Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago. I scribbled a bit
to get an idea and it looks like it might have worked.
Jeroen Belleman
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Bollée on electrostatic motors: ><https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Bollée on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
On 7/18/24 20:39, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Bollée on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
It's not so easy to tell. Electromagnetic motors have benefitted from
a long and intense process of optimization, both for performance and
for ease of manufacturing. Throwing some ballpark guesses at a possible >realization of a 1kW electrostatic motor, I got a motor volume greater
than an electromagnetic motor, to be sure, but not hugely so. One or
two orders of magnitude perhaps. Certainly not six.
Jeroen Belleman
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll‚e on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.
https://www.c-motive.com/
That alone seems messy to me.
On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>>
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.
https://www.c-motive.com/
That alone seems messy to me.
I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors, interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
would be needed to create a starting torque.
Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
magnetic motors
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>>>
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.
https://www.c-motive.com/
That alone seems messy to me.
I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors,
interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
would be needed to create a starting torque.
Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
magnetic motors
…in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre >>>> design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro >>>> ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be
somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Bollée on electrostatic motors: ><https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.
https://www.c-motive.com/
That alone seems messy to me.
On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse
than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>>
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.
https://www.c-motive.com/
That alone seems messy to me.
I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors, interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
would be needed to create a starting torque.
Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
magnetic motors.
Jeroen Belleman
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure
trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;) >>>>
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.
https://www.c-motive.com/
That alone seems messy to me.
I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors,
interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
would be needed to create a starting torque.
Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
magnetic motors
…in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On 7/19/24 00:54, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical >>>>>>>>> as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had >>>>>>>>> taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure >>>>>>> trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or
power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect.
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently.
https://www.c-motive.com/
That alone seems messy to me.
I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors,
interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
would be needed to create a starting torque.
Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
magnetic motors
…in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Where did that come from? Why do you think monopoles should
be involved?
Jeroen Belleman
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/19/24 00:54, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical >>>>>>>>>> as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had >>>>>>>>>> taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure >>>>>>>> trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or >>>>>>> power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect. >>>>>>
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently. >>>>>
https://www.c-motive.com/
That alone seems messy to me.
I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors, >>>> interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
would be needed to create a starting torque.
Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
magnetic motors
…in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Where did that come from? Why do you think monopoles should
be involved?
Jeroen Belleman
Magnetostatics and electrostatics are not the same in our world, because >there’s no free magnetic charge (i. e. monopoles) to cause magnetic
leakage.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 10:00:00 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/19/24 00:54, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Is magnetism quantized?
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/19/24 00:54, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 23:59, john larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 21:49:14 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
john larkin <jlarkin_highland_tech> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 19:21:23 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 18:42, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar Bizarre
design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>>>>>>>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-dro
ne-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical >>>>>>>>>> as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had >>>>>>>>>> taken a different turn a century or two ago.
I think Philips dabbled with them many decades ago. A report will be >>>>>>>>> somewhere in the Philips Technical Review.
Thanks for that hint. The Philips Technical Review is a treasure >>>>>>>> trove of interesting stuff.
I found a paper by B. Boll¥ on electrostatic motors:
<https://pearl-hifi.com/06_Lit_Archive/02_PEARL_Arch/Vol_16/Sec_53/Philips_Tech_Review/PTechReview-30-1969-178.pdf>.
Jeroen Belleman
I wonder how many orders of magnitude an electrostatic motor is worse >>>>>>> than a magnetic motor, in some criterion like power per volume or >>>>>>> power per dollar. 6 maybe?
The main problem for outdoor use is going to be leakage, I expect. >>>>>>
Could be useful if you forget where you parked your car at the airport. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Seems to me that an electrostatic motor will need switching of many
kilovolts into the electrodes. Charging and discharging, efficiently. >>>>>
https://www.c-motive.com/
That alone seems messy to me.
I was thinking of stacks of many stator disks with conductive sectors, >>>> interleaved with as many rotor disks. Running voltage would be a few
hundred volts, maybe up to a kV. Commutation can be mechanical or
electronic. If fed with AC, commutation is implicit, but some tricks
would be needed to create a starting torque.
Leakage in humid condition can be dealt with by covering the disks
with an insulating coating. The problem is not so different from
magnetic motors
…in a universe where there are magnetic monopoles. ;)
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
Where did that come from? Why do you think monopoles should
be involved?
Jeroen Belleman
Magnetostatics and electrostatics are not the same in our world, because there’s no free magnetic charge (i. e. monopoles) to cause magnetic leakage.
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
On 19/07/2024 11:09 pm, john larkin wrote:[...]
Is magnetism quantized?
If you read about the John Chan hysteretic core model in LTSpice, you
get the impression that the magnetic flux threading a magnetisable core
is quantised, which it sort of is. Magnetisable core materials are
broken up into small magnetic domains, and they flip magnetic
oerientation on a domain by domain basis.
On 7/19/24 12:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:
monopoly
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
OK, true, but I don't see why that affects the practicality of
electrostatic motors. In fact, if you remove the motor drive of
a pelletron, it will happily run in reverse, driven by the
acccumulated charge on the high-voltage electrode.
(I'm not suggesting that a pelletron is an optimal configuration
for an electrostatic motor.)
Jeroen Belleman
On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2024 17:41:09 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7e19v$31ubm$1@dont-email.me>:
On 7/19/24 12:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:
monopoly
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
OK, true, but I don't see why that affects the practicality of
electrostatic motors. In fact, if you remove the motor drive of
a pelletron, it will happily run in reverse, driven by the
acccumulated charge on the high-voltage electrode.
(I'm not suggesting that a pelletron is an optimal configuration
for an electrostatic motor.)
Jeroen Belleman
I was wondering if I could make an electrostatic gun,
charge some metal object negative, in a similar negative charged tube
then use several flyback positive pulse generators
(just a transistor and step up coil) along the barrel to speed the bullet up. [...]
Just looked at google, only found electrostatic spray guns so far..
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
[...]
Just looked at google, only found electrostatic spray guns so far..
One I repaired used a "piezoelectric transformer" in the gun itself,
right next to the electrodes. That is much smaller and lighter than the >equivalent electromagnetic transformer, so it would also be the obvious >choice for a lightweight electrostatic motor.
On 7/20/24 07:34, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2024 17:41:09 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman >> <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7e19v$31ubm$1@dont-email.me>:
On 7/19/24 12:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:
monopoly
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
OK, true, but I don't see why that affects the practicality of
electrostatic motors. In fact, if you remove the motor drive of
a pelletron, it will happily run in reverse, driven by the
acccumulated charge on the high-voltage electrode.
(I'm not suggesting that a pelletron is an optimal configuration
for an electrostatic motor.)
Jeroen Belleman
I was wondering if I could make an electrostatic gun,
charge some metal object negative, in a similar negative charged tube
then use several flyback positive pulse generators
(just a transistor and step up coil) along the barrel to speed the bullet up.
[...]
There are very big ones at CERN, but the projectiles are tiny...
Jeroen Belleman
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago. I scribbled a bit
to get an idea and it looks like it might have worked.
Jeroen Belleman
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 11:31:03 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago. I scribbled a bit
to get an idea and it looks like it might have worked.
Jeroen Belleman
I'm bothered by the "When the plates of the stator and rotor reach
their closest approach, thin wires will make contact, allowing charges
to transfer between them."
Commutating wires on a rotating structure?
RL
On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:40:49 +0100) it happened liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote in <1qwzjwc.wy8jtq1k2a92wN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>:
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
[...]
Just looked at google, only found electrostatic spray guns so far..
One I repaired used a "piezoelectric transformer" in the gun itself,
right next to the electrodes. That is much smaller and lighter than the
equivalent electromagnetic transformer, so it would also be the obvious
choice for a lightweight electrostatic motor.
Cool, piezo transformer, good idea!
On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:28:56 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7flaf$3e03f$1@dont-email.me>:
On 7/20/24 07:34, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 19 Jul 2024 17:41:09 +0200) it happened Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote in <v7e19v$31ubm$1@dont-email.me>:
On 7/19/24 12:00, Phil Hobbs wrote:
monopoly
Cheers
Phil Hobbs
OK, true, but I don't see why that affects the practicality of
electrostatic motors. In fact, if you remove the motor drive of
a pelletron, it will happily run in reverse, driven by the
acccumulated charge on the high-voltage electrode.
(I'm not suggesting that a pelletron is an optimal configuration
for an electrostatic motor.)
Jeroen Belleman
I was wondering if I could make an electrostatic gun,
charge some metal object negative, in a similar negative charged tube
then use several flyback positive pulse generators
(just a transistor and step up coil) along the barrel to speed the bullet up.
[...]
There are very big ones at CERN, but the projectiles are tiny...
Jeroen Belleman
Yea, those CERN ones are power hungry too....
On 7/20/24 15:06, legg wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jul 2024 11:31:03 +0200, Jeroen Belleman
<jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
On 7/18/24 07:46, Jan Panteltje wrote:
Researchers build ultralight drone that flies with onboard solar
Bizarre design uses a solar-powered motor that's optimized for weight. >>>> https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/researchers-build-ultralight-drone-that-flies-with-onboard-solar/
Well, ehh, unlimited flight time if any sun..
Looks funny.
4.5V to 9 kV power converter...
I wonder if electrostatic motors would have been as practical
as electromagnetic motors if the history of motor design had
taken a different turn a century or two ago. I scribbled a bit
to get an idea and it looks like it might have worked.
Jeroen Belleman
I'm bothered by the "When the plates of the stator and rotor reach
their closest approach, thin wires will make contact, allowing charges
to transfer between them."
Commutating wires on a rotating structure?
RL
Sure. Commutators were common in electric motors. The details of
their construction may vary, depending on voltages and currents
involved.
Anecdote: I ran this van de Graaff in my garage one day, and a
spider on the ceiling got attacted to the HV terminal. When it
hit, it was violently repulsed back up to the ceiling, to be
attracted down again after it hit. This repeated at a rate of
many times per second. That must have been quite the ride for
the little beastie.
Jeroen Belleman
On 7/20/24 11:47, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Sat, 20 Jul 2024 08:40:49 +0100) it happened
liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Liz Tuddenham) wrote in
<1qwzjwc.wy8jtq1k2a92wN%liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid>:
Jan Panteltje <alien@comet.invalid> wrote:
[...]
Just looked at google, only found electrostatic spray guns so far..
One I repaired used a "piezoelectric transformer" in the gun itself,
right next to the electrodes. That is much smaller and lighter than the >>> equivalent electromagnetic transformer, so it would also be the obvious
choice for a lightweight electrostatic motor.
Cool, piezo transformer, good idea!
Piezo motors are common where teeny tiny movement is
needed, as in scanning tunneling microscopes or hard
disk head positioning actuators.
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