• The emitter-coupled monostable as slow differential amplifer

    From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 20 15:29:58 2024
    About a month ago John Larkin dismissed the emitter coupled monostable
    with "It's really a slow diffamp, not a one-shot."

    If you feed a really slow pulse into it, it can look that way.
    The 3.3pf capacitor at C1 doesn't feed through much current if you drive
    the input with a slow edge

    The simulation below demonstrates it working exactly that way.

    No sensible circuit designer would deliberately drive it with a very
    slowly rising and falling pulse - if you want it to work as a
    monostable pulse stretcher, you have to drive it with a pulse that is
    narrower than the one you want to get out.

    Integrated circuit monostables don't have that limitation, but they are
    more complicated, and slower. There was an ECL monostable that went down
    to 10nsec, but the emitter-coupled monostable lets you get down to
    1nsec, if you use it right.

    Version 4
    SHEET 1 3104 1040
    WIRE -592 -720 -768 -720
    WIRE 128 -720 -592 -720
    WIRE 304 -720 128 -720
    WIRE 768 -720 304 -720
    WIRE 976 -720 768 -720
    WIRE 1488 -576 1488 -720
    WIRE 128 -560 128 -720
    WIRE 304 -560 304 -720
    WIRE 768 -560 768 -720
    WIRE -592 -384 -592 -720
    WIRE 1072 -368 1072 -400
    WIRE 768 -320 768 -480
    WIRE 960 -320 768 -320
    WIRE 1008 -320 960 -320
    WIRE 128 -288 128 -480
    WIRE 176 -288 128 -288
    WIRE 576 -288 240 -288
    WIRE 768 -208 768 -320
    WIRE 304 -160 304 -480
    WIRE 400 -160 304 -160
    WIRE 576 -160 576 -288
    WIRE 576 -160 480 -160
    WIRE 640 -160 576 -160
    WIRE 704 -160 640 -160
    WIRE -768 -64 -768 -720
    WIRE 128 48 128 -288
    WIRE -272 96 -432 96
    WIRE 64 96 -192 96
    WIRE 640 128 640 -160
    WIRE 304 160 304 -160
    WIRE -432 240 -432 96
    WIRE -768 416 -768 16
    WIRE -768 416 -880 416
    WIRE -736 416 -768 416
    WIRE -592 416 -592 -320
    WIRE -592 416 -736 416
    WIRE -496 416 -592 416
    WIRE -432 416 -432 320
    WIRE -432 416 -496 416
    WIRE 640 416 640 208
    WIRE 640 416 -432 416
    WIRE 1072 416 640 416
    WIRE 128 464 128 144
    WIRE 768 464 768 -112
    WIRE 768 464 128 464
    WIRE -880 496 -880 416
    WIRE 768 496 768 464
    WIRE -736 640 -736 416
    WIRE -496 640 -496 416
    WIRE -736 656 -736 640
    WIRE -736 944 -736 720
    WIRE -496 944 -496 704
    WIRE -496 944 -736 944
    WIRE 304 944 304 240
    WIRE 304 944 -496 944
    WIRE 768 944 768 576
    WIRE 768 944 304 944
    WIRE 1760 944 768 944
    FLAG -880 496 0
    FLAG 960 -320 out
    SYMBOL npn 64 48 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value BFR92A
    SYMBOL npn 704 -208 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q2
    SYMATTR Value BFR92A
    SYMBOL voltage -768 -80 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 24 44 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMATTR Value 5.0
    SYMBOL voltage -736 624 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 24 44 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR InstName V2
    SYMATTR Value 4.5
    SYMBOL voltage -432 224 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName V3
    SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 0.2 1n 100n 100n 100p 500n 2)
    SYMBOL res -176 80 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 22
    SYMBOL res 752 480 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 360
    SYMBOL res 112 -576 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R4
    SYMATTR Value 180
    SYMBOL res 624 112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R5
    SYMATTR Value 43
    SYMBOL res 752 -576 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R6
    SYMATTR Value 180
    SYMBOL res 288 -576 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 1k
    SYMBOL cap 240 -304 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 3.3p
    SYMBOL res 288 144 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R7
    SYMATTR Value 1k5
    SYMBOL res 496 -176 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R13
    SYMATTR Value 43
    SYMBOL cap -608 -384 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C3
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    SYMBOL cap -512 640 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C4
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    TEXT -272 1000 Left 2 !.model BFR92A NPN(IS=0.1213E-15 VAF=30 BF=94.73 IKF=0.46227 XTB=0 BR=10.729 CJC=946.47E-15 CJE=10.416E-15 TR=1.2744E-9 TF=26.796E-12 ITF=0.0044601 VTF=0.32861 XTF=0.3817 RB=14.998
    RC=0.13793 RE=0.29088 Vceo=15 Icrating=4m mfg=Infineon)
    TEXT -904 1024 Left 2 !.tran 0 1u 0

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

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  • From boB@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 19 23:56:25 2024
    On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 15:29:58 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    About a month ago John Larkin dismissed the emitter coupled monostable
    with "It's really a slow diffamp, not a one-shot."

    If you feed a really slow pulse into it, it can look that way.
    The 3.3pf capacitor at C1 doesn't feed through much current if you drive
    the input with a slow edge

    The simulation below demonstrates it working exactly that way.

    No sensible circuit designer would deliberately drive it with a very
    slowly rising and falling pulse - if you want it to work as a
    monostable pulse stretcher, you have to drive it with a pulse that is >narrower than the one you want to get out.

    Integrated circuit monostables don't have that limitation, but they are
    more complicated, and slower. There was an ECL monostable that went down
    to 10nsec, but the emitter-coupled monostable lets you get down to
    1nsec, if you use it right.

    Version 4
    SHEET 1 3104 1040
    WIRE -592 -720 -768 -720
    WIRE 128 -720 -592 -720
    WIRE 304 -720 128 -720
    WIRE 768 -720 304 -720
    WIRE 976 -720 768 -720
    WIRE 1488 -576 1488 -720
    WIRE 128 -560 128 -720
    WIRE 304 -560 304 -720
    WIRE 768 -560 768 -720
    WIRE -592 -384 -592 -720
    WIRE 1072 -368 1072 -400
    WIRE 768 -320 768 -480
    WIRE 960 -320 768 -320
    WIRE 1008 -320 960 -320
    WIRE 128 -288 128 -480
    WIRE 176 -288 128 -288
    WIRE 576 -288 240 -288
    WIRE 768 -208 768 -320
    WIRE 304 -160 304 -480
    WIRE 400 -160 304 -160
    WIRE 576 -160 576 -288
    WIRE 576 -160 480 -160
    WIRE 640 -160 576 -160
    WIRE 704 -160 640 -160
    WIRE -768 -64 -768 -720
    WIRE 128 48 128 -288
    WIRE -272 96 -432 96
    WIRE 64 96 -192 96
    WIRE 640 128 640 -160
    WIRE 304 160 304 -160
    WIRE -432 240 -432 96
    WIRE -768 416 -768 16
    WIRE -768 416 -880 416
    WIRE -736 416 -768 416
    WIRE -592 416 -592 -320
    WIRE -592 416 -736 416
    WIRE -496 416 -592 416
    WIRE -432 416 -432 320
    WIRE -432 416 -496 416
    WIRE 640 416 640 208
    WIRE 640 416 -432 416
    WIRE 1072 416 640 416
    WIRE 128 464 128 144
    WIRE 768 464 768 -112
    WIRE 768 464 128 464
    WIRE -880 496 -880 416
    WIRE 768 496 768 464
    WIRE -736 640 -736 416
    WIRE -496 640 -496 416
    WIRE -736 656 -736 640
    WIRE -736 944 -736 720
    WIRE -496 944 -496 704
    WIRE -496 944 -736 944
    WIRE 304 944 304 240
    WIRE 304 944 -496 944
    WIRE 768 944 768 576
    WIRE 768 944 304 944
    WIRE 1760 944 768 944
    FLAG -880 496 0
    FLAG 960 -320 out
    SYMBOL npn 64 48 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value BFR92A
    SYMBOL npn 704 -208 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q2
    SYMATTR Value BFR92A
    SYMBOL voltage -768 -80 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 24 44 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMATTR Value 5.0
    SYMBOL voltage -736 624 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 24 44 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR InstName V2
    SYMATTR Value 4.5
    SYMBOL voltage -432 224 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName V3
    SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 0.2 1n 100n 100n 100p 500n 2)
    SYMBOL res -176 80 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 22
    SYMBOL res 752 480 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 360
    SYMBOL res 112 -576 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R4
    SYMATTR Value 180
    SYMBOL res 624 112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R5
    SYMATTR Value 43
    SYMBOL res 752 -576 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R6
    SYMATTR Value 180
    SYMBOL res 288 -576 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 1k
    SYMBOL cap 240 -304 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 3.3p
    SYMBOL res 288 144 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R7
    SYMATTR Value 1k5
    SYMBOL res 496 -176 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R13
    SYMATTR Value 43
    SYMBOL cap -608 -384 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C3
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    SYMBOL cap -512 640 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C4
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    TEXT -272 1000 Left 2 !.model BFR92A NPN(IS=0.1213E-15 VAF=30 BF=94.73 >IKF=0.46227 XTB=0 BR=10.729 CJC=946.47E-15 CJE=10.416E-15 TR=1.2744E-9 >TF=26.796E-12 ITF=0.0044601 VTF=0.32861 XTF=0.3817 RB=14.998
    RC=0.13793 RE=0.29088 Vceo=15 Icrating=4m mfg=Infineon)
    TEXT -904 1024 Left 2 !.tran 0 1u 0

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    Which LTspice version are you using ? These .asc files always seem to
    show version 4 at the top but there have been many after that.

    Version 24 says it does not know the schematic syntax of these lines:


    IKF=0.46227 XTB=0 BR=10.729 CJC=946.47E-15 CJE=10.416E-15
    TR=1.2744E-9
    TF=26.796E-12 ITF=0.0044601 VTF=0.32861 XTF=0.3817 RB=14.998
    RC=0.13793 RE=0.29088 Vceo=15 Icrating=4m mfg=Infineon)

    I remove those and it is an incomplete schematic.

    I keep my old LTspice install exe's but just using 24 now

    boB

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  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to boB on Sat Jul 20 20:38:06 2024
    On 20/07/2024 4:56 pm, boB wrote:
    On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 15:29:58 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    About a month ago John Larkin dismissed the emitter coupled monostable
    with "It's really a slow diffamp, not a one-shot."

    If you feed a really slow pulse into it, it can look that way.
    The 3.3pf capacitor at C1 doesn't feed through much current if you drive
    the input with a slow edge

    The simulation below demonstrates it working exactly that way.

    No sensible circuit designer would deliberately drive it with a very
    slowly rising and falling pulse - if you want it to work as a
    monostable pulse stretcher, you have to drive it with a pulse that is
    narrower than the one you want to get out.

    Integrated circuit monostables don't have that limitation, but they are
    more complicated, and slower. There was an ECL monostable that went down
    to 10nsec, but the emitter-coupled monostable lets you get down to
    1nsec, if you use it right.

    Version 4
    SHEET 1 3104 1040
    WIRE -592 -720 -768 -720
    WIRE 128 -720 -592 -720
    WIRE 304 -720 128 -720
    WIRE 768 -720 304 -720
    WIRE 976 -720 768 -720
    WIRE 1488 -576 1488 -720
    WIRE 128 -560 128 -720
    WIRE 304 -560 304 -720
    WIRE 768 -560 768 -720
    WIRE -592 -384 -592 -720
    WIRE 1072 -368 1072 -400
    WIRE 768 -320 768 -480
    WIRE 960 -320 768 -320
    WIRE 1008 -320 960 -320
    WIRE 128 -288 128 -480
    WIRE 176 -288 128 -288
    WIRE 576 -288 240 -288
    WIRE 768 -208 768 -320
    WIRE 304 -160 304 -480
    WIRE 400 -160 304 -160
    WIRE 576 -160 576 -288
    WIRE 576 -160 480 -160
    WIRE 640 -160 576 -160
    WIRE 704 -160 640 -160
    WIRE -768 -64 -768 -720
    WIRE 128 48 128 -288
    WIRE -272 96 -432 96
    WIRE 64 96 -192 96
    WIRE 640 128 640 -160
    WIRE 304 160 304 -160
    WIRE -432 240 -432 96
    WIRE -768 416 -768 16
    WIRE -768 416 -880 416
    WIRE -736 416 -768 416
    WIRE -592 416 -592 -320
    WIRE -592 416 -736 416
    WIRE -496 416 -592 416
    WIRE -432 416 -432 320
    WIRE -432 416 -496 416
    WIRE 640 416 640 208
    WIRE 640 416 -432 416
    WIRE 1072 416 640 416
    WIRE 128 464 128 144
    WIRE 768 464 768 -112
    WIRE 768 464 128 464
    WIRE -880 496 -880 416
    WIRE 768 496 768 464
    WIRE -736 640 -736 416
    WIRE -496 640 -496 416
    WIRE -736 656 -736 640
    WIRE -736 944 -736 720
    WIRE -496 944 -496 704
    WIRE -496 944 -736 944
    WIRE 304 944 304 240
    WIRE 304 944 -496 944
    WIRE 768 944 768 576
    WIRE 768 944 304 944
    WIRE 1760 944 768 944
    FLAG -880 496 0
    FLAG 960 -320 out
    SYMBOL npn 64 48 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q1
    SYMATTR Value BFR92A
    SYMBOL npn 704 -208 R0
    SYMATTR InstName Q2
    SYMATTR Value BFR92A
    SYMBOL voltage -768 -80 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 24 44 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR InstName V1
    SYMATTR Value 5.0
    SYMBOL voltage -736 624 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 24 44 Left 2
    SYMATTR SpiceLine Rser=0.1
    SYMATTR InstName V2
    SYMATTR Value 4.5
    SYMBOL voltage -432 224 R0
    WINDOW 123 0 0 Left 2
    WINDOW 39 0 0 Left 2
    SYMATTR InstName V3
    SYMATTR Value PULSE(0 0.2 1n 100n 100n 100p 500n 2)
    SYMBOL res -176 80 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R1
    SYMATTR Value 22
    SYMBOL res 752 480 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R3
    SYMATTR Value 360
    SYMBOL res 112 -576 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R4
    SYMATTR Value 180
    SYMBOL res 624 112 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R5
    SYMATTR Value 43
    SYMBOL res 752 -576 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R6
    SYMATTR Value 180
    SYMBOL res 288 -576 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R2
    SYMATTR Value 1k
    SYMBOL cap 240 -304 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 32 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 32 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName C1
    SYMATTR Value 3.3p
    SYMBOL res 288 144 R0
    SYMATTR InstName R7
    SYMATTR Value 1k5
    SYMBOL res 496 -176 R90
    WINDOW 0 0 56 VBottom 2
    WINDOW 3 32 56 VTop 2
    SYMATTR InstName R13
    SYMATTR Value 43
    SYMBOL cap -608 -384 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C3
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    SYMBOL cap -512 640 R0
    SYMATTR InstName C4
    SYMATTR Value 10n
    TEXT -272 1000 Left 2 !.model BFR92A NPN(IS=0.1213E-15 VAF=30 BF=94.73
    IKF=0.46227 XTB=0 BR=10.729 CJC=946.47E-15 CJE=10.416E-15 TR=1.2744E-9
    TF=26.796E-12 ITF=0.0044601 VTF=0.32861 XTF=0.3817 RB=14.998
    RC=0.13793 RE=0.29088 Vceo=15 Icrating=4m mfg=Infineon)
    TEXT -904 1024 Left 2 !.tran 0 1u 0

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    Which LTspice version are you using ? These .asc files always seem to
    show version 4 at the top but there have been many after that.

    LTSpice 17.1 - freshly up-loaded just before I ran the sim.

    Version 24 says it does not know the schematic syntax of these lines:


    IKF=0.46227 XTB=0 BR=10.729 CJC=946.47E-15 CJE=10.416E-15
    TR=1.2744E-9
    TF=26.796E-12 ITF=0.0044601 VTF=0.32861 XTF=0.3817 RB=14.998
    RC=0.13793 RE=0.29088 Vceo=15 Icrating=4m mfg=Infineon)

    That's from the Gummel-Poon model for the BFR92A. which has got an ft of
    5GHz - fast enough to let you make a 1sec wide pulse.

    I remove those and it is an incomplete schematic.

    Taking out the carriage returns might have been a better approach. In
    effect you'd taken a chunk out of a Spice directive, including the
    closing bracket, which would obviously mess up the syntax.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    I keep my old LTspice install exe's but just using 24 now

    boB


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  • From Michael Schwingen@21:1/5 to boB on Sat Jul 20 11:24:14 2024
    On 2024-07-20, boB <boB@K7IQ.com> wrote:

    Version 24 says it does not know the schematic syntax of these lines:


    IKF=0.46227 XTB=0 BR=10.729 CJC=946.47E-15 CJE=10.416E-15
    TR=1.2744E-9
    TF=26.796E-12 ITF=0.0044601 VTF=0.32861 XTF=0.3817 RB=14.998
    RC=0.13793 RE=0.29088 Vceo=15 Icrating=4m mfg=Infineon)

    Your newsreader probably wrapped the lines - these need to be all in one
    line, until the next TEXT.

    cu
    Michael
    --
    Some people have no respect of age unless it is bottled.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 20 14:04:10 2024
    On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 15:29:58 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    About a month ago John Larkin dismissed the emitter coupled monostable
    with "It's really a slow diffamp, not a one-shot."

    If you feed a really slow pulse into it, it can look that way.
    The 3.3pf capacitor at C1 doesn't feed through much current if you drive
    the input with a slow edge

    The simulation below demonstrates it working exactly that way.

    No sensible circuit designer would deliberately drive it with a very
    slowly rising and falling pulse - if you want it to work as a
    monostable pulse stretcher, you have to drive it with a pulse that is >narrower than the one you want to get out.

    Integrated circuit monostables don't have that limitation, but they are
    more complicated, and slower. There was an ECL monostable that went down
    to 10nsec, but the emitter-coupled monostable lets you get down to
    1nsec, if you use it right.


    That wasn't my point. My comment wasn't about the trigger risetime but
    that if you put in a long trigger, you get a long output. It's hardly
    a one-shot. The input and output levels are weird too.

    If course a proper one-shot should fire cleanly on a fast or slow
    rising edge.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/idliehdrx7dr5fnffr4f9/28S505A.pdf?rlkey=gkmhx0r2fe4clu4qf98qoig03&dl=0

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Jul 21 13:22:55 2024
    On 21/07/2024 7:04 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 15:29:58 +1000, Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
    wrote:

    About a month ago John Larkin dismissed the emitter coupled monostable
    with "It's really a slow diffamp, not a one-shot."

    If you feed a really slow pulse into it, it can look that way.
    The 3.3pf capacitor at C1 doesn't feed through much current if you drive
    the input with a slow edge

    The simulation below demonstrates it working exactly that way.

    No sensible circuit designer would deliberately drive it with a very
    slowly rising and falling pulse - if you want it to work as a
    monostable pulse stretcher, you have to drive it with a pulse that is
    narrower than the one you want to get out.

    Integrated circuit monostables don't have that limitation, but they are
    more complicated, and slower. There was an ECL monostable that went down
    to 10nsec, but the emitter-coupled monostable lets you get down to
    1nsec, if you use it right.


    That wasn't my point. My comment wasn't about the trigger risetime but
    that if you put in a long trigger, you get a long output. It's hardly
    a one-shot. The input and output levels are weird too.

    The emitter-coupled monostable has been around for ages, and it's
    limitations have been well-known for just as long.

    If course a proper one-shot should fire cleanly on a fast or slow
    rising edge.

    Sadly, proper one-shots can't produce a 1nsec wide pulse. If you need
    that, you have to settle for a less-than-proper one-shot.

    Skilled circuit designers know about those kinds of compromises, and
    find work-arounds.

    <snipped the elaborate - if totally unjustified - circuit diagram.>

    John Larkin seems to confuse discussion and willy-waving.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

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