacy laws (in the US) give you practically no real rights, in that regard.

    I'm not currently in the US. But not far away.

    The Fine Print *may* tell you that "data is shared"
    but knowing what that data is AND being able to opt-out is a different story.

    If it's not possible to decline then I will consider a different manufacturer or even an older car.

    Sure, I'm looking for a '61 Continental, presently. But, that's no
    guarantee that I'll be "anonymous"... I'll still have to drive it
    to the DMV testing facility annually to ride the dyno -- and, they'll
    know how many miles I've driven. My insurer can require me to
    show up for an inspection of the odometer to ensure I remain qualified
    for the lower "low mileage" rate. My tires will betray the miles
    traveled and type of terrain. Ditto air filters. Remember, just because
    YOU can't deduce this information from these "bits of evidence",
    doesn't mean folks with access to big data can't!

    [Just like deducing whether someone shit, showered or bathed]

    Don't drive it "out in public" because license plate readers and
    traffic cameras can still track your travels, current whereabouts,
    rate of travel, any accidents you may be involved in, occupants,
    etc.

    And, that's not to say what "private individuals" are "collecting"
    about your public appearances and sharing without your knowledge
    or consent.

    [A buddy's wife "discovered" that his car was parked outside his previous girlfriend's house the day before their wedding. Was sharing that information "illegal"? He was parked on a public street so has no
    right to privacy, etc.]

    Even older cars tattle. It was not uncommon to get a speeding ticket
    for travel (over the course of hours!) on limited access "turnpikes"
    where your entry and exit times were recorded -- and the miles between *known* (hence your average speed). Is this not also true on the Autobahn?

    A college friend was busted because they noticed he was using an awful lot
    of electricity for ONE person (Think: grow farm).

    If you don't want data to leak, then you have to have TOTAL control over
    the services that you use. Not practical in the modern world.



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 24 14:21:44 2024
    On 8/24/2024 12:20 PM, KevinJ93 wrote:
    Many modern cars have cellular capability that is not exposed to the user and just used for telemetry etc.

    It may, also, be exposed as "emergency services/roadside assistance" -- as in the case of OnStar.

    Often it is not used for software updates, that requires a wifi connection.

    There is no technical reason why it can't be as phones accept OTA pushes
    all the time. And, the car can take DAYS (if need be) to acquire all
    of the update before attempting to install any of it.

    I think, instead, the reasoning is that an update could *break* the car.
    So, you would want the car to be in a setting where it could be "restored" without pissing off the user. Likewise, where the update can be done in
    a controlled manner (instead of relying on some procedure that was
    remotely conceived). Patching a running system is difficult and
    requires the system to have been designed with that capability in mind,
    from the start.

    [When I was working on automotive control systems, only certain aspects
    of the system could be "patched" without physically replacing hardware.
    And, as these are distributed systems, the impact of one node changing while others haven't, yet, can be unpredictable.]

    I assume the car manufacturer has some form of limited data transfer agreement
    with the cellular carrier.

    Possible. I suspect something similar happens with remote KWHr meter reading and active load management.

    There is usually no monthly charge to the car owner for the basic serivce, it is covered by the manufacturer. If there are additional capability that also exploits the cellular link there may be a charge for that. For example on the Tesla there is a $10/month charge if you want audio streaming, real-time traffic information or improved map capabilities.

    Some connected services are quite costly. A fee for traffic updates.
    Another for in-car wifi. Another for roadside assistance. Another for preemptive/proactive maintenance, etc.

    <https://www.onstar.com/pricing>

    A simpler solution is just not to drive much! :>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)