• Solar powered electrostatic motor drone ??

    From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 18 05:46:43 2024
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
    Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Thu Jul 18 11:31:03 2024
    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
    Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago. I scribbled a bit
    to get an idea and it looks like it might have worked.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Thu Jul 18 10:47:47 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 18 Jul 2024 11:31:03 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7an81$2bq7t$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
    Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago. I scribbled a bit
    to get an idea and it looks like it might have worked.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I was just siting in front of the window watching the butterflies in my garden feed on the flowers
    Many of those..
    Then the next door's cat came and started jumping at the butterflies, looks like it had problems
    getting one... but seen it succeeding in the past.

    Amazing what a butterfly running on some honey from flowers can do,
    including object recognition, escape motions, smell (of honey),, what not, No Big battery!

    Nature .. we can learn a lot from that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Thu Jul 18 17:42:15 2024
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
    somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Thu Jul 18 19:21:23 2024
    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Bollée on electrostatic motors: <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Thu Jul 18 11:39:34 2024
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
    somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Bollée on electrostatic motors: ><https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
    than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Thu Jul 18 21:27:19 2024
    On 7/18/24 20:39, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
    somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Bollée on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
    than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?


    It's not so easy to tell. Electromagnetic motors have benefitted from
    a long and intense process of optimization, both for performance and
    for ease of manufacturing. Throwing some ballpark guesses at a possible realization of a 1kW electrostatic motor, I got a motor volume greater
    than an electromagnetic motor, to be sure, but not hugely so. One or
    two orders of magnitude perhaps. Certainly not six.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Thu Jul 18 13:49:44 2024
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:27:19 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 20:39, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
    somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Bollée on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
    than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?


    It's not so easy to tell. Electromagnetic motors have benefitted from
    a long and intense process of optimization, both for performance and
    for ease of manufacturing. Throwing some ballpark guesses at a possible >realization of a 1kW electrostatic motor, I got a motor volume greater
    than an electromagnetic motor, to be sure, but not hugely so. One or
    two orders of magnitude perhaps. Certainly not six.

    Jeroen Belleman

    One source says that "Benjamin Franklin invented the first
    electrostatic motor in 1748."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 18 21:49:14 2024
    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
    somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll‚e on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
    than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.

    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Thu Jul 18 14:59:30 2024
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
    somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
    than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.

    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.

    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Fri Jul 19 00:42:05 2024
    On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
    design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
    ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
    than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.

    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.

    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.




    I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors, interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
    hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
    electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
    would be needed to create a starting torque.

    Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
    with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
    magnetic motors.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Thu Jul 18 22:54:09 2024
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
    design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
    ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
    than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.

    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>>
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.

    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.




    I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors, interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
    hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
    electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
    would be needed to create a starting torque.

    Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
    with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
    magnetic motors

    …in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Thu Jul 18 19:34:50 2024
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 22:54:09 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
    design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
    ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.

    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>>>
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.

    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.




    I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors,
    interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
    hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
    electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
    would be needed to create a starting torque.

    Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
    with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
    magnetic motors

    …in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    They just come in pairs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Fri Jul 19 05:52:07 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7bipr$2gsi9$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
    somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Bollée on electrostatic motors: ><https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I think that Philips thing is not a very efficient way to create torque, unlike the arstechnical link.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jul 19 05:52:07 2024
    On a sunny day (Thu, 18 Jul 2024 14:59:30 -0700) it happened john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote in <qp3j9jl02mu7mtunk1t6nk830urval1s2b@4ax.com>:

    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
    design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
    ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
    than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.

    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.

    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.

    Seems to have a lot of advantages...
    https://www.c-motive.com/technology/
    ?
    Switching is just HV electronics...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From piglet@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Fri Jul 19 07:08:04 2024
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
    design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
    ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
    than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.

    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>>
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.

    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.




    I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors, interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
    hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
    electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
    would be needed to create a starting torque.

    Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
    with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
    magnetic motors.

    Jeroen Belleman


    Since humid air has higher K than dry air such a motor might even run
    better?


    --
    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Fri Jul 19 09:36:57 2024
    On 7/19/24 00:54, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
    design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
    ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
    trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.

    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>>>
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.

    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.




    I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors,
    interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
    hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
    electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
    would be needed to create a starting torque.

    Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
    with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
    magnetic motors

    …in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    Where did that come from? Why do you think monopoles should
    be involved?

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Fri Jul 19 10:00:00 2024
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/19/24 00:54, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
    design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
    ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical >>>>>>>>> as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had >>>>>>>>> taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure >>>>>>> trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
    power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.

    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.

    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.




    I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors,
    interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
    hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
    electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
    would be needed to create a starting torque.

    Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
    with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
    magnetic motors

    …in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    Where did that come from? Why do you think monopoles should
    be involved?

    Jeroen Belleman


    Magnetostatics and electrostatics are not the same in our world, because there’s no free magnetic charge (i. e. monopoles) to cause magnetic
    leakage.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin @21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Fri Jul 19 06:09:47 2024
    On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:00:00 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/19/24 00:54, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
    design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
    ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical >>>>>>>>>> as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had >>>>>>>>>> taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure >>>>>>>> trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or >>>>>>> power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect. >>>>>>
    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently. >>>>>
    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.




    I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors, >>>> interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
    hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
    electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
    would be needed to create a starting torque.

    Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
    with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
    magnetic motors

    …in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    Where did that come from? Why do you think monopoles should
    be involved?

    Jeroen Belleman


    Magnetostatics and electrostatics are not the same in our world, because >there’s no free magnetic charge (i. e. monopoles) to cause magnetic
    leakage.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Is magnetism quantized?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Jul 20 00:45:54 2024
    On 19/07/2024 11:09 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:00:00 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/19/24 00:54, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:

    <snip>

    Is magnetism quantized?

    If you read about the John Chan hysteretic core model in LTSpice, you
    get the impression that the magnetic flux threading a magnetisable core
    is quantised, which it sort of is. Magnetisable core materials are
    broken up into small magnetic domains, and they flip magnetic
    oerientation on a domain by domain basis.

    At a deeper level a magnetic field is just the relativistic consequence
    of moving electric charges, and since charge is quantised, the magnetic
    field has to be too, but I doubt if there a minimum increment in
    magnetic field that can be expressed in very small fractions of a Tesla.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney



    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Fri Jul 19 17:41:09 2024
    On 7/19/24 12:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/19/24 00:54, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
    design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
    ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical >>>>>>>>>> as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had >>>>>>>>>> taken a different turn a century or two ago.

    I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.



    Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure >>>>>>>> trove of interesting stuff.

    I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
    <https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.

    Jeroen Belleman


    I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or >>>>>>> power per dollar. 6 maybe?



    The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect. >>>>>>
    Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
    kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently. >>>>>
    https://www.c-motive.com/

    That alone seems messy to me.




    I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors, >>>> interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
    hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
    electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
    would be needed to create a starting torque.

    Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
    with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
    magnetic motors

    …in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    Where did that come from? Why do you think monopoles should
    be involved?

    Jeroen Belleman


    Magnetostatics and electrostatics are not the same in our world, because there’s no free magnetic charge (i. e. monopoles) to cause magnetic leakage.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    OK, true, but I don't see why that affects the practicality of
    electrostatic motors. In fact, if you remove the motor drive of
    a pelletron, it will happily run in reverse, driven by the
    acccumulated charge on the high-voltage electrode.

    (I'm not suggesting that a pelletron is an optimal configuration
    for an electrostatic motor.)

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Bill Sloman on Fri Jul 19 17:56:31 2024
    Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

    On 19/07/2024 11:09 pm, john larkin wrote:
    [...]
    Is magnetism quantized?

    If you read about the John Chan hysteretic core model in LTSpice, you
    get the impression that the magnetic flux threading a magnetisable core
    is quantised, which it sort of is. Magnetisable core materials are
    broken up into small magnetic domains, and they flip magnetic
    oerientation on a domain by domain basis.


    I remember, as a child, bringing a magnet slowly towards the input
    transformer of a sensitive amplifier and hearing the crunching noise as
    the domains flipped over. It was a source of wonder to me - expecially
    as I couldn't find anything about it in the textbooks available to me at
    the time.


    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Sat Jul 20 05:34:29 2024
    On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2024 17:41:09 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7e19v$31ubm$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/19/24 12:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    monopoly
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    OK, true, but I don't see why that affects the practicality of
    electrostatic motors. In fact, if you remove the motor drive of
    a pelletron, it will happily run in reverse, driven by the
    acccumulated charge on the high-voltage electrode.

    (I'm not suggesting that a pelletron is an optimal configuration
    for an electrostatic motor.)

    Jeroen Belleman

    I was wondering if I could make an electrostatic gun,
    charge some metal object negative, in a similar negative charged tube
    then use several flyback positive pulse generators
    (just a transistor and step up coil) along the barrel to speed the bullet up.

    Just looked at google, only found electrostatic spray guns so far..
    Long ago I made a multi-coil electromagnetic gun, several coils and photocells for the timing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sat Jul 20 08:28:56 2024
    On 7/20/24 07:34, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2024 17:41:09 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7e19v$31ubm$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/19/24 12:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    monopoly
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    OK, true, but I don't see why that affects the practicality of
    electrostatic motors. In fact, if you remove the motor drive of
    a pelletron, it will happily run in reverse, driven by the
    acccumulated charge on the high-voltage electrode.

    (I'm not suggesting that a pelletron is an optimal configuration
    for an electrostatic motor.)

    Jeroen Belleman

    I was wondering if I could make an electrostatic gun,
    charge some metal object negative, in a similar negative charged tube
    then use several flyback positive pulse generators
    (just a transistor and step up coil) along the barrel to speed the bullet up. [...]

    There are very big ones at CERN, but the projectiles are tiny...

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Liz Tuddenham@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sat Jul 20 08:40:49 2024
    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    [...]
    Just looked at google, only found electrostatic spray guns so far..


    One I repaired used a "piezoelectric transformer" in the gun itself,
    right next to the electrodes. That is much smaller and lighter than the equivalent electromagnetic transformer, so it would also be the obvious
    choice for a lightweight electrostatic motor.

    --
    ~ Liz Tuddenham ~
    (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
    www.poppyrecords.co.uk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to Liz Tuddenham on Sat Jul 20 09:47:27 2024
    On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:40:49 +0100) it happened liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote in <1qwzjwc.wy8jtq1k2a92wN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>:

    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    [...]
    Just looked at google, only found electrostatic spray guns so far..


    One I repaired used a "piezoelectric transformer" in the gun itself,
    right next to the electrodes. That is much smaller and lighter than the >equivalent electromagnetic transformer, so it would also be the obvious >choice for a lightweight electrostatic motor.

    Cool, piezo transformer, good idea!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Sat Jul 20 09:47:27 2024
    On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:28:56 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7flaf$3e03f$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/20/24 07:34, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2024 17:41:09 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman >> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7e19v$31ubm$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/19/24 12:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    monopoly
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    OK, true, but I don't see why that affects the practicality of
    electrostatic motors. In fact, if you remove the motor drive of
    a pelletron, it will happily run in reverse, driven by the
    acccumulated charge on the high-voltage electrode.

    (I'm not suggesting that a pelletron is an optimal configuration
    for an electrostatic motor.)

    Jeroen Belleman

    I was wondering if I could make an electrostatic gun,
    charge some metal object negative, in a similar negative charged tube
    then use several flyback positive pulse generators
    (just a transistor and step up coil) along the barrel to speed the bullet up.
    [...]

    There are very big ones at CERN, but the projectiles are tiny...

    Jeroen Belleman

    Yea, those CERN ones are power hungry too....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From legg@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Sat Jul 20 09:06:32 2024
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 11:31:03 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
    Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago. I scribbled a bit
    to get an idea and it looks like it might have worked.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I'm bothered by the "When the plates of the stator and rotor reach
    their closest approach, thin wires will make contact, allowing charges
    to transfer between them."

    Commutating wires on a rotating structure?

    RL

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to legg on Sat Jul 20 17:16:29 2024
    On 7/20/24 15:06, legg wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 11:31:03 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
    Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
    https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago. I scribbled a bit
    to get an idea and it looks like it might have worked.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I'm bothered by the "When the plates of the stator and rotor reach
    their closest approach, thin wires will make contact, allowing charges
    to transfer between them."

    Commutating wires on a rotating structure?

    RL

    Sure. Commutators were common in electric motors. The details of
    their construction may vary, depending on voltages and currents
    involved.

    Anecdote: I ran this van de Graaff in my garage one day, and a
    spider on the ceiling got attacted to the HV terminal. When it
    hit, it was violently repulsed back up to the ceiling, to be
    attracted down again after it hit. This repeated at a rate of
    many times per second. That must have been quite the ride for
    the little beastie.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sat Jul 20 17:03:27 2024
    On 7/20/24 11:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:40:49 +0100) it happened liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote in <1qwzjwc.wy8jtq1k2a92wN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>:

    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    [...]
    Just looked at google, only found electrostatic spray guns so far..


    One I repaired used a "piezoelectric transformer" in the gun itself,
    right next to the electrodes. That is much smaller and lighter than the
    equivalent electromagnetic transformer, so it would also be the obvious
    choice for a lightweight electrostatic motor.

    Cool, piezo transformer, good idea!


    Piezo motors are common where teeny tiny movement is
    needed, as in scanning tunneling microscopes or hard
    disk head positioning actuators.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to Jan Panteltje on Sat Jul 20 17:04:28 2024
    On 7/20/24 11:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:28:56 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7flaf$3e03f$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/20/24 07:34, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2024 17:41:09 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7e19v$31ubm$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/19/24 12:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    monopoly
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    OK, true, but I don't see why that affects the practicality of
    electrostatic motors. In fact, if you remove the motor drive of
    a pelletron, it will happily run in reverse, driven by the
    acccumulated charge on the high-voltage electrode.

    (I'm not suggesting that a pelletron is an optimal configuration
    for an electrostatic motor.)

    Jeroen Belleman

    I was wondering if I could make an electrostatic gun,
    charge some metal object negative, in a similar negative charged tube
    then use several flyback positive pulse generators
    (just a transistor and step up coil) along the barrel to speed the bullet up.
    [...]

    There are very big ones at CERN, but the projectiles are tiny...

    Jeroen Belleman

    Yea, those CERN ones are power hungry too....

    They sure are, ~200MW when everything is running.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From legg@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Sat Jul 20 11:27:29 2024
    On Sat, 20 Jul 2024 17:16:29 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/20/24 15:06, legg wrote:
    On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 11:31:03 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
    <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
    Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/

    Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
    Looks funny.
    4.5V to 9 kV power converter...

    I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
    as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
    taken a different turn a century or two ago. I scribbled a bit
    to get an idea and it looks like it might have worked.

    Jeroen Belleman

    I'm bothered by the "When the plates of the stator and rotor reach
    their closest approach, thin wires will make contact, allowing charges
    to transfer between them."

    Commutating wires on a rotating structure?

    RL

    Sure. Commutators were common in electric motors. The details of
    their construction may vary, depending on voltages and currents
    involved.

    Anecdote: I ran this van de Graaff in my garage one day, and a
    spider on the ceiling got attacted to the HV terminal. When it
    hit, it was violently repulsed back up to the ceiling, to be
    attracted down again after it hit. This repeated at a rate of
    many times per second. That must have been quite the ride for
    the little beastie.

    Jeroen Belleman

    Sounds like entropy to me.

    Perhaps the 'wires' have sufficient inductance to allow
    efficient energy transfer / charge reversal.

    RL

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  • From Jan Panteltje@21:1/5 to jeroen@nospam.please on Sun Jul 21 05:51:51 2024
    On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Jul 2024 17:03:27 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7gjf7$3j1ee$1@dont-email.me>:

    On 7/20/24 11:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
    On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:40:49 +0100) it happened
    liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote in
    <1qwzjwc.wy8jtq1k2a92wN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>:

    Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:

    [...]
    Just looked at google, only found electrostatic spray guns so far..


    One I repaired used a "piezoelectric transformer" in the gun itself,
    right next to the electrodes. That is much smaller and lighter than the >>> equivalent electromagnetic transformer, so it would also be the obvious
    choice for a lightweight electrostatic motor.

    Cool, piezo transformer, good idea!


    Piezo motors are common where teeny tiny movement is
    needed, as in scanning tunneling microscopes or hard
    disk head positioning actuators.

    I was referring to this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piezoelectricity#High_voltage_and_power_sources

    just a bit of compression can generate a high DC voltage
    use one piezo to compress an other one.. to make a high voltage

    I have some high power piezo stuff here for cleaning a boat hull (anti-fouling) and other experiments...
    https://panteltje.nl/pub/40_KHz_ultrasonic_transducers_IMG_5133.JPG

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