• Re: A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics

    From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 9 23:00:47 2024
    On 8/06/2024 11:14 am, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr. Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0

    I've down-loaded it. It reminds me a lot of "Coaxial AC Bridges" by
    Kibble and Rayner ISBN 0-85274-389-0, which the author should find
    flattering. Kibble is also the Kibble in the Kibble Bridge.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

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  • From ehsjr@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 9 13:02:17 2024
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr. Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0


    Thanks!
    Ed

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  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to ehsjr on Sun Jun 9 17:32:41 2024
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 13:02:17 -0400, ehsjr wrote:

    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished
    monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
    interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5- glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0


    Thanks!
    Ed

    Yes, thanks to whoever posted this; very interesting indeed.

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  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to ehsjr on Sun Jun 9 20:06:10 2024
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished
    monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
    interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0


    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
    as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit
    current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at
    me.

    Jeroen Belleman

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Jeroen Belleman on Sun Jun 9 18:09:24 2024
    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished
    monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
    interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0


    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
    as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit
    current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at
    me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It’s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com on Mon Jun 10 00:29:17 2024
    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr. >>>>> Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished
    monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
    interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0


    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
    as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit
    current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at
    me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    ItÂ’s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat
    energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that
    thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT
    per hertz.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 9 18:24:04 2024
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 01:55:51 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr. >>>>>>> Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished
    monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of >>>>>>> interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0


    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
    as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit
    current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at
    me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat
    energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that >>thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT >>per hertz.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Sure, which is what he states. By mentioning a hot and cold resistor he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that the T refers to the hot source.

    If you connect two resistors, the noise voltages create an equivalent
    thermal conductivity. I did the math once and I recall that any
    reasonable real wires would conduct a lot more heat.

    And in real life, capacitance will kill the bandwidth and the heat
    transfer.

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jun 9 21:43:25 2024
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr. >>>>>>> Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished
    monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of >>>>>>> interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0


    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
    as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit
    current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at
    me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat
    energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that
    thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT
    per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states. By mentioning a hot and cold resistor he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you
    want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Mon Jun 10 15:14:40 2024
    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written >>>>>>>> by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology. >>>>>>>>
    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished
    monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of >>>>>>>> interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0



    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
    as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit
    current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at
    me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat >>>> energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that
    thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT >>> per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.  By mentioning a hot and cold resistor
    he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that
    the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you
    want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right
    there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.

    Twenty years ago I posted a brief derivation of the Johnson noise
    formula in the thread "thermal noise in resistors - Baffled!", as
    follows (with a couple of typos fixed).

    One good way of deriving the Johnson noise formula (the sqrt(4kT) thing)
    is from classical equipartition of energy. The stored energy in a
    capacitor is a single classical degree of freedom, and hence (when
    connected to a thermal reservoir, e.g. connected in parallel with a
    resistor at temperature T) has a mean energy of kT/2, and since the
    energy is CV**2/2, its rms noise voltage is sqrt(kT/C).

    The noise bandwidth of a one-pole RC lowpass is (pi/2)*(3 dB BW) =
    1/(4RC). Therefore, the noise power spectral density in the flatband is

    p_N=(kT/2C)*(4RC) per hertz,

    so setting p_N=C(e_N)**2/2, we get

    (e_N)**2 = kT*4R

    and

    e_N = sqrt(4kTR) per root hertz.

    This is the same noise that correlated double sampling in CCDs was
    designed to deal with. The advantage of this way of looking at it is
    that the resistor doesn't have to be linear--CMOS reset switches behave
    the same way.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Mon Jun 10 15:20:31 2024
    On 2024-06-10 15:14, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    <snip>

    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right
    there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.

    Twenty years ago I posted a brief derivation of the Johnson noise
    formula in the thread "thermal noise in resistors - Baffled!"....

    <snip> >

    And again the following year, with more discussion...this qualifies as a well-aged FAQ. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    Subject: Capacitor-feedback for low noise
    Phil Hobbs
    Aug 23, 2005, 11:16:25 AM

    Zigoteau wrote:

    If you want to calculate the noise you get from an arbitrary circuit,
    then you need a model for the noise behavior. The thermal noise of an
    impedance Z(f) can be modeled by a Thevenin equivalent circuit, where
    the voltage source in series with Z(f) is random with a spectral
    density of 4kTRe(Z(f)) V2/Hz. Equivalently, its thermal noise can be
    modeled by a Norton equivalent circuit, where the current source in
    parallel is random with a spectral density of 4kTRe(1/Z(f)) A2/Hz.

    Yes, the physics behind it is summarized in the fluctuation-dissipation theorem of statistical mechanics, which says that any mechanism that can dissipate energy has associated fluctuations at finite temperature. If
    this weren't so, you could make heat flow spontaneously from cold to hot.

    The usual way to derive the Johnson noise formula for a resistor is to
    use classical equipartition of energy, which predicts that any single
    degree of freedom, e.g. the charge on a capacitor, has an RMS energy of
    kT/2. Classical equipartition is a very general consequence of
    statistical mechanics, and even in a quantum treatment, it can be shown
    to hold for frequencies << kT/h, about 6 THz at room temperature. (The high-frequency correction is due to the Planck function rolloff.) Since E=CV**2/2, kT/2 of energy corresponds to voltage Vrms = sqrt(kT/C), and charge Qrms = CV = sqrt(kTC).

    If you have a parallel RC, isolated from the rest of the universe,
    this fluctuation must be maintained in equilibrium by the resistor noise--otherwise, the initial sqrt(kTC) would just discharge through the resistor. This must be true regardless of the values of R and C.
    Therefore, the open-circuit thermal fluctuations of the resistor, in the bandwidth of the RC, must equal sqrt(kT/C) volts; since the noise BW is 1/(4RC) (noise BW = pi/2* 3 dB BW), the open-circuit resistor noise
    voltage density is sqrt[(4RC)*(kT/C)] = sqrt(4kTR), which we all know
    and love.

    You have to work a little harder to make this demonstration completely rigorous, e.g. by showing that the fluctuations have to be flat with frequency, but this is the idea. It can also be shown directly from statistical mechanics applied to a semiclassical electron gas model of metallic conduction, but I don't know how that derivation goes.






    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

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  • From piglet@21:1/5 to sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com on Mon Jun 10 21:12:53 2024
    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0


    That link doesn’t work for me, is there some other way to access it please?

    --
    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jun 11 19:11:51 2024
    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:50:19 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written >>>>>>>>>> by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology. >>>>>>>>>>
    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished >>>>>>>>>> monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of >>>>>>>>>> interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0



    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
    as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit >>>>>>>> current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at
    me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat >>>>>> energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that
    thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT >>>>> per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.  By mentioning a hot and cold resistor
    he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that
    the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you
    want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right >>there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.


    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise voltage) which is actually required in the design process of a transducer/amplifier low S/N system.

    What does that mean? Do unconnected resistors get hot?

    A box of resistors could start a fire!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com on Wed Jun 12 03:12:08 2024
    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written >>>>>>>>>> by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology. >>>>>>>>>>
    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished >>>>>>>>>> monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of >>>>>>>>>> interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0




    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
    as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit >>>>>>>> current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at
    me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat >>>>>> energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that
    thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT >>>>> per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.  By mentioning a hot and cold resistor >>>> he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that
    the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you
    want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right
    there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.


    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise voltage)
    which is actually required in the design process of a
    transducer/amplifier low S/N system. No engineer outwith some
    RF/microwave areas (such are specifing antenna noise temperature) is
    remotely interested in your definition of noise power as the maximum
    power which can be extracted from a thermal source (ie by a conjugate
    source match). The vast majority of engineers (if asked to specify
    resistor noise power) would present exactly the same equation as Daykin, because they are interested in noise voltage (or current) only.

    John, I’m sorry that your friend is dying. The fact that it comes to us all doesn’t make it any easier to take.

    I’m reading his stuff, so far with interest, and have zero interest in rubbishing it, or him.

    You said yourself that it was unfinished, which means in part that he
    didn’t get the chance to check the final version for errors.

    This one error doesn’t mean that it’s worthless, just unfinished.

    My first edition contained 107 errors that I know about, which fortunately
    I was able to fix in later printings. So believe me, I understand the
    problem.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs


    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill Sloman@21:1/5 to john larkin on Wed Jun 12 15:00:27 2024
    On 12/06/2024 12:11 pm, john larkin wrote:
    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:50:19 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written >>>>>>>>>>> by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology. >>>>>>>>>>>
    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished >>>>>>>>>>> monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of >>>>>>>>>>> interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0



    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power
    as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit >>>>>>>>> current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at >>>>>>>>> me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat >>>>>>> energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that
    thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT >>>>>> per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.  By mentioning a hot and cold resistor >>>>> he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that >>>>> the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you >>>> want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right
    there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.


    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise voltage) which is actually required in the design process of a transducer/amplifier low S/N system.

    What does that mean? Do unconnected resistors get hot?

    No. They certainly don't get warmer than their enviroment, though they
    do interact with it.

    A box of resistors could start a fire!

    Obviously not. John Larkin's sense of humour is depressingly pathetic.

    --
    Bill Sloman, Sydney



    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by Norton antivirus software. www.norton.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Edward Rawde@21:1/5 to piglet on Wed Jun 12 11:58:53 2024
    "piglet" <erichpwagner@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:v47q8l$knub$1@dont-email.me...
    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished monographs
    (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0


    That link doesn't work for me, is there some other way to access it please?

    This appears to be almost the same document but has 457 rather than 463 pages.

    https://www.eevblog.com/files/High-Accuracy-Electronics-Christopher-I-Daykin.pdf


    --
    piglet

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 17 12:40:01 2024
    On 6/16/24 23:20, JM wrote:
    On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 19:11:51 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:50:19 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written >>>>>>>>>>>> by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished >>>>>>>>>>>> monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
    interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0



    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power >>>>>>>>>> as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit >>>>>>>>>> current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at >>>>>>>>>> me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat >>>>>>>> energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that >>>>>>> thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT
    per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.  By mentioning a hot and cold resistor >>>>>> he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that >>>>>> the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you >>>>> want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right >>>> there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.


    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise voltage) which is actually required in the design process of a transducer/amplifier low S/N system.

    What does that mean? Do unconnected resistors get hot?

    A box of resistors could start a fire!

    And why would that occur. In thermal equilibrium there is no net transfer of energy either from or to the resistor (when averaged over any time interval of interest appropriate to the bandwidth of current electronic circuits).

    The so called resistor thermal "available noise power" KTB implies there is a net power delivery from a source to a load. In the case of maximum transfer the source must dissipate within itself exactly the same as it delivers to the load (due to
    having the same resistance). However if the so called load is at the same temperature as the source it also delivers KTB to the source and dissipates KTB within its own resistance. Thus there is no net transfer of energy between the two resistors in
    thermal equilibrium. If one is at a lower temperature than the other there will be a net transfer of energy, but this will be completely dwarfed in any practical system by the energy transferred due to thermal conductivity between the two resistors.

    So the power dissipated in a system of two equal value resistors is 4KTB. But this also holds if the two resistors have different values, including the situation where one of the resistors is a short or open circuit (i.e. leaving a single open or
    short circuit resistor). So it is entirely reasonable to state (as many engineers do) that the thermal noise power of a resistor is 4kTB.


    I've never seen it stated like that. It doesn't strike me as very
    useful to state it like that.

    It's very kind of you and of Chris too have made this text available
    for all, thank you. However, there is some work to be done to finish
    it. For example, in 3-5 5 "Noise matching transformers", it is stated
    that the noise resistance goes down with the root of N, the number of
    parallel transistors. That is not correct: It goes down with N.

    It is true that the noise voltage drops with sqrt(N), but the noise
    _current_ rises with sqrt(N). So Rn = Vn*sqrt(1/N)/(In*sqrt(N)) = Vn/(N*In).

    I also have an issue with the use of passive matching transformers
    for platinum resistance thermometers. This will obviously not work
    near DC.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From john larkin@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jun 17 07:09:12 2024
    On Sun, 16 Jun 2024 22:20:43 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 19:11:51 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:50:19 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written >>>>>>>>>>>> by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished >>>>>>>>>>>> monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
    interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0



    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power >>>>>>>>>> as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit >>>>>>>>>> current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at >>>>>>>>>> me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat >>>>>>>> energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that >>>>>>> thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT
    per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.  By mentioning a hot and cold resistor >>>>>> he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that >>>>>> the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you >>>>> want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right >>>>there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.




    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise voltage) which is actually required in the design process of a transducer/amplifier low S/N system.
    ===============================================



    What does that mean? Do unconnected resistors get hot?

    A box of resistors could start a fire!

    And why would that occur. In thermal equilibrium there is no net transfer of energy either from or to the resistor (when averaged over any time interval of interest appropriate to the bandwidth of current electronic circuits).

    The so called resistor thermal "available noise power" KTB implies there is a net power delivery from a source to a load. In the case of maximum transfer the source must dissipate within itself exactly the same as it delivers to the load (due to having
    the same resistance). However if the so called load is at the same temperature as the source it also delivers KTB to the source and dissipates KTB within its own resistance. Thus there is no net transfer of energy between the two resistors in thermal
    equilibrium. If one is at a lower temperature than the other there will be a net transfer of energy, but this will be completely dwarfed in any practical system by the energy transferred due to thermal conductivity between the two resistors.

    So the power dissipated in a system of two equal value resistors is 4KTB. But this also holds if the two resistors have different values, including the situation where one of the resistors is a short or open circuit (i.e. leaving a single open or short
    circuit resistor). So it is entirely reasonable to state (as many engineers do) that the thermal noise power of a resistor is 4kTB.

    If as stated "the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded
    resistor" is nonzero, a reel of 0805s is a fire hazard. What would
    noise power mean if it can't be extracted or dissipated or even
    measured?

    I'm now designing a signal generator that would be more sellable if it
    had lower voltage noise density. Given that I've got the noise as low
    as I can without cryogenics, around 8 nV/rtHz, the only thing left is
    to average multiple channels. Noise declines as the square root of
    applied dollars.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to john larkin on Mon Jun 17 14:36:07 2024
    john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 16 Jun 2024 22:20:43 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 19:11:51 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:50:19 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written >>>>>>>>>>>>> by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished >>>>>>>>>>>>> monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
    interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0




    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power >>>>>>>>>>> as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit >>>>>>>>>>> current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at >>>>>>>>>>> me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat
    energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that >>>>>>>> thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT
    per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.  By mentioning a hot and cold resistor >>>>>>> he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that >>>>>>> the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you >>>>>> want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right >>>>> there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.




    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated in
    an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise
    voltage) which is actually required in the design process of a
    transducer/amplifier low S/N system.
    ===============================================



    What does that mean? Do unconnected resistors get hot?

    A box of resistors could start a fire!

    And why would that occur. In thermal equilibrium there is no net
    transfer of energy either from or to the resistor (when averaged over
    any time interval of interest appropriate to the bandwidth of current
    electronic circuits).

    The so called resistor thermal "available noise power" KTB implies there
    is a net power delivery from a source to a load. In the case of maximum
    transfer the source must dissipate within itself exactly the same as it
    delivers to the load (due to having the same resistance). However if
    the so called load is at the same temperature as the source it also
    delivers KTB to the source and dissipates KTB within its own resistance.
    Thus there is no net transfer of energy between the two resistors in
    thermal equilibrium. If one is at a lower temperature than the other
    there will be a net transfer of energy, but this will be completely
    dwarfed in any practical system by the energy transferred due to thermal
    conductivity between the two resistors.

    So the power dissipated in a system of two equal value resistors is
    4KTB. But this also holds if the two resistors have different values,
    including the situation where one of the resistors is a short or open
    circuit (i.e. leaving a single open or short circuit resistor). So it
    is entirely reasonable to state (as many engineers do) that the thermal
    noise power of a resistor is 4kTB.

    If as stated "the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded
    resistor" is nonzero, a reel of 0805s is a fire hazard. What would
    noise power mean if it can't be extracted or dissipated or even
    measured?

    I'm now designing a signal generator that would be more sellable if it
    had lower voltage noise density. Given that I've got the noise as low
    as I can without cryogenics, around 8 nV/rtHz, the only thing left is
    to average multiple channels. Noise declines as the square root of
    applied dollars.



    If there are enough people willing to read Chris’s doc carefully, maybe we could put together an errata list so that John M. could issue a corrected version.

    That would probably make it more useful, and so a better memorial.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com on Tue Jun 18 23:32:40 2024
    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 17 Jun 2024 07:09:12 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 16 Jun 2024 22:20:43 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 19:11:51 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:50:19 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished >>>>>>>>>>>>>> monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
    interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0




    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power >>>>>>>>>>>> as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit >>>>>>>>>>>> current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at >>>>>>>>>>>> me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat
    energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that >>>>>>>>> thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT
    per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.ÿ By mentioning a hot and cold resistor >>>>>>>> he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that >>>>>>>> the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you >>>>>>> want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right >>>>>> there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.




    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated in >>>>> an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise
    voltage) which is actually required in the design process of a
    transducer/amplifier low S/N system.
    ===============================================



    What does that mean? Do unconnected resistors get hot?

    A box of resistors could start a fire!

    And why would that occur. In thermal equilibrium there is no net
    transfer of energy either from or to the resistor (when averaged over
    any time interval of interest appropriate to the bandwidth of current
    electronic circuits).

    The so called resistor thermal "available noise power" KTB implies
    there is a net power delivery from a source to a load. In the case of
    maximum transfer the source must dissipate within itself exactly the
    same as it delivers to the load (due to having the same resistance).
    However if the so called load is at the same temperature as the source
    it also delivers KTB to the source and dissipates KTB within its own
    resistance. Thus there is no net transfer of energy between the two
    resistors in thermal equilibrium. If one is at a lower temperature
    than the other there will be a net transfer of energy, but this will be
    completely dwarfed in any practical system by the energy transferred
    due to thermal conductivity between the two resistors.

    So the power dissipated in a system of two equal value resistors is
    4KTB. But this also holds if the two resistors have different values,
    including the situation where one of the resistors is a short or open
    circuit (i.e. leaving a single open or short circuit resistor). So it
    is entirely reasonable to state (as many engineers do) that the thermal
    noise power of a resistor is 4kTB.

    If as stated "the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded
    resistor" is nonzero, a reel of 0805s is a fire hazard. What would

    No taxation without representation
    No chilli without beans
    No fluctuation without dissipation

    Which one is true?

    No motion without perpetual, apparently. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    noise power mean if it can't be extracted or dissipated or even
    measured?

    I'm now designing a signal generator that would be more sellable if it
    had lower voltage noise density. Given that I've got the noise as low
    as I can without cryogenics, around 8 nV/rtHz, the only thing left is
    to average multiple channels. Noise declines as the square root of
    applied dollars.


    E

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Cursitor Doom@21:1/5 to Phil Hobbs on Wed Jun 19 17:41:16 2024
    On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 23:32:40 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 17 Jun 2024 07:09:12 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 16 Jun 2024 22:20:43 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 19:11:51 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:50:19 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfinished monographs (having started end of life care) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but there is plenty of interest to any analogue engineer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5- glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0




    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power >>>>>>>>>>>>> as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and
    short-circuit current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out >>>>>>>>>>>>> at me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times >>>>>>>>>>> the heat energy which would flow down the conductors from a >>>>>>>>>>> warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except >>>>>>>>>> that thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched >>>>>>>>>> load is kT per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.ÿ By mentioning a hot and cold >>>>>>>>> resistor he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to >>>>>>>>> cold, and that the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so >>>>>>>> if you want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and >>>>>>> right there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.




    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated
    in an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise >>>>>> voltage) which is actually required in the design process of a
    transducer/amplifier low S/N system.
    ===============================================



    What does that mean? Do unconnected resistors get hot?

    A box of resistors could start a fire!

    And why would that occur. In thermal equilibrium there is no net
    transfer of energy either from or to the resistor (when averaged over
    any time interval of interest appropriate to the bandwidth of current
    electronic circuits).

    The so called resistor thermal "available noise power" KTB implies
    there is a net power delivery from a source to a load. In the case
    of maximum transfer the source must dissipate within itself exactly
    the same as it delivers to the load (due to having the same
    resistance). However if the so called load is at the same temperature
    as the source it also delivers KTB to the source and dissipates KTB
    within its own resistance. Thus there is no net transfer of energy
    between the two resistors in thermal equilibrium. If one is at a
    lower temperature than the other there will be a net transfer of
    energy, but this will be completely dwarfed in any practical system
    by the energy transferred due to thermal conductivity between the two
    resistors.

    So the power dissipated in a system of two equal value resistors is
    4KTB. But this also holds if the two resistors have different
    values, including the situation where one of the resistors is a short
    or open circuit (i.e. leaving a single open or short circuit
    resistor). So it is entirely reasonable to state (as many engineers
    do) that the thermal noise power of a resistor is 4kTB.

    If as stated "the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded
    resistor" is nonzero, a reel of 0805s is a fire hazard. What would

    No taxation without representation No chilli without beans No
    fluctuation without dissipation

    Which one is true?

    No motion without perpetual, apparently. ;)

    No trolls without Australia.
    Actually, I thought your idea of correcting the document had much merit,
    Phil. You and the other big shots here can get down to the task. I'll make
    the tea and correct the spelling. :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Phil Hobbs@21:1/5 to Cursitor Doom on Wed Jun 19 16:47:56 2024
    On 2024-06-19 13:41, Cursitor Doom wrote:
    On Tue, 18 Jun 2024 23:32:40 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Mon, 17 Jun 2024 07:09:12 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 16 Jun 2024 22:20:43 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 19:11:51 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com>
    wrote:

    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:50:19 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metrology.

    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfinished monographs (having started end of life care) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but there is plenty of interest to any analogue engineer. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-
    glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0




    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and
    short-circuit current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times >>>>>>>>>>>> the heat energy which would flow down the conductors from a >>>>>>>>>>>> warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except >>>>>>>>>>> that thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched >>>>>>>>>>> load is kT per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.ÿ By mentioning a hot and cold >>>>>>>>>> resistor he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to >>>>>>>>>> cold, and that the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that. >>>>>>>>>
    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so >>>>>>>>> if you want to discuss it further, you could email it to me. >>>>>>>>>
    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and >>>>>>>> right there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.




    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated >>>>>>> in an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise >>>>>>> voltage) which is actually required in the design process of a
    transducer/amplifier low S/N system.
    ===============================================



    What does that mean? Do unconnected resistors get hot?

    A box of resistors could start a fire!

    And why would that occur. In thermal equilibrium there is no net
    transfer of energy either from or to the resistor (when averaged over >>>>> any time interval of interest appropriate to the bandwidth of current >>>>> electronic circuits).

    The so called resistor thermal "available noise power" KTB implies
    there is a net power delivery from a source to a load. In the case
    of maximum transfer the source must dissipate within itself exactly
    the same as it delivers to the load (due to having the same
    resistance). However if the so called load is at the same temperature >>>>> as the source it also delivers KTB to the source and dissipates KTB
    within its own resistance. Thus there is no net transfer of energy
    between the two resistors in thermal equilibrium. If one is at a
    lower temperature than the other there will be a net transfer of
    energy, but this will be completely dwarfed in any practical system
    by the energy transferred due to thermal conductivity between the two >>>>> resistors.

    So the power dissipated in a system of two equal value resistors is
    4KTB. But this also holds if the two resistors have different
    values, including the situation where one of the resistors is a short >>>>> or open circuit (i.e. leaving a single open or short circuit
    resistor). So it is entirely reasonable to state (as many engineers >>>>> do) that the thermal noise power of a resistor is 4kTB.

    If as stated "the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded
    resistor" is nonzero, a reel of 0805s is a fire hazard. What would

    No taxation without representation No chilli without beans No
    fluctuation without dissipation

    Which one is true?

    No motion without perpetual, apparently. ;)

    No trolls without Australia.
    Actually, I thought your idea of correcting the document had much merit, Phil. You and the other big shots here can get down to the task. I'll make the tea and correct the spelling. :-)

    If anybody's interested, sure.

    Of course John M has obviously never been to Texas, if he thinks that
    all chili has beans. ;)

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    --
    Dr Philip C D Hobbs
    Principal Consultant
    ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
    Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
    Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

    http://electrooptical.net
    http://hobbs-eo.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jeroen Belleman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jul 6 10:55:30 2024
    On 7/5/24 01:41, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 17 Jun 2024 12:40:01 +0200, Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

    On 6/16/24 23:20, JM wrote:
    On Tue, 11 Jun 2024 19:11:51 -0700, john larkin <jl@650pot.com> wrote:

    On Wed, 12 Jun 2024 02:50:19 +0100, JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 15:14:40 -0400, Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    On 2024-06-09 21:43, Phil Hobbs wrote:
    On 2024-06-09 20:55, JM wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jun 2024 00:29:17 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    JM <sunaecoNoSpam@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 18:09:24 -0000 (UTC), Phil Hobbs
    <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

    Jeroen Belleman <jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:
    On 6/9/24 19:02, ehsjr wrote:
    On 6/7/2024 9:14 PM, JM wrote:
    A collection of monographs on high accuracy electronics written >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by Mr.
    Chris Daykin, following his career predominantly in metrology. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Unfortunately Chris will be unable to complete the unfinished >>>>>>>>>>>>>> monographs (having started end of life care) but there is plenty of
    interest to any analogue engineer.

    https://1drv.ms/b/c/1af24d72a509cd48/EZhO_rP5-glDmxtc4ZHycvYBhrsqmyC5tuZjt2NFFsS0gQ?e=Wq2Yj0



    Thanks!
    Ed

    I have an issue with his definition of resistor noise power >>>>>>>>>>>> as the product of open-circuit noise voltage and short-circuit >>>>>>>>>>>> current. That makes no sense.

    There's more than that, probably, but that just jumped out at >>>>>>>>>>>> me.

    Jeroen Belleman


    It?s four times too high, for a start.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs

    "It is shown elsewhere [1] that the noise power is four times the heat
    energy which would flow down the conductors
    from a warm source resistor to a matching cold resistor."


    Which, if true, would solve all our energy problems, except that >>>>>>>>> thermodynamic systems would all be unstable.

    The thermal noise power produced by a resistor into a matched load is kT
    per hertz.


    Sure, which is what he states.  By mentioning a hot and cold resistor >>>>>>>> he makes it clear that net energy flow is from hot to cold, and that >>>>>>>> the T refers to the hot source.

    But apparently he says that it's four times larger than that.

    I'm not making a microsoft account just to download the PDF, so if you >>>>>>> want to discuss it further, you could email it to me.

    Cheers

    Phil Hobbs



    Bill was kind enough to send me a copy (thanks again, Bill), and right >>>>>> there on P. 374, the author says,

    Pn = 4kTB

    which is a factor of four too high.


    No it isn't. He is calculating the thermal noise power dissipated in an unloaded resistor - something (or at least the related noise voltage) which is actually required in the design process of a transducer/amplifier low S/N system.

    What does that mean? Do unconnected resistors get hot?

    A box of resistors could start a fire!

    And why would that occur. In thermal equilibrium there is no net transfer of energy either from or to the resistor (when averaged over any time interval of interest appropriate to the bandwidth of current electronic circuits).

    The so called resistor thermal "available noise power" KTB implies there is a net power delivery from a source to a load. In the case of maximum transfer the source must dissipate within itself exactly the same as it delivers to the load (due to
    having the same resistance). However if the so called load is at the same temperature as the source it also delivers KTB to the source and dissipates KTB within its own resistance. Thus there is no net transfer of energy between the two resistors in
    thermal equilibrium. If one is at a lower temperature than the other there will be a net transfer of energy, but this will be completely dwarfed in any practical system by the energy transferred due to thermal conductivity between the two resistors.

    So the power dissipated in a system of two equal value resistors is 4KTB. But this also holds if the two resistors have different values, including the situation where one of the resistors is a short or open circuit (i.e. leaving a single open or
    short circuit resistor). So it is entirely reasonable to state (as many engineers do) that the thermal noise power of a resistor is 4kTB.


    I've never seen it stated like that. It doesn't strike me as very
    useful to state it like that.

    It's very kind of you and of Chris too have made this text available
    for all, thank you. However, there is some work to be done to finish
    it. For example, in 3-5 5 "Noise matching transformers", it is stated

    You're lucky it's not one of my drafts, in which case there would be typos on every line!

    that the noise resistance goes down with the root of N, the number of
    parallel transistors. That is not correct: It goes down with N.

    It is true that the noise voltage drops with sqrt(N), but the noise
    _current_ rises with sqrt(N). So Rn = Vn*sqrt(1/N)/(In*sqrt(N)) =
    Vn/(N*In).

    I also have an issue with the use of passive matching transformers
    for platinum resistance thermometers. This will obviously not work
    near DC.

    You're not seeing the wood for the trees.

    Daykin's industrial experience was gained at ASL whose primary products were thermometry bridges. They
    had a resolution of about a mK. To achieve this the resistance thermometers are part of an ac bridge (the other
    leg being a ratio transformer) followed by a synchronous detector.

    These monographs all basically discuss the electronics used in these bridges.



    Jeroen Belleman

    An AC bridge. That wasn't mentioned in that section, but yes, that
    would work. That's another suggestion for improving the text then.

    Jeroen Belleman

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)