• OT: Kids got an E-scooter?

    From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 22 13:22:25 2024
    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 22 09:12:04 2024
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap batteries.

    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust in
    garages and closets waiting to explode.

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/B00NOD6T4G

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sat Jun 22 17:22:01 2024
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap batteries.

    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust in
    garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs.


    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jun 22 16:58:40 2024
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap batteries.

    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust in
    garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs.


    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Sun Jun 23 11:25:21 2024
    On 23/06/2024 9:58 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote
    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap batteries.

    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust in
    garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs.

    If you can describe it as a thought. More a deluded fantasy/
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    Really? Do you have any evidence for that that claim?

    This is just more of the usual alarmist nonsense about lithium ion
    batteries. This should be the kind of forum where we discuss the design
    of lithium ion battery chargers and lithium ion battery condition
    monitors - which could, in principle be designed to discharge the
    battery if the internal temperature of the battery rose high enough to
    suggest a risk of runaway self-discharge.

    Cursitor Doom and John Larkin are much too devoted to their alarmist
    fantasies to want to think about that (always assuming that they could
    if they wanted to).

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney



    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to Bill Sloman on Sun Jun 23 16:56:57 2024
    On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 11:25:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 23/06/2024 9:58 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote
    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap
    batteries.

    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust
    in garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs.

    If you can describe it as a thought. More a deluded fantasy/
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    Really? Do you have any evidence for that that claim?

    This is just more of the usual alarmist nonsense about lithium ion
    batteries. This should be the kind of forum where we discuss the design
    of lithium ion battery chargers and lithium ion battery condition
    monitors - which could, in principle be designed to discharge the
    battery if the internal temperature of the battery rose high enough to suggest a risk of runaway self-discharge.

    Cursitor Doom and John Larkin are much too devoted to their alarmist fantasies to want to think about that (always assuming that they could
    if they wanted to).

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    Perhaps you'd like to explain to the lady who's house burned to the ground
    and her similarly stricken neighbours that this is all just an "alarmist fantasy" Bill.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From wmartin@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Sun Jun 23 12:51:30 2024
    On 6/23/24 09:56, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 11:25:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 23/06/2024 9:58 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote
    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap
    batteries.

    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust >>>>>> in garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs.

    If you can describe it as a thought. More a deluded fantasy/
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    Really? Do you have any evidence for that that claim?

    This is just more of the usual alarmist nonsense about lithium ion
    batteries. This should be the kind of forum where we discuss the design
    of lithium ion battery chargers and lithium ion battery condition
    monitors - which could, in principle be designed to discharge the
    battery if the internal temperature of the battery rose high enough to
    suggest a risk of runaway self-discharge.

    Cursitor Doom and John Larkin are much too devoted to their alarmist
    fantasies to want to think about that (always assuming that they could
    if they wanted to).

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    Perhaps you'd like to explain to the lady who's house burned to the ground and her similarly stricken neighbours that this is all just an "alarmist fantasy" Bill.

    Alarmist fantasy in action... https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/2024/05/18/battery-fire-at-storage-facility-in-otay-mesa-keeps-reigniting/

    also: (different incident) "On April 19, 2019, a fire captain, a fire
    engineer and two career firefighters suffered serious injuries dealing
    with a thermal runaway incident at a 2.16-megawatt battery facility in Surprise, Arizona. According to a Underwriters Laboratories report on
    the incident, When firefighters opened a door to the building, a 75-foot
    jet of flame extended outward from the doorway. The fire captain was
    blown over 70 feet against a chain-link fence surrounding the building.
    The entire hazardous materials team lost consciousness from the blast. "

    Not to be an alarmist, just be aware that even professionally managed
    lithium batteries can do bad things. Don't keep them in your house...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Mon Jun 24 12:00:48 2024
    On 24/06/2024 2:56 am, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 11:25:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 23/06/2024 9:58 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote
    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    <snip>

    Perhaps you'd like to explain to the lady who's house burned to the ground and her similarly stricken neighbours that this is all just an "alarmist fantasy" Bill.

    The claim every e-scooter is going to burn your house down is the
    alarmist fantasy. The proposition that we should give up on all lithium
    ion batteries because some manufacturers don't design their products
    carefully enough is not appropriate to sci.electronics.design.

    You don't even claim to be able to design stuff, so this may pass you
    by. John Larkin does like to claim that he does design stuff, but isn't
    all that convincing.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to wmartin on Mon Jun 24 13:18:57 2024
    On 24/06/2024 5:51 am, wmartin wrote:
    On 6/23/24 09:56, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 11:25:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 23/06/2024 9:58 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote
    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap
    batteries.

    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust >>>>>>> in garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs.

    If you can describe it as a thought. More a deluded fantasy/
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    Really? Do you have any evidence for that that claim?

    This is just more of the usual alarmist nonsense about lithium ion
    batteries. This should be the kind of forum where we discuss the design
    of lithium ion battery chargers and lithium ion battery condition
    monitors - which could, in principle be designed to discharge the
    battery if the internal temperature of the battery rose high  enough to >>> suggest a risk of runaway self-discharge.

    Cursitor Doom and John Larkin are much too devoted to their alarmist
    fantasies to want to think  about that (always assuming that  they could >>> if they wanted to).

    Perhaps you'd like to explain to the lady who's house burned to the
    ground and her similarly stricken neighbours that this is all just an "alarmist
    fantasy" Bill.

    Alarmist fantasy in action... https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/2024/05/18/battery-fire-at-storage-facility-in-otay-mesa-keeps-reigniting/

    also: (different incident) "On April 19, 2019, a fire captain, a fire engineer and two career firefighters suffered serious injuries dealing
    with a thermal runaway incident at a 2.16-megawatt battery facility in Surprise, Arizona. According to a Underwriters Laboratories report on
    the incident, When firefighters opened a door to the building, a 75-foot
    jet of flame extended outward from the doorway. The fire captain was
    blown over 70 feet against a chain-link fence surrounding the building.
    The entire hazardous materials team lost consciousness from the blast. "

    Not to be an alarmist, just be aware that even professionally managed
    lithium batteries can do bad things. Don't keep them in your house...

    "Professionally managed" just means that the people who are supposed to
    look after the facility are getting paid for it. Getting paid doesn't
    mean that you are doing it right.

    If your lithium batteries are equipped with properly designed
    temperature monitors and appropriate battery management hardware, they
    won't burst into flame without generating some kind of alarm well in
    advance.

    The safest option is to put them somewhere where they could burn out,
    but that is rarely practical.

    Tesla power walls are expensive, but a separate outhouse for them would
    make them even more expensive.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Jun 24 10:06:31 2024
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 16:58:40 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap batteries.

    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust in
    garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs.


    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    Yeah. A lithium BEV fire has no problem melting the girders of a big
    parking facility, collapsing same.

    But there is also a building Code problem on exhibit. In Baltimore,
    where row houses are very common, it used to be that the wall between
    adjacent was just an ordinary wall, so if a fire started in one unit,
    the whole row would burn to the ground.

    So, the Building Code was changed to require a double-thickness
    masonry (brick usually) wall between units. This almost worked, but
    the brick wall stopped at the top of the rooms below the attic, which
    was still in common. So, fires still spread to the whole row, only
    slightly less quickly.

    The Building Code was again updated, now to require that the wall
    extend a foot or two above the roof (which was sloped flat). Success
    at last.

    Units now burned independently of one another, and the Insurance
    Companies stopped threatening to exclude most of the housing in
    Baltimore from house insurance.

    I wonder why the UK didn't learn this bit of history. Maybe those
    units were grandfathered in.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 24 07:28:09 2024
    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 10:06:31 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 16:58:40 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>> wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap batteries. >>>>>
    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust in >>>>> garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs.


    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    Yeah. A lithium BEV fire has no problem melting the girders of a big
    parking facility, collapsing same.

    But there is also a building Code problem on exhibit. In Baltimore,
    where row houses are very common, it used to be that the wall between >adjacent was just an ordinary wall, so if a fire started in one unit,
    the whole row would burn to the ground.

    So, the Building Code was changed to require a double-thickness
    masonry (brick usually) wall between units. This almost worked, but
    the brick wall stopped at the top of the rooms below the attic, which
    was still in common. So, fires still spread to the whole row, only
    slightly less quickly.

    The Building Code was again updated, now to require that the wall
    extend a foot or two above the roof (which was sloped flat). Success
    at last.

    Units now burned independently of one another, and the Insurance
    Companies stopped threatening to exclude most of the housing in
    Baltimore from house insurance.

    I wonder why the UK didn't learn this bit of history. Maybe those
    units were grandfathered in.

    Joe Gwinn

    I can walk my whole block on the flat roofs. There is zero gap between
    houses, and the standard lot is 24 feet wide.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/l0cbx3kx0fx9m6scvj5pj/Roof_Lake_1.jpg?rlkey=m0yl1wnvw6oy69pkferilltcn&raw=1

    It's thermally great; only two houses on the block have sideways heat
    loss, and even that is half normal.

    The walls (of new stuff) are fire-resistant drywall, and there is a
    foot or so vertical extention between roofs like you describe. And we
    have a lot of firestations and firefighters. There are TWO San
    Francisco Firefighter Cookbooks.

    When I go to Safeway in the morning, there are commonly one or two
    fire trucks parked ouside and the big macho uniformed firefighters are
    inside having heated debates about which kind of onions to buy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to wmartin on Mon Jun 24 07:48:35 2024
    On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 12:51:30 -0700, wmartin <wwm@wwmartin.net> wrote:

    On 6/23/24 09:56, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 11:25:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 23/06/2024 9:58 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote
    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap
    batteries.

    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust >>>>>>> in garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs.

    If you can describe it as a thought. More a deluded fantasy/
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    Really? Do you have any evidence for that that claim?

    This is just more of the usual alarmist nonsense about lithium ion
    batteries. This should be the kind of forum where we discuss the design
    of lithium ion battery chargers and lithium ion battery condition
    monitors - which could, in principle be designed to discharge the
    battery if the internal temperature of the battery rose high enough to
    suggest a risk of runaway self-discharge.

    Cursitor Doom and John Larkin are much too devoted to their alarmist
    fantasies to want to think about that (always assuming that they could >>> if they wanted to).

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    Perhaps you'd like to explain to the lady who's house burned to the ground >> and her similarly stricken neighbours that this is all just an "alarmist
    fantasy" Bill.

    Alarmist fantasy in action... >https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/2024/05/18/battery-fire-at-storage-facility-in-otay-mesa-keeps-reigniting/

    also: (different incident) "On April 19, 2019, a fire captain, a fire >engineer and two career firefighters suffered serious injuries dealing
    with a thermal runaway incident at a 2.16-megawatt battery facility in >Surprise, Arizona. According to a Underwriters Laboratories report on
    the incident, When firefighters opened a door to the building, a 75-foot
    jet of flame extended outward from the doorway. The fire captain was
    blown over 70 feet against a chain-link fence surrounding the building.
    The entire hazardous materials team lost consciousness from the blast. "


    Nasty.

    Not to be an alarmist, just be aware that even professionally managed
    lithium batteries can do bad things. Don't keep them in your house...

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crgggmeyjj7o

    From what I've read, most lithium battery explosions happen when the
    batteries are idle, neither charging nor discharging, basically
    connected to nothing. The times from normal to smoking to exploded is
    seconds.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lasse Langwadt@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Mon Jun 24 22:13:49 2024
    On 6/22/24 14:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    there's a crapton of other stuff with possibly dodgy batteries, what
    makes you think e-scooters so special?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Jun 24 16:39:17 2024
    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 07:28:09 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 10:06:31 -0400, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 16:58:40 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com> >>>wrote:

    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:

    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom <cd@notformail.com> >>>>>> wrote:

    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    I doubt that there is any serious quality control on cheap batteries. >>>>>>
    Kids are maiming and killing themselves on cheap unlicensed
    battery-powered scooters and such too.

    Imagine maybe a million unused battery-powered toys gathering dust in >>>>>> garages and closets waiting to explode.

    A frightening thought! Not so much batteries; more incendiary bombs. >>>>>

    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33963903/

    https://www.amazon.com/Go-Bowen-Baja-1000W-Electric-Go-Kart/dp/
    B00NOD6T4G

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    Yeah. A lithium BEV fire has no problem melting the girders of a big >>parking facility, collapsing same.

    But there is also a building Code problem on exhibit. In Baltimore,
    where row houses are very common, it used to be that the wall between >>adjacent was just an ordinary wall, so if a fire started in one unit,
    the whole row would burn to the ground.

    So, the Building Code was changed to require a double-thickness
    masonry (brick usually) wall between units. This almost worked, but
    the brick wall stopped at the top of the rooms below the attic, which
    was still in common. So, fires still spread to the whole row, only >>slightly less quickly.

    The Building Code was again updated, now to require that the wall
    extend a foot or two above the roof (which was sloped flat). Success
    at last.

    Units now burned independently of one another, and the Insurance
    Companies stopped threatening to exclude most of the housing in
    Baltimore from house insurance.

    I wonder why the UK didn't learn this bit of history. Maybe those
    units were grandfathered in.

    Joe Gwinn

    I can walk my whole block on the flat roofs. There is zero gap between >houses, and the standard lot is 24 feet wide.

    https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/l0cbx3kx0fx9m6scvj5pj/Roof_Lake_1.jpg?rlkey=m0yl1wnvw6oy69pkferilltcn&raw=1

    It's thermally great; only two houses on the block have sideways heat
    loss, and even that is half normal.

    This works with brick as well.


    The walls (of new stuff) are fire-resistant drywall, and there is a
    foot or so vertical extention between roofs like you describe. And we
    have a lot of firestations and firefighters. There are TWO San
    Francisco Firefighter Cookbooks.

    The drywall would need to be pretty thick to be adequate.


    When I go to Safeway in the morning, there are commonly one or two
    fire trucks parked ouside and the big macho uniformed firefighters are
    inside having heated debates about which kind of onions to buy.

    I'd guess that the real reason is that bricks were cheap and available
    in Maryland, but not so much in California, where they use wood for
    roofs as well.

    The style in Maryland is marble and red brick, not wood. In the dense
    cities, wood is forbidden because it keeps igniting.

    Joe Gwinn

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  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to Lasse Langwadt on Mon Jun 24 22:52:38 2024
    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:13:49 +0200, Lasse Langwadt wrote:

    On 6/22/24 14:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    there's a crapton of other stuff with possibly dodgy batteries, what
    makes you think e-scooters so special?

    Not sure. Just seems like the very worst fires are from *large*
    concentrations of these cells packed closely together. Perhaps if there's
    even the slightest heat build-up in a faulty cell there needs to be at
    least *some* modicum of air-spacing to permit heat release or the whole
    'pile' goes into thermal runaway with the devastating results we typically
    see. I only say this because I've never known individual cells or small clusters of them go *bang* big time.

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  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Jun 25 21:11:24 2024
    On 25/06/2024 12:48 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 12:51:30 -0700, wmartin <wwm@wwmartin.net> wrote:

    On 6/23/24 09:56, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sun, 23 Jun 2024 11:25:21 +1000, Bill Sloman wrote:

    On 23/06/2024 9:58 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 22:39:48 +0100, TTman <kraken.sankey@gmail.com>
    wrote
    On 22/06/2024 18:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:12:04 -0700, john larkin wrote:
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 13:22:25 +0100, Cursitor Doom
    <cd@notformail.com>
    wrote:

    <snip>

    From what I've read, most lithium battery explosions happen when the batteries are idle, neither charging nor discharging, basically
    connected to nothing.

    The problem here is that your reading comprehension isn't great.

    The times from normal to smoking to exploded is
    seconds.

    The cells may look perfectly normal in visible light, but what you are
    talking about is thermal runaway.

    With lithium batteries, the cells have to get up to between 140 to 160
    Celcius before the process can take off. That's hot.

    With a charged battery there is always some self-discharge, and that
    does warm the battery some extent, and it gets worse as the cells get
    old. The processes that contribute to self-discharge move faster when
    the cells are warm, so you get more self-discharge in old batteries (but
    bad charging habits don't help either). They have to be very far gone
    before they can run away.

    Any kind of properly designed battery monitoring system should give you
    plenty of early warning, and should be able to discharge the battery (if slowly) before they get to be dangerous. It's a design problem, and not
    one you seem to be able to think about.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 25 14:29:20 2024
    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:13:49 +0200, Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk>
    wrote:

    On 6/22/24 14:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    there's a crapton of other stuff with possibly dodgy batteries, what
    makes you think e-scooters so special?

    Some are incredibly cheap, and I expect that most people park them
    indoors.

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Jun 25 22:03:41 2024
    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:13:49 +0200, Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk>
    wrote:

    On 6/22/24 14:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    there's a crapton of other stuff with possibly dodgy batteries, what
    makes you think e-scooters so special?

    Some are incredibly cheap, and I expect that most people park them
    indoors.

    Seems like the problem is that the fuel and oxidizer are stored way too
    close together.

    If only we could separate them—hey, maybe we could save weight and be safer by using air as oxidizer, and even more by not carrying the oxidized fuel around!

    What an amazing advance that would be!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical. on Tue Jun 25 15:35:04 2024
    On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:03:41 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:13:49 +0200, Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk>
    wrote:

    On 6/22/24 14:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    there's a crapton of other stuff with possibly dodgy batteries, what
    makes you think e-scooters so special?

    Some are incredibly cheap, and I expect that most people park them
    indoors.

    Seems like the problem is that the fuel and oxidizer are stored way too
    close together.

    If only we could separate them—hey, maybe we could save weight and be safer >by using air as oxidizer, and even more by not carrying the oxidized fuel >around!

    What an amazing advance that would be!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Don't be silly. That's obviously impossible.

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  • From Jeff Liebermann@21:1/5 to john larkin on Tue Jun 25 17:07:45 2024
    On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 15:35:04 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:03:41 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs ><pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:13:49 +0200, Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk>
    wrote:

    On 6/22/24 14:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    there's a crapton of other stuff with possibly dodgy batteries, what
    makes you think e-scooters so special?

    Some are incredibly cheap, and I expect that most people park them
    indoors.

    Seems like the problem is that the fuel and oxidizer are stored way too >>close together.

    If only we could separate them—hey, maybe we could save weight and be safer >>by using air as oxidizer, and even more by not carrying the oxidized fuel >>around!

    What an amazing advance that would be!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Don't be silly. That's obviously impossible.

    Ummm... Perhaps solid state batteries which do not use a flammable
    electrolyte?
    <https://www.samsungsdi.com/column/technology/detail/56462.html>
    "...a solid-state battery with solid electrolyte shows improved
    stability with a solid structure, and increased safety since it
    maintains the form even if the electrolyte is damaged." <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-state_battery>
    All that remains is to figure out how to upscale the technology to
    larger batteries, eliminate the dendrite problems, and of course
    reduce the high manufacturing cost.

    If all else fails, there's always the Boeing solution to battery
    fires. Instead of replacing the LiCoO2 battery with a safer
    chemistry, Boeing opted to entomb the battery in a 185 lb (84 kg) fire
    proof steel box. Anything to avoid having to re-certify the 787 for a
    new backup battery chemistry. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Boeing_787_Dreamliner_grounding#Solution>



    --
    Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
    PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
    Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
    Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

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  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Jun 26 13:47:00 2024
    On 26/06/2024 8:35 am, john larkin wrote:
    On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 22:03:41 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 22:13:49 +0200, Lasse Langwadt <llc@fonz.dk>
    wrote:

    On 6/22/24 14:22, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    Get rid of it!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxwwzd99r2do

    there's a crapton of other stuff with possibly dodgy batteries, what
    makes you think e-scooters so special?

    Some are incredibly cheap, and I expect that most people park them
    indoors.

    Seems like the problem is that the fuel and oxidizer are stored way too
    close together.

    If only we could separate them—hey, maybe we could save weight and be safer
    by using air as oxidizer, and even more by not carrying the oxidized fuel
    around!

    What an amazing advance that would be!

    Don't be silly. That's obviously impossible.

    Electric trains and electric trolley buses seem to manage it.

    Putting recharging coils under stretches of road (as is done for some -
    very few - battery powered buses) does limit the amount of fuel stored
    in the vehicle.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney



    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

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  • From Robert Roland@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Jun 26 14:41:46 2024
    On Sat, 22 Jun 2024 16:58:40 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    That's why we charged our RC lipos in a fireproof bag...

    If it ignites, it would burn through a steel lunchbox.

    A lunch box is probably made from very thin steel (or even aluminium),
    and the flame from a LiPo fire is quite hot, so this might be true.

    Those LiPo bags, however, actually work. They have fibreglass layers
    in them. They are specifically made to not be air tight. That way, the
    smoke and gases can escape without risk of the bag popping open.

    A Li-Ion (including LiPo) cell does not contain metallic lithium, so
    there will not be a metal fire. It is the volatile components of the electrolyte that burn.
    --
    RoRo

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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to clive@nowaytoday.co.uk on Wed Jun 26 09:07:40 2024
    On Wed, 26 Jun 2024 16:35:03 +0100, Clive Arthur
    <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:

    On 25/06/2024 23:03, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    <snip>

    Seems like the problem is that the fuel and oxidizer are stored way too
    close together.

    If only we could separate them—hey, maybe we could save weight and be safer >> by using air as oxidizer, and even more by not carrying the oxidized fuel
    around!

    What an amazing advance that would be!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    But the vehicle would get progressively heavier as the reaction products >built up. I mean, surely no-one would simply dump them to atmosphere?

    Good point. The used reactants would be bigger than the fuel, so the
    waste tank would be bigger and heavier than the fuel tank. It might
    need a pump to compress the used reactants, which would wreck
    efficiency.

    A fueling station would need big underground tanks for the waste too.

    But we could use wind and solar power to reprocess the waste back into
    fuel and air.

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  • From Clive Arthur@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Wed Jun 26 16:35:03 2024
    On 25/06/2024 23:03, Phil Hobbs wrote:

    <snip>

    Seems like the problem is that the fuel and oxidizer are stored way too
    close together.

    If only we could separate them—hey, maybe we could save weight and be safer by using air as oxidizer, and even more by not carrying the oxidized fuel around!

    What an amazing advance that would be!

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    But the vehicle would get progressively heavier as the reaction products
    built up. I mean, surely no-one would simply dump them to atmosphere?

    --
    Cheers
    Clive

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