• Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking for $500

    From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 4 13:05:37 2024
    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi to bring costs down:
    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope-to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies-on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sun Aug 4 17:24:47 2024
    On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:05:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi
    to bring costs down:
    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope-
    to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies- on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.

    A lot of exceptionally clever people who just spend their whole time
    trying to fuck things up for everybody else. Pity they can't turn their undeniable talents to making the world a better place. Life's hard enough
    as it is for most.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Aug 4 11:47:58 2024
    On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:05:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi to bring costs down:
    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope-to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies-on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.


    Sounds absurd. Decap an expensive chip, set it up to run and analyze
    things, then bang one selected 20nm-square fet (out of a billion) with
    focussed 600 nm light.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Sun Aug 4 14:23:35 2024
    "Cursitor Doom" <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in message news:v8odgv$5eme$1@dont-email.me...
    On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:05:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi
    to bring costs down:
    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope-
    to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies- on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    A fairly low quality article if you ask me.


    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.

    If you can get close enough to get sufficient physical access.
    Not a worry to most of us.


    A lot of exceptionally clever people who just spend their whole time
    trying to fuck things up for everybody else.

    If no-one did that, everything would be as fucked up as Windows 3.0/3.1/95

    Pity they can't turn their
    undeniable talents to making the world a better place.

    In this context, making the world a better place requires demonstating to hardware/software vendors that they can't just cobble
    something together and hope it's secure.

    Life's hard enough
    as it is for most.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Edward Rawde on Sun Aug 4 13:12:49 2024
    On 8/4/2024 11:23 AM, Edward Rawde wrote:
    In this context, making the world a better place requires demonstating to hardware/software vendors that they can't just cobble something together and hope it's secure.

    I suspect very few people have ever played RED/BLUE games in their careers
    (or in academia).

    You actually need to be *tasked* with "breaking something" in order to
    see all of its warts.

    Developers always make assumptions about how their products will be used
    and the sorts of "misuse" they THINK they need to guard against. But,
    users (and ABusers) aren't bound by those delusions. So, when a
    product encounters something out-of-the-ordinary, it often shits the
    bed. If you can convince it to shit the bed in a manner that can be exploited... <grin>

    Remember, YOU likely have addition limits imposed on what YOU would
    subject YOUR device to; there is nothing that forces someone else to
    similarly restrain themselves!

    So, you have to EXPLICITLY enforce any limitations in your hardware/software
    if you want to be SURE they won't be subverted (by an adversary or a sloppy developer!)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Don Y@21:1/5 to Don Y on Sun Aug 4 13:29:22 2024
    On 8/4/2024 1:12 PM, Don Y wrote:
    Remember, YOU likely have addition limits imposed on what YOU would
    subject YOUR device to; there is nothing that forces someone else to similarly restrain themselves!

    Great little exercise to illustrate this:
    - pretend you are locked out of your house; how do you get in?
    - pretend you are locked out of a SHELTER; how do you get it?
    - pretend you are locked out of your "enemy's" house...

    Note that the lengths to which you would go in each case tend
    to be ever increasing.

    What's more interesting is the *likely* fact that you can get
    into YOUR house without doing any physical damage (a constraint
    that others likely wouldn't observe)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Mon Aug 5 10:46:15 2024
    On 4/08/2024 11:05 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope-to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies-on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    I actually worked on a electron-microscope based electron beam tester in
    the late 1980's.

    We weren't proposing to offer EBIC - electron beam induced change -
    though we had on an earlier tester, and nobody had used it (probably
    because it can permanently mess up the chip).

    A laser-based microscope won't have the resolution to focus the beam on
    a specific transistor - and there were millions of transistors on the
    sort of chips we were expecting to test, even back then.

    Electron microscopes do offer better image resolution. Optical
    lithography now depends on a 14 nanometer wavelength light source - a
    300 nanometre wavelenght laser isn't in the hunt.

    And we expected that our customers would have access to the chip layout
    and schematic so that they would be able to work out which transistor
    did what.

    The hackers might well be able mess up the operation of the chips that
    they point their laser-beams at, but they won't be able to do it in any
    kind of systematic way.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com on Mon Aug 5 05:02:24 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 04 Aug 2024 11:47:58 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in <10jvajpdoabqm9dqkucn7oniu6116cu10t@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:05:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi to bring costs down:

    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope-to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies-on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.


    Sounds absurd. Decap an expensive chip, set it up to run and analyze
    things, then bang one selected 20nm-square fet (out of a billion) with >focussed 600 nm light.

    The way the article goes you just de-activate some checks for some short time We will see if they publish.
    Remote destruction of chips is easy with a strong EM field.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to invalid@invalid.invalid on Mon Aug 5 04:56:57 2024
    On a sunny day (Sun, 4 Aug 2024 14:23:35 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <v8ogv8$2435$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Cursitor Doom" <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in message news:v8odgv$5eme$1@dont-email.me...
    On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:05:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi
    to bring costs down:
    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope-
    to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies-
    on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    A fairly low quality article if you ask me.


    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.

    If you can get close enough to get sufficient physical access.
    Not a worry to most of us.

    I remember my hacking days, pay-TV cards was the thing those days,
    getting the encryption algo used was the target.
    Some country with the right equipment (or spies?) got it... And published it, on Usenet yes.
    That is how I started with Microchip PICs, those were in the cards.
    Then somebody (was it me? ;-) ) made a server that decoded for everybody in real time so you
    no longer needed the cards, just got the (ever changing key) from that server. Those guys got arrested ...
    All Linux and open source.
    alt.satellite.tv.europe ..

    Nothing is safe ..

    There are more fun things, I was reading somewhere yesterday that
    for secret communication in UK submarines the company that designed the system was outsourcing coding to Russia or Belarus.., were the coders were.
    Now that is hard to believe, but...
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/02/britains-nuclear-submarine-software-designed-russia-belarus/

    found via rt.com, do not normally read the telegraph
    Maybe I should...
    Could also be just creating commie fear, but still..
    https://www.rt.com/news/602089-uk-submarines-russian-software/
    if blocked try
    89.191.237.192
    There is more good info there

    Seems all is set up by that US military industrial complex and its puppets for an invasion into Iran,
    and a WW3.
    What choice does US have? Its bankrupt, its IQ is single digits,
    an now like 'enlist everybody to serve Uncle Sam'
    enlist everybody to serve Chameleon Harassment
    Auntie Kamala ?

    Well what is left will radiate..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Tue Aug 6 00:24:25 2024
    On 5/08/2024 3:02 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 04 Aug 2024 11:47:58 -0700) it happened John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in <10jvajpdoabqm9dqkucn7oniu6116cu10t@4ax.com>:

    On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:05:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid>
    wrote:

    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi to bring costs down:

    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope-to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies-on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.


    Sounds absurd. Decap an expensive chip, set it up to run and analyze
    things, then bang one selected 20nm-square fet (out of a billion) with
    focussed 600 nm light.

    The way the article goes you just de-activate some checks for some short time

    That does seem to be what the author of the article imagines to be on
    offer. It seems very unlikely to be something that the toys described
    could deliver.

    We will see if they publish.
    Remote destruction of chips is easy with a strong EM field.

    If the electromagnetic field were strong enough to induce destructive
    currents in the metal links across the chip this could be correct.

    It doesn't seem to be worth doing. Hitting them with a hammer works just
    as well, and it is lot cheaper.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Tue Aug 6 01:31:00 2024
    On 5/08/2024 2:56 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 4 Aug 2024 14:23:35 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in <v8ogv8$2435$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Cursitor Doom" <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in message news:v8odgv$5eme$1@dont-email.me...
    On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:05:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi >>>> to bring costs down:
    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope- >>> to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies- >>> on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    A fairly low quality article if you ask me.


    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.

    If you can get close enough to get sufficient physical access.
    Not a worry to most of us.

    I remember my hacking days, pay-TV cards was the thing those days,
    getting the encryption algo used was the target.
    Some country with the right equipment (or spies?) got it... And published it, on Usenet yes.
    That is how I started with Microchip PICs, those were in the cards.
    Then somebody (was it me? ;-) ) made a server that decoded for everybody in real time so you
    no longer needed the cards, just got the (ever changing key) from that server.
    Those guys got arrested ...
    All Linux and open source.
    alt.satellite.tv.europe ..

    Nothing is safe ..

    There are more fun things, I was reading somewhere yesterday that
    for secret communication in UK submarines the company that designed the system
    was outsourcing coding to Russia or Belarus.., were the coders were.
    Now that is hard to believe, but...
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/02/britains-nuclear-submarine-software-designed-russia-belarus/

    found via rt.com, do not normally read the telegraph
    Maybe I should...
    Could also be just creating commie fear, but still..
    https://www.rt.com/news/602089-uk-submarines-russian-software/
    if blocked try
    89.191.237.192
    There is more good info there

    Probably not. The Daily Telegraph is about as closely connected to
    reality as Russia Today.

    Seems all is set up by that US military industrial complex and its puppets for an invasion into Iran,
    and a WW3.

    Why on earth would the US want to invade Iran? The ayatollahs of Iran
    are wrecking their country quite as effectively as the religious right
    is wrecking America.

    What choice does US have? Its bankrupt, its IQ is single digits,
    an now like 'enlist everybody to serve Uncle Sam'
    enlist everybody to serve Chameleon Harassment
    Auntie Kamala ?

    Well what is left will radiate..

    Probably not. Getting a nuclear weapon to actually explode needs more
    than a single digit IQ.

    The Americans rely on John Larkin's laser timing hardware for their
    Nuclear Ignition Facility.

    Unsurprisingly, the results are erratic. John Larkin thinks that Donald
    Trump has "common sense". One has to wonder how the Ayatollahs selected
    their hardware experts, and what absurd things they insisted they
    believe before they let them work on their nuclear weapons.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney



    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 5 16:46:51 2024
    On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 01:31:00 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 5/08/2024 2:56 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 4 Aug 2024 14:23:35 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" >> <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <v8ogv8$2435$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Cursitor Doom" <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in message news:v8odgv$5eme$1@dont-email.me...
    On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:05:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi >>>>> to bring costs down:
    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope- >>>> to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies- >>>> on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main

    A fairly low quality article if you ask me.


    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.

    If you can get close enough to get sufficient physical access.
    Not a worry to most of us.

    I remember my hacking days, pay-TV cards was the thing those days,
    getting the encryption algo used was the target.
    Some country with the right equipment (or spies?) got it... And published it,
    on Usenet yes.
    That is how I started with Microchip PICs, those were in the cards.
    Then somebody (was it me? ;-) ) made a server that decoded for everybody in real time so you
    no longer needed the cards, just got the (ever changing key) from that server.
    Those guys got arrested ...
    All Linux and open source.
    alt.satellite.tv.europe ..

    Nothing is safe ..

    There are more fun things, I was reading somewhere yesterday that
    for secret communication in UK submarines the company that designed the system
    was outsourcing coding to Russia or Belarus.., were the coders were.
    Now that is hard to believe, but...
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/02/britains-nuclear-submarine-software-designed-russia-belarus/

    found via rt.com, do not normally read the telegraph
    Maybe I should...
    Could also be just creating commie fear, but still..
    https://www.rt.com/news/602089-uk-submarines-russian-software/
    if blocked try
    89.191.237.192
    There is more good info there

    Probably not. The Daily Telegraph is about as closely connected to
    reality as Russia Today.

    Seems all is set up by that US military industrial complex and its puppets for an invasion into Iran,
    and a WW3.

    Why on earth would the US want to invade Iran? The ayatollahs of Iran
    are wrecking their country quite as effectively as the religious right
    is wrecking America.

    What choice does US have? Its bankrupt, its IQ is single digits,
    an now like 'enlist everybody to serve Uncle Sam'
    enlist everybody to serve Chameleon Harassment
    Auntie Kamala ?

    Well what is left will radiate..

    Probably not. Getting a nuclear weapon to actually explode needs more
    than a single digit IQ.

    The Americans rely on John Larkin's laser timing hardware for their
    Nuclear Ignition Facility.


    The real tragedy is that the 192 big lasers are modulated in quads,
    groups of four, so we only got to sell 48 modulator chassis, plus some
    spares.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to John Larkin on Tue Aug 6 17:06:09 2024
    On 6/08/2024 9:46 am, John Larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 6 Aug 2024 01:31:00 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    On 5/08/2024 2:56 pm, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sun, 4 Aug 2024 14:23:35 -0400) it happened "Edward Rawde" >>> <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote in
    <v8ogv8$2435$1@nnrp.usenet.blueworldhosting.com>:

    "Cursitor Doom" <cd999666@notformail.com> wrote in message news:v8odgv$5eme$1@dont-email.me...
    On Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:05:37 GMT, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    Hackers hope to democratize laser-based processor hacking -
    a $500 RayV Lite relies on 3D printing, a laser pen, and a Raspberry Pi >>>>>> to bring costs down:
    https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-industry/cyber-security/hackers-hope-
    to-democratize-laser-based-processor-hacking-dollar500-rayv-lite-relies- >>>>> on-3d-printing-a-laser-pen-and-a-raspberry-pi-to-bring-costs-down#main >>>>
    A fairly low quality article if you ask me.


    Nothing is safe:-)
    Seems a cool way to bypass security stuff.
    Gotta try my laser on a working chip.

    If you can get close enough to get sufficient physical access.
    Not a worry to most of us.

    I remember my hacking days, pay-TV cards was the thing those days,
    getting the encryption algo used was the target.
    Some country with the right equipment (or spies?) got it... And published it,
    on Usenet yes.
    That is how I started with Microchip PICs, those were in the cards.
    Then somebody (was it me? ;-) ) made a server that decoded for everybody in real time so you
    no longer needed the cards, just got the (ever changing key) from that server.
    Those guys got arrested ...
    All Linux and open source.
    alt.satellite.tv.europe ..

    Nothing is safe ..

    There are more fun things, I was reading somewhere yesterday that
    for secret communication in UK submarines the company that designed the system
    was outsourcing coding to Russia or Belarus.., were the coders were.
    Now that is hard to believe, but...
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/02/britains-nuclear-submarine-software-designed-russia-belarus/

    found via rt.com, do not normally read the telegraph
    Maybe I should...
    Could also be just creating commie fear, but still..
    https://www.rt.com/news/602089-uk-submarines-russian-software/
    if blocked try
    89.191.237.192
    There is more good info there

    Probably not. The Daily Telegraph is about as closely connected to
    reality as Russia Today.

    Seems all is set up by that US military industrial complex and its puppets for an invasion into Iran,
    and a WW3.

    Why on earth would the US want to invade Iran? The ayatollahs of Iran
    are wrecking their country quite as effectively as the religious right
    is wrecking America.

    What choice does US have? Its bankrupt, its IQ is single digits,
    an now like 'enlist everybody to serve Uncle Sam'
    enlist everybody to serve Chameleon Harassment
    Auntie Kamala ?

    Well what is left will radiate..

    Probably not. Getting a nuclear weapon to actually explode needs more
    than a single digit IQ.

    The Americans rely on John Larkin's laser timing hardware for their
    Nuclear Ignition Facility.

    John Larkin has made an unmarked snip here, which took out the bit the post that should have made it clear that this was part of an absurd proposition
    that I was using to send up Jan Panteltje.

    The real tragedy is that the 192 big lasers are modulated in quads,
    groups of four, so we only got to sell 48 modulator chassis, plus some spares.

    How disappointing. Maybe if you had pirated an even earlier - and even
    more inappropriate - Hewlett-Packard concept, they might have bought more.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney



    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)